1600 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

I could do with just the music of FSA, especially if it includes Navi Trackers. o.o

[Jumbie]

Yeah, I'd also like to say that I really appreciate all the work Jumbie has done so the fans can clear up some stuff. Great job.

I haven't been debating here for a while, but can I just say very well done to Jumbie for the work he's put into translating the Japanese texts? I'm very interested in reading about the Trident. I hope we can establish how Ganondorf in FSA relates to his predecessor in OoT.

Am I on the right lines in thinking that Ganondorf in FSA is the evil spirit of Ganondorf from OoT that was revived by the power of the Trident? The inscription next to the Trident still sounds to me like it's heralding the arrival of Ganondorf to take the Trident.

Glad that you appreciate it!
And yes, I really ought to get to FSA now (so many people requesting it...).

But for now, I've done another important passage from TP, namely Ganondorf's chitchat with Midna prior to the boss battle.
So, towards the end NoA was getting ever more inventive, making up *complete sentences* just for the sake of it...

Ganondorf:

ようこそ、我が城へ
Welcome to my castle.
Welcome to my castle.

Midna:

オマエが・・・ガノンドロフか・・・　死ぬほど　会いたかったぜ
So you're… Ganondorf… I've been dying to meet you.
So you're...Ganondorf. I've been dying to meet you.

Ganondorf:

わずかな力を宿した程度で、神に逆らい　見捨てられた　哀れな一族よ
Pitiful clan, to defy the gods with so little power, only to be forsaken.
Your people have long amused me, Midna. To defy the gods with such petty magic, only to be cast aside... How very pathetic.

お前達の苦悶が、血肉の糧となり
Your agony was the nourishment for my flesh and blood.
Pathetic as they were, though, they served me well. Their anguish was my nourishment.

憎悪は力となって、我を目覚めさせた
The hatred turned into power, and awakened me.
Their hatred bled across the void and awakened me. I drew deep of it and grew strong again.

お前達　一族に欠けていたもの・・・それは、力
The thing your clan lacked… that is power.
Your people had some skill, to be sure...but they lacked true power.

神に選ばれし強者のみが持つ絶対なる力
That absolute power which only a strong person chosen by the gods wields.
The kind of absolute power that those chosen by the gods wield.

その力を支配する者こそがこの世を統べる王にふさわしい
For sure, he who commands that power makes a suitable king to rule this world.
He who wields such power would make a suitable king for this world, don't you think?

Midna:

・・・自惚れるなよ！
…How conceited!
Ha! Such conceit!

オマエが、絶対なる力を持つ選ばれし者だと言うならば
If it is as you say, if you are the chosen one to have the absolute power,
But if you are one of the chosen wielders of power, as you claim...

ワタシは、全てをかけて否定してやるよ！
I will risk everything to deny you!
I will risk everything to deny you!

Ganondorf:

影が光に、[?]されたか・・・ 面白い！
Shadow has been [?] by light, it seems… Amusing!
Shadow has been moved by light, it seems... ...How amusing.

ならば、否定してみるがよい
Well then, try to deny me!
Very well... Deny me, then!

その友情とやらでな！
With that friendship!
Yes, try to deny me... You and your little friend...

光と影を統べる王に弓引く　愚か者よ
Take up arms against the king ruling over light and shadow, you idiots.
Both of you, faithless fools who would dare to take up arms against the king of light and shadow...

Notes:
- The Twilis' hatred did not actually bleed across any void.
- Ganondorf doesn't acknowledge the Twili were skilled.
- He refers to the chosen wielder of power as a "strong person". It seems to be only him, but we cannot tell for sure.
- He ridicules Midna's and Link's friendship, probably disliking this as a value.

The King of Red Lions is one of the navigators the player can choose from in Navi Trackers/Tetra's Trackers. The sound track when you select him is officially named "ナビゲータ選択:赤獅子" which translates to "Navigator Select: Red Lion". They shortened his name from "赤獅子の王" to "赤獅子", omitting the "王/King" (and the "の" that was not a possessive particle in the first place but rather a suffix to connect the two terms). Therefore, his real name is Red Lion King, not King of Red Lions.

