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#181 Jumbie

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 01:59 PM

Welcome to LA!^^

I know this is kinda old but half a thread ago I noticed the "lost our king to such greed" Japanese version was missing a part.

No matter how long ago, I cannot thank you enough for searching that missing Kanji! :D
So it was just one Kanji, the same one that I suspected it to be... While it doesn't add information, we now have the needed certainty to rearrange the quote:

教えてやるよ・・・オマエが長として認められなかったのは、その目だ!
I'll have you know... The reason why you were not accepted in the position of the leader is your eyes!

You want to know why none would call you king? It was your eyes, Zant.

瞳の奥に潜む欲望が、古代の一族のように力に支配されると 王は危惧したからさ!
Because the king feared that desire lying hidden in your pupils, due to which the clan of ancient times got controlled by power!

All saw it...a lust for power burning in your pupils... Did you think we'd forget our ancestors lost their king to such greed?


So the meaning doesn't change from what I first translated, but we can see now that it's one sentence.

Actually I didn't think there were videos from the Japanese TP on YouTube, that's nothing but awesome!
Now maybe we can also find the part with Leonard (Renado) talking to Link after completing the Goron Mines, because he speaks about the deeds of the ancient hero there. And much more importantly, the meeting with Rafrel (Auru) on the lake tower, as I think this entire part is missing from the text dump.

Hmm, could it be that the [?]'s in the Japanese text dump always replace just one single Kanji because those are rarely occurring ones? That'd be a very comforting thing, so we wouldn't miss out on too much text...

#182 Kairu Hakubi

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 07:42 PM

This is the only thread for this, uh, what's with this "King Do Bon Zora III" stuff? Was 'King Zora the 14th' an invention of NoA? What'd the sign near Jabu-jabu say originally?

#183 jacensolo06

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 08:03 PM

This is the only thread for this, uh, what's with this "King Do Bon Zora III" stuff? Was 'King Zora the 14th' an invention of NoA? What'd the sign near Jabu-jabu say originally?


The original is signed with "キングゾーラ・ド・ボン16世".

This says "King Zora Do Bon, 16th Generation".

#184 Malu CLBS

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 10:26 PM

Actually I didn't think there were videos from the Japanese TP on YouTube, that's nothing but awesome!
Now maybe we can also find the part with Leonard (Renado) talking to Link after completing the Goron Mines, because he speaks about the deeds of the ancient hero there. And much more importantly, the meeting with Rafrel (Auru) on the lake tower, as I think this entire part is missing from the text dump.


You're welcome ^_^ I'm glad I could help.

As for those parts you ask... I don't know if the first one you refer to is the last minute of this video:
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
Leonard/Renado starts talking at 7:20.

この子達のことは私達に任せてください
だから、貴方は安心して 貴方を必要とする 人々のところへ行ってあげてください
そのお姿を見ていると、ハイラルに伝わる古の勇者を思い出します
貴方に、ハイラルを創りたまいし神々の祝祷があらんことを

The only difference I've noticed so far is that he says "blessing of the gods" instead of saying "goddesses" like in the English text dump. O_o strange...
LOL It just ocurred to me to find at least the first line in the text dump. And it is. Just after I had finished trying to decipher what he said. Well, at least that helped with practicing my Japanese ^^;

The second one is found in this video:
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related at 4:06

Let's see... Nope... apparently his speech is not in the text dump. I transcribed the wrong text, it seems... Oh well.

そろそろ、来る頃だと思っておりました・・・
リンク殿、ですな?
テルマのことは、ご存知であろう?老廃(?)は彼女の店で世話になっている、ラフレルと申します
貴殿の活躍を彼女から聞きましてな
そのような勇猛な若者なら必ず砂漠の異変の話を聞きつけここへ来られると思っておりました
違いますかな・・・?
リンク殿は 知っておられるか?
かつて、あのゲルド砂漠にはある大罪人を罰した処刑場があったそうです
何でも、その大罪人は処刑場にある呪われた鏡によってあの世に送り込まれてしまったとか・・・
今ではその処刑場は閉鎖(?)され、砂漠へ行く道も絶たれております
世界と隔たれた砂漠・・・そこに取り残された鏡と死人の怨念・・・
老廃は、ハイラルに起こる様々な異変があの砂漠と関係あるのではないかと思い、ここから様子をうかがっておりました
して、リンク殿はこれから どうなされるおつもりか?
まさか、あの砂漠へ赴き自らの目で確かめに行かれるとか?
おお、そうですか
では、このラフレル微力ながらお手伝いいたしましょう
ハイリア湖の湖上で遊戯屋を営んでおりますトビーという男にこれをお渡しくだされ

After that he gives you the note you have to give to Toby/Fyer and says how he once helped him.
I have a pair of doubts, though (that's what the (?) means). One is 老廃 (which reads ろうはい). The quality of the video doesn't help with this word, though it appears twice. I checked the dictionary and this word doesn't seem to fit. The other word is 閉鎖 (へいさ) which makes sense, but I can't read the second kanji well, that's why I put it as a doubt. But I'm more certain about this than the first word.

