1600 replies to this topic

[Raien]

Still sounds like a lament of circumstance to me.

As you wish. I've justified my argument.

[Showsni]

Finally!! Finally we get another example of someone escaping a seal by creating an alter ego of themselves! Ciela splitting her soul is described using the same word as Ganon does in ALttP when he speaks about Agahnim. 分身 (bunshin) literally means "soul split" but just as well translates to "alter ego". So this proves that Agahnim is Ganon, he's a split-off part of Ganon's soul - a very different story from Zant. ...Think of it in Harry Potter terms: Zant is like Quirrell, Agahnim is like Tom Riddle's diary.

That's not what it says, though. It doesn't say Ciela was sealed at all - in fact, she escaped being sealed by creating an alter ego of herself; much like typical fantasy fare where the real person escapes, leaving a doppelganger to be caught. Sure, it's possible ALttP Ganon split himself, leaving part to be sealed and part to escape; but it clearly didn't happen that way, or they'd have told us. Ganon was caught off guard by the sealing. The split and escape trick only works if you do it before you're sealed, not once you've already been captured; and it's very unlikely Agahnim's been wandering around since the Seal War.

[LionHarted]

Of course, now we have the possibility of soul-splitting being the means of escape for Ganon from the Sacred Realm seal after OoT and from the Flood seal in TWW. I would go so far as to say that this explains why he was separated from his magicks in TWW until you break the Flood seal, as well as why the demon persona is absent in TWW.

This also would leave Ganon's appearance in LoZ wide open, and/or explain why Ganon's (the demon) soul is still present in the Trident...

Edited by LionHarted, 26 February 2008 - 04:36 PM.

[Gibdo Master]

Of course, now we have the possibility of soul-splitting being the means of escape for Ganon from the Sacred Realm seal after OoT and from the Flood seal in TWW. I would go so far as to say that this explains why he was separated from his magicks in TWW until you break the Flood seal, as well as why the demon persona is absent in TWW.

This also would leave Ganon's appearance in LoZ wide open, and/or explain why Ganon's (the demon) soul is still present in the Trident...

This could definitely help fill in the connection between ALttP and the OoT; the demon part of him would be left behind when he escaped the Evil Realm. Was Agahnim actually Gandondorf then or another soul split?

Edited by Gibdo Master, 26 February 2008 - 09:45 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Was Agahnim actually Gandondorf then or another soul split?

I'd have to say soul split. Whether his body is a manifestation is up to debate. My hypothesis is that a piece of Ganon's soul probably possessed the already existing Agahnim.

[Impossible]

Of course, now we have the possibility of soul-splitting being the means of escape for Ganon from the Sacred Realm seal after OoT and from the Flood seal in TWW. I would go so far as to say that this explains why he was separated from his magicks in TWW until you break the Flood seal, as well as why the demon persona is absent in TWW.

This also would leave Ganon's appearance in LoZ wide open, and/or explain why Ganon's (the demon) soul is still present in the Trident...

But Ganondorf in TWW had the Triforce of Power. He was the real Ganondorf, not a copy like Agahnim. Also, there's no actual evidence for your theory ("this makes this possible" isn't evidence), so it's not really going to go anywhere. As for your two "explanations"... We don't see his demon form because he loses the ToP before Link battles him, so there's no mystery there. And we know why he can't use his full power until Link draws the Master Sword - we're told that in the game. There was a magic seal placed on his power, and the Master Sword is the key. When Ganon broke out in TWW's backstory, he clearly had a lot of power, and judging by the backstory he may even have used his beast form - that's why he was so dangerous that the only way out was the flood.

I don't think this translation actually means that Ganondorf split his soul in ALttP. It's a different case, different person, different century, different writer. Same word in Japanese, yes, but if the word can mean two different things, there's no guarantee that the meaning is the same for both. Nothing is ever said or implied about soul splitting in ALttP. In PH it may be implied in other ways, so the translators decided that was the appropriate translation - and whether it is or not we don't know. Using the same word for something that is really quite different is nothing even resembling an intentional attempt to link the two. There's no actual basis to compare Ciela and Ganon. Ciela lost her memory, Ganon didn't. Besides, we already knew that ALttP said "bunshin", and anyone could have told us that this also means "soul split". I'm not sure how PH affects that.