I have no idea how you can tell that it shouldn't be translated to King of Red Lions, because I would do so.

Edited by Jumbie, 17 November 2007 - 11:11 PM.

[Prime Blue]

I have no idea how you can tell that it shouldn't be translated to King of Red Lions, because I would do so.

The trick is that the name got shortened in the official track title, simply omitting the "king". Which tells us that the "king" shouldn't be the most important term in the name, as it also works as just "Red Lion". It's...kind of hard to explain.
Anyways, the actual game gives his full title (which also means I will call it "Navigator Select: King of Red Lions" in the rip). Which makes me wonder if Ohta made a mistake when naming the track.

[FDL]

I keep thinking Ganondorf seems to be talking about more than just the Triforce of Power when he mentions power. Like the ToP and his magic just representing everything else. But the JP version seems to make the theme of "power corrupts" even more obvious, which is interesting.

[Fyxe]

I prefer the elebarated dialogue of the official translations, it seems more poetic, but the Japanese version is a hell of a lot more obvious and leaves less for people to speculate over. The whole 'divine prank' stuff doesn't really mesh with the Japanese dialogue at all.

[LionHarted]

This does quite significantly depart from the idea that Ganondorf is actually chosen; he simply believes himself to be, and such is his conceit.

[FDL]

I agree, Lionharted. I noticed that as well.

[Showsni]

Thread split. Please, start a new topic if you want to debate a translation here, don't do it in this thread.

[Jumbie]

Still not done with the FSA portion, because I'm lazy and arbitrary...
But I got something else. Twilight Princess, Rusl in the Faron Woods, about the Temple of Time:

この深い谷の向こう・・・
On the far side of this deep valley...
Do you know about the far side of this deep gorge?

聖なる力で護られた森の奥深くに　悠久の時を眠る神殿があると言われている
It is said that deep in the bowels of the forest, guarded by a sacred power, there is a temple sleeping for all eternity.
Some say there is an ancient temple deep in the woods that guards a sacred power.

ハイリア人の祖先によって造られたその神殿には、今もなお古代の優れた文明が遺されているらしい
In that temple created by the ancestors of the Hylia people, the excelling culture of ancient times seems to be left even now.
The ancestors of the Hylians created the temple... Signs of their civilization--ancient, but very sophisticated--are everywhere.

Japanese states why the Temple of Time was preserved in its past state: to be able to remain "for all eternity".
Now, based on that, I've come up with a little theory.

In TP we travelled back inside the temple to a time where it was still standing in all its splendour. But consider this: What if this same 'time space' already existed back in OoT, and the Hero of Time actually entered it by passing the Door of Time? (We certainly wouldn't notice since the temple was just as intact during OoT.)

First of all, it would reconcile the seemingly different functions of the Door of Time in OoT and TP as them being the very same all along.
Secondly, it would give the Temple of Time a perfect justification for its name, already in times long before TP.
And most importantly, it would enable the temple to truly guard the entrance to the Sacred Realm for all eternity, since it always remains intact in that past space (granted that no one destroys it while in the past).

The problem, however, is how to connect that past space with the Sacred Realm. Always being able to enter a past version of the SR feels unsettling? Postulating an atemporal SR is taboo? And being transported from the past temple to the present-time SR is illogical as well?

[CID Farwin]

Wow, this actually changes things a lot. In the Japanese the Temple is being guarded by a sacred power, sleeping for eternity. This is opposed to the Temple guarding a sacred power, the obvious implications for which being the Master Sword.

That, in conjunction with the "Temple sleeping for eternity" for me seems to add credence to the 'old decrepit temple is an illusion' theory.

[Kairu Hakubi]

It smacks of the whole "and the master sword sleeps forever! (oh wait no it doesn't!)" thing. Obviously the master sword's chamber in TP was supposed to look like the one in ALttP.

[CID Farwin]

No...



Not at all

Edited by CID Farwin, 09 December 2007 - 01:23 AM.