The guy that submitted both videos seems to have all the game footage in Japanese (I haven't checked if the last parts are referring to the end of the game, but it might be handy in looking for other missing texts)

#185 Impossible

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 07:45 AM

I still have my eye on this topic... I'm just pretty busy lately, and I haven't been very involved in any timeline debate. Thanks for the FSA translation. It's not at all explicit about whether or not this Link is familiar with Vaati and the one who fought him in FS, unfortunately, and in fact some of the wording differences raise doubt over that. But this is a bit different:

リンクよ、運命を受け入れた勇者よ。
O Link, hero who accepted the fate.

Link... You have accepted the destiny of the hero...


The Japanese version calls Link a hero, while the US version says he has "accepted the destiny of the hero". Maybe no different meaning is intended, but maybe the point is that Link is already a hero. And we still have the manual, which refers to Link and Zelda by name. So I'd still call FS-FSA being one Link a safe bet.

What was that line again (from a maiden) about what Vaati did the last time he invaded Hyrule? I might have posted it earlier in the topic. That could be another useful one.

#186 Jumbie

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 02:32 PM

This is the only thread for this, uh, what's with this "King Do Bon Zora III" stuff? Was 'King Zora the 14th' an invention of NoA? What'd the sign near Jabu-jabu say originally?


The original is signed with "キングゾーラ・ド・ボン16世".

This says "King Zora Do Bon, 16th Generation".

I also fell for this confusion... In the infamous Aonuma TP interview, a footnote refers to OoT's King Zora as the 3rd, but the Japanese OoT itself is consistent with the American version in that he's the 16th.

As for those parts you ask... I don't know if the first one you refer to is the last minute of this video:

That's what I meant, yes. However... I'm terribly sorry, I confused Leonard's speech with that of the third Goron elder... :whistle:
But I'm fairly sure now that [?]'s only ever replace a single Kanji, so in the Goron elder's quote it must only contain the verb (something like "defeat" probably), and not a possible elaboration on the demon the ancient hero defeated. So you really don't have to make the effort of looking that one up.
That said, the quote in question must read:

凶悪な魔を[?]ったと言われるその武器は、ダルボスを鎮めるのにも使えるかも知れんゴロ・・・
That weapon is said [to have defeated] a brutal demon. It might even be used to calm Darubosu, goro?

That weapon is said to have defeated the most powerful evils this world has ever known. It might even work to calm Darbus...


LOL It just ocurred to me to find at least the first line in the text dump. And it is. Just after I had finished trying to decipher what he said. Well, at least that helped with practicing my Japanese ^^;

That reminds me of the other day when I begun manually recreating the Japanese text from the manual of Link's Awakening, and then, coincidentally googling the Kanji for Wind Fish, I came upon the official Japanese LA site which has the manual story in text format :lol:

The second one is found in this video:

Let's see... Nope... apparently his speech is not in the text dump. I transcribed the wrong text, it seems... Oh well.

The wrong one? No, since this is missing from the text dump, you did the exact right one, thanks!^^ Extremely valuable, because a lot of theories could stand or fall with this passage.

The guy that submitted both videos seems to have all the game footage in Japanese (I haven't checked if the last parts are referring to the end of the game, but it might be handy in looking for other missing texts)

Definitely so :)

What was that line again (from a maiden) about what Vaati did the last time he invaded Hyrule? I might have posted it earlier in the topic. That could be another useful one.

Ah right, the yellow Maiden telling about Death Mountain! I got that right here:

リンク! あなたは、あの岩の魔物を 退治したのですか?!
Link! Did you defeat that rock monster?!

Link! Did you defeat that giant stone eye-thing?

グフーのしもべを倒し 私を救ってくれるなんて?。
The way you rescued me by killing Gufuu's minion?

Thank you! By defeating that beast, you rescued me from my crystal prison!

助かりましたわ リンク?。感謝いたします?!
I am saved, Link? I express my gratitude?!

Thank you, Link. You have my gratitude!

復活をとげた 風の魔神グフー?。
The wind majin Gufuu who managed to revive...

The wind sorcerer Vaati has regained his power.

かつてハイラルが 支配されようとしたとき、あの魔神は 天空に 風の宮殿をつくりあげました。
When he last tried to conquer Hyrule, he built a Palace of Winds in the heavens.

When he last tried to conquer Hyrule, he built a Palace of Winds in the Realm of the Heavens.

ならば 今もきっと?!
If surely even now?!

