96 replies to this topic

[Jumbie]

the Dark Mirror was hidden in the Forest of Light (obviously because the Light represses the Darkness in the mirror)

That's a good thought that never occurred to me!

If the Dark Tribe were not sealed within the Mirror to make it Dark, then it's most probable that, like with the Twilight Mirror, the lingering malice of the spirits that were sealed away left an imprint on the mirror.

I agree.

Just to make sure, is one of the parts you're working on this one?

I haven't looked at this one yet. But Midna's reaction to it can be found here.

[LionHarted]

Commentary on the Mirror:

- I'd like to see the comments on it being "severed from this world" (spoken by one of the maidens) examined to better ascertain why it was moved to the Forest of Light, and what this exactly means. I imagine it being similar to what happens to the Twilight Realm when Midna breaks the mirror in the end; the worlds are now severed because the tie between them is lost (or, in this case, cut off).
- It seems to be exactly like the Mirror of Twilight now.

[Impossible]

The last thing I posted would be really useful, if you could translate it in the near future, because it relates to a discussion I'm having with someone else at the moment.

- It seems to be exactly like the Mirror of Twilight now.

Not really. It's the same in history, but completely different in function. The Mirror of Twilight is never given any specific connection to the Twili (other than only their true leader being able to destroy it), and has no power relating to them, their magic, or the Twilight Realm. It's only a gateway. The Dark Mirror, however, contains the power of the tribe sealed in/by it. The Dark World in FSA works NOTHING like the Twilight Realm (it's not even worth trying to draw parallels because they fall apart at any close inspection), and it comes out of the mirror in a way that implies that the Dark Mirror, unlike the Mirror of Twilight, is directly linked to the dark powers of that tribe. The Shadow Links also suggest this, and that makes no sense if it's the Mirror of Twilight. The Japanese text doesn't rule out the possibility of the world they were sealed in being inside the mirror, as it's not specific and those details would not be known anyway (since it's a legend). Otherwise, it just has to be a completely different realm. Their functions are so vastly different, and the only similarity is that a dark tribe was sealed inside of them. I just can't imagine TP's plot was heavily influenced by FSA's in that way - only the opposite would make much sense, and that's just not possible.

The Mirror of Twilight is also significantly bigger than the Dark Mirror, which seems to be able to be carried easily by one person.

In any case, the mirror is destroyed after TP, and even if you go against the TP/FSA/ALttP connections and put FSA in the Adult Timeline, I find the mirror getting from where it is in the desert to the forest in FSA very hard to explain, especially with the flood.

Before we make any final judgements, I'd like to at least see other things relating to the mirror, such as the maiden's comments.

[Raien]

The Mirror of Twilight is never given any specific connection to the Twili (other than only their true leader being able to destroy it), and has no power relating to them, their magic, or the Twilight Realm.

Although the Twilight Mirror certainly has no relationship with the Dark Tribe's shadow magic, it almost certainly gets its evil nature from the lingering malice that surrounds it in the Arbiter's Grounds, and which comes from the Twilight Realm. The Twili's ancestors are at least the source of malice in the Twilight Realm. It is not at all improbable that the malice of FSA's Dark Tribe left an imprint on the Dark Mirror just as TP's Dark Tribe did on the Twilight Mirror.

But you are correct otherwise; the history of the two mirrors may be identical, but their functions certainly are not.

The Mirror of Twilight is also significantly bigger than the Dark Mirror, which seems to be able to be carried easily by one person.

Midna was able to carry three quarters of the Twilight Mirror. In both FSA and TP, you can see a shrinking process when the items are stored away.

In any case, the mirror is destroyed after TP, and even if you go against the TP/FSA/ALttP connections and put FSA in the Adult Timeline, I find the mirror getting from where it is in the desert to the forest in FSA very hard to explain, especially with the flood.

I don't think Lex was saying the two mirrors are the same, but he was drawing parallels between them.

Edited by jhurvid, 29 January 2008 - 09:11 AM.

[LionHarted]

Actually, I'm saying that, now, there's nothing preventing them from being the same.