[Jumbie]

That, in conjunction with the "Temple sleeping for eternity" for me seems to add credence to the 'old decrepit temple is an illusion' theory.

Oh, I actually hadn't heard that theory before - not uninteresting. Sounds just like how Muggles can't see Hogwarts castle but only some old ruins in its stead, ne?


Now, I've been doing some research on the Japanese text of OoT. Overall I must say that they translated OoT a lot more faithful into English than they did TP. But nonetheless, and especially since it's being debated in the other thread right now, I thought I'd let you all check upon the original script of...

THE LEGEND OF THE TRIFORCE (Sheik/Zelda's speech before being captured):

聖なる三角の在るところ…　聖地は己の心を映す鏡なり。
The place where the sacred triangle is, the Sacred Realm, is a mirror that reflects one's heart.
The resting place of the sacred triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a mirror that reflects what is in the heart...

そこに　足踏み入れし者の心、邪悪なれば　魔界と化し、清らかなれば　楽園となる。
If the heart of one who enters it is evil, it turns into a Makai [Demon World]; if the heart is pure, it turns into a paradise.
the heart of one who enters it... If an evil heart, the Realm will become full of evil; if pure, the Realm will become a paradise.

トライフォース…　聖なる三角…　それは　力、知恵、そして勇気…　三つの心をはかる　天秤なり。
The Triforce... the sacred triangle... it is a pair of scales that weighs the three cores... Power, Wisdom and Courage.
The Triforce… the sacred triangle… it is a balance that weighs the three forces: Power, Wisdom and Courage.

聖三角に触れし者…　三つの力を　あわせ持つならば　万物を統べる　真の力を得ん。
If one who touches the sacred triangle... has the three forces in balance, that one will gain the True Force to govern all.
If the heart of the one who holds the sacred triangle has all three forces in balance, that one will gain the True Force to govern all.

しかし…　その力なき者ならば　聖三角は　力、知恵、勇気の三つに　砕け散るであろう。
If however… that one doesn't have all forces, then the sacred triangle will separate into three: Power, Wisdom and Courage.
But, if that one's heart is not in balance, the Triforce will separate into three parts: Power, Wisdom and Courage.

あとに　残りしものは　三つの内の　一つのみ…　それが、その者の　信ずる心なり。
Afterwards, only one of the three remains... that is the core which that one believes in.
Only one part will remain for the one who touched the Triforce...the part representing the force that one most believes in.

もし、真の力を　欲するならば　失った二つの力を　取り戻すべし。
If that one seeks the True Force, that one should recover the two lost forces.
If that one seeks the True Force, that one must acquire the two lost parts.

その二つの力…　神により　新たに選ばれし者の手の甲に　宿るものなり。
Those two forces… will reside on the backs of the hands of those newly chosen by the gods.
Those two parts will be held within others chosen by destiny, who will bear the Triforce mark on the backs of their hands.

ガノンドロフ… 奴は七年前、キミが開いた時の神殿の扉をくぐり、聖地へ到達した。
Ganondorf... Seven years ago when you opened the door in the Temple of Time, that guy sneaked in and arrived at the Sacred Realm.
Seven years ago, Ganondorf, the King of Thieves, used the door you opened in the Temple of Time and entered the Sacred Realm.

しかし…　奴がトライフォースを手にした時、伝説は現実となった…
But… when he laid his hands on the Triforce, the legend came true…
But when he laid his hands on the Triforce, the legend came true.

トライフォースは３つに砕け、ガノンドロフの手に残ったのは　力のトライフォースのみだった。
When the Triforce broke in three, what remained in Ganondorf's hand was only the Triforce of Power.
The Triforce separated into three parts. Only the Triforce of Power remained in Ganondorf's hand.

奴は　トライフォースの力によって　魔王となったが、その野望は　果てることはなかった。
The guy, through the strength of the Triforce, became a Maou [Demon King], but his ambitions did not stop there.
The strength of the Triforce of Power enabled him to become a mighty, evil king, but his dark ambitions were not satisfied.