So even now, he's sure to be-

ですがリンク。まずは ゼルダ姫を 救わねばなりません。事をせいては なりませんよ。
Link! You must first rescue Princess Zelda. Don't dally away!

Link! You must first rescue Princess Zelda. Act quickly!

私が治めるデスマウンテン。その頂上に炎の塔が そびえたっています。
I rule over Death Mountain. High atop the peak, the tower of flames stands tall.

I rule over Death Mountain. High atop the peak, the tower of flames stands tall.

死の山を登りなさい。溶岩が さかまく塔に きっと巫女が とらわれています。
Climb the mountain of death. A shrine maiden must be trapped in the tower of surging lava.

Climb the mountain. One of the maidens must be trapped in the tower of raging lava.

?さあ、リンク。あなたを 導きましょう?。
?Come, Link. I shall guide you?

Come, Link. I shall guide you.

デスマウンテンには ゴロンという岩の種族がいます。
There's a race of rock folk called Gorons living on Death Mountain.

There's a tribe of rock folk called Gorons living on Death Mountain.

あなたのように 仲間と力を合わせ、山を守り続けている者たちです。
They're the people maintaining the mountain, and just like you, they join forces with companions.

Like you, they're working to protect their home.

きっと力になってくれるでしょう。
I'm sure they'll come to your aid.

I'm sure they'll come to your aid.



#187 Malu CLBS

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 03:27 PM

I meant it was the wrong one because I began transcribing Leonard's/Renado's text without searching for it in the text dump. And when I was finished, I noticed it WAS in the text dump. Then when I started looking at Rafrel's/Auru's text, I searched for it in the text dump but it wasn't there. So I spent time transcribing something that we already had and if it had been the other way around I would have saved time. :sweat:

#188 Prime Blue

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 08:58 AM

The Legend of the Fairy / 妖精の伝説

その昔 緑の衣をまとった「時の勇者」という若者が、この国を救ったと、言いますしかし、ある島にはこの「時の勇者」を助けた妖精の不思議な物語が伝えられています
It is said that a long time ago, a youth wearing green clothes called the "Hero of Time" saved this country. However, on a certain island, a mysterious story of a fairy that helped the "Hero of Time" is passed down.

It is said that long ago, a boy garbed in green known as the Hero of Time saved this land. However, on a certain island, there is also the story of the fairy who saved that hero...


「時の勇者」は、旅のなかばで、その妖精に出会ったといいます道を見失い 途方にくれる勇者の前に、その妖精は姿を現しました不思議な術で、空に浮かび、パチンという、まるで風船のわれるような 音とともに、舞降りたといいます
It is said that the "Hero of Time" met this fairy in the midst of his journey. When he lost sight of the road, it gave the fairy a reason to show its figure in front of the hero. By a mysterious art it was floating in the air, it is said that the balloon burst with a sound just like with a snap, and it is said that it fell and danced.
It is said that the Hero of Time met the fairy in the midst of his travels. The fairy appeared before the Hero, who had found himself lost in darkness. With a mystic power, it would float in midair, dancing above his head like a burst balloon.


その妖精は迷える勇者に マップを手渡すと、また、飛んでいったといいます勇者よりも、先に危険な場所におもむき そのマップを書いては手渡す妖精そのけなげで、小太りな姿に、時の勇者は いくたびも救われたと、伝説は、続けます
The fairy handed a map to the lost hero and it is said that it flew away. The fairy proceeded to dangerous places earlier than the hero, created maps and handed them over. The legend goes on, the Hero of Time was saved by the courageous one, the plump figure, whenever he proceeded.
*
After the fairy handed the lost Hero a map, it flew off as quickly as it had appeared. Better able to foresee places of danger than the Hero, the fairy marked them on a map. The Legend goes on to say the quest of the Hero of Time was saved by this plump figure...

*: "the courageous one" could either apply to the fairy or the Hero of Time. But as "the plump figure" comes after "the courageous one" and the story is called "The Legend of the Fairy", Tingle is the courageous one here, most likely.


幾千年の 時を生きる妖精 しかし、その不思議な妖精は、少し違いましたその不思議な妖精は、湖の辺にうまれ 時の勇者と出会ったとき、わずか35歳という若さでしたそんな妖精のことを、知るものも、今ではほんのわずかになってしまいました?
Fairies live for a time of thousands of years, but this mysterious fairy was a bit different. The mysterious fairy was born near a lake, when he met the Hero of Time he was only 35 years young. Today, people knowing such a fairy have become sparse.

Fairies live for thousands of years... but this odd fairy was a bit different. This mystical fairy was born near a lake, and when he met the Hero, he was but 35. Beyond that, there is little known about that fairy...


今では、知るものも少ない不思議な妖精の伝説しかし、ある島では今でも、35歳の誕生日になると、緑色の服と赤いパンツで、お祝いをするようですあの伝説の妖精「チンクル」のようになることを願って
Now, there are few people knowing the legend of the mysterious fairy. However, on a certain island the 35th birthday is still celebrated with green clothes and red pants. And they pray to become like the fairy of the legend, "Tincle".