The Mirror of Twilight is never given any specific connection to the Twili (other than only their true leader being able to destroy it), and has no power relating to them, their magic, or the Twilight Realm. It's only a gateway. The Dark Mirror, however, contains the power of the tribe sealed in/by it. The Dark World in FSA works NOTHING like the Twilight Realm (it's not even worth trying to draw parallels because they fall apart at any close inspection), and it comes out of the mirror in a way that implies that the Dark Mirror, unlike the Mirror of Twilight, is directly linked to the dark powers of that tribe.

*sigh*

1) The Dark Mirror isn't related to the power of the tribe, either, and I defy you to find a quote that says it is.
2) Notably, the Dark World in FSA isn't even necessarily tied to the Dark Mirror, and the Dark World in FSA, the "shadowy mirror of Hyrule", obviously isn't the same as the Twilight Realm.

In any case, the mirror is destroyed after TP, and even if you go against the TP/FSA/ALttP connections and put FSA in the Adult Timeline, I find the mirror getting from where it is in the desert to the forest in FSA very hard to explain, especially with the flood.

1) There are more TWW/PH-TMC-FS/FSA connections than TP/FSA/ALttP connections. In fact, considering the only references to FSA/ALttP are either negative references (the mirror is destroyed) or recurring already (pedestal in the woods has only been done in what, four of the other games?).
2) I don't. Especially with the flood, as it gives a reason for it to be somewhere else (Arbiter's Grounds would obviously have been destroyed by the flood).

Edited by LionHarted, 29 January 2008 - 04:33 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Although the Twilight Mirror certainly has no relationship with the Dark Tribe's shadow magic, it almost certainly gets its evil nature from the lingering malice that surrounds it in the Arbiter's Grounds, and which comes from the Twilight Realm. The Twili's ancestors are at least the source of malice in the Twilight Realm. It is not at all improbable that the malice of FSA's Dark Tribe left an imprint on the Dark Mirror just as TP's Dark Tribe did on the Twilight Mirror.

Almost certainly? That's pure and utter bullshit, it was never proven that the Twilight Mirror was ever literally influenced by malevolent emotions, and the Twilight Mirror, in my opinion, isn't so much evil as it is neutral but dangerous.

[Raien]

1) The Dark Mirror isn't related to the power of the tribe, either, and I defy you to find a quote that says it is.

Why would the Hyrulians use a Dark item to seal the Dark Tribe, as opposed to a Light item? We know that Light represses Darkness, because apart from it being common sense, that is the reason why the Dark Mirror was hidden within the Forest of Light. And given what we have learned about how Darkness corrupts the heart, do you really see anyone being trusted to wield the Dark mirror for Light? There's no quote saying that the Dark Mirror was not Dark before the tribe was sealed away, but it does make much more logical sense that the tribe's power was the cause of the Dark Mirror's evil nature.

Almost certainly? That's pure and utter bullshit, it was never proven that the Twilight Mirror was ever literally influenced by malevolent emotions, and the Twilight Mirror, in my opinion, isn't so much evil as it is neutral but dangerous.

You really should do the research before you call bullshit. Upon collecting one of the mirror shards, Midna says:

The evil within the shards is more powerful than you can imagine... You know we could be assembling something truly terrible here... It could be something that we'll ultimately have to destroy...

And from Auru, we learn that the mirror had always been cursed (and Auru said he got his information from the Sages). In fact, Auru calls the mirror cursed several times (although this is just one example):

This desert at world's end... It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates...

So we know that the Twilight Mirror is evil, and we know that it was evil long before Zant broke it. By the process of elimination (as well as Auru's connection in the above quote), we can almost certainly say that the source of the evil is the malice of its surroundings; the Arbiter's Grounds and the Twilight Realm.

Edited by jhurvid, 29 January 2008 - 06:14 PM.

[LionHarted]

Why would the Hyrulians use a Dark item to seal the Dark Tribe, as opposed to a Light item?

Allow me to refer to the sages sealing Ganondorf in TP as a case-in-point.

And given what we have learned about how Darkness corrupts the heart, do you really see anyone being trusted to wield the Dark mirror for Light?

Link. (Didn't the game say this explicitly?)
Princess Zelda. (Don't you give it to her?)
The sages. (See the Mirror of Twilight.)
The maidens. (Presumption that they are in some way connected to the sages due to their role in sealing Ganon.)

