33 replies to this topic

[Jumbie]

Since it was suggested in the translation thread to start a new topic, here it is. It's especially due after my latest post there, which you should've checked first before reading this topic!

So what do you think about the Shadow World (Twilight Realm)? There are two possibilities:
1. The Hyruleans have no clue about the Shadow World's real nature and imagine it to be the afterlife.
2. The Twili tribe does indeed reside in the very hell.

I think that the second option isn't impossible. Nowhere is it said that people have to be dead to reside in hell, and The Legend of Zelda can make its own rules anyway. The thing with the executed criminals would tie into it, although I was previously opposed to that. Moreover, it would explain why the Hyruleans were turned into spirits when the Twilight covered Hyrule (whereas the Twilis have somehow adapted to the Twilight and keep their physical forms). The pair of "our world" and "the other world" certainly fits the two sides principle, with the Sacred Realm/Dark World coming in as one more dimension of Hyrule...

[Fyxe]

Is it not the case that the Dark World is referred to as hell (or makai, anyway) on a few occasions? I think this is merely a case of convinient terminology. It's the closest thing they know to hell, so they speak of it as if it was hell. I don't think the Twilight Realm is referred to in such solid terms as the Dark World is sometimes, however.

The fact that both locations are referred to with terminology that could represent hell (and lets not forget that Ganon is a Demon King) means that neither of them are actually THE hell. Although the Dark World is the closest thing to hell in the Zelda series, especially given that it is seemingly a lingering and possibly endless presence in the Oracle games, Four Swords Adventures and others.

It seems to me that the Zelda series as a whole likes to focus on Ganon being the Demon King. OoT told the story of the humble beginnings of Ganon and the Dark World, but even after the conclusion of these events with Ganon's death in ALttP, there is a constant effort to revive the Demon King (as shown in Zelda II, the Oracle games and others). Therefore, the Dark World acts as a metaphorical hell. Even in TWW he is still referred to as the king of the Evil Realm.

Then again, with TWW, TP and FSA making us all wonder where the fuck ALttP fits into the whole thing, god knows what they consider the Dark World to be like nowadays.

[Raien]

The first possibility sounds most likely. The Twilight Realm has become a world where spirits reside thanks to criminals being sent there by the Goddesses/Sages. I would presume that knowledge of the true nature of the Twilight Realm is very scarce in Hyrule, so a myth has developed that the Twilight Realm is the underworld. As a consequence, Rusl and Auru are confusing the Twilight Realm with the afterlife, because of the spirits that reside there. PS: I posted Jumbie's translation on the Zelda Universe forums, and according to one of the more active members there, he thought that such confusion was clearly implied in the German translation.

Edited by jhurvid, 25 February 2008 - 12:44 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Of course it's not hell. For one thing, the Twili aren't really suffering, secondly, they're not dead, and three, no one else seems to go there unless sent through the Mirror. It's just an alternate cosmological plane.

[Raien]

Of course it's not hell. For one thing, the Twili aren't really suffering, secondly, they're not dead, and three, no one else seems to go there unless sent through the Mirror. It's just an alternate cosmological plane.

Spirits of the dead live alongside the Twili, and are the source of the emotions of suffering and malice. Of course, spirits don't naturally go the Twilight Realm; these spirits were sent there by the goddesses (if they're the dark tribe) or by the Sages (if they're later criminals).

Edited by jhurvid, 25 February 2008 - 12:37 PM.

[Showsni]

Does the Zeldaverse even have a hell? We know the undead, ghosts and reincarnation exist; does a traditional afterlife? I can't remember. I guess the obvious place to search is the Oracle of Seasons text dump...

Well, what do you know?

Ahoy! When I was searching the desert for the bell, I got caught in a
sandstorm. I awoke like this! I can't go on to the afterlife... If ya
pity me, help me find that bell! Me skull is rollin' out in the desert.
Find that first.

I took so long to reach the afterlife, I'm not sure I know how to...

................ Well, at least I can go on to the afterlife now! The
rest is up to you!

[Fyxe]

Spirits of the dead live alongside the Twili, and are the source of the emotions of suffering and malice. Of course, spirits don't naturally go the Twilight Realm; these spirits were sent there by the goddesses (if they're the dark tribe) or by the Sages (if they're later criminals).

No offense, but isn't that all, well, fanfic?