The little-known Legend of the Fairy's 35th Birthday. On one island they celebrate one's 35th birthday with a green coat and red pants. They do this in the hopes of becoming like the legendary fairy, Tingle.


As you see, no big surprises here. Not a lot of changes. At first I thought there was no "like" in the last sentence, which would have made the people of the island praying for becoming a reincarnation of Tingle - which in turn would have given an accurate explanation of the timeline-swapping. Romanization of Tingle's Japanese name from the official Japanese site. They probably changed it because of wii...err...wee.

Edited by Prime Blue, 24 February 2008 - 06:25 AM.


#189 Jumbie

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 09:36 PM

Cool, Prime Blue, you always bring the stuff that I don't have access to^^ At least we can rest assured now that NoA translated the Legend of the Fairy faithfully.

So... thanks to the huge help of Malu CLBS, I've finally been able to look at the quote in TP which I personally most longed for:
Link meeting Auru on top of the tower in Lake Hylia. Auru is known as Rafureru in Japan - note the different kind of similarity to Rauru.
In order to be able to show this soon, I didn't waste my time on their initial chit-chat and only did the four crucial lines:

かつて、あのゲルド砂漠には ある大罪人を罰した処刑場が あった そうです
In the Gerudo Desert, there once was an execution place at which a certain big criminal was punished.

The Gerudo Desert once held a prison built to hold the worst criminals this land has ever known...

何でも、その大罪人は 処刑場にある呪われた鏡によって あの世に 送り込まれてしまった とか・・・
As I heard, that big criminal was sent to the other world by means of a cursed mirror kept at the execution place, and so on…

The criminals who were sentenced to death were sent directly to the underworld by a cursed mirror that was kept in the prison...

今ではその処刑場は閉鎖され、砂漠へ行く道も絶たれております
Nowadays that execution place is shut down, and even the road leading to the desert is cut off.

Now that prison is condemned, and even the road leading to the desert is impassable.

世界と隔たれた砂漠・・・そこに取り残された鏡と死人の怨念・・・
The desert which was separated from the world... left behind at that place was the mirror and the grudge of the deceased…

This desert at world's end... It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates...


Notes:
- Note how NoA consequently replaced "execution place" with "prison". ...Bad, very bad! :angry:
- While I recognize that the "big criminal" could also be meant in plural, the "certain" in front of it makes me positive that it is one single criminal (and we all know who).
- While あの世 certainly has the meaning of "other world" as in afterlife, it literally just translates to "that world", so you can see how free of a term that is. Rafrel may well believe that it's the afterlife they were sent to, since we're dealing with an execution place after all, but that really doesn't mean he was misinformed by the Sages. It might be his own interpretation of what he was told, or he might not even refer to afterlife but to an unspecified other world. His adding "as I heard" and "and so on" further strengthens this notion.
- The desert is not said to be "at world's end", but rather it was "separated from the world". Doesn't that remind you of FSA, where the Dark Mirror was hidden away to sever it from the world?
- In the same line, Rafrel doesn't mention the mirror is cursed. Of course he said earlier that it is, but many have taken the word "cursed" appearing in this line to form their specific interpretations (which I don't recall right now, you'll know best yourself). As for the "doomed inmates", they're stated to be deceased (yeah, "doomed" can mean the same, but it was less straightforward).


Overall, this quote has turned out to be exactly as I suspected the other day in the Dark Mirror thread. I always supposed that Rafrel might in Japanese be talking only about Ganondorf and not the Twili tribe, and so it turned out to be. *delighted snickering*

And Malu, 閉鎖 is perfectly correct the way you saw it, as well as 老廃 which you were unsure about. It means "decrepit", and Auru uses it on himself as a term of humbleness or something, roughly translating to "these old bones", as NoA got right.

Edited by Jumbie, 23 February 2008 - 09:48 PM.


#190 Raien

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 09:57 PM

Wow... this has to be one of NOA's greatest cock-ups so far. Talk about misleading! At least I know now to scrap the entire Twilight Mirror = ritual death thing.

Btw, I think the desert being "separated from the world" might be a throwback to when Ganondorf told us that the desert was not blessed by the goddesses, like Hyrule. It is a separate land and cursed with fell winds.

#191 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 10:01 PM

YEA!!! I knew the whole "Routine slaying of teh criminals with the Mirror" thing was bollocks.

SCREW YOU GUYS WHO SAID OTHERWISE! :D

#192 Raien

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 10:18 PM

Hmmm... It makes me think though. Now that I look at the translation again, "afterlife" is the only context that fits the statement. Auru never referred to the Twilight Realm before, so "that realm", as an indication of the Twilight Realm, doesn't fit.