The quote from FSA I'm interested in right now is the one about Vaati building the Palace of Winds last time he escaped his seal - both to see if that's true (because TMC seems to contradict or retcon that), and also to see if it implies that FS happened recently. I think I listed some other FSA stuff I wanted earlier.

Edited by Impossible, 27 February 2008 - 02:12 AM.

[Raien]

I never thought of Ganondorf using soul-splitting in TWW; it makes perfect sense. I don't know think we should use it in other games though, if the evidence to suggest it is absent.

[FDL]

So should I just not respond so we don't get the thread split again?

[Raien]

Well, given that Jumbie isn't going to update for two more weeks, either we keep posting or let the topic die.

[CID Farwin]

or start a new one.

*cough*

[FDL]

Well, given that Jumbie isn't going to update for two more weeks, either we keep posting or let the topic die.

Well, I mean to this subject. I'll continue though if everyone else wants to.

or start a new one.

*cough*

That is one option. I won't but someone else can if they want. I still can't get over that awesome avatar....someone else loves those criminally under-rated games.

By the way, what's with this warning thing? I see it only under my own name and it says I've got "0%" warning but then I've got five blocks next to it. Can someone explain if that's normal?

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 28 February 2008 - 10:52 PM.

[CID Farwin]

By the way, what's with this warning thing? I see it only under my own name and it says I've got "0%" warning but then I've got five blocks next to it. Can someone explain if that's normal?

here you go.

I still can't get over that awesome avatar....someone else loves those criminally under-rated games.

I almost had a heart attack when you said "Janos Audron." We have much to discuss my friend....

*goes off to make new topic*

[FDL]

By the way, what's with this warning thing? I see it only under my own name and it says I've got "0%" warning but then I've got five blocks next to it. Can someone explain if that's normal?

here you go.

Thanks.

I still can't get over that awesome avatar....someone else loves those criminally under-rated games.

I almost had a heart attack when you said "Janos Audron." We have much to discuss my friend....

We do indeed. I may get myself a LoK avatar in solidarity.

[Jumbie]

Just wanted to say that nothing is dying here. I still cant work properly for about 5 more days, but then, another big thing is already coming up! See ya.

[Prime Blue]

No biggie, though it's interesting:

The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons and The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages are called ゼルダの伝説 ふしぎの木の実 ～大地の章～ and ゼルダの伝説 ふしぎの木の実 ～時空の章～ in Japan, respectively.

"ふしぎの木の実" ("mysterious fruit/berry/nut of a tree") is the Japanese term for the "Mystical Seeds". Though "木の実" is mostly translated as "fruit". Their names are as followed:

アチチの実 (Achichi Fruit / Atiti Fruit)
イテテの実 (Itete Fruit)
サッサの実 (Sassa Fruit)
ピューの実 (Pyuh Fruit)
ハテナの実 (Hatena Fruit)

The titles of the games can thus be translated as:
THE LEGEND OF ZELDA The Mysterious Fruits ~Chapter of Spacetime~
THE LEGEND OF ZELDA The Mysterious Fruits ~Chapter of Earth~

The other European translations of the term were all literal translations of "seed" which leads me to believe they were created from the English source translation. Comparing the English and German version also brings up a lot of similarities in the structure of the text.

When the games were still supposed to be a trilogy, their subtitles were 力の章, 知恵の章 and 勇気の章 - Chapter of Power, Chapter of Wisdom and Chapter of Courage. Some sources point to these titles being sequels to the original THE LEGEND OF ZELDA, while others say that six Game Boy Color titles were planned at first, three titles of the Triforce Trilogy unconnected to previous games, ports (remakes?) of the first two games and another original installment.

Edited by Prime Blue, 11 July 2010 - 06:43 PM.

[Jumbie]

As announced, here's another translation. Well, maybe it's not that "big" after all.
Kudos go to Prime Blue for finding the back of the Japanese box of ALttP:


(Here it's compared with the US box)

He and I made our independant efforts of translating the three sentences. It was a rather difficult text that still seems to leave a lot ambiguous no matter how well you're able to translate it. I'll just go ahead and show you my version:

今度の舞台はリンクが活躍した頃よりも遥か昔、ハイラルが、まだ一つの王国であった時代。
This time, the stage is set very long before the time when Link accomplished a feat, the epoch when Hyrule was still one kingdom.