[Raien]

No offense, but isn't that all, well, fanfic?

On one hand, we are referred to spirits of malice and regret in the Twilight Realm. On the other hand, we are told that the Twili have found inner peace within the Twilight Realm. By the process of elimination, there have to be spirits within the Twilight Realm that possess these emotions, because the Twili certainly don't.

[Fyxe]

Out of context, yes, it would seem that way, but anything can be true if you quote out of context.

Also, you are rather conveniently forgetting Zant, who is a Twili. And, hell, Midna isn't exactly a bundle of zen when you first meet her, she all but hates the Light World.

Edited by Fyxe, 25 February 2008 - 03:04 PM.

[Raien]

Out of context, yes, it would seem that way, but anything can be true if you quote out of context.

But I'm not quoting out of context. The Twili have found inner peace in the Twilight Realm; Midna establishes this explicitly; this is the clear context of the Twili's presence within the Twilight Realm. Ganondorf and Rusl were both said to be affected (in completely different ways, mind you) by strong emotions coming from the Twilight Realm; this is a clear and explicit context. Thus, by taking the context into account, we can determine that the spirits of emotion are not the Twili.

Also, you are rather conveniently forgetting Zant, who is a Twili.

Ganondorf and Rusl refer to spirits of emotion in the plural, which means that there is more than one. Zant is not an entire tribe, unless you take the statement out of context.

And, hell, Midna isn't exactly a bundle of zen when you first meet her, she all but hates the Light World.

She has never spoken hatred for the Light World. Of course, she prefers the Twilight Realm because that is where she grew up and found affection for. And she resents Princess Zelda because her kingdom has lived in prosperity for so long and she does not know true suffering. But that doesn't mean that either Midna or the Twili weren't content living in the Twilight Realm. They found peace there until Ganondorf took over.

Edited by jhurvid, 25 February 2008 - 03:24 PM.

[SOAP]

Interesting theory. I don't think it's THE actual afterlife but it was made into a hell by the Sages as they actively sent criminals there. In other words, they were playing God. I think part of the process was that they killed their prisoners then sent their souls there but I do not recall. That's what they attempted with Ganondorf at least.

Actually I kinda assumed that the Dark Realm/World/Land was the afterlife. No real raeson other than it's a dark, and mysterious place that once was sacred to Hylians till Ganon tainted it.

[Fyxe]

Ganondorf and Rusl were both said to be affected (in completely different ways, mind you) by strong emotions coming from the Twilight Realm; this is a clear and explicit context. Thus, by taking the context into account, we can determine that the spirits of emotion are not the Twili.

Except that, if I remember correctly, Ganondorf attributes his revival down to the hatred inherant within the Twili, which are represented most fully in Zant. Zant effectively acts as a living metaphor for one of the Twili's ancient emotions. It's storytelling basics. Ganondorf has a similar thing going on. He is commonly referred to as the ruler of a band of evil thieves, but we know that the Gerudo were not actually evil. But they have come to be represented by the emotions of one man, who represents their underlying feelings of betrayal at having to live at the end of the world, cut off as they were in the desert.

She has never spoken hatred for the Light World. Of course, she prefers the Twilight Realm because that is where she grew up and found affection for. And she resents Princess Zelda because her kingdom has lived in prosperity for so long and she does not know true suffering. But that doesn't mean that either Midna or the Twili weren't content living in the Twilight Realm. They found peace there until Ganondorf took over.

In peace there or not, that doesn't stop them from hating the Light World if they want to. Midna DOES express distaste for the Light World. And then there's Ganondorf's line... 'Shadow has been moved by light, it seems...'

Anyway, your main mistake is not to take into account the amount of time Ganondorf has been in the Twilight Realm. It's likely that there were more Twili other than Zant that disliked the Light World, but he is the only one who has yet to find peace by the time Ganondorf is strong enough to use him. The Twili have a long and extensive history that we only hear minor snippets of. It is not one of simple tranquility, as you seem to suggest.

Midna's speech seemed to suggest that the majority of Twili had found peace, and that she was coming to terms with this herself. She was probably one of the few remaining Twili that still had lingering doubts and lingering distaste for the Light World, however small. Zant was another.

[Jumbie]

Is it not the case that the Dark World is referred to as hell (or makai, anyway) on a few occasions?

The Dark World is the Makai, that's been safely established by the games. But a makai is not hell in an afterlife sense.