I think that the Twilight Mirror was conventionally used to send the spirits of criminals to the Twilight Realm, and that Auru generalised his statement to "afterlife" because he did not know of the Twilight Realm's existence. EDIT: Having just read Rusl's talk at the beginning of the game, I am more inclined to believe that people in Hyrule are confusing the Twilight Realm with the afterlife, or that they see the Twilight Realm as an afterlife.

Edited by jhurvid, 23 February 2008 - 10:36 PM.


#193 CID Farwin

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Posted 24 February 2008 - 05:58 PM

This was a center of debate a while back, that last line "the mirror and the grudge of the deceased."

With my knowledge of Japanese, it appears that the mirror and the malice are indeed unrelated, not one because of the other, correct?

#194 Raien

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Posted 24 February 2008 - 06:21 PM

With my knowledge of Japanese, it appears that the mirror and the malice are indeed unrelated, not one because of the other, correct?


The connection between the mirror and malice is my own interpretation, because there is no good alternative reason for the mirror to possess evil power.

Edited by jhurvid, 24 February 2008 - 06:23 PM.


#195 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 24 February 2008 - 09:19 PM

The connection between the mirror and malice is my own interpretation, because there is no good alternative reason for the mirror to possess evil power.


I'm sure that's not the case. Maybe when Zant broke up the mirror, he cursed the shards as extra defense, or maybe the Twilight Mirror was a pre-existing artifact of the Twili that the Goddesses used against them, or maybe the "evil" Midna was talking about was it's evil potential and nothing else, instead of being a literally evil object.

#196 Raien

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Posted 24 February 2008 - 09:30 PM

I'm sure that's not the case. Maybe when Zant broke up the mirror, he cursed the shards as extra defense


This statement from Midna suggests that the evil came from Hyrule, as opposed to Zant.

To think the Mirror of Twilight has the power to change people like that...
This world...ALL worlds...can be cruel...


or maybe the Twilight Mirror was a pre-existing artifact of the Twili that the Goddesses used against them


Except that the Dark Tribe have no evidential connection with the Twilight Realm before they were sealed inside.

or maybe the "evil" Midna was talking about was it's evil potential and nothing else, instead of being a literally evil object.


I swear I raised Midna's quote in a previous discussion on this very subject; it's quite clear that Midna was referring to evil magic.

You saw how nasty that monster was, right?
The evil within the shards is more powerful than you can imagine...


Edited by jhurvid, 24 February 2008 - 09:43 PM.


#197 CID Farwin

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Posted 24 February 2008 - 11:43 PM

With my knowledge of Japanese, it appears that the mirror and the malice are indeed unrelated, not one because of the other, correct?


The connection between the mirror and malice is my own interpretation, because there is no good alternative reason for the mirror to possess evil power.

I have a few similar views as well, but I'm just saying that back when this was a topic of discussion, this quote was used to get some out there theories, all of which are now debunked.


and would it hurt to make a new topic before this turns into something split-worthy? it would be nice to give the mods a break for once.

#198 Fyxe

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 05:57 AM

Jumbie, is it not the case that 人は translates as 'people' as well as 'man'? What makes you so certain that the Japanese text is referring to one criminal, other than the fact that we only know of one that is relevant to the plot?

I'm not saying your translation is wrong, but similarly, I'm not sure that Nintendo's translation is incorrect either.

I'm not sure where you're getting the word 'certain' either. A certain big criminal? What part of the text gives you that?

Your translation makes more sense but I just want to check it's accuracy.

#199 FDL

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 10:45 AM

Wait, how isn't the Arbiter's Grounds a prison? What's with the corpses and the seeming sealing away of that demon with the sword? Wow, I'm a little surprised...

#200 Raien

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 10:53 AM

What's with the corpses and the seeming sealing away of that demon with the sword? Wow, I'm a little surprised...


I believe the description of the Arbiter's Grounds was specifically in reference to human criminals, so the sealing of dark magic was not what was being referred to. And the corpses could be executed criminals.

#201 Jumbie

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 11:33 AM

Hmm, actually I'm seriously confused now. Things aren't as clear as I hoped, and I think the debate is far from concluded...

Having just read Rusl's talk at the beginning of the game, I am more inclined to believe that people in Hyrule are confusing the Twilight Realm with the afterlife, or that they see the Twilight Realm as an afterlife.

I should re-post this text:

夕暮れがおとずれると、どことなく、寂しくならないか?
Don't you ever feel lonely for some reason as dusk falls?

Tell me... Do you ever feel a strange sadness as dusk falls?

それはな、あの世とこの世が この時だけ、交わることができ・・・
It's the only time when the other world and this world can intersect?

They say it's the only time when our world intersects with theirs...

