96 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

The context in which Auru refers to the "cursed mirror" is clearly not referring to the Twili leader's ability to destroy it. Likewise, the goddesses would not have made the Twilight Mirror possess evil power just for the lols, which then takes us back to malice.

I am not saying that in reference to the leader's ability to destroy it; merely that the leader's ability to destroy it suggests a link to the Mirror that runs deeper than it simply possessing the malice of their banished ancestors, and that the curse might be just as ancient (pre-sealing, rather than post-sealing).

[Raien]

I am not saying that in reference to the leader's ability to destroy it; merely that the leader's ability to destroy it suggests a link to the Mirror that runs deeper than it simply possessing the malice of their banished ancestors, and that the curse might be just as ancient (pre-sealing, rather than post-sealing).

Since it was the goddesses who forged the mirror, this would suggest that they gave the Mirror its evil power. This begs the question, why would the goddesses curse the Twilight Mirror?

[LionHarted]

Since it was the goddesses who forged the mirror, this would suggest that they gave the Mirror its evil power. This begs the question, why would the goddesses curse the Twilight Mirror?

Was it the goddesses who forged the Mirror, or did they simply entrust it to the sages?
I remember the latter being said, but not the former.

[Raien]

Was it the goddesses who forged the Mirror, or did they simply entrust it to the sages?
I remember the latter being said, but not the former.

Midna said that after the goddesses sealed the Dark Tribe away they "left behind a link to our world" (or something similar to that). The quote suggests that the Twilight Mirror was forged at the time of the sealing.

[LionHarted]

Midna said that after the goddesses sealed the Dark Tribe away they "left behind a link to our world" (or something similar to that). The quote suggests that the Twilight Mirror was forged at the time of the sealing.

Hardly.

It suggests nothing more than it says; that there was one link to their world left behind (or, if it is the only link to begin with, it remained intact).

[Raien]

It suggests nothing more than it says; that there was one link to their world left behind (or, if it is the only link to begin with, it remained intact).

The words "left behind" are used when someone brings something and leaves it. For example, if someone brings a cake to a party and leaves it there, it has been left behind. If the cake was already there to begin with, the words "left behind" would not be used. So by using those words, Midna implies that the only link to the Twilight Realm did not exist until the goddesses made it and left it in Hyrule, under the protection of the Sages.

[LionHarted]

The words "left behind" are used when someone brings something and leaves it. For example, if someone brings a cake to a party and leaves it there, it has been left behind. If the cake was already there to begin with, the words "left behind" would not be used. So by using those words, Midna implies that the only link to the Twilight Realm did not exist until the goddesses made it and left it in Hyrule, under the protection of the Sages.

The words "left behind" are used? I just read "left", which is much more open to interpretation.

Taken in context: "Though the goddesses forbade us to return to the world of light, they left one link between the light and the darkness."

More likely the goddesses cut them off from the world of light, save this one link, the Mirror, but this says nothing on the part of who is responsible for the Mirror in the first place.

[Raien]

The words "left behind" are used? I just read "left", which is much more open to interpretation.

Taken in context: "Though the goddesses forbade us to return to the world of light, they left one link between the light and the darkness."

More likely the goddesses cut them off from the world of light, save this one link, the Mirror, but this says nothing on the part of who is responsible for the Mirror in the first place.

So you're suggesting that there was free passage between the Light and Twilight Realms until the goddesses cut them off save for the Twilight Mirror? I harshly disagree with that assertion, but I will agree with you that the text is open to interpretation.

I return to my original stance that we can be almost certain that malice is responsible for the Twilight Mirror's evil.

[LionHarted]

So you're suggesting that there was free passage between the Light and Twilight Realms until the goddesses cut them off save for the Twilight Mirror? I harshly disagree with that assertion, but I will agree with you that the text is open to interpretation.

Again, you infer too much.

[Raien]

Again, you infer too much.

Lol, probably.

[LionHarted]

I'm doing it because it's not goddamn possible to use as evidence when it's only true if the theory it's supposed to be evidence for is already assumed.

The Mirror being in the forest temple is neither positive nor negative evidence, regardless of the interpretation, if FSA is after the flood.

You only proposed the mirrors being the same because you WANT them to be the same, and so it seems like something you should try and prove from your perspective of the timeline. Looking at it as someone not constantly reaching for any shred of evidence that would make his timeline possible, it's just not logical.

Nope; I proposed the mirrors being the same long before I actually learned about the plotline of TP or that TP was in the child timeline, simply based on the description I got of it in spoilers.

This is a circumstantial argument ad hominem anyway.

In TWW, there's no knowledge of Hyrule, and nobody would be able to identify the mirror. If it were known and found and not destroyed and any record of its history existed, it would still be called the Mirror of Twilight and its history would be accurate. And the chances of all those things happening are pretty damn low, it's just fan fiction.

You're creating a false dichotomy, here, and one of the worst kind. If the Dark Mirror is meant to be the Mirror of Twilight, but in the Adult Timeline, its history would obviously vary from its history in TP because of the flood. It does not have to meet Impossible's standard of evidence.

So? There aren't records of Hyrule on the Great Sea

Fallacy of composition. Just because the population we see in TWW doesn't know of Hyrule doesn't mean absolutely no one knows of Hyrule, or that no records whatsoever exist. That a book on the Triumph Forks is juxtaposed with a book titled "History of Hyrule" in TMC would suggest to me that there was probably some record of Hyrule. Sure, it's an obscure reference, but it's at least specific.

NOTE: This is different from my argument against jhurvid about an invisible population, because we actually see members of the visible population

This explanation completely ignores the contradiction. It's simply not possible that he was "forgotten" when everything else is known.