完全な支配のため、ガノンドロフは　残る２つの　トライフォースを持つ　神に選ばれし者を　探し始めた…
To gain complete control, Ganondorf started looking for those chosen by the Gods to hold the remaining two Triforces...
To gain complete mastery of the world, Ganondorf started looking for those chosen by destiny to hold the two other Triforce parts.

その一人は、勇気のトライフォース　宿りし者…　時の勇者…　リンク。
The one in whom the Triforce of Courage resides… is the Hero of Time… Link.
The one who holds the Triforce of Courage is... You, Link!

そして、もう一人…　知恵のトライフォース　宿りし者…　賢者の長となる　七人目の賢者…
And the other one… in whom the Triforce of Wisdom resides… will be the leader of the Sages, the seventh in their midst…
And the other, who holds the Triforce of Wisdom... is the seventh Sage, who is destined to be the leader of them all...

この私…　ハイラル王女　ゼルダです。
It is I... the Princess of Hyrule, Zelda.
It is I, the Princess of Hyrule, Zelda.
[…]
七年前の　あの日…　ハイラル城は、ガノンドロフの　　襲撃を　受けました…
On that day seven years ago, Hyrule Castle was attacked by Ganondorf.
On that day, seven years ago, Ganondorf attacked Hyrule Castle.
[…]
時の扉を開いた　あなたの魂を　マスターソードが　聖地に封印してしまうなんて…
After you opened the door of time, the Master Sword sealed your soul in the Sacred Realm...
After you opened the door of time, the Master Sword sealed you away in the Sacred Realm...

あなたの魂は　聖地に封印され…　トライフォースは、まんまとガノンドロフの手に…
With your soul sealed in the Sacred Realm... Ganondorf successfully got the Triforce in his hands...
Your spirit remained in the Sacred Realm...and then the Triforce fell into Ganondorf's hands. He went on to invade the Sacred Realm...

ガノンドロフは　魔王となり、聖地は　魔界と化した。それらは　すべて　不幸な偶然…
Ganondorf turned into a Maou [Demon King], and the Sacred Realm was transformed into a Makai [Demon World]. All these disasters were entirely fortuitous...
Ganondorf had become the Evil King, and the Sacred Realm became a world of evil. All of this is an unfortunate coincidence.

私は、シーカー族に　なりすまし、あなたが　戻ってくることを　信じ、七年待ちました。
I masqueraded as a Sheikah, believed that you would return, and waited for seven years.
I passed myself off as a Sheikah and hoped that you would return. I waited for seven years...

そして…　あなたが　帰ってきた今、魔王ガノンドロフの　支配する　暗黒の時代は　終わるのです！
And… now that you have returned, the age of darkness [ankoku] under the rule of the Maou Ganondorf will come to an end!
And...now you are back. The dark age ruled by Ganondorf the Evil King will end!

六賢者たちが開いた　封印に　ガノンドロフを　引き込み、　私が　こちらの世界から閉じる…
I will lure Ganondorf into the seal which the Six Sages opened, and close it from this world...
The six Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm. I will then seal the door to the Sacred Realm from this world.

それで　魔王ガノンドロフは　この世から　消えるでしょう。
Thus, the Maou Ganondorf will hopefully vanish from this world.
Thus, Ganondorf the Evil King will vanish from Hyrule.

リンク…　それには　あなたの勇気が　必要です。もう一度　力を貸してください。
Link... your courage is necessary for that. Please lend me your power once more.
Link... In order to do this, I need your courage again. Please protect me while I do my part.

魔王の守りを　破るもの…　選ばれし者に　神が与えたもう力…　聖なる　光の矢を！！
This breaks the Maou's defenses... the power given by the Gods to the chosen ones... The sacred Arrow of Light!!
And here is a weapon that can penetrate the Evil King's defenses... The power given to the chosen ones... The sacred Arrow of Light!!!

Notes:
I've never brought that up before.. but NoA's translations "Evil Realm" and "Evil King" are wrong. They really fail to convey an understanding of what the two described things actually are like.
Although we all know that the "Evil Realm" is Makai in Japanese, that word should definitely be translated as "Demon World", or better even, left as is, since it's a very common term from Japanese fiction. The same applies to the Demon King or Maou. Maou could also be translated into devil, but considering that Japanese has many more words for devil, that is not the best solution.

