1600 replies to this topic

[Arturo]

I splitted the thread, for the (n+1)th time ^^

Edited by Arturo, 30 January 2008 - 10:02 AM.

[Jumbie]

Just to make sure, is one of the parts you're working on this one?

That's becoming pretty important as it seems to contradict Ganon's statement that he drew power from the hatred of the Twili. Either the hatred of the Twili has actually come to him from past generations, or the two are speaking in a different context.

Well, Zant is a Twili, and, for all we know, the only one of them who's filled with hate. So Ganondorf is right when he says he drew power from the hatred of the Twili - namely from Zant. Why else would Ganon choose Zant to dwell in, if the latter hadn't been Ganon's main provider of power?

So, I'm working on that passage, but for now I bring you the history of the Twili. Midna reveals this to Link as they enter the Gerudo Desert:

・・・精霊が言ってた影の結晶石にまつわる話を覚えているか？
?Do you remember the spirit's speech about the Crystal Stone of Shadow?
?Do you remember what the spirit said about the Fused Shadows?

魔力で聖地を治めようとした者達はその後・・・どうなったと思う？
After those people tried to rule the Sacred Realm with magic? what do you think became of them?
What do you think happened to the magic wielders who tried to rule the Sacred Realm?

聖地ハイラルを追われ神によって、ある場所に追いやられたのさ
Chased by the Gods across the Sacred Realm Hyrule, they were thrust aside to some place.
They were banished. They were chased across the sacred lands of Hyrule and driven into another realm by the goddesses.

そこは、日の光輝くハイラルとは　対極を成す もうひとつの世界
It was another world, the antithesis of Hyrule where the sunlight shines.
It was another world entirely... The antithesis of Hyrule, where the sun shines bright.

光とは　決して　交わることは　できない　影と呼ばれる領域
Since that territory could never mingle with the light, it was referred to as Shadow.
Its denizens became shadows that could not mingle with the light.

そして、影の世界へ落とされた者達は　元の世界に戻ることは許されず・・・
And the people who were dumped into the Shadow World were not permitted to return to the original world?
Eventually, most came to call it the Twilight Realm, and from it, none could return to the world of light...

ハイラルの影として永遠に　陰りの中で生きるように　なったそうだ・・・
They were forever doomed to live as shadows of Hyrule inmidst the gloom?
They were forever doomed to live in the twilight, flitting in the half-light of dusk, mere shadows of Hyrule...

これは、ワタシ達に伝わる　我が影の一族の歴史・・・
This is the history of us, the Shadow Clan, as it has been passed down to us.
This is the history of the Twili as it has been passed down from our ancestors...

ワタシが何者なのか　わかっただろ？
Do you now understand what I am?
Do you now understand what I am?

光の世界から影の世界に落とされた一族の末[?]なのさ
I'm a descendant of the clan that was dumped from the Light World to the Shadow World.
I'm a descendant of the tribe that was banished to the Twilight Realm!

しかし、その影の世界はザントによって支配され、一族はあの影の魔物に変えられた
However, the Shadow World came to be controlled by Zant, and the clan was transformed into those shadow beasts.
It was a peaceful place...until Zant took control of the Twilight Realm and transformed all of the Twili into shadow beasts.

ヤツはいつの間にか　一族の力とは違う　巨大な魔力を持ち
He had unnoticedly gained an enormous magic different from the clan's power.
It's clear to me now that he somehow gained a great evil power previously unknown to our tribe...

影の世界へは、ヤツの力が無ければ　入ることは　できなくなった
I could no longer get into the Shadow World without his power.
In any case, I was sent from there, and could no longer get into the Twilight Realm without his power.

しかし、一族の言い伝えの中に　こんな話が　あるんだ
But there's another tale passed on by the clan.
...But there's another tale told by my people.

神は、一族が元の世界に戻ることを禁じたが　光と影を繋ぐ鍵を　１つだけ残したという
Though the gods forbade the clan to return to the original world, they left one single key connecting light and shadow, as is told.
Though the goddesses forbade us to return to the world of light, they left one link between the light and the darkness.

それは陰りの鏡と呼ばれ　ハイラルを守る者達に託したと・・・
Something called the Mirror of Gloom was entrusted to the protectors of Hyrule?
Something called the Mirror of Twilight was passed to the protectors of Hyrule?

ヤツは、必ず影の世界にいる
As for HIM, he most certainly is in the Shadow World.
It's our only path to the Twilight Realm...and we must get there!

一緒に・・・行ってくれないか？
Together? we'll go, won't we?
You'll come with me...won't you?

Notes:

- I'll leave it to everyone's interpretation what could be meant with "Chased by the Gods across the Sacred Realm Hyrule". Sounds highly odd, but I'm confident that here Hyrule is equalled with the Sacred Realm - adding a possessive "of" wouldn't be true to the meaning. NoA must have been just as puzzled, that's why they decided to completely hide mention of the Sacred Realm in this particular sentence by translating it as "the sacred lands of Hyrule". That isn't wrong per se, but the fact remains that Japanese in both instances puts 聖地, so for them there's no visible difference whatsoever. Furthermore, it has happened the other way around (in Lanayru's vision) where some European translators turned 聖地 into "sacred places" while NoA correctly put "Sacred Realm". I think this suffices to show that Sacred Realm should remain the only translation for 聖地 (at least in Zelda).

- The next difference isn't minor either. NoA turned "that territory" into "its denizens", whom they further described as shadows although the sentence really wanted to say that the territory was called Shadow. Nowhere is it stated that the Twili cannot mingle with the light.
The next sentence goes on to explain that the Twili were forbidden to leave, but NoA worded this highly ambiguous, if you keep in mind their previous mistranslated sentence.

- Then Japanese, too, speaks of the Twili as shadows, although in a strictly figurative sense - just like OoT did with the Sheikah, the "shadows of the Hylians" (notice a parallel there?). NoA is figurative as well, but two sentences before they didn't seem to be.

- The name Twili doesn't exist in Japanese. They're just the Shadow Clan, named after their new homeworld.

- Strangely, Midna doesn't mention that she was expelled from her realm. But of course the visuals make this clear.

- The mirror is called a key, showing that it acts as an opener of the portal. Actually, opening portals is what all mirrors in Zelda do.

- Finally, Midna says that Zant waits in the Shadow World, which NoA ignores for the same reason that Japanese ignored Midna's banishment: none.


Now, since I mentioned the Sheikah and there's debating about FSA in the Mirror thread, here's a summary of

The obscure tribes:
ALttP: 魔族 Demon Tribe (NoA: Tribe of Evil)
OoT: 闇の民族 Race of Darkness (NoA: Shadow Folk)
FSA: 闇の一族 Clan of Darkness (NoA: Dark Tribe)
TP: 影の一族 Clan of Shadow (NoA: Twili)

The Demon Tribe has nothing to do with the other three, as it refers to the gang of Ganon the Demon King.
But the nickname of OoT's Sheikah resembles the Dark Clan of FSA, which in turn resembles the name of the Twili in TP. This might suggest that the Sheikah are somehow related to the Twili, and more importantly, that the Dark Clan in FSA were indeed the Twili.

[Nameless_Joe]

Thanks for the translation, Jumbie! (I meant to thank you sooner, but my ISP crapped out on me )


BTW, I meant to say 'Sky Beings'. 'Oocca' was the only name I could think of at the time, though. *smacks head*

[Raien]

Well, Zant is a Twili, and, for all we know, the only one of them who's filled with hate. So Ganondorf is right when he says he drew power from the hatred of the Twili - namely from Zant. Why else would Ganon choose Zant to dwell in, if the latter hadn't been Ganon's main provider of power?