The fact that both locations are referred to with terminology that could represent hell (and lets not forget that Ganon is a Demon King) means that neither of them are actually THE hell. Although the Dark World is the closest thing to hell in the Zelda series, especially given that it is seemingly a lingering and possibly endless presence in the Oracle games, Four Swords Adventures and others.

Well, my initial question involves neither the Dark World nor Ganon...
We shouldn't understand makai as a word for hell. Makai is the dominion of a Demon King, the home of his Demon Tribe, it's not typically the place where deceased sinners go.
Throughout the Zelda games, the use of makai is very consistent, always denoting the place where Ganon and his troops emerge from. This place is in OoT identified as the tainted Sacred Realm, i.e. the Dark World. Dark World is its name, Demon World is its form of government.

TP's Shadow World, on the other hand, is known to Hyruleans as anoyo (other world) and yuukai (hell). Neither of these terms has been used in a Zelda game before, as far as I'm aware (haven't checked every game, so I could be wrong).

Ganondorf and Rusl refer to spirits of emotion in the plural, which means that there is more than one. Zant is not an entire tribe, unless you take the statement out of context.

Rusl does *not* speak of spirits in the Japanese version, he speaks of the "people of the underworld" (who are obviously the Twili's ancestors). It's explicitly stated that the regrets lingering in Hyrule come from them.
Also, Ganondorf *never* speaks of spirits, he speaks of the Twili's agony and hatred. The Twili are not spirits, they're flesh and blood.
Of course Rusl talks about the entire tribe, but about the ancestors and not about the current Twili. He cannot possibly know they still exist as living beings somewhere.
...You should definitely double-check your sources.

I think part of the process was that they killed their prisoners then sent their souls there but I do not recall. That's what they attempted with Ganondorf at least.

Sorry, but none of that is ever implied in the Japanese version. It's what jhurvid claims too, but I don't see what he bases it on...

Except that, if I remember correctly, Ganondorf attributes his revival down to the hatred inherant within the Twili, which are represented most fully in Zant. Zant effectively acts as a living metaphor for one of the Twili's ancient emotions. It's storytelling basics. Ganondorf has a similar thing going on. He is commonly referred to as the ruler of a band of evil thieves, but we know that the Gerudo were not actually evil. But they have come to be represented by the emotions of one man, who represents their underlying feelings of betrayal at having to live at the end of the world, cut off as they were in the desert.

In peace there or not, that doesn't stop them from hating the Light World if they want to. Midna DOES express distaste for the Light World. And then there's Ganondorf's line... 'Shadow has been moved by light, it seems...'

Anyway, your main mistake is not to take into account the amount of time Ganondorf has been in the Twilight Realm. It's likely that there were more Twili other than Zant that disliked the Light World, but he is the only one who has yet to find peace by the time Ganondorf is strong enough to use him. The Twili have a long and extensive history that we only hear minor snippets of. It is not one of simple tranquility, as you seem to suggest.

Midna's speech seemed to suggest that the majority of Twili had found peace, and that she was coming to terms with this herself. She was probably one of the few remaining Twili that still had lingering doubts and lingering distaste for the Light World, however small. Zant was another.

Spot-on, your every word in this post is true^^


EDIT:
Hmm, actually it'd be pointless for the Shadow World to be hell if the spirits of the executed criminals first have to be sent there using the Mirror of Gloom... If it really was hell, the spirits should go there automatically, don't you think?
We have NO textual mention of spirits going to the Shadow World, and we have NO textual mention of the Mirror being used on anyone except Ganondorf and the Twili's ancestors.

Edited by Jumbie, 25 February 2008 - 07:20 PM.

[Raien]

Rusl does *not* speak of spirits in the Japanese version, he speaks of the "people of the underworld" (who are obviously the Twili's ancestors). It's explicitly stated that the regrets lingering in Hyrule come from them.
Also, Ganondorf *never* speaks of spirits, he speaks of the Twili's agony and hatred. The Twili are not spirits, they're flesh and blood.
Of course Rusl talks about the entire tribe, but about the ancestors and not about the current Twili. He cannot possibly know they still exist as living beings somewhere.