Looking for the Makai+Maou concept in other videogames/manga, we find that the Makai is not necessarily hell, but just the dominion of a Maou. Any being could develop into a great and evil Maou, which fits perfectly with Ganondorf the human becoming a demon. Now as for him turning the Sacred Realm into his Makai, that basically says that Ganondorf profitted from the SR mechanic which Sheik mentioned in that legend (that the SR mirrors the heart), and so automatically got his very own Demon World created. Elsewhere in OoT, it says that here is where Ganon bred his evil horde. The exact same thing is said in Oracles and in AoL.

What we really need to comprehend is that foremost, Makai signifies the *dominion* of a Maou, not so much the actual location/world. This means several things: It is conceivable that Ganondorf try to extend his Makai over the country Hyrule. And, it is now perfectly possible that his Makai indeed remains throughout Hyrule's history, as evidenced by AoL and Oracles.

Edited by Jumbie, 11 December 2007 - 09:15 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Thank you, Jumbie. I'll make sure that this goes to good use. There's quite a few different things in here...

Oh, I actually hadn't heard that theory before - not uninteresting. Sounds just like how Muggles can't see Hogwarts castle but only some old ruins in its stead, ne?

Quite.

[Arturo]

I will lure Ganondorf into the seal which the Six Sages opened, and close it from this world...

Isn't this... more interesting? I am honestly confused about this quote...

[CID Farwin]

Hm, I was going to say something about that. It's very interesting how the seal has apparently already been opened.

It should also be noted that 'destiny' doesn't come up in the Japanese, but rather 'chosen by the Gods' which is the same as in TWW/TP.

[Raien]

This has some interesting implications for AoL's Underworld (namely the Demon World described in that game). I always imagined it was an alternate dimension to Hyrule (because of the translation "World of Spirits"), but now I figure that isn't necessarily the case. It could be a part of Hyrule, or on the borders of Hyrule, which Ganon has established his dominion.

I like this discovery. THANKS JUMBIE!

Edited by jhurvid, 13 December 2007 - 09:22 AM.

[Fyxe]

What is it about the translation that makes you think that? Of course, it was always the case that the 'makai' referenced in Zelda II could be, well, anywhere, alternate dimension or not, it's not really covered in any detail.

I'm not sure about that translation anyway. Why would the seal already be open? How can a seal be open if it isn't even created? That's a bit confusing. I'm not sure if 'seal' is the best translation of what the Japanese is trying to say, maybe.

[Raien]

What is it about the translation that makes you think that? Of course, it was always the case that the 'makai' referenced in Zelda II could be, well, anywhere, alternate dimension or not, it's not really covered in any detail.

Well, I think it was more to do with what I was previously theorising. Although I wasn't certain, I had the idea that Ganon was merging the Makai with other realms (such as the Sacred Realm in ALTTP, or Hyrule in FSA). But what this explanation suggests is that the Dark World is literally just a world covered in Darkness. So in FSA, the Dark World just represents that Ganon is in the process of covering Hyrule in Darkness; it is not necessarily a merging of two worlds.

Edited by jhurvid, 14 December 2007 - 09:16 PM.

[LionHarted]

Why would the seal already be open? How can a seal be open if it isn't even created? That's a bit confusing. I'm not sure if 'seal' is the best translation of what the Japanese is trying to say, maybe.

They were sealing evil throughout the course of the game, if you paid attention. (Darunia spells it out.)

And, jhurvid, there could be a difference between a "makai" (generic demon world) and "makai" (the underworld from which Ganon summons minions), just as there is a difference between a "maou" (generic demonic king) and "maou" (the King of Darkness, Ganon).

Edited by LionHarted, 15 December 2007 - 02:56 AM.

[Raien]

And, jhurvid, there could be a difference between a "makai" (generic demon world) and "makai" (the underworld from which Ganon summons minions), just as there is a difference between a "maou" (generic demonic king) and "maou" (the King of Darkness, Ganon).