Although Ganondorf certainly manipulated Zant's malice to make Zant serve him, to say that Zant is the source of Ganondorf's power is, in my opinion, an incorrect interpretation. Not only does Ganondorf refer to the Twili as a whole (which he would not do if Zant was specifically that enabler), but he refers to an "awakening" and subsequent empowerment. The only time we see this description is during the execution scene, when the Triforce of Power glows, Ganondorf awakens and becomes powerful enough to break the chains holding him. Now given that Rusl reflected upon lingering spirits of regret in the Twilight Realm at the beginning of the game, which clearly were the Twili's ancestors that were sealed away (because the Twili had lost their regret by that point), I think it makes more sense that the malice of these spirits were responsible for Ganondorf's empowerment. Surrounded by the Arbiter's Grounds, the evil-filled Twilight Mirror and the Twilight Realm, Ganondorf was fully exposed to malice, and this is what empowered him.

I'll leave it to everyone's interpretation what could be meant with "Chased by the Gods across the Sacred Realm Hyrule". Sounds highly odd, but I'm confident that here Hyrule is equalled with the Sacred Realm - adding a possessive "of" wouldn't be true to the meaning. NoA must have been just as puzzled, that's why they decided to completely hide mention of the Sacred Realm in this particular sentence by translating it as "the sacred lands of Hyrule". That isn't wrong per se, but the fact remains that Japanese in both instances puts 聖地, so for them there's no visible difference whatsoever. Furthermore, it has happened the other way around (in Lanayru's vision) where some European translators turned 聖地 into "sacred places" while NoA correctly put "Sacred Realm". I think this suffices to show that Sacred Realm should remain the only translation for 聖地 (at least in Zelda).

If people were able to get into the Sacred Realm, what became of the Triforce, I wonder?

The next difference isn't minor either. NoA turned "that territory" into "its denizens", whom they further described as shadows although the sentence really wanted to say that the territory was called Shadow. Nowhere is it stated that the Twili cannot mingle with the light.

Then Japanese, too, speaks of the Twili as shadows, although in a strictly figurative sense - just like OoT did with the Sheikah, the "shadows of the Hylians" (notice a parallel there?). NoA is figurative as well, but two sentences before they didn't seem to be.

I think NOA made the assumption based on how Midna would hide in Link's shadow in the Light World, at then when she was exposed to Light Magic by Zant, she soon began to die. In fact, if you look at the shadow of Link's wolf form at the point Midna returns him to Ordon Village, you can see Midna on Wolf Link's back even though she is not sitting on the real Wolf Link's back. It's not wrong to refer to the Twili as shadows, even if the translation is not identical to the Japanese script.

The Demon Tribe has nothing to do with the other three, as it refers to the gang of Ganon the Demon King.
But the nickname of OoT's Sheikah resembles the Dark Clan of FSA, which in turn resembles the name of the Twili in TP. This might suggest that the Sheikah are somehow related to the Twili, and more importantly, that the Dark Clan in FSA were indeed the Twili.

I disagree with this inference for two reasons:
1) As far as we are told, all the members of the Dark Tribe were sealed away into the Twilight Realm as punishment for their actions.
2) As far as we are told, the Sheikah don't have a history of evil; all their actions have been to seal Hyrule's evil away in the Shadow Temple and to fight against evil for the Hylian Royal Family.

Edited by jhurvid, 31 January 2008 - 07:40 AM.

[Prime Blue]

On a totally unrelated note:

Does anyone know what the "デグ/degu" in enemy names throughout the series alludes to? I've seen it translated as "giant", used in giant versions of normal enemies, though I don't know if that's an official translation. Anyways, I just like to know where the term comes from as I don't think it's a real Japanese word.

[LionHarted]

jhurvid: I think it's fairly clear that TP does indeed present that the shadow clan entered the Sacred Realm by the imagery seen in the storytelling scene.

[Raien]

jhurvid: I think it's fairly clear that TP does indeed present that the shadow clan entered the Sacred Realm by the imagery seen in the storytelling scene.

Indeed it did, but I chose to see this as vague symbolism because I could never fathom what happened to the Triforce. But come to think of it, perhaps the Dark Tribe's King took it, which would explain why he was killed when the rest of the Dark Tribe was sealed away.

EDIT: Just looked back through this topic and I've discovered the Dark Tribe's King was an NOA mistranslation. So who did take the Triforce? How was it recovered?

Edited by jhurvid, 01 February 2008 - 09:02 AM.

[Jumbie]

Although Ganondorf certainly manipulated Zant's malice to make Zant serve him, to say that Zant is the source of Ganondorf's power is, in my opinion, an incorrect interpretation. Not only does Ganondorf refer to the Twili as a whole (which he would not do if Zant was specifically that enabler), but he refers to an "awakening" and subsequent empowerment.

At the point when Ganondorf talks to Midna, he doesn't give a damn about Zant anymore, avoiding any mention of him. Who knows, probably he never even asked him his name in the first place. In Japanese he doesn't even say "I shall house my power in you", but "I shall house my power in that body". Quite ignorant, isn't he? Consequentially, Ganondorf makes the whole Twili clan responsible for reviving him.

Moreover, Zant implies he was the only Twili that was still able to feel anger. Midna explains why: the serene Twilight has a soothing effect on its inhabitants. But since Ganondorf says, "Your agony was the nourishment for my flesh and blood. The hatred turned into power, and awakened me", I'll admit that the other Twili may have added with their regret while it was only the wrath of Zant that finally awakened Ganondorf.

The only time we see this description is during the execution scene, when the Triforce of Power glows, Ganondorf awakens and becomes powerful enough to break the chains holding him. Now given that Rusl reflected upon lingering spirits of regret in the Twilight Realm at the beginning of the game, which clearly were the Twili's ancestors that were sealed away (because the Twili had lost their regret by that point), I think it makes more sense that the malice of these spirits were responsible for Ganondorf's empowerment. Surrounded by the Arbiter's Grounds, the evil-filled Twilight Mirror and the Twilight Realm, Ganondorf was fully exposed to malice, and this is what empowered him.

I'm opposed to that theory. Ganondorf didn't require any empowering or awakening by outside malice during his execution. The Triforce of Power was doing that job just fine, so I don't see where you're coming from.
The awakening he speaks of occurs centuries later in the Shadow World, when Zant is throwing his fit. Ganon manifests as a ball of fire as soon as he has soaked up enough of Zant's wrath.
Why should there be malicious spirits left in Hyrule when they were all banished to the Shadow World?

Btw, it's not true that the Twili had lost their regret. Midna herself remained regretful up until a good portion into the game, as she admits before entering the Shadow World, and numerous earlier quotes of her show envy or carelessness towards Hyrule.

If people were able to get into the Sacred Realm, what became of the Triforce, I wonder?

We don't know for how long people could freely enter the Sacred Realm, but from Rauru we know that there definitely was such a time - until they built the Temple of Time. In ALttP it's said that the Light and Dark Worlds are the two sides of Hyrule, and in Japanese worldview everything has these two sides (like yin and yang). So when the Dark World was still the Sacred Realm, Hyrule was divided into Light World and Sacred Realm - but calling it Light World made no sense yet without a dark opposite, so the Light World was simply known as Hyrule, and calling the Sacred Realm not a part of Hyrule would've been discriminating. Therefore it was all just known as the Sacred Realm Hyrule, and the Sacred Realm was "somewhere in Hyrule", as ALttP puts it. That might be why the terminology was so blurry ever before the Dark World was created (in OoT's adult half). I dunno, that's the only way I can make sense of those "Sacred Realm Hyrule" wordings (occurs at least three times in TP)...

Just looked back through this topic and I've discovered the Dark Tribe's King was an NOA mistranslation. So who did take the Triforce? How was it recovered?

No one took it. The Light Spirits appeared and prevented the Shadow Clan from grabbing the Triforce, which is the point of Lanayru's story.

Does anyone know what the "デグ/degu" in enemy names throughout the series alludes to? I've seen it translated as "giant", used in giant versions of normal enemies, though I don't know if that's an official translation. Anyways, I just like to know where the term comes from as I don't think it's a real Japanese word.

Dunno. I agree that it's not real Japanese.