We've been through this point before. In Japanese mythology, strong emotions take spiritual forms. Watch Japanese horror films like The Ring or The Grudge, and the ghosts are referred to as spiritual energy; strong hatred that lingered after the people who felt that hatred died. The malice of the Twili's ancestors are the spiritual embodiments of their emotions, which is why I (and the NOA translation) refer to them as spirits, or as I now call them "spirits of emotion". As one example of their presence, the spirits of malice are clearly what caused the Stalfos to animate in the Arbiter's Grounds.

Now with this understanding in place, let's address the subject.

Except that, if I remember correctly, Ganondorf attributes his revival down to the hatred inherant within the Twili, which are represented most fully in Zant. Zant effectively acts as a living metaphor for one of the Twili's ancient emotions. It's storytelling basics.

Ganondorf refers to the Dark Tribe; the people who were sealed inside the Twilight Realm because they did not possess the power to defeat the Hyrulians. The Dark Tribe felt the strong emotions of hatred and regret upon their sealing, because they were shattered by the loss of their power. Midna tells us that over the time since the Dark Tribe were sealed away, the descendants of the Dark Tribe were ultimately transformed in both heart and body by their life in the Twilight Realm. In other words, the Twili are not the Dark Tribe; all they share is the history of how the Twili came to be.

Now, Rusl also felt spirits of emotion (in the plural) emanating from the Twilight Realm at the beginning of the game. Since these spirits of emotion, as Jumbie said, were left behind by the Twili's ancestors and can be felt upon the hour of Twilight (when the Light World interconnects with the Twilight Realm), this is clear evidence that the spirts of emotions left behind by the Twili's ancestors in the Twilight Realm are responsible for the feelings of sadness in Hyrule.

Zant desired to rule the Twili and lead them to take over Hyrule, and his malice sprang from the fact that his desires were refused by the Twili Royal Family; this is not the same malice that the Dark Tribe felt upon their sealing. Furthermore, Zant's malice is never connected to the malice of the Dark Tribe in the Japanese translation. Zant's malice is unique to his circumstance, and it is the reason why Ganondorf chose Zant as his follower. So by referring to the Dark Tribe's malice upon being sealed in the Twilight Realm, it is quite obvious that Ganondorf is not referring to Zant's malice for being denied the kingship. To suggest that they are the same malice takes the situation completely out of context.

Ganondorf has a similar thing going on. He is commonly referred to as the ruler of a band of evil thieves, but we know that the Gerudo were not actually evil. But they have come to be represented by the emotions of one man, who represents their underlying feelings of betrayal at having to live at the end of the world, cut off as they were in the desert.

In OoT, it was clear that there was wickedness to the Gerudo tribe without Ganondorf's influence. The imprisonment of the carpenters is but one example, and so is Nabooru's confession that Ganondorf led a group of thieves to steal from and murder people. So clearly Ganondorf was leading "evil thieves" and not just representing good thieves as their leader. And even though there was an underlying resentment at being betrayed by the goddesses, it wasn't strong enough to prevent many Gerudo, like Nabooru, from leading a life of nobilitiy.

In peace there or not, that doesn't stop them from hating the Light World if they want to.

You have ultimately to prove that the Twili hated the Light World. Otherwise, this is an assumption.

Midna DOES express distaste for the Light World.

Where? I searched the entire text dump, and all I found was this:

And I only cared about returning our world to normal...
I didn't care what happened to the world of light, not at all.

So Midna didn't care what happened to the Light World in order to bring peace back to the Twilight Realm, but that's hardly evidence that she was seething at the Light World from afar.

And then there's Ganondorf's line... 'Shadow has been moved by light, it seems...'

He's referring to the change of character from the hateful Dark Tribe to the peaceful Twili. Midna's defiance of Ganondorf is evidence that the hearts of the Twili have changed from the hearts of their ancestors.

Anyway, your main mistake is not to take into account the amount of time Ganondorf has been in the Twilight Realm. It's likely that there were more Twili other than Zant that disliked the Light World, but he is the only one who has yet to find peace by the time Ganondorf is strong enough to use him. The Twili have a long and extensive history that we only hear minor snippets of. It is not one of simple tranquility, as you seem to suggest.

This is based on assumptions. According to what Midna tells us:

-The Dark Tribe were sealed in the Twilight Realm, and possessed hatred and regret by this imprisonment.
-Over time, the Dark Tribe physically changed to become accustomed to the Twilight Realm; they became the Twili.
-Over time, the Dark Tribe forgot their malice and found inner peace within the Twilight Realm.
-After the Twili found inner peace, Ganondorf's magic invaded the kingdom.