未だ、この世に未練を持つ幽界の者達の思いが、そうさせるんだそうだ
It is said that the sentiments of the people of the underworld/hades, their regrets lingering in this world, are still around.

...The only time we can feel the lingering regrets of spirits who have left our world.

だから、黄昏時は、寂しくもあり そして、切ないんだとさ・・・
That's why the hour of twilight is lonesome and dolorous?

That is why loneliness always pervades the hour of twilight...


With この世 and あの世, he definitely means the world of the living and the afterlife, even more so since it's followed by 幽界 (yuukai), the world of the dead.
But of course, that may only be what the Hyruleans know of the matter.
The only alternative is to say that the Shadow World is none other than The Legend of Zelda's hell, hades, underworld, other world, realm of the dead...

With my knowledge of Japanese, it appears that the mirror and the malice are indeed unrelated, not one because of the other, correct?

Well, it's irresolvably ambiguous. The sentence translates as follows:
鏡(mirror) と(and) 死人(the dead) の('s) 怨念(grudge/malice)

Therefore, の怨念 (grudge/malice of..) could either refer to "the dead" or to "the dead and the mirror". When I posted it, I had to decide for one.

and would it hurt to make a new topic before this turns into something split-worthy? it would be nice to give the mods a break for once.

Definitely, I will start one just after this post, as I can see a big debate coming up after these elaborations...

Your translation makes more sense but I just want to check it's accuracy.

It's good if you want to reassure, as I'd like everyone to be able to comprehend the texts like the translators do.

Jumbie, is it not the case that 人は translates as 'people' as well as 'man'? What makes you so certain that the Japanese text is referring to one criminal, other than the fact that we only know of one that is relevant to the plot?

That's right, but in this case, 人 is part of a 3-Kanji-compound, 大罪人, which means "big/great criminal" (English lacks a unified word for that). Of course we don't automatically see whether 大罪人 is in singular or plural, but there would've been the possibility to add the plural indicator 達 to avoid ambiguity, or alternatively they could've said "several". They didn't do either though.

I'm not sure where you're getting the word 'certain' either. A certain big criminal? What part of the text gives you that?

This one: ある大罪人. ある means "certain" if it stands before a noun, or "to exist" if it stands after a noun.
But I'm thinking, why should they say "certain big criminals" instead of "several big criminals"? Ganondorf surely is the one big criminal in Hyrule we've heard of.

Wait, how isn't the Arbiter's Grounds a prison? What's with the corpses and the seeming sealing away of that demon with the sword? Wow, I'm a little surprised...

Of course, we know that there *are* cell blocks in Arbiter's Grounds, just the Japanese texts I've looked at so far have never used the word "prison". What the Arbiter's Grounds really are, is a death row. I get the impression that none of its inmates were supposed to get out alive.


Now go see the new thread to debate the "other world" issue, or post here if you have more questions about the translations^^

Edited by Jumbie, 25 February 2008 - 11:43 AM.


#202 Fyxe

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 11:53 AM

It seems you're at least partly, if not wholly correct about the certain bit. Even Google's translator translates ある大罪人 as 'a big sinner', which does emphasise the singular.

So basically, to get this straight... The Arbiter's Grounds is essentially death row, but Auru is probably talking about Ganondorf specifically, meaning that any ambiguity around the idea that other prisoners were sent to the Twilight Realm (a concept I never believed in to begin with, I don't think the translation implies this at all anyway) is effectively removed.

I will say it's rather unusual to use the monolith as the point for execution, mind you. It's probably just symbolic. Either that or they suspected that their attempt to kill Ganondorf might indeed fail, which it nearly did.

That or it's a useful contrivance for the plot. .

Edited by Fyxe, 25 February 2008 - 11:55 AM.


#203 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 12:23 PM

To think the Mirror of Twilight has the power to change people like that...
This world...ALL worlds...can be cruel...


Oh yes, because that can't at all just be an allegory for fate and circumstance.

#204 Raien

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 12:41 PM

Oh yes, because that can't at all just be an allegory for fate and circumstance.


If, as a writer, you want the player to know that Zant cursed the mirror, you say it straight. You don't say "this world is cruel", suggesting that a natural occurence could be responsible, unless perhaps you meant it.

#205 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 06:37 PM

If, as a writer, you want the player to know that Zant cursed the mirror, you say it straight. You don't say "this world is cruel", suggesting that a natural occurence could be responsible, unless perhaps you meant it.


I didn't say that it had to be an allegory for Zant being involved, but "This world is cruel" doesn't strike me as Hyrule generating some sort of esoterically empowered "malice" either. It was probably Midna just lamenting the fact that suffering is a part of life.

#206 Raien

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 06:39 PM

I didn't say that it had to be an allegory for Zant being involved, but "This world is cruel" doesn't strike me as Hyrule generating some sort of esoterically empowered "malice" either. It was probably Midna just lamenting the fact that suffering is a part of life.