[LionHarted]

I'm opposed to that theory. Ganondorf didn't require any empowering or awakening by outside malice during his execution. The Triforce of Power was doing that job just fine, so I don't see where you're coming from.
The awakening he speaks of occurs centuries later in the Shadow World, when Zant is throwing his fit. Ganon manifests as a ball of fire as soon as he has soaked up enough of Zant's wrath.
Why should there be malicious spirits left in Hyrule when they were all banished to the Shadow World?

1) The Triforce of Power is that which awakens. Why does it awaken then?
2) I call interpretation. Nothing specifically indicates any increase in Ganondorf's power at that point; the activation of the Triforce of Power and his stoppage of death during his execution, on the other hand, suffices to serve as an example.
3) Because they're running all over the Arbiter's Grounds?

[MikePetersSucks]

1) The Triforce of Power is that which awakens. Why does it awaken then?

There's no certainty it's actually awakening. Maybe it's been awakened for some time, and Ganondorf was just saving it for a good mind-fuck, or maybe it was the only way he could get close enough to the Sages so he could try and kill them.

[Raien]

At the point when Ganondorf talks to Midna, he doesn't give a damn about Zant anymore, avoiding any mention of him. Who knows, probably he never even asked him his name in the first place. In Japanese he doesn't even say "I shall house my power in you", but "I shall house my power in that body". Quite ignorant, isn't he? Consequentially, Ganondorf makes the whole Twili clan responsible for reviving him.

Whatever importance Ganondorf places on Zant, it doesn't place Ganondorf's sentence about the tribe into the context of one individual member. If Ganondorf was talking about the Hyrulian Royal Family, he wouldn't be specifically referring to Zelda. It doesn't work that way.

Moreover, Zant implies he was the only Twili that was still able to feel anger. Midna explains why: the serene Twilight has a soothing effect on its inhabitants. But since Ganondorf says, "Your agony was the nourishment for my flesh and blood. The hatred turned into power, and awakened me", I'll admit that the other Twili may have added with their regret while it was only the wrath of Zant that finally awakened Ganondorf.

Zant was the only member of the current Twili to still feel malice, but the lingering spirits of the Twili's ancestors, who are obviously of the same clan, still possessed malice that could empower Ganondorf.

And to answer a question you made further down, according to Japanese fairytale stories (and recent horror stories, like The Grudge), spirits are actually strong emotions that linger in this world after the people who possessed them have died. Thus, spirits of malice and regret linger on in both the Twilight Realm and the Arbiter's Grounds. Rusl referred to these spirits at the beginning of the game, and Auru referred to them above the watch tower.

I'm opposed to that theory. Ganondorf didn't require any empowering or awakening by outside malice during his execution. The Triforce of Power was doing that job just fine, so I don't see where you're coming from.

The point is that there is no scene in which we see an awakening and empowerment, other than the execution scene. The Triforce of Power clearly played a part in that scene as well, but that doesn't mean it overwrites the importance of malice.

The awakening he speaks of occurs centuries later in the Shadow World, when Zant is throwing his fit. Ganon manifests as a ball of fire as soon as he has soaked up enough of Zant's wrath.

Hmm... It is very possible that the malice of Zant AND the malice of the Twili's ancestors in the realm both contributed to another unseen "awakening". That would certainly put everything into context.

Btw, it's not true that the Twili had lost their regret. Midna herself remained regretful up until a good portion into the game, as she admits before entering the Shadow World, and numerous earlier quotes of her show envy or carelessness towards Hyrule.

Midna has her own personal regrets, but they are not the same regret that the Twili's ancestors had when they were sealed in the Twilight Realm. And for the record, Zant said that the Twili had lost regret, so it's a key part of the story.

No one took it. The Light Spirits appeared and prevented the Shadow Clan from grabbing the Triforce, which is the point of Lanayru's story.

That's a good possibility. It's just the way that the Dark Tribe stand in front of the Triforce suggests that they had control over it.

Edited by jhurvid, 02 February 2008 - 03:25 PM.

[Jumbie]

1) The Triforce of Power is that which awakens. Why does it awaken then?

I won't answer that. jhurvid and me are referring to Ganondorf's quote, "The hatred turned into power, and awakened me". So, did the hatred actually turn into the Triforce of Power..?

2) I call interpretation. Nothing specifically indicates any increase in Ganondorf's power at that point; the activation of the Triforce of Power and his stoppage of death during his execution, on the other hand, suffices to serve as an example.

Ganondorf himself never speaks about his execution, only about his time as a powerless spirit in the Shadow World (where the Twilis' emotions were actually able to have some influence on him). Claiming that Ganondorf owes his surviving the execution to the Twilis' ancestors is ridiculous, given that the involvement of the Triforce of Power has absolutely nothing to do with the malice lingering at Arbiter's Grounds.

3) Because they're running all over the Arbiter's Grounds?

None of the undead dungeon inmates (Poes, Gobera, Stallord..) have any implied connection to the Twilis' ancestors. They just were convicts at the same place where the Mirror of Gloom was used for banishing the Twilis' ancestors. Have a look at the manifold executing devices in the dungeon rooms - they sure were put to use, seeing as we met their undead victims on location. It's rash to think the Mirror Chamber was the most frequently used execution place at Arbiter's Grounds, as we only have evidence of one such incident. And Auru's quote is inconclusive, as I already explained.

Whatever importance Ganondorf places on Zant, it doesn't place Ganondorf's sentence about the tribe into the context of one individual member. If Ganondorf was talking about the Hyrulian Royal Family, he wouldn't be specifically referring to Zelda. It doesn't work that way.

Why couldn't he? That would be totum pro parte, a common lyrical device. Ganondorf can use the Twili clan as a synecdoche for Zant. He demonstrated in TWW how poetic he can be

Zant was the only member of the current Twili to still feel malice, but the lingering spirits of the Twili's ancestors, who are obviously of the same clan, still possessed malice that could empower Ganondorf.

And to answer a question you made further down, according to Japanese fairytale stories (and recent horror stories, like The Grudge), spirits are actually strong emotions that linger in this world after the people who possessed them have died. Thus, spirits of malice and regret linger on in both the Twilight Realm and the Arbiter's Grounds. Rusl referred to these spirits at the beginning of the game, and Auru referred to them above the watch tower.

Oh, I didn't have that definition of spirit in mind. That may be possible, yes.

The point is that there is no scene in which we see an awakening and empowerment, other than the execution scene.

Did you consider that maybe we see no scene of that because Ganondorf's words substitute such a cutscene?

The Triforce of Power clearly played a part in that scene as well, but that doesn't mean it overwrites the importance of malice.

When the execution cutscene was shown to us, all emphasis was put on the Triforce of Power, the Sages didn't speak of the lingering malice at all. I doubt that Ganondorf's speech was a late explanation for the execution cutscene. After all, the part of the plot which still needed to be explained near the end of the game was how Ganondorf managed to escape from the Shadow World to the Light World, and that's exactly what he personally does before the boss fight.

Midna has her own personal regrets, but they are not the same regret that the Twili's ancestors had when they were sealed in the Twilight Realm.

You're right in that they differ, she doesn't wish for dominion over Hyrule anymore but for the same freedom and convenience that Hyrule offers. Ganondorf, however, doesn't care what incentive was behind those regrets, to him it's sufficient to know that their nourishing effect is the same.
And in fact, the regrets of the present-day Twili are a direct development of the regrets of their ancestors.

And for the record, Zant said that the Twili had lost regret, so it's a key part of the story.

Are you sure? They lost anger, hate, and desire, but not regret.

That's a good possibility. It's just the way that the Dark Tribe stand in front of the Triforce suggests that they had control over it.

They're standing close to the Triforce - which they also did in reality -, but they're not holding it...

[Raien]

Why couldn't he? That would be totum pro parte, a common lyrical device. Ganondorf can use the Twili clan as a synecdoche for Zant. He demonstrated in TWW how poetic he can be

It's common if a tribe all do think alike, but Zant belongs to a tribe that doesn't think like him. Zant is unique when compared to the Twili, so Zant's malice cannot represent the Twili. But on the other hand, Ganondorf refers to the tribe's original evil power and sealing and leads into the "awakening/empowerment" phrase from that. If Ganondorf was referring to the original Dark Tribe who were sealed away by the goddesses, then his empowerment would have to come from their spirits, because the current tribe have long since left their hatred behind.