When I say "forgotten," I mean "put out of mind." No one is thinking about Ganon, they are all focused on Vaati until they learn that Ganon is behind everything.

[Impossible]

The Mirror being in the forest temple is neither positive nor negative evidence, regardless of the interpretation, if FSA is after the flood.

Yes, it is, because it's a complete contradiction to the Mirror of Twilight. Both of their histories can't be true about the same mirror. And you don't seem to comprehend the problem here at all. You can't be so damn picky about what does and doesn't matter and what bits of history do and don't exist at each point along your nonsensical timeline. Either the mirror's history is known in detail through texts on it, or almost nothing is known about it. If there's any knowledge that detailed then it would also include the correct name and history of the mirror. And their functions are completely different. You can't always have it your own fucking way by simply making things up, that's not how timeline debate works for anyone else, and it's simply inexcusable.

Nope; I proposed the mirrors being the same long before I actually learned about the plotline of TP or that TP was in the child timeline, simply based on the description I got of it in spoilers.

This just proves my point, though. You came up with a theory before you had any basis for it, and now can't let go of it even though the evidence contradicts it. And every time Nintendo show anything of a new Zelda game, you start making baseless comments about what you perceive as "likely" timeline connections, because you're simply desperate for them to be true. The way you posted about PH when you knew nothing about it just proved your immense bias. And none of the crap you come up with about unreleased games is ever actually right... Nor is your fan fiction about released games ever right.

You're creating a false dichotomy, here, and one of the worst kind. If the Dark Mirror is meant to be the Mirror of Twilight, but in the Adult Timeline, its history would obviously vary from its history in TP because of the flood. It does not have to meet Impossible's standard of evidence.

IT'S NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE FOR THE HISTORY OF THE MIRROR, OR OF ANYTHING IN HYRULE, TO EXIST THE WAY YOU CLAIM IT DOES. First, we have TWW, where beyond your nonsense, there's basically no knowledge of Hyrule, with most records of its existence being down there with it, reducing it to legend. Then you claim TMC (which is first, by the way) shows a Hyrule where most crucial details of Hyrule's history aren't known, even though the entire fucking basis of your theory is either that these records exist on the Great Sea (which they don't), or are rediscovered with Hyrule (which, itself, is purely fan fiction after TWW, because it doesn't exist). Then in FSA, everything magically appears in that Hyrule again, save for the ONE GODDAMN THING that was actually known on the Great Sea beyond your fictional possibilities. How the hell can its history exist in a form you claim it does? If a book (which could not possibly have survived the flood) talks about the mirror's history, then it would actually be accurate, and it's not even close - it's downright contradictory and inconsistent. If no detailed record exists, there's no way they can know what they do about it.

This shouldn't even be considered. The entire thing is purely a circular argument. The ONLY thing that could prove the possibility of the mirrors being the same is the very same thing that the similarity in the mirrors is supposed to prove. There's no reason or evidence behind it, only the ignorance of details.

The fan fiction in the rest of your post doesn't merit a response. But I will add one other thing, and that's something which seems like a very simple request to me. Next time you're going to try and show evidence or disprove something to support your theory, I want something actually solid and substantial. That is, I don't want a semantics argument over the meaning of a totally irrelevant piece of dialogue, or of the least important part of something otherwise significant. Not just your specific interpretation that has nothing to do with the actual meaning of a line, but real evidence. I don't want any of this "separated from this world" or "new country" or "land that will be the next Hyrule" bullshit, which are all taken out of context and are based on an interpretation that only makes any sense to you. I want something real, some actual evidence. Is that so much to ask for? I do the same for you when I explain why it's impossible for Ganon to be unknown at any time after TWW, or why it's impossible for OoT and ALttP to share a Ganon, and as a consequence of those two, why OoT cannot be the IW.

It feels like every time we argue about exactly the same quote (like the mirror story, or things about Hyrule returning), we're focusing on two completely different aspects. I'm talking about the important part of the sentence, the implicit or even explicit meaning, something that is blatantly obvious. And you're arguing over word meanings and possible alternate interpretations and irrelevant, non-literal parts of the quote, or even omitting the most important thing... Even though, honestly, what you're suggesting cannot be what was intended by that quote. Like, can you honestly say that "imprisoned in the mirror", the central aspect of that dialogue, is weaker evidence than "separated from this world"? The latter doesn't even MEAN ANYTHING, because there can be a world inside the mirror, too. So come on, I'm challenging you here. Give me something that heavily implies that TMC can't be first, within TMC, or that two mirrors which are different in basically 90% of the areas you can compare them in are the same, from those games, or that Hyrule will be unflooded, within TWW, or that the Hyrule in FSA and ALttP ISN'T exactly the same Hyrule as the one in OoT, which I can certainly prove, again within those games. If it can be done as easily as you seem to believe, do it. I have absolutely no problem doing that, while focusing entirely on theories and evidence if need be, and that in itself is something I will very shortly prove. With you, however, I'm forced to respond directly to your methods, to your ridiculous approach of taking things out of context and simply ignoring evidence and quotes and posts you dislike. Doing that discredits everything you say before your actual point (which rarely exists) can be addressed.

Edited by Impossible, 09 April 2008 - 08:15 AM.

[LionHarted]

Yes, it is, because it's a complete contradiction to the Mirror of Twilight.

The Mirror of Twilight... in TP.

Both of their histories can't be true about the same mirror.

Sure they can. Isnt' that why there are two timelines?

And their functions are completely different.