There's no quote saying that the Dark Mirror was not Dark before the tribe was sealed away, but it does make much more logical sense that the tribe's power was the cause of the Dark Mirror's evil nature.

Allow me to revise my statement.

It is not a fact that the Dark Mirror got its nature from the dark tribe being sealed by it.

There is more supporting this idea with respect to the Mirror of Twilight, and by the mere fact that I rule them the same mirror, one being the mirror in the Child timeline, one being the mirror in the Adult timeline, that would mean that I still agree with you, to an extent, maybe, but I still will not deign to say that it is fact.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 January 2008 - 06:44 PM.

[Raien]

I think the main reason why I don't see the Dark Mirror as being Dark before the tribe's sealing is that it has no history before the tribe's sealing. In other words, all we are told about it is that the tribe was sealed inside, and then it was hidden within the Forest of Light. If there was another chapter to the Dark Mirror's story; that it gained the power of Darkness before the tribe's sealing, there is nothing in FSA to suggest it exists. That is why I firmly believe the Dark Tribe is responsible, because they are the only referenced chapter in the Dark Mirror's history.

[Impossible]

Midna was able to carry three quarters of the Twilight Mirror. In both FSA and TP, you can see a shrinking process when the items are stored away.

But we see the physical size of the Twilight Mirror when it's fully formed, you couldn't just take it and carry it around (video game magic aside). Zelda picks up the Dark Mirror, they can't really be the same size.

Actually, I'm saying that, now, there's nothing preventing them from being the same.

And all I need to prove is that there's nothing causing them to be the same. It's a theory, not a piece of evidence, so it's certainly not going to back up any other theories if that was the idea you were getting at. And so I don't really see any reason to insist on them being the same. There's no requirement for it to be the case, there's no reason whatsoever why they must be the same and no aspect of the timeline would make more sense if they were the same - it only makes less sense, due to all the inconsistencies involved. The fact that the two mirrors perform completely different functions is one thing that prevents them from being the same.

1) The Dark Mirror isn't related to the power of the tribe, either, and I defy you to find a quote that says it is.

How about common sense? The mirror contains dark powers, something which is never shown to be the case for the Mirror of Twilight. Why do you think we're told that a tribe was sealed by/in the mirror? It's because that's the reason why it's such a fearsome, evil object. Why are we told it's dangerous, and had to be kept away from people? Because it was used to imprison a dark tribe. Why else would its powers suddenly have absolutely nothing to do with being a passage into the world the tribe was sealed in (as the Mirror of Twilight is), and much more a means for dark powers to leak out into Hyrule, and take forms such as Shadow Link? It's nothing like the Mirror of Twilight. It "reveals the wickedness within a person and brings it to life." What does that have to do with getting into an alternate realm?

I also always thought it was implied that the Dark Mirror's power was what caused the Kakariko/Lost Woods area of Hyrule to become like the Dark World, hence the name of that section of the game (and the Forest of Light turning into the Lost Woods). It makes sense, but maybe there was less reason to believe that than I thought... I thought that was commonly accepted at some point, though.

1) There are more TWW/PH-TMC-FS/FSA connections than TP/FSA/ALttP connections. In fact, considering the only references to FSA/ALttP are either negative references (the mirror is destroyed) or recurring already (pedestal in the woods has only been done in what, four of the other games?).

Yep, just go on pretending to be that ignorant if it makes you feel better. No matter how much you try and simplify the "pedestal in the woods" thing, the ultimate truth is that TP provides the perfect segue for the Master Sword between OoT and ALttP, and no other game has ever come close to that (and only one other game had something similar, and it doesn't count since it wasn't in Hyrule). It confirms that the Lost Woods and Temple of Time are in fact in the same place, which correlates geographically as well. And we know FSA is a prequel to ALttP, as well as the Sacred Grove seeming more like the Forest of Light than the Lost Woods. And unlike in the Adult timeline, there is definitely still a Hyrule and we don't need to speculate about it. The connection to ALttP is pretty deliberate with the Master Sword. In the Adult Timeline, the Master Sword is moved entirely from that place. There are other things, too, like the location of Hyrule Castle moving to the centre of Hyrule. There's also a plethora of other reasons (like Hyrule being the same across those games), but it seems fruitless for us to even have that discussion. And in FSA, Ganondorf's name is not yet recognised as that of the Evil King, or whatever you want to call him, and TP is able to lead up to that perfectly. There aren't any connections in the PLOT or in geography from TWW to TMC or FSA, regardless of the nonsense you pretend is the case, and that seems more important to me.