You're right in that they differ, she doesn't wish for dominion over Hyrule anymore but for the same freedom and convenience that Hyrule offers. Ganondorf, however, doesn't care what incentive was behind those regrets, to him it's sufficient to know that their nourishing effect is the same.
And in fact, the regrets of the present-day Twili are a direct development of the regrets of their ancestors.

Reading the script again, Ganondorf says:

Your agony was the nourishment for my flesh and blood. The hatred turned into power, and awakened me.

Ganondorf is actively connecting their "agony" with their "hatred", which tells us that the regret that the Twili now possess in reflection of their ancestors' evil deeds is not what Ganondorf was referring to. But when the Twili's ancestors were first sealed in the Twilight Realm, we know that they did feel anguish and hatred upon being trapped inside. It makes much more sense in context that Ganondorf was referring to the lingering spirits of those people.

Are you sure? They lost anger, hate, and desire, but not regret.

My bad. It's probably more correct to say they began regretting their ancestors' evil deeds after their malice faded away.

Did you consider that maybe we see no scene of that because Ganondorf's words substitute such a cutscene?

When the execution cutscene was shown to us, all emphasis was put on the Triforce of Power, the Sages didn't speak of the lingering malice at all. I doubt that Ganondorf's speech was a late explanation for the execution cutscene. After all, the part of the plot which still needed to be explained near the end of the game was how Ganondorf managed to escape from the Shadow World to the Light World, and that's exactly what he personally does before the boss fight.

I can agree with both of those points, which is why as I said earlier, it would make a lot of sense that Ganondorf was empowered by Zant and the spirits of the Twili's ancestors together. That way we wouldn't have to sacrifice the context of Ganondorf's script.

Edited by jhurvid, 02 February 2008 - 07:35 PM.

[LionHarted]

I won't answer that. jhurvid and me are referring to Ganondorf's quote, "The hatred turned into power, and awakened me". So, did the hatred actually turn into the Triforce of Power..?

I compare the "awakening" there to his parallel "awakening" in the Adult Timeline, when he turns into Ganon at the point of his would-be-death.

He had the Triforce of Power already, but was weakened. Malice made him strong again (in this case, the lingering malice that empowered evil spirits at the Arbiter's Grounds).

Ganondorf himself never speaks about his execution, only about his time as a powerless spirit in the Shadow World (where the Twilis' emotions were actually able to have some influence on him). Claiming that Ganondorf owes his surviving the execution to the Twilis' ancestors is ridiculous, given that the involvement of the Triforce of Power has absolutely nothing to do with the malice lingering at Arbiter's Grounds.

Ganondorf is very non-specific about what he is speaking.

He simply references the Twili as weak, but still able to play a role in his "awakening", which we viewed during the cutscene.

His references to the Twili don't necessarily mean that he was in the Shadow Realm at the time.

There is no need for there to be reference to lingering Twili malice and Twili malice that empowered Ganondorf in the same narrative unless they are the same.

[Raien]

I compare the "awakening" there to his parallel "awakening" in the Adult Timeline, when he turns into Ganon at the point of his would-be-death.

He had the Triforce of Power already, but was weakened. Malice made him strong again (in this case, the lingering malice that empowered evil spirits at the Arbiter's Grounds).

That is an excellent comparison. Evil empowers evil, as a rule in the Zelda series.

[Jumbie]

I can agree with both of those points, which is why as I said earlier, it would make a lot of sense that Ganondorf was empowered by Zant and the spirits of the Twili's ancestors together. That way we wouldn't have to sacrifice the context of Ganondorf's script.

Agreed, that's a deal.
Yours doesn't convince me though, LionHarted.
I guess we can leave the debate at that, to spare this thread another split. Tomorrow I'll likely post a translated part of FSA!

[Jumbie]

Well, it's not exactly tomorrow after all, more like a week later, but.. at least I was right in that it's a part of FSA, and not something else ^^;

I just looked at the FSA text dump and noticed that the intro story in the game is very similar to the manual. Most of the wording is different, but hopefully it's actually just a different translation of the same Japanese text, or at least something similar. So if you can translate the entire introduction to FSA, talking about the history of Vaati and the Four Sword, it should be enough.

It's true, while the backstory in FSA's Japanese version uses the exact same words both in-game and in the manual, for the American version there were made two entirely separate translations (hmm, job-creation measures?!). For this reason, I will this time present two lines of NoA text for each Japanese line, red for in-game and orange for manual.

Maybe the whole beginning up until drawing the Four Sword would be useful for that purpose

Is on the to-do list.

But now, enjoy The Legend of the Four Sword:

その昔ハイラルという国に　グフーという風の魔神があらわれ　美しい娘を次々とさらっていきました
Long ago in a country called Hyrule, a wind demon named Gufuu appeared and began kidnapping beautiful maidens, one after another.
Long ago, in the kingdom of Hyrule, a wind sorcerer named Vaati appeared. Vaati terrorized the people of Hyrule and kidnapped many beautiful girls from their homes.
Long ago in the inner reaches of Hyrule, an evil wind sorcerer known as Vaati began kidnapping beautiful maidens, one after another.

人々が困り果てていると　そこへ一本の剣をたずさえた　旅の勇者があらわれました
When the people had fallen into despair, there appeared a hero in travels who carried only a single sword.
When all hope seemed lost, a young boy carrying little more than a sword appeared.
Nobody could stop Vaati, and the people of Hyrule despaired. Then, a brave young wanderer carrying only a single sword appeared.

勇者が剣をぬくと体が4つに分かれ　力を合わせて　グフーを退治したといいます
It is said that when the hero drew his sword, his body split into four, and uniting their powers they exterminated Gufuu.
According to the legends, when the boy drew his sword, he split into four, the four-who-are-one worked together to vanquish Vaati.
When the young lad took out his sword, he split into four separate beings. The legends say that these four beings worked as one and defeated Vaati.

その後　勇者がグフーを封印した剣は　フォーソードと名付けられ　ハイラルの奥地　聖域に　ひっそりと　まつられていました
Afterwards, the sword in which the hero had sealed Gufuu was christened the Four Sword, and was quietly enshrined in the Sacred Precincts in Hyrule's hinterland.
The hero used his sword to bind Vaati in a remote area of Hyrule. The people christened the blade the Four Sword and built a shrine around it. There it remained undisturbed for many years.
The wanderer, united once again, imprisoned Vaati deep in Hyrule and sealed the prison with his own sword. This place became known as the Realm of the Four Sword.

長い時が流れ???
A long time passed???
Ages flowed by...
After that, a long time passed.

風の魔神グフーは　フォーソードの封印をやぶって復活し　ハイラル国の王女ゼルダ姫を　さらってしまいました
The wind demon Gufuu resurrected overcoming the Four Sword's seal, and kidnapped the princess of the country of Hyrule, Princess Zelda.
The wind sorcerer Vaati broke free of his prison and kidnapped Zelda, the princess of Hyrule.
Then, the wind sorcerer Vaati broke out of his prison and then snatched Princess Zelda of Hyrule.

ゼルダ姫と幼なじみの少年リンクは　フォーソードの不思議な力を借りて　はげしい戦いの末　再びグフーを封印することに成功しました
Princess Zelda's childhood friend, the boy Link, borrowed the mysterious power of the Four Sword, and at the end of a furious battle, he succeeded in sealing Gufuu away once again.
Princess Zelda's childhood friend Link used the power of the Four Sword to defeat Vaati and seal him away once again.
Zelda's childhood friend, a young boy named Link, claimed the strange power of the Four Sword and fought Vaati fiercely. In the end, he succeeded in sealing Vaati away once again.

こうして　ハイラルは　再び平和を取り戻したと　だれもが思いました。ところが???
And so, peace was restored to Hyrule once again, or so everyone thought. However???
And, for a time, the people of Hyrule believed that their land was safe. Until...
And so, peace was restored to Hyrule once again. Or so everyone thought...