Sure. In one game Ganon is using it to create monsters and debatably to open portals to the Dark World, and in the other Link is using it to get to the Shadow Realm. I see no reason why Link would use it to create monsters, although the game makes it quite clear that it's perfectly capable of creating monsters on its own.

Now then, their functions are different?

This just proves my point, though. You came up with a theory before you had any basis for it

I came up with a theory because it was the obvious conclusion based on what evidence I had, and the only contradictions in its history that I saw (Mirror in Arbiter's Ground, Mirror being broken at the end of TP) were easily remedied by having the Dark Mirror be in the other timeline (in which case its history would take a rather different course, given the flood).

The way you posted about PH when you knew nothing about it just proved your immense bias. And none of the crap you come up with about unreleased games is ever actually right... Nor is your fan fiction about released games ever right.

Actually, yes, it is.

I accurately predicted that a dark mirror would play a part in TP's plotline merely by comparing the spread of the Twilight Realm in TP to the spread of darkness in FSA. While the mirror doesn't actually seem to do any of the spreading itself, its dark power to reflect the evil in hearts is the source of many of the monsters seen throughout the game.

IT'S NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE FOR THE HISTORY OF THE MIRROR, OR OF ANYTHING IN HYRULE, TO EXIST THE WAY YOU CLAIM IT DOES.

Funny, that's what I said about the split timeline.

First, we have TWW, where beyond your nonsense, there's basically no knowledge of Hyrule, with most records of its existence being down there with it, reducing it to legend.

If I can't claim that there are records of Hyrule on the Great Sea, you can't claim that they are "down there with it," either. Neither argument has evidence, both are speculatory. However, I would presume that because the population of Hyrule survived by fleeing to the mountaintops that they would carry some record with them.

Then you claim TMC (which is first, by the way) shows a Hyrule where most crucial details of Hyrule's history aren't known, even though the entire fucking basis of your theory is either that these records exist on the Great Sea (which they don't), or are rediscovered with Hyrule (which, itself, is purely fan fiction after TWW, because it doesn't exist).

From the TMC library:

"History of Hyrule"
"Triumph Forks"

Interesting choices. An ALttP reference and a TWW reference, side-by-side. And both of them in the form of history books?

Then in FSA, everything magically appears in that Hyrule again, save for the ONE GODDAMN THING that was actually known on the Great Sea beyond your fictional possibilities.

I'm assuming you're talking about Ganon, in which case I have to protest. The only people who knew of Ganon were the ones who were old enough to still know the Hylian tongue, and those who became involved with Link's efforts. No one else appears to know anything of him, which is perfectly consistent with only the royal family apparently knowing of him in FSA.

The ONLY thing that could prove the possibility of the mirrors being the same is the very same thing that the similarity in the mirrors is supposed to prove. There's no reason or evidence behind it, only the ignorance of details.

Wait, what? The similarity of the mirrors can prove they are the same by itself. o.O

I don't want any of this "separated from this world" or "new country" or "land that will be the next Hyrule" bullshit, which are all taken out of context and are based on an interpretation that only makes any sense to you.

I'm actually going to concede the "separated from this world" argument, although that doesn't exclude the possibility of the Mirror sealing the tribe in another world.

I want something real, some actual evidence. Is that so much to ask for?

I do the same for you when I explain why it's impossible for Ganon to be unknown at any time after TWW

This argument is nonsensical. Even more people know of Ganon in TP than in TWW.

It feels like every time we argue about exactly the same quote (like the mirror story, or things about Hyrule returning), we're focusing on two completely different aspects. I'm talking about the important part of the sentence, the implicit or even explicit meaning, something that is blatantly obvious. And you're arguing over word meanings and possible alternate interpretations and irrelevant, non-literal parts of the quote, or even omitting the most important thing...

OH MY GOSH, TWO PEOPLE READ A QUOTE DIFFERENTLY.

What a concept.

Give me something that heavily implies that TMC can't be first

It's all circumstantial evidence. Then again, yours is all symbolic evidence.

or that two mirrors which are different in basically 90% of the areas you can compare them in are the same

I'm pretty sure most people here disagree with you intently.

or that Hyrule will be unflooded

Ha ha. No one sees me claiming this anymore.

that the Hyrule in FSA and ALttP ISN'T exactly the same Hyrule as the one in OoT, which I can certainly prove, again within those games

The existence of Death Mountain and Zora's Domain (yes, these are the only two locations that remain static throughout the series) across these games makes no difference, since they're mountains, and would exist above the sea, and in whatever country the Great Deku Tree forms when he unites the islands.


Now then, your argument against post-TWW 2D games is that Hyrule was destroyed.

This argument is meaningless. The game itself says outright that a new country will be built, that a new land will literally be formed by the plans of the Deku Tree, and that the gods intend for the people on the Great Sea to "one day awaken Hyrule."

Sure, you may say, "but the king of Hyrule wished that Hyrule would be gone."

Yes, he did. He wished that his kingdom of old would be gone. Just like he hoped that the Hero of Time, the same hero who saved Hyrule from Ganon, would appear. But the Hero of Time was long gone; instead he got a new hero, just like the new country would be a new Hyrule.

Now then, offer a substantial rebuttal to this.

Edited by LionHarted, 09 April 2008 - 08:50 AM.

[Malu CLBS]

If I can't claim that there are records of Hyrule on the Great Sea, you can't claim that they are "down there with it," either. Neither argument has evidence, both are speculatory. However, I would presume that because the population of Hyrule survived by fleeing to the mountaintops that they would carry some record with them.

Actually...

What became of that kingdom...?
None remain who know.
The memory of the kingdom vanished, but
its legend survived on the wind's breath.
On a certain island, it became customary to
garb boys in green when they came of age.