走る、ぶつかる、かつぐ、投げる。押す、引く、泳ぐ、剣を振る・・・
Run, strike, carry, throw. Push, pull, swim, swing the sword...

ハイラルの国中を自由自在に駆け巡り、黄金の力『トライフオース』を手にしたとき、あなたは伝説の勇者になれるのです。
Roaming freely all over the country of Hyrule, you'll get used to being the hero of legend once you have obtained the golden power, the "Triforce".

Notes:
- Where I wrote "very long before", the word is 遥か昔 (haruka mukashi), which I can't remember seeing used ever before, and indeed I think it's fairly special and could therefore imply an interval between ALttP and LoZ of such a long time that the usual words for "long ago" would've been understatements. After all, the longer the interval, the better it can be explained why during LoZ nothing was remembered of the events of ALttP. Because if they remembered, the manual story of LoZ should have spent some more words on Ganon's backstory, regardless of that they didn't even dream of making ALttP back then.
- The third sentence sounds very odd in English, but I wanted to preserve the original wording. It speaks about obtaining the Triforce in past tense... To make that compatible with ALttP's ending where Link only receives the Triforce, I went for perfect tense, though it remains weird why the box should spoil the game's ending so.
What I'm trying to say is that I first thought it said Link had obtained the Triforce and therefore during the game he gets accustomed to being the hero. Well, that part remains ambiguous. I leave it to you: does ALttP's Japanese box say Link carried part of the Triforce all throughout the game? Ooohhh...

[MikePetersSucks]

Or maybe they were referencing the end scene, which was obvious since Link has always gathered the entire known Triforce in the past installments already. Infact, it's one of the main things that caused the OOT Triforce rumors.

[Fyxe]

It simply means you'll be the true hero only once you get the Triforce. Nothing special there. But if anything this all just lends more credance to ALttP (obviously) being TLoZ's prequel. Nice touch about Hyrule being one kingdom.

[CID Farwin]

Yes, I have to argue about everything that isn't spelled out. That's sort of how this whole logic thing works. If something is not proven, then it is not fact.

The "show" of ALttP begins with the backstory, mgo.

If something isn't spelled out, then it's not fact?!???

If that's the case:

There is no Triforce in TP.
There is no Lost Woods in TP.
OoT is not the IW.
AoL doesn't take place after LoZ.*
Link isn't Hylian in OoT.

*far as I know, isn't 'spelled out'

Are you going to start arguing that Link's half Kokiri, now?

"The stage is set" means the setting. ALttP takes place long before Link accomplished a great feat. How would it make sense to refer to a backstory that most people upon reading the back of the box have no idea exists???

[Jumbie]

...I really can't believe this! o_O

LionHarted, what you've performed now has got to be your most paradoxical weasel-words *ever*, desperately trying to keep your beloved LoZ>ALttP placement alive and possible at any cost, somehow always managing to linguistically defuse a quote which threatens your personal theories. But in all honesty, this unnecessary devil's advocating has NO justification at all to take so much space in this thread. I won't even bother to comment on the details of your interpretation.

Seriously, if I always wanted a straightforward statement like you do, I could never have translated a single line of Japanese!
Because that language, by nature, is all about using intuition and taking a possibility for a fact! Hardly anything is clearly spelled out to you in Japanese, because they assume that an averagely intelligent person doesn't need everything spelled out to them to know it's true. And right they are.
Oftentimes, it's not even *feasible* to word something crystal-clear in Japanese. You're simply too spoiled by the English language (or any Western ones for that matter).

Don't you think it's time for you to realize that the fan theory bends to the facts, and not the facts to the theory?

So, I kindly ask a mod to pack all the posts from #229 onward into a new topic, please.

Mgoblue201, you once again prove to be a master of reasoning, just like before in the appendix to your TP quote FAQ. If your post cannot make LionHarted aware of how incarcerated his thinking is, nothing ever can.


*edited to avoid a warning*

Edited by Jumbie, 17 March 2008 - 11:16 PM.