Notes:
- Vaati is called Gufuu in Japan, which means tornado. The name Vaati was apparently inspired by the eponymous wind dukes in Dungeons & Dragons.
- In Vaati's description as a wind demon, the Japanese for demon here is "majin". The end boss of PH is described as a majin as well.
- Japanese actually identifies the boy carrying the Four Sword as a hero in travels.
- It says the hero exterminated Vaati, which is a much more drastic verb than the one usually used to say that "Ganon was defeated"?
- But one line later it says that in the same process, the hero also sealed Vaati inside the Four Sword. Maybe it was his spirit that was sealed?
- The Kanji for "Sacred Precincts" are not identical to those for "Sacred Realm". However, that same expression is used in TMC to refer to the space where the Four Sword is infused with the elements. FSA implies nothing about the people building that shrine (I can't check whether FS does). What a big surprise? not really
- It's also cool how NoA managed to turn a single word, "quietly", into an entire additional sentence
- On the word "resurrected": the same Kanji build the Japanese name of Easter, so it really could involve Vaati dying.
- Overall, it seems like the translators of the manual did the better job - too bad some other dudes got their version into the game, lol. Nah, they should've just joined forces and merged their versions to create a perfectly faithful text. I find it quite annoying to look through two different texts where Japan has one single...
Anyway, I think this shows perfectly how two different persons (or three, myself included) can turn the same Japanese text into very different stories. However, I'm confident that my version pays most respect to the original wording.

[Raien]

Good work.

In my past experience of discussing the nature of the word "resurrected" in other Zelda examples, it is used to refer to breaking free from seals as much as it is to refer to coming back to life. I think the word simply refers to breaking free from the Four Sword seal in this case.

Also, an interesting thought has occurred to me. What if the "hero in travelling" who first sealed Vaati in the Four Sword was TMC's Link? Think about it, the identity of Vaati in TMC were not widely known to the people (at least I certainly didn't hear any townspeople talking about Vaati). Likewise, we don't know what happened to Link after he defeated Vaati. So if Link began travelling and Vaati managed to resurrect later to steal maidens, then the events could realistically become the Legend of the Four Sword.

Edited by jhurvid, 08 February 2008 - 08:29 AM.

[Prime Blue]

Just thought I might bring this to your attention: Vaati's Japanese name グフー is romanized on the official Japanese The Minish Cap site, in one of the file names. It says Gufuh, rather than Gufuu (though both are correct, Gufuh is probably the most official transliteration we're going to get).

And, well, thank you.

[Crazy Penguin]

Anyone know what the Salona are called in the Japanese version of Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland? Wouldn't happen to be Uura would it?

[Prime Blue]

Some side-notes:
============


The Japanese version calls the twilight state of Hyrule トワイライトの世界 (Twilight World) instead of just "the twilight". This is analogous with the term "Twilight Realm" which is called 影の世界 (Shadow World) in the Japanese release of Twilight Princess.

The Shadow Beasts are called 影の使者 (Shadow Messenger) in the Japanese version, while these Kanji are mistranslated as "Shadow Assassin" on the official Japanese site.


Ordona -> ラトアーヌ (Ra-to-ā-nu) = Latoane: Latoanu would also be a possibility, but I guess this is just a silent "e" and they chose a "ヌ/nu" instead of a "ン/n" to show there is still an "e" to be written there. This is backed up by the Japanese transliteration of the city Cannes, which is カンヌ (Ka-nnu).
The translations of the term are Latouane (French), Latoan (Spanish and German) and Ratane (Italian).

Ordon Village -> トアル村 (To-a-ru Mu-ra) = Toal Village: The E3 2005 beta and the Zelda Gallery NDS cartridge translated this as "Toaru Village", but...
1. The filenames on the Twilight Princess disc romanize it as "Toal Village".
2. Lato (from "Latoane") is an anagram of Toal.


The sanctuary in Kakariko Village is - as with The Triforce of the Gods - once again a 教会 (Church) and Leonard is not a shaman, but a 牧師 (priest). This would explain the strange music...

Edited by Prime Blue, 13 February 2008 - 05:37 PM.

[Jumbie]

In my past experience of discussing the nature of the word "resurrected" in other Zelda examples, it is used to refer to breaking free from seals as much as it is to refer to coming back to life. I think the word simply refers to breaking free from the Four Sword seal in this case.

You may be right. The word could mean more like "revival" actually...

What if the "hero in travelling" who first sealed Vaati in the Four Sword was TMC's Link? Think about it, the identity of Vaati in TMC were not widely known to the people (at least I certainly didn't hear any townspeople talking about Vaati). Likewise, we don't know what happened to Link after he defeated Vaati. So if Link began travelling and Vaati managed to resurrect later to steal maidens, then the events could realistically become the Legend of the Four Sword.

Hey, that's a very good theory! TMC could definitely use a sequel, be it real or fictive. Why press another century in between TMC and FS' backstory?

Vaati's Japanese name グフー is romanized on the official Japanese The Minish Cap site, in one of the file names. It says Gufuh, rather than Gufuu (though both are correct, Gufuh is probably the most official transliteration we're going to get).

That's true, most Zelda names (e.g. Gohma, Goht or Sahasrahla) employ an H for lengthening in the romanized version.

Anyone know what the Salona are called in the Japanese version of Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland? Wouldn't happen to be Uura would it?

No. The Japanese website calls them サロナー, which ought to be romanized as "Saloner".
Strictly, NoA's "Salona" is impractical because it makes it sound like a tribe name when in fact it might just be their profession.

1. The filenames on the Twilight Princess disc romanize it as "Toal Village".

I remember a TP interview in which Aonuma personally corrected the interrogator (a Japanese) who had mispronounced Toaru. The man had stressed it on the O and therefore omitted the final U, but Aonuma explained to him that the stress actually belongs on the U.
We can't really trust file names, they were never meant to be seen by players and often contain tentative names. And anyway, Toaru is a Japanese name and NoA dediced not to keep it (sadly), so we can simply romanize it as "Toaru".

2. Lato (from "Latoane") is an anagram of Toal.

In our alphabet yes - but not in Kana. The Japanese construct anagrams by switching the intact syllables, never splitting them into the consonant and vowel sounds which form them.
I think the "la" Kana was added as with La-Nayru, and the "ru" of Toaru was altered to "nu", maybe also keeping the stress on this syllable.

The sanctuary in Kakariko Village is - as with The Triforce of the Gods - once again a 教会 (Church) and Leonard is not a shaman, but a 牧師 (priest).

Oh, now that is valuable information! Very valuable, because it means that the churches at the foot of Death Mountain with their adjacent graveyards can indeed be the same place in both TP and ALttP. Leonard can either be a relative or a parallel of the ALttP priest (depending on one's timeline theory), which is something I've always hoped for!

This would explain the strange music...

True, the melody seems to have a parallel pattern, but I'm not musical enough to discern if it's the same song remixed. Can you?

[Prime Blue]

I remember a TP interview in which Aonuma personally corrected the interrogator (a Japanese) who had mispronounced Toaru. The man had stressed it on the O and therefore omitted the final U, but Aonuma explained to him that the stress actually belongs on the U.
We can't really trust file names, they were never meant to be seen by players and often contain tentative names. And anyway, Toaru is a Japanese name and NoA dediced not to keep it (sadly), so we can simply romanize it as "Toaru".

Well, let's dig deeper into the term. There is an actual word in Japanese called とある (to-a-ru) which roughly translates to "a certain", making Toaru Village "a certain village". It would be good to have a native speaker confirm which syllable is pronounced in that word.
I've seen English reports about the E3 2005 demo translating this term as "unnamed" (making it "an unnamed village"), at the same time stating that it was a non-final name for the village.
This interview here is particularly interesting. Aonuma calls it "この「とある村」" ("this certain village") first. The "この"/"this" would sound outright strange if "Toaru Village" would have been a proper name in that sentence. Then, two questions later, he calls it just "To-a-ru Mu-ra" (the "toaru" again written in hiragana rather than in katakana), giving it proper name status - omitting the "this" (I'm aware that no articles are needed in Japanese, but it's strange that he doesn't include the "this" in the second mentioning if it was intended to be in hiragana).
This leads me to believe that the second instance shouldn't have been written in hiragana, but in katakana. Because the term is a play on words. If you google both terms, you'll actually find some sites musing about which version is correct.