There is no evidence that disharmony affected the kingdom before Zant took control with Ganondorf's magic.

Edited by jhurvid, 25 February 2008 - 07:44 PM.

[Jumbie]

We've been through this point before. In Japanese mythology, strong emotions take spiritual forms. Watch Japanese horror films like The Ring or The Grudge, and the ghosts are referred to as spiritual energy; strong hatred that lingered after the people who felt that hatred died. The malice of the Twili's ancestors are the spiritual embodiments of their emotions, which is why I (and the NOA translation) refer to them as spirits, or as I now call them "spirits of emotion". As one example of their presence, the spirits of malice are clearly what caused the Stalfos to animate in the Arbiter's Grounds.

Hm, I frankly forgot about that, because it's such a new and unfamiliar concept to me. I do think it possible that the game could incorporate also this part of Japanese mythology, especially since Auru really uses the word "grudge".

But the problem I had with what you said is that you were calling the lingering emotions "spirits", which is just so easy to confuse with the souls of deceased. TP doesn't call them spirits in the original, so we should only refer to them using Rusl's words, lingering sentiments, or Auru's, grudge.

Using the correct terminology, this concept is indeed supported by TP's text. The way you worded it all was *very* hard to follow, which explains our annoyed replies. But let's see what the others now think of the thing with the lingering grudge...

In OoT, it was clear that there was wickedness to the Gerudo tribe without Ganondorf's influence. The imprisonment of the carpenters is but one example, and so is Nabooru's confession that Ganondorf led a group of thieves to steal from and murder people.

Wait, the Gerudos were at that time lead by a possessed Nabooru, revering her and carrying out her orders she received from Twinrova or Ganondorf. The carpenters themselves realize that afterwards in the tent.

So clearly Ganondorf was leading "evil thieves" and not just representing good thieves as their leader.

Those are not necessarily the Gerudos. That is, except for Twinrova, who definitely are part of that gang according to the Japanese OoT. They also have their hideout inside the Spirit Temple like Nabooru says of Ganondorf's gang.
As for the other members, I suppose they are Hylian men, Moblins, and... I also think the Poes and Gobera in Arbiter's Grounds were in Ganondorf's gang, being executed there along with their leader. The Sages mention Ganondorf's gang of Demon Thieves, so I believe those to be some of the undeads in Arbiter's Grounds.

Edited by Jumbie, 25 February 2008 - 08:40 PM.

[Raien]

Using the correct terminology, this concept is indeed supported by TP's text. The way you worded it all was *very* hard to follow, which explains our annoyed replies. But let's see what the others now think of the thing with the lingering grudge...

Sorry, I thought I put it simply. To sum it up then, Rusl's speech is evidence that lingering grudge/malice of the Twili's ancestors exists in the Twilight Realm. If it weren't for American/European audiences being so unaware of this concept, it would have been much more obvious from the first playthrough. At that point, everything else fits into place; we don't need to place quotes into contexts that don't make sense, like Zant's malice being the Dark Tribe's malice.

Wait, the Gerudos were at that time lead by a possessed Nabooru, revering her and carrying out her orders she received from Twinrova or Ganondorf. The carpenters themselves realize that afterwards in the tent.

Oh yes. I forgot that.

Those are not necessarily the Gerudos. That is, except for Twinrova, who definitely are part of that gang according to the Japanese OoT. They also have their hideout inside the Spirit Temple like Nabooru says of Ganondorf's gang.

I always thought it was obvious that "Ganondorf's followers" were Gerudo, because Ganondorf is their king and they would not accept outsiders.

As for the other members, I suppose they are Hylian men, Moblins, and... I also think the Poes and Gobera in Arbiter's Grounds were in Ganondorf's gang, being executed there along with their leader. The Sages mention Ganondorf's gang of Demon Thieves, so I believe those to be some of the undeads in Arbiter's Grounds.

I thought it was quite clear that Nabooru was referring specifically to humans when she talked about Ganondorf's actions in plunder and murder. And although Ganondorf was certainly using evil magic before he took the Triforce of Power, the monsters don't really become the "Tribe of Evil" until Ganondorf assumes the identity of "King of Darkness".