2) I don't. Especially with the flood, as it gives a reason for it to be somewhere else (Arbiter's Grounds would obviously have been destroyed by the flood).

That doesn't make sense. Then you have to explain why the mirror isn't at the bottom of the ocean, or destroyed somewhere. And how anyone could know its history. And how it changed function entirely. We don't need a reason for the mirror to be somewhere else because they're different mirrors. Are you going to suggest that it's also the mirror from ALttP, and the Dark World, which is actually the Sacred Realm, is the Twilight Realm? Mirrors obviously have pretty important roles in Hyrule's history.

You can go on believing that the mirrors are the same if you want, but you most certainly do not have anywhere near enough evidence to then tie that into your overall timeline theory as evidence. Not that proving a theory with a theory is beyond you.

Allow me to refer to the sages sealing Ganondorf in TP as a case-in-point.

That wasn't exactly a thought-out decision, it was a desperate attempt to stop him. And they only used the mirror for what it is - a portal to another world, where they wanted to keep him. Clearly the Mirror of Twilight can only be opened from the Hyrule end. The Dark Mirror, however, displays no such ability, and in fact evil only comes OUT of it from the other side, where it would be sealed if it was the Twilight.

While the Twilight Mirror is "cursed", that is more likely something that comes purely from being a direct link to a realm which is itself cursed. There's nothing to suggest that a mirror, a goddamn inanimate object, can "pick up" malice. And certainly nothing could explain its transition to how it works in FSA, where it is complete but does not lead to another world, and is instead purely a source of evil power.

[Jumbie]

Hm, I must keep that for later...

Edited by Jumbie, 29 January 2008 - 11:34 PM.

[LionHarted]

By the way, I think Impossible should refrain from using words like "common sense" and "ignorance" to insult others when the extent of his argument is essentially "it can only be this way" or "that's the reason." i.e., "I know what the creators think."

And all I need to prove is that there's nothing causing them to be the same. It's a theory, not a piece of evidence, so it's certainly not going to back up any other theories if that was the idea you were getting at.

Both mirrors were used to seal a dark tribe.
Both mirrors are cursed.
Both mirrors are either described or depicted as reflecting the evil in people's hearts.

The only difference, at the moment, is that one is sealed in the Forest of Light, and the other is held in Arbiter's Grounds... but then again, if TP and FSA are on different timelines, then this disparity is resolved by the flood. (Theory.)

But, again, there is no fact that separates them in any way.

How about common sense? The mirror contains dark powers, something which is never shown to be the case for the Mirror of Twilight. Why do you think we're told that a tribe was sealed by/in the mirror? It's because that's the reason why it's such a fearsome, evil object. Why are we told it's dangerous, and had to be kept away from people? Because it was used to imprison a dark tribe. Why else would its powers suddenly have absolutely nothing to do with being a passage into the world the tribe was sealed in (as the Mirror of Twilight is), and much more a means for dark powers to leak out into Hyrule, and take forms such as Shadow Link? It's nothing like the Mirror of Twilight. It "reveals the wickedness within a person and brings it to life." What does that have to do with getting into an alternate realm?

1) The Mirror of Twilight was responsible for creating every single boss you fight to obtain the Mirror Shards.
2) This is applicable to both mirrors; both sealed tribes, and both gained fearsome renown for it.
3) Again, applicable to both Mirrors. Although they were kept away because they were cursed.
4) Dark powers do leak out into Hyrule because of the Mirror Shards.

the ultimate truth is that TP provides the perfect segue for the Master Sword between OoT and ALttP, and no other game has ever come close to that (and only one other game had something similar, and it doesn't count since it wasn't in Hyrule).

The problem being that PH provides the perfect segue between OoT and FSA, and FSA has more in common with ALttP than TP. =]

It confirms that the Lost Woods and Temple of Time are in fact in the same place, which correlates geographically as well.