In our alphabet yes - but not in Kana. The Japanese construct anagrams by switching the intact syllables, never splitting them into the consonant and vowel sounds which form them.
I think the "la" Kana was added as with La-Nayru, and the "ru" of Toaru was altered to "nu", maybe also keeping the stress on this syllable.

Mmh...Objection. This is pretty much impossible as to the conceptual differences of the two writing systems. A good example:

Dracula (ドラキュラ - Do-ra-kyu-ra)
Alucard (アルカード - A-ru-kā-do)

Now if it would be the intact Japanese syllables being switched, the outcome would be veeery strange. "Ra-kyu-ra-do" = "Lacurad". Eww.

But I've understood where you come from.

True, the melody seems to have a parallel pattern, but I'm not musical enough to discern if it's the same song remixed. Can you?

I was rather referring to the style of the music itself than comparing both the tracks from the two different games. That said, the melodies are definitely not the same. They are however similar in that two of the same instruments are playing simultaneously.


EDIT: I just looked up the Hylian on the Hyrule map in Twilight Princess and noticed that not all are exact duplicates of the North American names - but I don't know how serious we can take them as they seem to be a little off sometimes (copied the complete list from HeroOfTime on the Zelda Legacy forums for my own convenience) ~

LATOAN
FARONC
ELDIN
LANALU
SNOWPEAK
GREAT DESERT
RANCH
ORDON VILLAGE
ORDON SPRING
FARON WOODS
FOREST TEMPLE
TEMPLE OF TIME
KAKARIKO VILLAGE
DEATH MOUNTAIN
HIDDEN GULCH
ZORAS RIVER
ZORAS DOMAIN
RUINS
LAKE HYLIA
LAKEBED TEMPLE
ARBITERS KEEP
MIROR CHAMBER

EDIT 2: I translated the passage from the interview in question.

Interviewer: ...Toaru Village first.
Aonuma: The pronunciation is a little different. (puts the accent on the sound of the "ru") It's Toaru Village (laughs).
Interviewer: How rude of me (laughs). Toaru Village, that is.

So I guess he didn't drop the 'u', but rather put emphasis on the 'o' or the 'a'.

Edited by Prime Blue, 17 February 2008 - 03:41 PM.

[Jumbie]

Aonuma calls it "この「とある村」" ("this certain village") first. The "この"/"this" would sound outright strange if "Toaru Village" would have been a proper name in that sentence.

That's not so uncommon actually. They can indeed say "in this Kakariko Village" to express "here in Kakariko Village". Just like it'd be possible in English to say "in this here Kakariko Village".

This leads me to believe that the second instance shouldn't have been written in hiragana, but in katakana. Because the term is a play on words. If you google both terms, you'll actually find some sites musing about which version is correct.

The game text only has the Katakana version.

Mmh...Objection. This is pretty much impossible as to the conceptual differences of the two writing systems. A good example:

Dracula (ドラキュラ - Do-ra-kyu-ra)
Alucard (アルカード - A-ru-kā-do)

Now if it would be the intact Japanese syllables being switched, the outcome would be veeery strange. "Ra-kyu-ra-do" = "Lacurad". Eww.

I think Dracula's name reversed had already been a popular name for vampires in fiction, so the makers of Hellsing may have just taken the name Alucard and transcribed that into Katakana...


Now, even though not many will read it with the Storyline section being mysteriously abandoned all these days, here's another translated part of FSA. Requested by Impossible, it's the beginning of the game until Vaati swirls Link away:

リンク?リンク?私の声が　聞こえますか?？
Link? Link? Can you hear my voice?
Link? Link? Can you hear my voice?

突然　ハイラルを　おおった　黒い雲?
Suddenly, black clouds covered Hyrule?
Swiftly and suddenly, dark clouds covered all of Hyrule.

見ているものを　不安にさせる　不吉な雲?
Ominous clouds that filled all those who saw them with fear?
Ominous clouds that filled all those who saw them with fear?

悪い予感がして　なりません。リンク?ハイラル城へ　急いで?
The bad premonition must not come true. Link? Hurry to Hyrule Castle?
A sense of dread swept across the land. Link? Hurry to Hyrule Castle?

- - - - -

あぁ、リンク?。来てくれたのですね。
Ah, Link? Good that you came!
Oh, Link? It's you! Thank goodness you came!

ハイラルを守る　６人の巫女も　この城に集まってくれています。
The six shrine maidens who guard Hyrule are gathered here in the castle.
The six maidens who guard Hyrule are gathered here in the castle.

この不吉な空?。風の魔神、グフーの封印が　気がかりです。
This ominous sky? I'm worried about the seal of Gufuu, the wind majin.
The sky has become so dark and foreboding... I'm worried about the seal that binds the wind sorcerer Vaati.

ゼルダ姫さま！　どうぞ　お早く?。
Lady Princess Zelda! Please, quick?
Princess Zelda! Come quickly!

?急ぎましょう。さあ、あなたもこちらへ?。
?We must hurry. Come, you as well, this way?
We must hurry. Come, this way.

フォーソードの聖域への道は　あやしげな者が　近づかぬよう　巫女たちと　守ってきました。
The shrine maidens have been guarding the road to the Sacred Precincts of the Four Sword so no suspicious persons could get near.
These six maidens guard the portal to the Four Sword Sanctuary to keep it safe.

これから　グフーの封印を　たしかめに行きます。
I'm going now to reassure about Gufuu's seal.
I'm going now to make sure Vaati's seal remains strong.

巫女たちと　祈りをささげ　聖域への入口を開きましょう。
Offering a prayer, the shrine maidens will open the entrance to the Sacred Precincts.
Now, the shrine maidens and I must open the portal to the Four Sword's resting place.

リンク、少しさがっていて?。
Link, step back a little?
Step back, Link?

さあ、行きましょう。
Come with me.
Come with me, Link.

！??だ、だれっ？　あ?あなたは?。リ、リンク？！
! ?? Wh?who--? Y..You're? L-Link?!
Ah! Wh?who are--? It can't be... You're...Link?!

その剣には、風の魔神グフーが　封じられている。
This sword seals the wind majin Gufuu.
This sword guards the seal on the wind sorcerer Vaati.

引きぬくことが何を意味しているか　お前にはわかっているはずだ。
If you pull it out, you must know what to expect.
If you draw the sword, you must know what will happen.

それでもなお、剣を引きぬくというのか？
Do you still intend to draw forth the sword?
Will you still draw forth the sword?

やはり、その剣の運命を受け入れるというのだな？
So you accept the fate of this sword?
So you accept the fate of the one who draws this sword?

リンクよ、運命を受け入れた勇者よ。
O Link, hero who accepted the fate.
Link... You have accepted the destiny of the hero...

ゼルダ姫と巫女達は　闇の力により　ハイラルのどこかに　とらえられている。
Princess Zelda and the shrine maidens are caught somewhere in Hyrule by dark forces.
Princess Zelda and the six maidens have been taken by dark forces.

だが、お前の持つ剣は　グフーの魔力によって　闇を打ちくだく力を　失ってしまった。
However, due to Gufuu's magic, the sword you hold has lost the power to strike darkness.
However, Vaati's magic has robbed the Four Sword of its power to vanquish darkness.

剣に力を取り戻すには　その源であるフォースを　剣に集めなければならない。
To recover the sword's strength, you have to assemble its source, the Force, inside it.
To return the sword to its full strength, find the source of that power: Force Gems.

この世界のあらゆる物に宿るフォースを剣に集め　巫女を、そしてゼルダ姫を救うのだ。
Assemble in the sword the Force that resides in anything in this world, and rescue the shrine maidens and Princess Zelda.
Gather Force Gems wherever they lie, and rescue the maidens and Princess Zelda.