Edited by jhurvid, 25 February 2008 - 09:05 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

We've been through this point before. In Japanese mythology, strong emotions take spiritual forms. Watch Japanese horror films like The Ring or The Grudge, and the ghosts are referred to as spiritual energy; strong hatred that lingered after the people who felt that hatred died. The malice of the Twili's ancestors are the spiritual embodiments of their emotions, which is why I (and the NOA translation) refer to them as spirits, or as I now call them "spirits of emotion". As one example of their presence, the spirits of malice are clearly what caused the Stalfos to animate in the Arbiter's Grounds.

There's a bit of a difference between ghosts and "lol weird esoteric manifestations of emotions." Trust me on this, I was one of the first people to bring up that particular piece of mythos.

Hm, I frankly forgot about that, because it's such a new and unfamiliar concept to me. I do think it possible that the game could incorporate also this part of Japanese mythology, especially since Auru really uses the word "grudge".

But the problem I had with what you said is that you were calling the lingering emotions "spirits", which is just so easy to confuse with the souls of deceased. TP doesn't call them spirits in the original, so we should only refer to them using Rusl's words, lingering sentiments, or Auru's, grudge.

The "Grudge" franchise is a very, very loose interpretation of mythology. It'd be like citing Yugioh for facts on the Egyptian religion.

[SOAP]

This is based on assumptions. According to what Midna tells us:

-The Dark Tribe were sealed in the Twilight Realm, and possessed hatred and regret by this imprisonment.
-Over time, the Dark Tribe physically changed to become accustomed to the Twilight Realm; they became the Twili.
-Over time, the Dark Tribe forgot their malice and found inner peace within the Twilight Realm.
-After the Twili found inner peace, Ganondorf's magic invaded the kingdom.

There is no evidence that disharmony affected the kingdom before Zant took control with Ganondorf's magic.

WARNING! Crazy, runaway Soap Theory coming up: What if they found their inner peace because Ganondorf absorbed all their hatredl?

Just a thought.

[Raien]

There's a bit of a difference between ghosts and "lol weird esoteric manifestations of emotions." Trust me on this, I was one of the first people to bring up that particular piece of mythos.

The "Grudge" franchise is a very, very loose interpretation of mythology. It'd be like citing Yugioh for facts on the Egyptian religion.

I see. In which case, the malice and regret in the Twilight Realm would certainly fall under the category of spiritual manifestation of emotion, as opposed to actual ghosts.

[MikePetersSucks]

And here we are, still, without any evidence that that's actually the case except for an old guy who doesn't even know all the facts and bound by superstition.

[Raien]

And here we are, still, without any evidence that that's actually the case except for an old guy who doesn't even know all the facts and bound by superstition.

We know that there is a strong emotional presence emanating from the Twilight Realm, and we know that the Twili are not the source of that emotional presence. It all comes down to the process of elimination that leads us to the conclusion that the emotions came from the Twili's ancestors before they died, which is inferred by Rusl, whether or not he truly knew what he was talking about.

Now I'm interested to hear what Fyxe has to say on the argument. She accused me of taking the quotes out of context, and I have explained with the evidence why I believe the context to be correct. If we have to agree to disagree, then fine by me, but lets get this discussion done and dusted instead of waiting for it to repeat so I have to validate my argument for a third time (because I'm certain I've said all I've said before).

Edited by jhurvid, 26 February 2008 - 09:25 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

We know that there is a strong emotional presence emanating from the Twilight Realm, and we know that the Twili are not the source of that emotional presence.

We do?

[Raien]

We do?

Yes, because the Twili had found peace within the Twilight Realm; they no longer possessed the pain and malice of their ancestors. "Shadow has turned to light, it seems."

[MikePetersSucks]

Yes, because the Twili had found peace within the Twilight Realm; they no longer possessed the pain and malice of their ancestors. "Shadow has turned to light, it seems."

And that's supposed to mean that disembodied malice is floating around and cursing mirrors and stuff? The hell?

[LionHarted]

I should think the Mirror sending people to hell serves as an adequate reason for it being cursed.

[Raien]

And that's supposed to mean that disembodied malice is floating around and cursing mirrors and stuff? The hell?

That, and the fact that Auru tells us criminal malice lingered in the Arbiter's Grounds. It's an active part of Japanese mythology and it's openly referred to in TP; are you that unwilliing to accept that it exists in the Zelda series?