[Impossible]

There's no TWW Japanese text dump yet, is there? I was thinking that Laruto's dialogue when you meet her might be interesting...

Also, don't forget LA's manual. >_>

[Jumbie]

Or maybe they were referencing the end scene, which was obvious since Link has always gathered the entire known Triforce in the past installments already. Infact, it's one of the main things that caused the OOT Triforce rumors.

Right, that's a sufficient point. Getting the complete Triforce wasn't so special anymore after it had already been seen in AoL. So we can take the respective sentence as a flashforward to ALttP's ending.

There's no TWW Japanese text dump yet, is there? I was thinking that Laruto's dialogue when you meet her might be interesting...

No, there isn't (the same goes for TMC and Oracles). As soon as they'll be available, you would notice by me posting a translation out of those^^

Also, don't forget LA's manual. >_>

Would you quit the demanding already? This thread is for requests, not commissions. And I had some weeks off, if it's fine with you... v_v
As you may have noticed, I did provide other translations even though I was not home!

Anyway, so as not to post empty-handedly, here is something random, MM's intro story (manual and in-game is the same):

ハイラルに伝わる王家の伝説　そこに一人の少年が登場する
In Hyrule, a legend is handed down by the royal family in which a lone boy appears
In the land of Hyrule, there echoes a legend. A legend held dearly by the Royal Family that tells of a boy...

巨悪と戦いハイラルを救ったのち　彼は、伝説から姿を消した
After saving Hyrule by battling a great evil, he disappeared from legend
A boy who, after battling evil and saving Hyrule, crept away from the land that had made him a legend...

時をこえた戦いを終え　彼は人知れず旅に出た
Done with the battles that exceeded time, he embarked on a secret journey
Done with the battles he once waged across time, he embarked on a journey. A secret and personal journey...

冒険の終わりで　別れた　かけかえのない　友を探す旅に??
A journey in search of an irreplaceable friend he had parted with at the end of the adventure??
A journey in search of a beloved and invaluable friend... A friend with whom he parted ways when he finally fulfilled his heroic destiny and took his place among legends...

I don't see any great differences... but just to be certain about it.

[Raien]

Well, it says that the hero parted with his friend at the end of the adventure, so it pretty much proves to all the doubters that this friend is Navi, and not Saria.

Thanks again, Jumbie.

Edited by jhurvid, 19 March 2008 - 06:20 PM.

[Impossible]

Sorry, I don't mean to be demanding, it was just a reminder, since I wasn't sure if you had it on your agenda.And I'm very impatient. I'm just looking for things that I think might be useful to us. I do appreciate the effort in what you're doing, so don't get too worked up.

Who made the Japanese text dumps we have so far?

Don't you think it's time for you to realize that the fan theory bends to the facts, and not the facts to the theory?

...You know who you're talking to, right? He pretty much entirely destroyed the actual stories of several games in order to try and make OoT-MM-TP-TWW work, based on idiotic ideas and blatant ignorance of what can be easily inferred. This isn't someone to come up with a theory AFTER the facts.

[Jumbie]

Well, it says that the hero parted with his friend at the end of the adventure, so it pretty much proves to all the doubters that this friend is Navi, and not Saria.

I was shy to spell it out myself It also proves the friend is not Skull Kid, right? Because I guess that theory is still floating around...

Sorry, I don't mean to be demanding, it was just a reminder, since I wasn't sure if you had it on your agenda.

No need for a reminder, it's sitting on my desktop. Originally I wasn't sure if I could do LA's manual story at all because it's a pic, but yeah, now I got it in text form, it's coming up.

Who made the Japanese text dumps we have so far?

The old ones were made by davogones. The newer ones, e.g. TP and PH, were made by Iron Knuckle.

Don't you think it's time for you to realize that the fan theory bends to the facts, and not the facts to the theory?

...You know who you're talking to, right? He pretty much entirely destroyed the actual stories of several games in order to try and make OoT-MM-TP-TWW work, based on idiotic ideas and blatant ignorance of what can be easily inferred. This isn't someone to come up with a theory AFTER the facts.

Sure, I've followed his theorizing style for some years, so I asked him, rhetorically, if he doesn't ever tire of rolling everything up from the wrong end.