That means, the only memory of Hyrule that's left is the tradition of having boys dressed in green when they're 12 years old. No other record was kept. And I don't think KoRL, Jabun, the Deku Tree or Valoo, which directly come from the Hyrule era, kept any books.

This is kind of a plus, but what do they say in schools when there's a natural phenomenon or a fire? Forget about your stuff. Save yourself first.

Edited by Malu CLBS, 09 April 2008 - 12:34 PM.

[LionHarted]

What became of that kingdom...?
None remain who know.
The memory of the kingdom vanished, but
its legend survived on the wind's breath.

1) No one knows what happened to the kingdom. This explains the lack of accounts of the flood.
2) The memory of the kingdom vanished. Obviously, as most of the firsthand sources are now dead.
3) Its legend survived on the wind's breath. Obviously many of the legends survived, such as legends of the hero and legends of the goddesses. These are what I focus on when I say there is record of Hyrule.

[CID Farwin]

Absolutely false. There are many other contradictions which I've already pointed out, there are more of them than there are similarities. Your decision not to read my posts doesn't make my arguments as bad as yours. And regardless, it's ridiculous because the entire theory is reliant on FSA being on the Adult Timeline. If it isn't, there's no merit whatsoever. And yet the only thing it's supposed to prove is that FSA is on the Adult Timeline, which it's also necessary to be the case for it to be true at all. Which makes it completely impossible to actually use as evidence. You can't proceed on the assumption of your theory and say that makes it better to start with.

Now, I've been observing this debate, and maybe I just overlooked something, but what are these supposed contradictions? As far as I know, LionHarted (or at least myself, the one whom I can speak for) already has FSA in the Adult Timeline. The Dark Mirror is not used to prove that it goes in the Adult Timeline(because for it to work it has to already be assumed that it goes in the Adult Timeline, a rather bad way of arguing), rather, the fact that FSA is placed (by him and myself, at least) in the Adult Timeline makes it possible for the Mirror of Twilight to be the same mirror as the Dark Mirror.

[Impossible]

Reasons for the two mirrors to be the same:
- They're mirrors. (...)
- They relate to the sealing of dark tribes. (Which is purely a reason through the omission of details.)

Reasons for them to not be the same:
- The Mirror of Twilight is most likely much bigger, as it is not hand held.
- A dark tribe was imprisoned WITHIN the Dark Mirror, the Twili were sealed BY the Mirror of Twilight. (Remind me, was it actually said that they were sealed by it, or only that it was the last link left behind?) A very vital difference that shatters the concept of their purpose being the same.
- The Mirror of Twilight acts primarily as a portal to another world, to link the two, and nothing else. The Dark Mirror is used a lot and yet has no such capacity. The Mirror of Twilight is not a weapon.
- The Dark Mirror has the ability to create evil clones, the Mirror of Twilight does not. That is its primary purpose; it can produce evil beings from nothing. The Mirror of Twilight is never seen doing that, it merely has the power to corrupt. If it were going to produce evil clones, it would have.
- The Dark Mirror is simply evil, hence the above. It's a power of darkness. The Mirror of Twilight is not about darkness, but shadow, which TP explicitly says is NOT evil (see: Midna, and Zelda's comments on it). We know that from the events of the game, and that light and shadow must coexist. The Twilight Realm is more complex than evil, and there are no fucking Shadow Links in there hopping out of the mirror endlessly.
- The Mirror of Twilight serves as the last link the Godesses left to the Twilight (not evil) realm. The Dark Mirror serves as a weapon to create evil from nothing, due to the immense dark magic contained inside it - as we know from the sealing. The Dark Mirror was too dangerous to be anywhere near humans, the Mirror of Twilight posed absolutely no threat by itself.
- The Mirror of Twilight has been at the Arbiter's Grounds since ancient times (pre-OoT). The Dark Mirror has been in the Forest of Light since it was used to seal a tribe (see: the obvious intended meaning, in context). This was necessary immediately in order to sever it from the rest of the world, or its evil clone creating powers would come into effect as in FSA. They don't in TP. And it's impossible to reconcile their histories.

Even if the mirrors could be the same on the Adult Timeline, it's simply a fact that this is NOT evidence. It can't be, it's completely fucking circular and in no way supports any game placement. It's not necessary for the mirrors to be the same... Hell, it's not possible, either, but you can't seem to see that.

I hope Lex doesn't still have the guts to try and contradict me on intent when he proved in the TMC topic that he simply doesn't understand the concept of context or its (INTENTIONAL) significance in creating meaning.

Edited by Impossible, 11 April 2008 - 03:09 AM.

[LionHarted]

- The Mirror of Twilight is most likely much bigger, as it is not hand held.
- A dark tribe was imprisoned WITHIN the Dark Mirror, the Twili were sealed BY the Mirror of Twilight. (Remind me, was it actually said that they were sealed by it, or only that it was the last link left behind?) A very vital difference that shatters the concept of their purpose being the same.
- The Mirror of Twilight acts primarily as a portal to another world, to link the two, and nothing else. The Dark Mirror is used a lot and yet has no such capacity. The Mirror of Twilight is not a weapon.
- The Dark Mirror has the ability to create evil clones, the Mirror of Twilight does not. That is its primary purpose; it can produce evil beings from nothing. The Mirror of Twilight is never seen doing that, it merely has the power to corrupt. If it were going to produce evil clones, it would have.
- The Dark Mirror is simply evil, hence the above. It's a power of darkness. The Mirror of Twilight is not about darkness, but shadow, which TP explicitly says is NOT evil (see: Midna, and Zelda's comments on it). We know that from the events of the game, and that light and shadow must coexist. The Twilight Realm is more complex than evil, and there are no fucking Shadow Links in there hopping out of the mirror endlessly.
- The Mirror of Twilight serves as the last link the Godesses left to the Twilight (not evil) realm. The Dark Mirror serves as a weapon to create evil from nothing, due to the immense dark magic contained inside it - as we know from the sealing. The Dark Mirror was too dangerous to be anywhere near humans, the Mirror of Twilight posed absolutely no threat by itself.
- The Mirror of Twilight has been at the Arbiter's Grounds since ancient times (pre-OoT). The Dark Mirror has been in the Forest of Light since it was used to seal a tribe (see: the obvious intended meaning, in context). This was necessary immediately in order to sever it from the rest of the world, or its evil clone creating powers would come into effect as in FSA. They don't in TP. And it's impossible to reconcile their histories.