If "makai" is referring to Ganon's "dominion", then it could refer to any number of things, from an area on a map to alternate dimensions. But my point is that the way Ganon extends his Makai is by covering an area in Darkness, and that puts me in doubt as to whether there is a merging process of two dimensions taking place, as I used to believe.

[jacensolo06]

I'm not sure if 'seal' is the best translation of what the Japanese is trying to say, maybe.

The Japanese word used there, 封印, translates literally to "seal" or "stamp", so that's kind of the only appropriate translation.

[Fyxe]

They were sealing evil throughout the course of the game, if you paid attention. (Darunia spells it out.)

Please don't be patronising. I did pay attention. I don't think Link killing the Dungeon Masters has anything to do with the seal that was involved in Ganon's defeat, was it? They're distinctly different things, I always figured. Purging the evil that is seeping from the temples doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the seal at the end of the game, does it?

[Arturo]

I have just been reminded of this quote, within the OoT text, taht appears nowhere in the game:

Oh sealed door opened by the
Sages... Close forever with
the Evil Incarnation of Darkness
within!!

[CID Farwin]

Yeah, that rang up in my mind, too. It's probably something to do with OoT not being finished.

Or maybe the Japanese uses that quote, and it doesn't elsewhere.

Alas, I don't have any idea either way.

[Showsni]

It seems quite obvious... The Sages open up the seal on the SR, shove Ganon inside, then close it again.

The seal is the one that was created during the IW, centuries ago, obviously.

[Raien]

Showsni makes an interesting point. We all know the entrance to the Sacred Realm was blocked by the Door of Time and the Master Sword, so what if they formed a seal on the Sacred Realm? This would suggest that when Link opened the Door and pulled out the Master Sword, he opened the seal, but did not break it. The Sages would then have to give strength to the seal in order to hold Ganon's power.

Edited by jhurvid, 16 December 2007 - 02:49 PM.

[Kairu Hakubi]

Not at all

K sorry it looks exactly like it.

[Jumbie]

I'm not sure about that translation anyway. Why would the seal already be open? How can a seal be open if it isn't even created? That's a bit confusing.

I believe somewhere else, in NoA's version, it is stated that Ganondorf sealed the Sacred Realm after invading it. That may be where the seal comes from.

And, jhurvid, there could be a difference between a "makai" (generic demon world) and "makai" (the underworld from which Ganon summons minions), just as there is a difference between a "maou" (generic demonic king) and "maou" (the King of Darkness, Ganon).

No differentiation is needed. Ganon is a *generic* Maou, but at the same time the *only* Maou in the Zelda world. Other demons, i.e. Vaati and Bellum, are described as Majin (a different type of demon). However, the title "King of Darkness" (Yami no Ou) doesn't actually replace Ganon's Maou nature.

And Japanese never spoke of any underworld (other than the LoZ dungeons). Ganon's minions are repeatedly summoned from his Makai, and during OoT he turned the Sacred Realm into his Makai, so why can one and the same terminology not simply refer to the same thing?

I have just been reminded of this quote, within the OoT text, taht appears nowhere in the game:

Oh sealed door opened by the
Sages... Close forever with
the Evil Incarnation of Darkness
within!!

But in fact, that says nothing else than the actually used quote does:

Ancient Creators of Hyrule!
Now, open the sealed door and send the Evil Incarnation of Darkness into the void of the Evil Realm!!

[LionHarted]

I don't think Link killing the Dungeon Masters has anything to do with the seal that was involved in Ganon's defeat, was it? They're distinctly different things, I always figured. Purging the evil that is seeping from the temples doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the seal at the end of the game, does it?

They needed the seventh sage to "make a perfect seal" or something to that effect.

Ganon is a *generic* Maou, but at the same time the *only* Maou in the Zelda world.

Prettttty sure Zant tried to call himself the same, and that Vaati was at first perceived to be the "King of Darkness" (Ganon's title).

Edited by LionHarted, 16 December 2007 - 11:13 PM.