Are you sure? The Lost Woods in ALttP are to the northwest of Hyrule, north of the desert and far to the west of Lake Hylia, and the Temple of Time in TP is to the southwest, southeast of the desert and Lake Hylia.

And we know FSA is a prequel to ALttP, as well as the Sacred Grove seeming more like the Forest of Light than the Lost Woods.

Because we've of course seen the Forest of Light?

And unlike in the Adult timeline, there is definitely still a Hyrule and we don't need to speculate about it.

I'll give you that one.

And in FSA, Ganondorf's name is not yet recognised as that of the Evil King, or whatever you want to call him, and TP is able to lead up to that perfectly.

He should at least be recognized as the "demon thief."

There aren't any connections in the PLOT or in geography from TWW to TMC or FSA, regardless of the nonsense you pretend is the case, and that seems more important to me.

TWW?

Oh, hell no.

PH.

Then you have to explain why the mirror isn't at the bottom of the ocean, or destroyed somewhere. And how anyone could know its history. And how it changed function entirely. We don't need a reason for the mirror to be somewhere else because they're different mirrors.

1) Because the mirror can be moved?
2) Why shouldn't people know its history?
3) Both mirrors were used to seal a dark tribe and can summon the evil in people's hearts. I fail to see an inconsistency in function.
4) Or the same mirror on different timelines.

That wasn't exactly a thought-out decision, it was a desperate attempt to stop him.

Oh, right. And sealing away the however many more other persons trying to take over the Sacred Realm wasn't any more desperate? Consider that they were "chased across the lands of Hyrule and driven into the underworld." Sounds pretty desperate to me. Tell me, why was Ganondorf being executed in the Mirror Chamber in the first place, if not to be sent to the underworld?

And they only used the mirror for what it is - a portal to another world, where they wanted to keep him. Clearly the Mirror of Twilight can only be opened from the Hyrule end. The Dark Mirror, however, displays no such ability, and in fact evil only comes OUT of it from the other side, where it would be sealed if it was the Twilight.

1) Where they kept the dark tribe.
2) Yes, only from the Hyrule side.
3) Evil only comes out of it when Ganondorf steals it and uses it to summon evil. From the Hyrule side.

While the Twilight Mirror is "cursed", that is more likely something that comes purely from being a direct link to a realm which is itself cursed.

But this can't possibly be the case with the Dark Mirror, right? Because we never get to use it?

Edited by LionHarted, 29 January 2008 - 11:25 PM.

[Jumbie]

The mirror contains dark powers, something which is never shown to be the case for the Mirror of Twilight.

..Except all throughout TP's second half, as LionHarted already pointed out.

It's nothing like the Mirror of Twilight. It "reveals the wickedness within a person and brings it to life."

Uh, ever thought of Yeta? That FSA quote is exactly parallel to what the cursed mirror shards do in TP.

Yep, just go on pretending to be that ignorant if it makes you feel better. No matter how much you try and simplify the "pedestal in the woods" thing, the ultimate truth is that TP provides the perfect segue for the Master Sword between OoT and ALttP, and no other game has ever come close to that (and only one other game had something similar, and it doesn't count since it wasn't in Hyrule). It confirms that the Lost Woods and Temple of Time are in fact in the same place, which correlates geographically as well. And we know FSA is a prequel to ALttP, as well as the Sacred Grove seeming more like the Forest of Light than the Lost Woods. And unlike in the Adult timeline, there is definitely still a Hyrule and we don't need to speculate about it. The connection to ALttP is pretty deliberate with the Master Sword. In the Adult Timeline, the Master Sword is moved entirely from that place. There are other things, too, like the location of Hyrule Castle moving to the centre of Hyrule. There's also a plethora of other reasons (like Hyrule being the same across those games), but it seems fruitless for us to even have that discussion. And in FSA, Ganondorf's name is not yet recognised as that of the Evil King, or whatever you want to call him, and TP is able to lead up to that perfectly.

Truthfully spoken!

While the Twilight Mirror is "cursed", that is more likely something that comes purely from being a direct link to a realm which is itself cursed. There's nothing to suggest that a mirror, a goddamn inanimate object, can "pick up" malice.

Except that Auru says so. The malice of the inmates of Arbiter's Grounds and the sorrow of the residents of the Twilight Realm are two very different animals.