Notes:
- About the shrine maidens: 巫女 (miko) is a set expression in Japan; they are maidens working as mediums in Shinto shrines, so the best translation is shrine maiden. Note that "miko" doesn't contain the word for "shrine" though.
The way the maidens address Zelda shows that they're highly subservient to her.
ALttP uses a different word for the maidens, 娘 (musume), which simply means young girl. So apparently we're dealing with two different kinds of maidens in the two games.
- The entrance to the Precincts can be opened by the shrine maidens offering a prayer? Praying doesn't happen all the time in Zelda ? it better be special because in TMC, the door to the Precincts was only supposed to open once every hundred years. Thus, its mechanics must've been altered sometime between TMC and FS' backstory.
- The Force Gems are simply called フォース (Force), which is the exact same word as TMC uses for the Light Force (in Japanese without "Light"). Could this mean that the sword is powered by that which Vaati seeked in TMC? The four Elements/Jewels first provided this power in TMC, and they share the same colours with the scattered Force Gems. These are stated to reside in everything in Hyrule, probably because the Elements also belonged to nature.

So, here's hoping for some replies...

[Raien]

Hooray! Update!

ALttP uses a different word for the maidens, 娘 (musume), which simply means young girl. So apparently we're dealing with two different kinds of maidens in the two games.

On one hand, the fact that the maidens are dubbed "shrine maidens" would suggest a specific connection with the Four Sword. But on the other hand, their function to protect Hyrule is identical to that of the other Sages/Maidens. I see no reason why they shouldn't be related by bloodline.

The entrance to the Precincts can be opened by the shrine maidens offering a prayer… Praying doesn't happen all the time in Zelda – it better be special because in TMC, the door to the Precincts was only supposed to open once every hundred years. Thus, its mechanics must've been altered sometime between TMC and FS' backstory.

The shrines are altogether different in TMC and FS/FSA. TMC's shrine exists in the portal between the human and Minish realms, according to the Minish blacksmith. But FS's instruction manual said that the Hyrulians built a new shrine for the Four Sword after the wandering hero sealed Vaati inside of it. FS/FSA's shrine is hidden deeply in a forest in Hyrule, and Link was able to reach it by travelling through Frozen Hyrule. Only the shrine maidens know the shrine's location, so the creation of a portal from Hyrule Castle allows them to keep that location secret (plus it makes the introduction more convenient for the player).

The Force Gems are simply called フォース (Force), which is the exact same word as TMC uses for the Light Force (in Japanese without "Light"). Could this mean that the sword is powered by that which Vaati seeked in TMC? The four Elements/Jewels first provided this power in TMC, and they share the same colours with the scattered Force Gems. These are stated to reside in everything in Hyrule, probably because the Elements also belonged to nature.

I don't if you were with us on that discussion, but it makes a lot of sense that the Light Force is an especially powerful Force Gem (with its distinctive triangular shape). And yes, the fact that the elements gave the Four Sword its power tells us that they are magically related to Life Force. Here is what I have written on Life Force; from my Magic & Mythology article:

Life force is a new form of magical energy that was first properly introduced in Phantom Hourglass. Every living thing in the world possesses sacred life force, and individuals with a larger life force correspondingly possess more physical and magical strength. The physical embodiments of life force are triangular Force Gems, and in Phantom Hourglass, the life force of the Ocean King took the form of the Sand of Hours. Life force has no alignment with the forces of light and darkness; it merely gives power to whoever possesses it. However, since it is a sacred power, evil beings can gain the unholy ability to drain the life force of others. People without life force become lifeless stone, although they can be revived if their life force is restored to them.

Life force has previously appeared in Four Swords Adventures and The Minish Cap, and it answers a lot of questions about the respective powers of the Four Sword and the Light Force. Both items were forged by the Minish people; a race that lived in another dimension. The Minish could enter Hyrule through a portal that opened every one hundred years, and used that passage to bring the Hyrulians the Four Sword and Light Force to fight the evil in Hyrule. Some of the Minish later settled in various parts of Hyrule, and their descendants were able to help Link in The Minish Cap. The Minish are adept at manipulating life force, and the Light Force has all the qualities of a powerful force gem; triangular in physical form, but giving power to people who possess it. In the possession of Princess Zelda, it reflected her benevolent heart and maintained peace in Hyrule. Vaati’s ritual to drain the Light Force from Princess Zelda mirrors Bellum’s draining of Tetra’s life force, leaving both characters as stone.

Interestingly, the power of the Light Force went unnoticed in the possession of Princess Zelda, and Vaati, who was seeking the Light Force, did not even recognise it when she used her power in front of him. “The princess who holds the power of light... That mysterious power is said to flow in the veins of every royal lady in your family ever since that day when it was gifted to your people.” The simplest explanation for this is that Hyrulian princesses are all naturally gifted with Light magic or a strong life force. It was established in Phantom Hourglass that Tetra had a strong life force, so it could be related to Zelda’s power.

But what became of the Light Force after Link killed Vaati? In Four Swords, Vaati appeared in the form that he became after taking most of the Light Force, which suggests that he still possessed that part of the Light Force as a wind mage. As for Zelda’s remaining part of the Light Force, the power of it, combined with her wish using Ezlo’s cap, was able to restore peace to Hyrule. “The hat is falling apart. It's overflowing with the power of life! The hat has the power to turn the thoughts of its wearer into reality. Vaati's heart was filled with evil, and that was reflected in what he became. But it seems that Zelda's pure heart, coupled with the hat's power... ...has created a miracle!”

The life force in the Four Sword powers its special ability to repel evil. But when the Minish forged it, it did not yet possess the power to split the holder into four copies, so it went by a different name; the Picori Blade. When Vaati broke the Picori Blade, the four elements of earth, fire, water and wind were infused with the blade to restore its evil-repelling power, and to grant it the splitting power of the Four Sword. In Four Swords Adventures, Vaati was able to drain the Four Sword of its life force with the evil magic that he had received from Ganon. This began Link’s quest to recover force gems to restore the sword’s power. After Ganon was sealed within the Four Sword, it was laid to rest in the Four Sword Sanctuary and we have yet to know what became of it.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 February 2008 - 05:31 AM.

[Jumbie]

The shrines are altogether different in TMC and FS/FSA.

Not much. In TMC everything is in an excellent state, and centuries later in FS(A) it's moss-covered. The stained-glass picture in FS(A) was added after Vaati's second defeat in FS' backstory, as during TMC there used to be a door in that wall. We don't get as much freedom to move around that room in FS(A) as we get in TMC, so the additional statues might still exist out of our view. And the pedestal of the Four Sword not being in the middle of the four elemental pedestals anymore in FS(A) would be too nitpicky. In each of the three games, the sword pedestal's position just worked best where it respectively was.

TMC's shrine exists in the portal between the human and Minish realms, according to the Minish blacksmith. But FS's instruction manual said that the Hyrulians built a new shrine for the Four Sword after the wandering hero sealed Vaati inside of it.

I will probably never get a glance at the Japanese manual of ALttP+FS, so we cannot know if in FS, NoA invented the part with the people building the shrine as well, but I find it likely that Japanese might not say the same. For example, to "enshrine a sword" does not necessarily mean the same as to "build a shrine for the sword". And even if it did say the same, Japanese FSA could make a tiny retcon of that detail.
As it stands, I think that the Sacred Precincts have always existed and are not a manmade shrine, because we don't have access to any Japanese quotes implying such. None of the three FS series games even calls the place "Shrine of the Four Sword", it is the "Sacred Precincts" throughout. (Btw, the "Temple of the Four Sword" in ALttP was translated faithfully.) Based on the same name and the similarities, I once again have to abide by my principle of equating all similar things.

FS/FSA's shrine is hidden deeply in a forest in Hyrule, and Link was able to reach it by travelling through Frozen Hyrule. Only the shrine maidens know the shrine's location, so the creation of a portal from Hyrule Castle allows them to keep that location secret (plus it makes the introduction more convenient for the player).