Edited by jhurvid, 27 February 2008 - 02:12 PM.

[Fyxe]

This argument is becoming more than a little circular, so since you asked to hear what I think, I'll reply here...

jhurvid, understanding that you did not mean spirits in the literal sense means I understand your intention on that point at least. You probably shouldn't use the word 'spirit' though. It's just confusing because in many respects, we are talking about physical spirits alongside this 'malignant essense' you are describing. It's quite clear that emotional essenses exist in the Zelda series and Ganondorf seems to make reference to it during one of his speeches. However, that is only in reference to him 'feeding' of it, which might mean little more than the presence of such malice in the Twilight Realm kept him strong simply because it spoke to his soul, what with him being the King of Darkness. In fact, this is what I took from what he said. Seemed the obvious explaination.

I also believe the Twili, or at least the ancient Twili's lingering regrets to be the source of this malice (which live on in Zant as well), since he refers to the Twili in the same context. Frankly, I can't think of anything else it could be. We know nothing else about the Twilight Realm to suggest that it'd be anything else.

[Raien]

jhurvid, understanding that you did not mean spirits in the literal sense means I understand your intention on that point at least. You probably shouldn't use the word 'spirit' though. It's just confusing because in many respects, we are talking about physical spirits alongside this 'malignant essense' you are describing.

Agreed. I did explain it a couple of times before this, but I'll make sure not to use that definition again this time.

It's quite clear that emotional essenses exist in the Zelda series and Ganondorf seems to make reference to it during one of his speeches.

Auru also referred to it lingering in the Arbiter's Grounds, but I see from your next point that we can agree that disembodied malice does exist in this series.

However, that is only in reference to him 'feeding' of it, which might mean little more than the presence of such malice in the Twilight Realm kept him strong simply because it spoke to his soul, what with him being the King of Darkness. In fact, this is what I took from what he said. Seemed the obvious explaination.

There's nothing wrong with that meaning at all. Take the saying "A smile is infective. Smile at someone and they start smiling too." and change "smile" to any emotion. By strengthening people's emotions from within, disembodied emotion can cause people to focus their energy, as Ganondorf did to revive himself.

I also believe the Twili, or at least the ancient Twili's lingering regrets to be the source of this malice (which live on in Zant as well), since he refers to the Twili in the same context. Frankly, I can't think of anything else it could be. We know nothing else about the Twilight Realm to suggest that it'd be anything else.

So we just disagree on the source of the malice in the Twilight Realm. The debate then really comes down to how we perceive the Twili to be feeling about their situation. You said earlier how Midna told us her distate for the Light World, but I went through the text dump and couldn't find a quote to make that reference. I think that the Twili have found inner peace within the Twilight Realm; they're no longer regretting being trapped there, but they're enjoying the Twilight Realm for the "serene beauty" that it possesses. I compare this change with the Gerudo from OoT to FSA, who in the Japanese translation were said to "honour and co-operate with the desert." No more reference to fell winds as Ganondorf said in TWW, but an actual appreciation of the environment. Unless Ganondorf was an exception of course, like Zant, but you see my point.

Edited by jhurvid, 27 February 2008 - 01:03 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I should think the Mirror sending people to hell serves as an adequate reason for it being cursed.

The Twilight Realm is hardly hell, and even so, the only people sent through were the Twili and Ganondorf. Why would a Goddess artifact be allowed to become cursed over a mere two extensive uses, if at all?

That, and the fact that Auru tells us criminal malice lingered in the Arbiter's Grounds. It's an active part of Japanese mythology and it's openly referred to in TP; are you that unwilliing to accept that it exists in the Zelda series?

I'm fine with it existing in the Zelda Series, but not in this instance. Auru has shown himself to not only be misinformed, but the malice line you're so fond of is US-based.

[Raien]

I'm fine with it existing in the Zelda Series, but not in this instance. Auru has shown himself to not only be misinformed, but the malice line you're so fond of is US-based.

According to Jumbie's translation, "malice" becomes "grudge of the dead" which is pretty much the same thing. It's true that Auru was misinformed, but surely he believed the Twilight Realm to be an afterlife for the same reason that Rusl, who didn't talk to the Sages, believed so; because there was hateful/regretful emotions emanating from that location. Given that Rusl and Auru are friends, it wouldn't be surprising that they came to such a conclusion together.