But Midna's not referring to suffering in general; she's referring to the power of the Twilight Mirror, and how it can change people for the worse.

#207 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 10:12 PM

Then why does she mention ALL worlds?

#208 Jumbie

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 10:39 PM

So, I will be away for the next two weeks (at least I won't be able to do translations from there), that's why tonight I'm posting a load of translations for you all.

Let's return to FSA for a second. This is the Red Hyrule Knight speaking:

私は ハイラル騎士団 赤き宝玉を まもりし騎士。
Out of the group of Hyrule Knights, I am the one guarding the red jewel.

I am the Knight of Hyrule charged with guarding the red royal jewel.

勇者よ聞け、騎士のなげきを。
O hero, hear the lament of the knights.

Hear now the doom of the knights.

我々ハイラル騎士団は、強大な武器を持った男に倒され、宝玉とともに 魔界へと落とされた。 その後すぐ 黒き影達により、我々と宝玉は 各地に散らされ。
We, the group of Hyrule Knights, were felled by a man with a mighty weapon, and were dropped into the Makai along with the jewels. Right after that, among the black shadows, we and the jewels were scattered all over the place.

We were bested by a foe with a mighty weapon. He cast us into the Dark World, where we and the jewels were lost in shadow.

天空の塔は すがたを消してしまった。
The tower of the skies vanished from sight.

The Tower of Winds vanished, and I...

この私が?、代々王家につかえしハイラル騎士団が、使命も果たせず 魔物にされていたのだ?!
Here I am?, a Hyrule Knight who served the royal family for generations, and then both failed to carry out his mission and was turned into a monster!

No, WE servants of the crown were turned into monsters!

我々を打ち破ったのも、あの黒き影をつくり出したのも 同じ者のしわざ。
Defeating us and creating that black shadow was both the work of the same person.

The man who defeated us is also the same man who created that shadowy imp.

それは砂漠からきた男?。?グフーではない。
And that is a man who comes from the desert? ?He is not Gufuu.

A man from the desert wastes... He is not Vaati.

お前によく似せられた あの影は、グフーの封印を 解かせるように ヤツがしむけた ワナだったのだ。
That shadow who imitated you so well was sent by him in order to get Gufuu's seal broken.

Your dark twin was sent by him to trick you into breaking Vaati's seal.

しかしヤツは あれほどの強大な力を どこから手に入れたのか?
But where did the fiend get such mighty power?

I wonder where the fiend got the amazing power he now wields.

?事がどうあれ、このままでは ゼルダ姫に申しわけが立たぬ?!
?Be that as it may, none of this admits an excuse to Princess Zelda?!

It matters not! None of this allows me to aid Princess Zelda.

だが、私はもう進めぬのだ。
And yet I cannot go on...

And yet I cannot go on...

?勇者よ、お前に 赤の宝玉を たくそう。これで宝玉は3つそろった。
?O hero, I entrust the red jewel to you. With this, you have three jewels altogether.

Brave ones...I entrust the red royal jewel to you. You now possess three of them.

最後の1つを手に入れ 天空の闇を晴らしてくれ!
Obtain the last one, and clear up the darkness in the heavens!

Obtain the fourth, and bring light back to the Realm of the Heavens!


Notes:
- The jewels are not said to be royal.
- As for the name of the Knights, 騎士団 (knight group) is identical to what was used in ALttP's manual. The game ALttP itself, however, called them ナイトの一族 (clan of knights), strangely giving their name as a Katakana transcription of the English word "knight".
- I was a bit surprised to see the word 魔界 (makai) occur in FSA. That's where the cursed Knights ended up. Knowing that we fought with them in the Dark World (called the same in Japanese), FSA gives us proof once more that the Makai and Dark World are one and the same place, just like OoT did. Since Makai means the realm of the Maou, and Ganon has the power to throw the Links into the Dark World, and the darkness flowed out onto the Forest of Light, we can assume the Dark World is Ganon's realm once again in FSA.
- When the knight says they were lost "among the black shadows", he actually refers to the Shadow Links, as we find out upon further reading: "creating that black shadow" and "that shadow who imitated you so well".
- Although here the Knight says "tower of the skies", this occurs only here and is not actually the Japanese stage name for the Tower of Winds, which remains the same in the original.


Next is a snippet about the Gerudos, also from FSA:

ゲルド族は、砂漠をうやまい ともに助け合いながら くらしています。
The Gerudo tribe respects the desert, they live while they cooperate with it.

The Gerudo honor the desert.

とても心が美しく、しんらいできる者たちですから その中に闇の王など?。
The King of Darkness and all that -- from among those people, who are trustworthy and truly beautiful of heart?

They are trustworthy and pure of heart. I cannot imagine one of them is the King of Darkness...