Is the shrine really physically in that grove? There might just be a portal to another realm in there, just as there's one in Hyrule Castle...

People without life force become lifeless stone, although they can be revived if their life force is restored to them.

Oh, that actually explains how the Four Sword in TMC was able to de-petrify the people - the sword donated some of the Elements' infused Force to them!

Vaati?s ritual to drain the Light Force from Princess Zelda mirrors Bellum?s draining of Tetra?s life force, leaving both characters as stone.

I've checked the text dump of PH, and guess what - the life force is simply called フォース (Force) in Japanese! So it turns out there's not the slightest terminological difference between TMC's (Light) Force, PH's (Life) Force, and FSA's Force (Gems) at all!

The simplest explanation for this is that Hyrulian princesses are all naturally gifted with Light magic or a strong life force. It was established in Phantom Hourglass that Tetra had a strong life force, so it could be related to Zelda?s power.

Wow, that was ingenious of Nintendo! What I have to do now is to discard my theory of the Light Spirits being the impersonated Light Force...

But what became of the Light Force after Link killed Vaati? In Four Swords, Vaati appeared in the form that he became after taking most of the Light Force, which suggests that he still possessed that part of the Light Force as a wind mage.

So there we had Vaati, filled to bursting with (Light) Force, sealed inside the Four Sword which was in turn filled with (Elemental) Force. That's an interesting constellation...
Question: Did the sword's Force first surpass Vaati's Force and so keep him at bay, and then over the centuries, the sword lost some of its Force due to natural evaporation, allowing Vaati to overpower the seal?
Or was Vaati really "lifeless" after his defeat in FS' backstory, and actually "resurrected" himself by draining (Elemental) Force from the Four Sword he was sealed in?
A theory that I find unlikely is that Vaati was filled with Force but still soaked up additional Force from the Four Sword, thus weakening the seal. If this was the case, why would it take him centuries, and shouldn't he then be even stronger than he was in TMC? He certainly wasn't, in FS and FSA...
Which of these theories do you think makes most sense?

The life force in the Four Sword powers its special ability to repel evil. But when the Minish forged it, it did not yet possess the power to split the holder into four copies, so it went by a different name; the Picori Blade. When Vaati broke the Picori Blade, the four elements of earth, fire, water and wind were infused with the blade to restore its evil-repelling power, and to grant it the splitting power of the Four Sword.

I'm really not sure of that being true. Why was there a mechanism prepared for the four Elements and the sword in TMC's Sacred Precincts, if it hadn't already been used to create the Picori Blade?

In Four Swords Adventures, Vaati was able to drain the Four Sword of its life force with the evil magic that he had received from Ganon.

Was it Ganon's magic? I thought Vaati could only come free in FSA because Link deliberately drew the sword to fight Shadow Link..? I mean, of course the text says that Vaati's magic robbed the sword's power, which accounts for the sudden appearance of Force Gems all over Hyrule, but did he do that while sealed in the pedestal or after Link freed him?


So altogether, the Force in Zelda is a universal power that can reside in everything, be it living beings, the four Elements, the Four Sword, and in addition to that, it can also exist outside of anything in an extracted state which is the Force Gems. In fact, since Japanese doesn't call them "gems", based on their nature as crystalized energy we might want to call them Force crystals (which happens to be the translation that the German translators of FSA chose).
I think this sums it all up nicely, taking into consideration the identical terminology in all four games which mention the Force, and explaining how the Force in TMC can be the same as Life Force but still not be the start of people possessing Life Force.

Edited by Jumbie, 18 February 2008 - 03:25 PM.

[Raien]

I will probably never get a glance at the Japanese manual of ALttP+FS, so we cannot know if in FS, NoA invented the part with the people building the shrine as well, but I find it likely that Japanese might not say the same. For example, to "enshrine a sword" does not necessarily mean the same as to "build a shrine for the sword". And even if it did say the same, Japanese FSA could make a tiny retcon of that detail.

As it stands, I think that the Sacred Precincts have always existed and are not a manmade shrine, because we don't have access to any Japanese quotes implying such. None of the three FS series games even calls the place "Shrine of the Four Sword", it is the "Sacred Precincts" throughout. (Btw, the "Temple of the Four Sword" in ALttP was translated faithfully.) Based on the same name and the similarities, I once again have to abide by my principle of equating all similar things.

I'm sure there are lots of similar/same words in Japanese, just like different words have similar meanings in English. But I think when the descriptions/functions are different, then they hold more weight.

Is the shrine really physically in that grove? There might just be a portal to another realm in there, just as there's one in Hyrule Castle...

I don't think the portal was bound to Hyrule Castle; I think it was bound to the magic of the Shrine Maidens. Nonetheless, Link is brought to the shrine without magic, and therefore the shrine is physically in that Hyrulian grove. This explains why the 100 years rule doesn't apply in FS/FSA.

Oh, that actually explains how the Four Sword in TMC was able to de-petrify the people - the sword donated some of the Elements' infused Force to them!

Good idea!

Question: Did the sword's Force first surpass Vaati's Force and so keep him at bay, and then over the centuries, the sword lost some of its Force due to natural evaporation, allowing Vaati to overpower the seal?
Or was Vaati really "lifeless" after his defeat in FS' backstory, and actually "resurrected" himself by draining (Elemental) Force from the Four Sword he was sealed in?
A theory that I find unlikely is that Vaati was filled with Force but still soaked up additional Force from the Four Sword, thus weakening the seal. If this was the case, why would it take him centuries, and shouldn't he then be even stronger than he was in TMC? He certainly wasn't, in FS and FSA...
Which of these theories do you think makes most sense?

Maybe you're looking at it too deeply? Remember that no detailed existence of Force existed before FSA and TMC were developed simultaneously.

I'm really not sure of that being true. Why was there a mechanism prepared for the four Elements and the sword in TMC's Sacred Precincts, if it hadn't already been used to create the Picori Blade?

I think an element of prophecy is involved (dare I say it). The fact that a large stone tablet appears to explain how the user can separate into four pieces suggests that there was an expectation that it would be broken and restored. Furthermore, the location of the Light Force was well hidden behind the stone tablet; why?

Anyway, for my initial statement, I was going off the fact that TMC's Hero wasn't famous for splitting into four, as opposed to FS's Hero, who was. The fact that the sword is called the Picori Blade, as opposed to the Four Sword, is also an implication that the sword did not have that power. But the Picori Blade was clearly evil-repelling nonetheless, so it's likely that the shrine was built at first to simply imbue the powers of the elements.

Was it Ganon's magic? I thought Vaati could only come free in FSA because Link deliberately drew the sword to fight Shadow Link..? I mean, of course the text says that Vaati's magic robbed the sword's power, which accounts for the sudden appearance of Force Gems all over Hyrule, but did he do that while sealed in the pedestal or after Link freed him?

Maybe I was mistaken about using Ganon's magic then. *Edits*

[Malu CLBS]

Hi there. I'm new to this thread (and to the forums actually), and since I've had a growing interest for the timeline recently, I decided to read this.

I know this is kinda old but half a thread ago I noticed the "lost our king to such greed" Japanese version was missing a part.

瞳の奥に潜む欲望が、古代の一族のように力に支配されると　王は危[?]したからさ！
That desire lying hidden in your pupils, like the clan of ancient times when they were controlled by power. Therefore the king feared [?] !

So I searched in youtube in hopes to find the missing kanji. And I found it! It's right here.
at 8:05.

So the complete thing goes like this
瞳の奥に潜む欲望が、古代の一族のように力に支配されると　王は危惧したからさ！
With 危惧する meaning "to fear"
Note: In the actual video, it's a bit hard to notice what kanji it is, but the furigana helped with that.

I'll be reading this a lot now, since it's interesting how the japanese text has its differences with the NoA version.

[Raien]

Excellent! Welcome to the board, Malu CLBS!

[CID Farwin]

Yes, nice find and welcome!