1) I never saw anyone hold the Dark Mirror in his/her hand.
2) I think we are to presume that they were sent to the Twilight Realm by the mirror, too, because of their tribe's connection to it. The designation of being sealed "within" the Dark Mirror doesn't exclude other interpretations besides "within this physical object."
3) The Mirror shards were not scattered randomly. They were hidden specifically by Zant, and this coincided with the appearance of monsters, just as monsters (Dark Links, if you want to be picky) appeared when Ganondorf hid the Dark Mirror. I can supply quotes to prove this.
4) Neither mirror produces evil beings from nothing. Both are seen to produce evil beings by using the evil/greed/etc. in people's hearts. Ganondorf's (presumably, as prior to the Heavens Link never came in contact with it) was used to create Dark Links.
5) "The evil within the shards is more powerful than you can imagine... You know we could be assembling something truly terrible here... It could be something that we'll ultimately have to destroy..." <-- This also suffices to imply that the Mirror could be used as a weapon.
6) The Dark Mirror doesn't create evil from nothing. >_> "That mirror reveals the wickedness within a person and brings it to life." And the above quote completely nullifies your argument here, as well. Do you know ANYTHING about the Mirror of Twilight?
7) The Mirror of Twilight has been at the Arbiter's Grounds since it was used to seal Ganondorf. We don't know if it was there before.

Edited by LionHarted, 11 April 2008 - 06:33 AM.

[Showsni]

I think the main point of contention is their different uses; one merely serves as a portal between realms (like ALttP's Magic Mirror), the other creates dark reflections of people. That's not really much of a similarity, so Occam's Razor would imply there's no point twisting facts to try and equate them. How does them being the same mirror help anything or make a difference anyway? We know mirrors are commonly used for magic; see ALttP. We may as well have three magic mirrors as two.

[LionHarted]

I think the main point of contention is their different uses; one merely serves as a portal between realms (like ALttP's Magic Mirror), the other creates dark reflections of people. That's not really much of a similarity, so Occam's Razor would imply there's no point twisting facts to try and equate them. How does them being the same mirror help anything or make a difference anyway? We know mirrors are commonly used for magic; see ALttP. We may as well have three magic mirrors as two.

TP's Mirror doesn't itself serve as a portal, but it is used to make a portal(s) to the dark/shadow realm.

Though FSA's Mirror doesn't share this property, we can glean two things: 1) that there are portals to a dark realm all over Hyrule in that game; 2) that it was used to seal a dark tribe long ago.

TP's Mirror was also used to seal a dark tribe long ago.

We have positive evidence linking one function of the two--that both were used to seal dark tribes.

We also have circumstantial evidence linking the means by which this happens--portals to the shadowy reflection/antithesis of Hyrule. (While the two differ in form, I might note that the official art for the Sacred Realm for ALttP looks like the Twilight Realm, whereas the Dark Worlds in ALttP and FSA both look like Hyrule. Therefore the differences seem inconsequential.)

As for the dark "reflections" of people: all that is said is that it takes the wickedness in a person's heart and brings it to life. This power creates dark clones of Link, but no one else. In fact, we see other characters who are actually transformed INTO monsters, a la TP. TP's mirror also apparently shares this property.

[CID Farwin]

Reasons for the two mirrors to be the same:
- They're mirrors. (...)
- They relate to the sealing of dark tribes.
- They contain evil power.

I'll tackle these one at a time for readability:

Reasons for them to not be the same:
- The Mirror of Twilight is most likely much bigger, as it is not hand held.

Most likely? With what proof? I recall seeing it's shards shrink significantly when Link obtains any. And who said the Dark Mirror was hand held?

- A dark tribe was imprisoned WITHIN the Dark Mirror, the Twili were sealed BY the Mirror of Twilight. (Remind me, was it actually said that they were sealed by it, or only that it was the last link left behind?) A very vital difference that shatters the concept of their purpose being the same.

Alright, so the Mirror opening a portal vs. the Mirror being the portal. I'll give you that, that's a pretty big difference.

- The Mirror of Twilight acts primarily as a portal to another world, to link the two, and nothing else. The Dark Mirror is used a lot and yet has no such capacity. The Mirror of Twilight is not a weapon.

And neither is the Dark Mirror? This point depends on a different point for it to be true.

- The Dark Mirror has the ability to create evil clones, the Mirror of Twilight does not. That is its primary purpose; it can produce evil beings from nothing. The Mirror of Twilight is never seen doing that, it merely has the power to corrupt. If it were going to produce evil clones, it would have.

It doesn't produce evil beings from nothing, though. It "arouses the wickedness within the person who has it and spawns an evil being." It creates Shadow Links from Ganon's evil.