And certainly nothing could explain its transition to how it works in FSA, where it is complete but does not lead to another world, and is instead purely a source of evil power.

Of course the Dark Mirror cannot open a gateway to the Twilight Realm in FSA when the game never features the monolith from TP which the portal is located in!

Both mirrors were used to seal a dark tribe.
Both mirrors are cursed.
Both mirrors are either described or depicted as reflecting the evil in people's hearts.

The only difference, at the moment, is that one is sealed in the Forest of Light, and the other is held in Arbiter's Grounds...

I perfectly agree.

And in FSA, Ganondorf's name is not yet recognised as that of the Evil King, or whatever you want to call him, and TP is able to lead up to that perfectly.

He should at least be recognized as the "demon thief."

Well, he would die in between TP and FSA, so most people's memory of him would get lost. Zelda is in FSA the only one who remembers Ganon from the ancient legends. (This was devil's advocating here.)

Tell me, why was Ganondorf being executed in the Mirror Chamber in the first place, if not to be sent to the underworld?

Don't confuse the Twilight Realm with afterlife... The sages certainly didn't mean to use the mirror on him. He was executed right there because Arbiter's Grounds is, well, the execution place of Hyrule (which is its Japanese name actually).

Edited by Jumbie, 30 January 2008 - 12:03 AM.

[LionHarted]

Of course the Dark Mirror cannot open a gateway to the Twilight Realm in FSA when the game never features the monolith from TP which the portal is located in!

I love you, Jumbie.

Well, he would die in between TP and FSA, so most people's memory of him would get lost.

He would die between TWW and FSA, too, so it's really a moot point.

Don't confuse the Twilight Realm with afterlife... The sages certainly didn't mean to use the mirror on him. He was executed right there because Arbiter's Grounds is, well, the execution place of Hyrule (which is its Japanese name actually).

I was looking at Auru's statement that people were executed and then sent to the underworld using the cursed mirror.

[MikePetersSucks]

This desert at world's end... It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates...

Mentioning two nouns in the same sentence doesn't make them related. One could easily take the "Malice of the doomed inmates" as the ghosts/undead inside the place, which share no connection to the Twilight Mirror. And Midna calling the shards "Evil" doesn't mean they actually are, since an inanimate object can't make ethical choices. Either way, that segment was my own opinion.

[Raien]

I was looking at Auru's statement that people were executed and then sent to the underworld using the cursed mirror.

My theory is that the entire ritual involving the Light Blade and Twilight Mirror must work in unison in order to send spirits directly to the afterlife. If someone is sent through the Twilight Mirror while they are still alive, like Ganondorf, their final destination is the Twilight Realm.

Mentioning two nouns in the same sentence doesn't make them related. One could easily take the "Malice of the doomed inmates" as the ghosts/undead inside the place, which share no connection to the Twilight Mirror. And Midna calling the shards "Evil" doesn't mean they actually are, since an inanimate object can't make ethical choices. Either way, that segment was my own opinion.

The Twilight Mirror is still "cursed", and there is no other explanation provided for that fact. And Midna said that evil possessed the Mirror shards, so although the Mirror is itself inanimate, it is possessed by malice that thus can make ethical choices.

[LionHarted]

The Twilight Mirror is still "cursed", and there is no other explanation provided for that fact.

And yet your explanation still isn't necessarily the only possible/plausible one.
It's not a matter of there being another explanation given; it's a matter of there being no explanation given, including yours.

[Raien]

And yet your explanation still isn't necessarily the only possible/plausible one.
It's not a matter of there being another explanation given; it's a matter of there being no explanation given, including yours.

An implication is as good as a direct statement. The cursed mirror is tied to the malice in the Arbiter's Grounds and the Twilight Realm, and that makes it the most plausible explanation we have.

[LionHarted]

An implication is as good as a direct statement.

An inference is not. What you are referring to is an inference, not an implication.

The direct statement is that the cursed mirror is held in the Arbiter's Grounds, where malice dwells.

You infer that this means the malice is related to the curse on the mirror, when in fact the malice could just as well refer to the undead zombies and evil ghosts and skeleton-beasts walking around everywhere.