Speaking of the desert, you can compare here the names of Hyrule's desert throughout the games:

OoT: 幻影の砂漠 Desert of Illusions/of the Phantom
ALttP: あやしの砂漠 Desert of Doubt
FSA: あやしの砂漠 Desert of Doubt
TP: ゲルド砂漠 Gerudo Desert


I looked at the Gerudoman's description in ALttP's Japanese manual:

あやしの砂漠に住み着く砂男です。
A sand man who has settled down in the Desert of Doubt.


And another table comparing the names of dark temples:

OoT's Shadow Temple: 闇の神殿 (Yami no Shinden) Temple of Darkness
ALttP's Palace of Darkness: 闇の神殿 (Yami no Shinden) Temple of Darkness
FSA's Temple of Darkness: 暗黒の神殿 (Ankoku no Shinden) Temple of Darkness


So it seems the OoT and ALttP temples are more similar than the ALttP and FSA temples are...


And finally, in an act of randomness, I also translated some lines from PH. It's something special, NoA didn't actually mess up here, but rather I discovered something about the Japanese version which at long last clarifies an age-old question...

力・知恵の精霊は その魔物たちに封印されたが
The spirits of Power and Wisdom were sealed by those monsters.

The spirits of Power and Wisdom were also imprisoned.

シエラは うまく分身して 逃げられたのじゃろう
But Shiera could escape by skilfully creating an alter ego.

But Ciela managed to split her soul and escape.

記憶は おそらくそのときに なくなったのじゃ・・・
Her memory was perhaps lost in the act?

That split was why so much of her memory was lost.


Finally!! :) Finally we get another example of someone escaping a seal by creating an alter ego of themselves! Ciela splitting her soul is described using the same word as Ganon does in ALttP when he speaks about Agahnim. 分身 (bunshin) literally means "soul split" but just as well translates to "alter ego". So this proves that Agahnim is Ganon, he's a split-off part of Ganon's soul - a very different story from Zant. ...Think of it in Harry Potter terms: Zant is like Quirrell, Agahnim is like Tom Riddle's diary.


That must be enough for the time being. So, until I return to translating, feel free to discuss about anything in this post by starting new threads, as I realize it's been quite much (although most is not too intriguing). Make sure to spread the word about the PH part though!

Edited by Jumbie, 27 February 2008 - 05:30 AM.


#209 Raien

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 10:48 PM

Then why does she mention ALL worlds?


She begins by referring to "this world" because the evil in the Twilight Mirror is a product of Hyrule, but then she decides that all worlds have the potential to create such evil.

The Gerudo tribe respects the desert, they live while they cooperate with it.


I notice this statement is very different from what Ganondorf tells us about the desert in TWW; it appears that the Gerudo have learned to live without regret in the desert, just as the Twili did in the Twilight Realm.

And finally, in an act of randomness, I also translated some lines from PH. It's something special, NoA didn't actually mess up here, but rather I discovered something about the Japanese version which at long last clarifies an age-old question...

Spoiler : click to show/hide

力・知恵の精霊は その魔物たちに封印されたが
The spirits of Power and Wisdom were sealed by those monsters.

The spirits of Power and Wisdom were also imprisoned.

シエラは うまく分身して 逃げられたのじゃろう
But Shiera could escape by skilfully creating an alter ego.

But Ciela managed to split her soul and escape.

記憶は おそらくそのときに なくなったのじゃ・・・
Her memory was perhaps lost in the act…

That split was why so much of her memory was lost.


Finally!! :) Finally we get another example of someone escaping a seal by creating an alter ego of themselves! Ciela splitting her soul is described using the same word as Ganon does in ALttP when he speaks about Agahnim. 分身 (bunshin) literally means "soul split" but just as well translates to "alter ego". So this proves that Agahnim is Ganon, he's a split-off part of Ganon's soul - a very different story from Zant. ...Think of it in Harry Potter terms: Zant is like Quirrell, Agahnim is like Tom Riddle's diary.


Why the spoiler? Everyone should be made aware that Ganondorf split his soul to create Agahnim! What an awesome find!

#210 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 08:19 AM

Finally!! smile.gif Finally we get another example of someone escaping a seal by creating an alter ego of themselves! Ciela splitting her soul is described using the same word as Ganon does in ALttP when he speaks about Agahnim. 分身 (bunshin) literally means "soul split" but just as well translates to "alter ego". So this proves that Agahnim is Ganon, he's a split-off part of Ganon's soul - a very different story from Zant. ...Think of it in Harry Potter terms: Zant is like Quirrell, Agahnim is like Tom Riddle's diary.


I was the first one to say that, too. :D I rule.

She begins by referring to "this world" because the evil in the Twilight Mirror is a product of Hyrule, but then she decides that all worlds have the potential to create such evil.


Still sounds like a lament of circumstance to me.




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