- The Dark Mirror is simply evil, hence the above. It's a power of darkness. The Mirror of Twilight is not about darkness, but shadow, which TP explicitly says is NOT evil (see: Midna, and Zelda's comments on it). We know that from the events of the game, and that light and shadow must coexist. The Twilight Realm is more complex than evil, and there are no fucking Shadow Links in there hopping out of the mirror endlessly.

Excuse me, but the Mirror of Gloom(that's what the Mirror of Twilight is called) is evil. It is about darkness. The Twilight Realm is shadow, ala the majority of that point. There's no Shadow Links because Ganon made them in FSA.

- The Mirror of Twilight serves as the last link the Goddesses left to the Twilight (not evil) realm. The Dark Mirror serves as a weapon to create evil from nothing, due to the immense dark magic contained inside it - as we know from the sealing. The Dark Mirror was too dangerous to be anywhere near humans, the Mirror of Twilight posed absolutely no threat by itself.

No threat? You mean a fourth of it didn't turn Yeta into a monster? There's plenty of dark power within the Mirror of Gloom itself. In the right hands it looks like it could be used as a weapon.

- The Mirror of Twilight has been at the Arbiter's Grounds since ancient times (pre-OoT). The Dark Mirror has been in the Forest of Light since it was used to seal a tribe (see: the obvious intended meaning, in context). This was necessary immediately in order to sever it from the rest of the world, or its evil clone creating powers would come into effect as in FSA. They don't in TP. And it's impossible to reconcile their histories.

They don't, because the Mirror of Twilight was guarded by the Sages in Arbiter's Grounds; it's not like it's on display in Castle Town.

Even if the mirrors could be the same on the Adult Timeline, it's simply a fact that this is NOT evidence. It can't be, it's completely fucking circular and in no way supports any game placement.

I'm sorry, not evidence of what, exactly? Lex maybe, but I'm not using it as any sort of proof of game placement. Just asking, "could these mirrors be the same?" that's all.

Edited by CID Farwin, 11 April 2008 - 09:12 PM.

[Jumbie]

I was just reminded of recently translated passages:

世界と隔たれた砂漠・・・そこに取り残された鏡と死人の怨念・・・
The desert which was separated from the world… left behind at that place were the mirror and the grudge of the deceased…

そして、闇の一族とあの鏡が　この世界と関わりを持たぬよう　その神殿へ　かくしたのです。
And, in order for the clan of darkness and that mirror not to have a connection to this world, it was hidden away in that temple.

[Impossible]

1) I never saw anyone hold the Dark Mirror in his/her hand.

This was just my understanding from watching what Zelda does in FSA. Checking again, it's not perfectly clear what happens, but she does take the mirror in some way.

Aesthetically, they are very different, too. The Mirror of Twilight isn't really a mirror, it has no reflective surface.

2) I think we are to presume that they were sent to the Twilight Realm by the mirror, too, because of their tribe's connection to it. The designation of being sealed "within" the Dark Mirror doesn't exclude other interpretations besides "within this physical object."

You don't fucking get it, do you? To say that the Twili were imprisoned inside the mirror is NOT A TRUE STATEMENT, and NO INTERPRETATION would make it true. That alone makes the mirrors very different. Mirror of Twilight is said to be the last link the goddesses left to the Twilight Realm. Whatever the Dark Mirror connects to is the Dark Mirror's own world, because the evil power of that tribe lies directly within the dark mirror. You're ignoring the intended meaning because another one fits your theory better. Zelda says the Mirror of Twilight was left in the world for a good reason, it's not purely to create evil. It was there because it's necessary for light and shadow to coexist; so it needed to be in the world, not severed away from it. Because Twilight was not evil, it was only being used for evil. There was no dark Twili magic in the Mirror of Twilight.

They wrote the line in that way because that was how they wanted us to think about it. It wouldn't make sense for them to do something completely different, people at Nintendo aren't as goddamn nonsensical as you are. They write things with a clear meaning in mind.

3) The Mirror shards were not scattered randomly. They were hidden specifically by Zant, and this coincided with the appearance of monsters, just as monsters (Dark Links, if you want to be picky) appeared when Ganondorf hid the Dark Mirror. I can supply quotes to prove this.
4) Neither mirror produces evil beings from nothing. Both are seen to produce evil beings by using the evil/greed/etc. in people's hearts. Ganondorf's (presumably, as prior to the Heavens Link never came in contact with it) was used to create Dark Links.
6) The Dark Mirror doesn't create evil from nothing. >_> "That mirror reveals the wickedness within a person and brings it to life." And the above quote completely nullifies your argument here, as well. Do you know ANYTHING about the Mirror of Twilight?

Again, you don't seem to understand. I don't give a fuck what the Dark Mirror USES to make its evil beings, it still essentially creates an infinite number from thin air. The Mirror of Twilight does NOT do this. The Mirror of Twilight, being based on shadow, has a corrupting power, and attracts evil. It does NOT produce monsters, or shadow clones (which are not the same thing). That would be ridiculous, since aside from being broken, it doesn't even do that when Link is carrying it or when it is reformed in the full mirror. They would have noticed if monsters were jumping out of the mirror. They weren't, they just started coming because the mirror was there. The Mirror of Twilight also does not use the evil power in a person to spawn an evil being. That's simply a false description.

5) "The evil within the shards is more powerful than you can imagine... You know we could be assembling something truly terrible here... It could be something that we'll ultimately have to destroy..." <-- This also suffices to imply that the Mirror could be used as a weapon.
7) The Mirror of Twilight has been at the Arbiter's Grounds since it was used to seal Ganondorf. We don't know if it was there before.