[Raien]

You infer that this means the malice is related to the curse on the mirror, when in fact the malice could just as well refer to the undead zombies and evil ghosts and skeleton-beasts walking around everywhere.

Alright, let's pretend for a moment that that specific quote from Auru does not exist. We are still left with the fact that the mirror was cursed, and we are still left with the malice as the only plausible explanation for it being cursed.

[LionHarted]

We are still left with the fact that the mirror was cursed, and we are still left with the malice as the only plausible explanation for it being cursed.

It's connection to the shadow realm isn't a plausible explanation?

[Raien]

It's connection to the shadow realm isn't a plausible explanation?

The shadow realm is not inherently evil; it's only the malice of the Twili's ancestors sealed within that realm that gives it that nature.

[MikePetersSucks]

"Cursed". Because it's not like people in Hyrule are superstitious or anything, GOD forbid, or the "cursed" line can refer to the fact that it connects directly to a hellish plane of existence.

[Raien]

"Cursed". Because it's not like people in Hyrule are superstitious or anything, GOD forbid, or the "cursed" line can refer to the fact that it connects directly to a hellish plane of existence.

But myths don't develop without people to pass them on to future generations. The only people who knew the true nature of the Twilight Mirror were the Sages who guarded it, and it was from them that Auru got his information. If Auru says the mirror is cursed, it is because the Sages told him so, and we can judge their words to be truthful. The Twilight Mirror is cursed; thus we know its evil stretches back long before Ganondorf was sent to be executed.

And also, why is the Twilight Realm "a hellish plane of existence"? Because the malice of the Twili's ancestors lingers within it, as we know from Ganondorf and Rusl. Whichever way you look at it, the malice is clearly responsible for the Twilight Mirror's evil nature.

Edited by jhurvid, 30 January 2008 - 07:23 PM.

[LionHarted]

But myths don't develop without people to pass them on to future generations. The only people who knew the true nature of the Twilight Mirror were the Sages who guarded it, and it was from them that Auru got his information. If Auru says the mirror is cursed, it is because the Sages told him so, and we can judge their words to be truthful. The Twilight Mirror is cursed; thus we know its evil stretches back long before Ganondorf was sent to be executed.

1) Anyone could have known about the Mirror of Twilight before it was "passed to the protectors of Hyrule."
2) See above.
3) See above.
4) The execution of Ganondorf also happens long before TP, and there's nothing really to distinguish between Ganondorf's time and the time of the dark tribe.

And also, why is the Twilight Realm "a hellish plane of existence"? Because the malice of the Twili's ancestors lingers within it, as we know from Ganondorf and Rusl. Whichever way you look at it, the malice is clearly responsible for the Twilight Mirror's evil nature.

Alternatively, it could be from the remnants of shadow magic that the Twili still wield.

[Raien]

1) Anyone could have known about the Mirror of Twilight before it was "passed to the protectors of Hyrule.

Except Auru tells us his information comes directly from the Sages. It's true that some people in TP did remember hearing about an ancient tribe that got sealed away, like an old woman in Castle Town, but clearly no one remembers the details of a Mirror, and it is the Sages that fill the gaps in Auru's knowledge.

4) The execution of Ganondorf also happens long before TP, and there's nothing really to distinguish between Ganondorf's time and the time of the dark tribe.

Except that the tribe had lost their malice before Ganondorf invaded the realm. I quoted Midna this very statement in an earlier post.

Alternatively, it could be from the remnants of shadow magic that the Twili still wield.

The Twili don't wield the power of Darkness that their ancestors did. It was sealed away as the Fused Shadows, unless you are suggesting that Midna's helmet alone is generating enough energy to affect the Twilight Mirror, which I doubt given how its power has diminished with the separation.

[LionHarted]

Except Auru tells us his information comes directly from the Sages. It's true that some people in TP did remember hearing about an ancient tribe that got sealed away, like an old woman in Castle Town, but clearly no one remembers the details of a Mirror, and it is the Sages that fill the gaps in Auru's knowledge.

We cannot collaborate with any precision what details Auru got from the sages and what details he gained via hearsay. As far as I gleaned from my first playthrough, his real purpose was to inform you of its whereabouts, and so I'd assume (subjectively) that its whereabouts is what he learned from the sages.