[Impossible]

Who would anyone think that it's Saria? She lives in Kokiri Forest, that wouldn't make her hard to find. I could at least understand Skull Kid, because that ties it into the actual story of the game, and explains why he's looking in the Lost Woods. And it would be cool if that were the case, but if you read MM's explanation of who Link is looking for, it's pretty clear that only Navi fits the bill.

[Raien]

Who would anyone think that it's Saria? She lives in Kokiri Forest, that wouldn't make her hard to find. I could at least understand Skull Kid, because that ties it into the actual story of the game, and explains why he's looking in the Lost Woods. And it would be cool if that were the case, but if you read MM's explanation of who Link is looking for, it's pretty clear that only Navi fits the bill.

It sounds obvious that it's Navi, but some people just need the extra clarification.

[Showsni]

It plays Navi's sound effect immediately after the line, how much more obvious can it get?

[LionHarted]

He pretty much entirely destroyed the actual stories of several games in order to try and make OoT-MM-TP-TWW work, based on idiotic ideas and blatant ignorance of what can be easily inferred. This isn't someone to come up with a theory AFTER the facts.

Oh, be fair. Using only the facts present at the time of TP's release (from TP: that Ganondorf was defeated, a hero saved Hyrule, three bearers had Triforce parts; from TWW: Ganon turned Hyrule into a world of shadows, Ganon was "revived from the depths of the earth", which could mean "death"; from interviews: OoT-TP-TWW), that was essentially the only explanation I could arrive at without presuming things that weren't revealed in the game nor really referenced in any other game happened, which I wasn't prepared to do until the TP interview revealed the tie-in to an alternate child history, which until that moment didn't even need to exist.

Edited by LionHarted, 22 March 2008 - 09:01 PM.

[Impossible]

Oh, be fair.

You first, Mr. "You're speculating about this/That's your interpretation, therefore you're wrong, even though I speculate and reinterpret to no end about much greater things that the games don't imply". Please.

Using only the facts present at the time of TP's release (from TP: that Ganondorf was defeated, a hero saved Hyrule, three bearers had Triforce parts;

You said that TP Link was the Hero of Time. That was a fact present at the time of TP's release? What about the fact that Ganondorf was sealed in the Sacred Realm between OoT and the flood? What about the fact that the Hero of Time isn't mentioned at all? What about the fact that Ganondorf was NOT sealed in the Sacred Realm, but instead captured and brought to justice?

from TWW: Ganon turned Hyrule into a world of shadows, Ganon was "revived from the depths of the earth", which could mean "death"; from interviews: OoT-TP-TWW),

None of that fits with TP more than OoT, or at all. TWW only talks about the Hero of Time and the events of OoT, and TP didn't even exist at the time. Also, Ganondorf was killed in TP, meaning the Triforce of Power wasn't with him anymore. And more importantly, Link couldn't have had the Triforce of Courage in TP. It was impossible.

Also, I find the idea of you taking a pre-release (by a year and a half, making it about as accurate as Miyamoto saying TWW was first) interview as fact funny when you even ignore a post-release interview about FS and FSA.

that was essentially the only explanation I could arrive at without presuming things that weren't revealed in the game nor really referenced in any other game happened, which I wasn't prepared to do until the TP interview revealed the tie-in to an alternate child history, which until that moment didn't even need to exist.

LOL, I can't believe you're still trying to claim that. No. You're wrong. You were wrong in 2002, when Aonuma talked about the split timeline. You were wrong because of the basic understanding in time travel-related fiction that when the future is completely changed by someone's actions, the original future either disappears (it didn't because of TWW), or occurs in a separate reality. It most certainly needed to exist, because MM could NOT happen otherwise, as that was following an ending where the Master Sword was not drawn, and hence the rest of OoT never happened. It was a necessity, and an obvious one. The split timeline did not become true in 2006.

Also, let's not get this topic off track anymore, there's no need for another split. Although much like timeline splits, thread splits are not necessarily bad. It's important that we debate the issues being raised by Jumbie's translations, and if we don't want those arguments to get in the way of the translation topic, they do need to be separate.

Edited by Impossible, 22 March 2008 - 10:09 PM.