It is not, however, inherently threatening to those near it, which the Dark Mirror is. If the Mirror of Twilight was so filled with evil power, it would have been severed away from the world. But we know it was in the open, where the sages were, before the timeline split, because it was there in OoT's era. It's totally irrelevant where it was before, because FSA is not before OoT.

- The Mirror of Twilight acts primarily as a portal to another world, to link the two, and nothing else. The Dark Mirror is used a lot and yet has no such capacity. The Mirror of Twilight is not a weapon.

And neither is the Dark Mirror? This point depends on a different point for it to be true.

No it doesn't. One is a portal, one is a prison. They're simply not the same thing. And the Dark Mirror is most certainly a weapon, that's why Ganon obtains it.

- The Dark Mirror has the ability to create evil clones, the Mirror of Twilight does not. That is its primary purpose; it can produce evil beings from nothing. The Mirror of Twilight is never seen doing that, it merely has the power to corrupt. If it were going to produce evil clones, it would have.

It doesn't produce evil beings from nothing, though. It "arouses the wickedness within the person who has it and spawns an evil being." It creates Shadow Links from Ganon's evil.

See what I said above. That's not the same thing I'm talking about.

- The Dark Mirror is simply evil, hence the above. It's a power of darkness. The Mirror of Twilight is not about darkness, but shadow, which TP explicitly says is NOT evil (see: Midna, and Zelda's comments on it). We know that from the events of the game, and that light and shadow must coexist. The Twilight Realm is more complex than evil, and there are no fucking Shadow Links in there hopping out of the mirror endlessly.

Excuse me, but the Mirror of Gloom(that's what the Mirror of Twilight is called) is evil. It is about darkness. The Twilight Realm is shadow, ala the majority of that point. There's no Shadow Links because Ganon made them in FSA.

First of all, I'll call it the Mirror of Twilight because that's it's English name. It's not WRONG, it only has one name in any one language. Who cares what the literal Japanese translation is? The game's name is Twilight Princess, even in Japanese.

Secondly, no, the Mirror of Twilight isn't evil, because it's a portal to the Twilight Realm, which is not evil either. The mirror may have a corrupting power, but that depends on who uses it - it doesn't affect Link at all. The mirror was left so that light and shadow would meet. Shadow isn't the same as evil, which is what Ganon represents.

Because the Mirror of Twilight is purely a portal, and does not CREATE things like the Dark Mirror does, it would imply that anything to come out of the mirror was inside the Twilight Realm already. And that's just absolutely false, if you apply it to the Dark Mirror. While Ganon may have caused Shadow Links to come out of the mirror, they come out by themselves, without anyone doing anything. And why wouldn't it be used for that purpose in TP? That would benefit Ganondorf, right?

No threat? You mean a fourth of it didn't turn Yeta into a monster? There's plenty of dark power within the Mirror of Gloom itself. In the right hands it looks like it could be used as a weapon.

And yet, there was absolutely no danger to the sages, who spent centuries around it. No monsters coming out or anything. It's not INHERENTLY a threat. The Dark Mirror must be, because it had to be disconnected from any human contact. The Mirror of Twilight simply had the power to corrupt someone in the wrong hands.

You're also ignoring the other huge contradiction, which is that for the mirrors to be the same, the Dark Mirror should have been in the Temple of Darkness before OoT and until FSA. It wasn't.

I'm sorry, not evidence of what, exactly? Lex maybe, but I'm not using it as any sort of proof of game placement. Just asking, "could these mirrors be the same?" that's all.

Evidence that FSA is after TWW. Which this is not.

How does the Mirror of Twilight appear in the Deku Tree's Hyrule, anyway? Magical science, or scientific magic? Or just fan fiction?

I don't understand why you (Lex) insist on continuing with this useless point. It's NOT helping your theory, because it doesn't strengthen the connection. In fact, it adds even MORE contradictions to FSA being after TWW, so it's safer to say that they're different. Dropping the idea would make your theory work better, instead of adding another ridiculous and unnecessary element to it. Trying to keep it viable is proving nothing, and it just shows how desperate you are to perceive anything as evidence for your theory - the same thing you did before PH's release, and even after it. This is barely more likely than the light force being made from the Sand of Hours, which was more baseless fan fiction. If you were looking at this objectively, the connection would NOT be strong enough to really persist with.

Edited by Impossible, 12 April 2008 - 01:20 AM.

[SOAP]

I never understood why people are so against drawing parallels.

The Dark Mirror is a cursed mirror that contains the evil of a Dark Tribe sealed in it.

The Twilight Mirror is a cursed mirror that acts as gateway to a shadowy world where the Twili are sealed.

FSA Dark World is a shadowy, almost psychedelic, mirror image of Hyrule.

When the Twilight Realm merges with Hyrule it creates a shadowy, almost psychedelic, mirror image of Hyrule.

In FSA they speak of a Dark Tribe.

The Twili are a Dark Tribe.

Obviously there will be differences. The creators like to allow the developement team to have their artistic license so details won't always match up. In fact, most of the time they never do. How much has Hyrule's geography changed over the years with each installment to the series? And yet how many people still maintain the idea that it's always the same Hyrule and just chalk up the extreme geographical changes to gameplay mechanics. Why is okay to draw parallel between various geographical landmarks but not to very similar magical items?

Seems that the mirror's utter destruction in TP seems to be the biggest issue but why can't FSA take place before TP? And why is the mirror being moved from the desert to the forest or vice versa a big deal? Didn't the mastersword get moved from the Temple of Time to the Castle basement at some point? And it's not that much of a stretch as the whole Temple of Time being moved from the foot of Death Mountain to deep in a forest southish of Lake Hylia.

Edited by SOAP, 12 April 2008 - 01:41 AM.