Except that the tribe had lost their malice before Ganondorf invaded the realm. I quoted Midna this very statement in an earlier post.

Ganondorf didn't invade the realm until fairly recently before the beginning of TP, yet was sealed there hundreds of years prior.

The Twili don't wield the power of Darkness that their ancestors did.

I was referring to the "old magic" Zant references (which is obviously not the Fused Shadows, since you had them, but something else).

[Jumbie]

I was looking at Auru's statement that people were executed and then sent to the underworld using the cursed mirror.

Sadly, this quote seems to be inaccessible in the Japanese text dump. But, it is likely that in Japanese we wouldn't be able to tell whether Auru speaks of one person or several. It may well be that Auru refers to the accidental banishment of Ganondorf alone. Otherwise, the theory would have to be that the Twili's ancestors, too, were executed and their spirits sent to the Shadow Realm using the mirror - which is nonsense, seeing as the Twili are well alive...

My theory is that the entire ritual involving the Light Blade and Twilight Mirror must work in unison in order to send spirits directly to the afterlife. If someone is sent through the Twilight Mirror while they are still alive, like Ganondorf, their final destination is the Twilight Realm.

Since when do all of you assume that the Mirror of Gloom has a connection to afterlife? What would that be necessary for - shouldn't it suffice to kill a person to transport their soul to hell?
I for one think that it's the word "underworld" which is the metaphor here. We have no idea which word Japanese put in its place. As we know from the translations of LoZ and AoL, "underworld" can have very different meanings, it doesn't have to mean "hell". It's also conceivable that Auru misinterpreted the nature of the Shadow World when the Sages told him that legend.

Mentioning two nouns in the same sentence doesn't make them related. One could easily take the "Malice of the doomed inmates" as the ghosts/undead inside the place, which share no connection to the Twilight Mirror.

The way I see it, the Mirror of Gloom was stored at Arbiter's Grounds simply because it used to be the best-guarded place in Hyrule (it's a high-security prison, after all!). But after the Twilis' banishment, the Mirror steadily absorbed the malice of the doomed inmates until it was as cursed as it proves to be in TP. This is very similar to how Majora's Mask absorbed people's malice.

The direct statement is that the cursed mirror is held in the Arbiter's Grounds, where malice dwells.

You infer that this means the malice is related to the curse on the mirror, when in fact the malice could just as well refer to the undead zombies and evil ghosts and skeleton-beasts walking around everywhere.

I say it refers to both because one may have caused the other. I guess you aren't trying to disprove this, but only showing that there can be another interpretation. However, why would Auru tell us that the mirror is cursed and in the same sentence say that malice dwells at its hiding place, when the latter weren't the cause of the former? This is illogical.

Edited by Jumbie, 30 January 2008 - 10:07 PM.

[LionHarted]

Is it not so plausible to say that the Mirror of Twilight might have been cursed prior to the sealing of the Twili, given that the tribe itself is connected to the Mirror via its ruler being the only one able to destroy it?

Regarding the original topic:

I do find it rather plausible that the Mirror of Twilight and the Dark Mirror might be one and the same, only placed in different timelines, thereby accounting for the disparities in their history. The Mirror of Twilight is taken to and remains in the hands of the sages at the Arbiter's Grounds until its destruction by Midna. The Dark Mirror's fate differs because of the Flood; circumstances require that it be placed in the forest temple in the Forest of Light to prevent it from falling into the hands of evil.

I had in fact originally thought, before I learned of the Mirror's destruction in TP (indeed, as many from ZU may remind you, before we even had confirmation that there even was a mirror in TP), that the Mirror's history would have been as the portal through which Ganondorf escaped his prison in the Dark World, thus giving a reason for the Mirror to be locked away "to sever its connection from this world" in FSA, and technically it is the route of his escape, just not in the way I expected.

[Raien]

Is it not so plausible to say that the Mirror of Twilight might have been cursed prior to the sealing of the Twili, given that the tribe itself is connected to the Mirror via its ruler being the only one able to destroy it?

The context in which Auru refers to the "cursed mirror" is clearly not referring to the Twili leader's ability to destroy it. Likewise, the goddesses would not have made the Twilight Mirror possess evil power just for the lols, which then takes us back to malice.