[Impossible]

FSA Dark World is a shadowy, almost psychedelic, mirror image of Hyrule.

FSA's Dark World is never stated to be related to the Dark Mirror. It's also without a doubt NOT the Twilight Realm, that should be obvious.

A parallel can't be drawn here because it's contradictory. The histories of the two mirrors differ completely. The functions of the two mirrors differ completely. FSA's account of the Dark Mirror can in no way, shape or form be seen as an accurate description of the Mirror of Twilight.

FSA can't take place before TP, because it has a new Ganon in it. There can't be an "ancient demon reborn" if the old one hasn't died yet. And that makes the mirror location problem even worse, since it goes from Arbiter's Grounds (OoT) to the Temple of Darkness and then back to Arbiter's Grounds again. And it's simply not worth basing any placement of FSA on something as minor as this. It's a single point, that's not definitive evidence.

The mirror being moved from the desert to the forest is a big deal because it fucking contradicts what FSA says about the mirror. The Master Sword and Temple of Time never move on the Child Timeline (one of the reasons why ALttP makes more sense there), it's simply Hyrule's geography that was reimagined, in the case of a game like TP.

Edited by Impossible, 12 April 2008 - 03:03 AM.

[LionHarted]

This was just my understanding from watching what Zelda does in FSA. Checking again, it's not perfectly clear what happens, but she does take the mirror in some way.

Aesthetically, they are very different, too. The Mirror of Twilight isn't really a mirror, it has no reflective surface.

So does Midna.

And how does the Mirror reflect its image to create the portal if it's not reflective? And how is it that I saw Yeta in its surface when she transformed?

Again, do you know anything about the Mirror of Twilight, because you seem to be getting all of its properties wrong.

To say that the Twili were imprisoned inside the mirror is NOT A TRUE STATEMENT, and NO INTERPRETATION would make it true.

We don't know the true nature of the Mirror's connection to the Twilight Realm. The portal to the realm is literally access by entering into the reflection it casts.

Whatever the Dark Mirror connects to is the Dark Mirror's own world, because the evil power of that tribe lies directly within the dark mirror.

Jhurvid argued this about the Twilight Mirror some time ago, and there's no reason for it to be true.

It was there because it's necessary for light and shadow to coexist; so it needed to be in the world, not severed away from it. Because Twilight was not evil, it was only being used for evil. There was no dark Twili magic in the Mirror of Twilight.

There is.
Dark magic.
In the.
Mirror of Twilight.

You are contradicting game quotes, now. Blatantly.

They wrote the line in that way because that was how they wanted us to think about it. It wouldn't make sense for them to do something completely different, people at Nintendo aren't as goddamn nonsensical as you are. They write things with a clear meaning in mind.

Yep. The link between light and shadow needs to exist.

That's why it's destroyed two seconds after Zelda says that.

Ha ha.

Yep. Nintendo are geniuses.

Clearly that's not what they meant.

Again, you don't seem to understand. I don't give a fuck what the Dark Mirror USES to make its evil beings, it still essentially creates an infinite number from thin air. The Mirror of Twilight does NOT do this. The Mirror of Twilight, being based on shadow, has a corrupting power, and attracts evil. It does NOT produce monsters, or shadow clones (which are not the same thing).

Yes. It. Does.

Yeta clearly says that the appearance of monsters at Snowpeak coincides with the appearance of the Mirror Shard there. By proxy, we can assume this is true of all the other regions of Hyrule.

That no clones are created doesn't really matter. That's like saying that no two Ganons are the same unless they both summon Phantom Ganon.

The Mirror of Twilight also does not use the evil power in a person to spawn an evil being. That's simply a false description.
[...]
It is not, however, inherently threatening to those near it, which the Dark Mirror is.

"You saw how nasty that monster was, right? The evil within the shards is more powerful than you can imagine... You know we could be assembling something truly terrible here..."
[...]
"But you must be prepared, for a dangerous power resides in those fragments..."
"Wife...look bad, uh? Not healthy since mirror..."
"To think the Mirror of Twilight has the power to change people like that..."

If the Mirror of Twilight was so filled with evil power, it would have been severed away from the world. But we know it was in the open, where the sages were, before the timeline split, because it was there in OoT's era. It's totally irrelevant where it was before, because FSA is not before OoT.

I wouldn't call the Arbiter's Grounds "in the open." It's no more "in the open" than the Forest Temple in FSA.

How does the Mirror of Twilight appear in the Deku Tree's Hyrule, anyway? Magical science, or scientific magic? Or just fan fiction?

What, do you think they're going to leave something like that at the mercy of the sea? Who knows what havoc it could wreak then?

In fact, it adds even MORE contradictions to FSA being after TWW, so it's safer to say that they're different.

How, pray tell? And I never said it was evidence. I argued that that the Mirror of Twilight appears to have been so closely based on the Dark Mirror that there is a good chance they might be the same, despite irrelevant semantic differences between it and FSA that are really unexplored in FSA anyway. Heck, there's even a clear homage to the Shadow Links in the scene describing the invasion of the Dark Tribe. The biggest contradiction between the two is that the Mirror was destroyed in TP, but is clearly quite intact in FSA. How would this be possible? Well, the same way that Ganon is able to be sealed in both the Twilight Realm by the Mirror of Twilight and in the Sacred Realm by the Hero of Time: through two alternate timelines, two different destinies.

It's a solution to a dilemma, just like you placing ALttP after the Child Timeline OoT instead of Adult OoT was.

[Impossible]

How is it that you ALWAYS miss the point?

And how does the Mirror reflect its image to create the portal if it's not reflective? And how is it that I saw Yeta in its surface when she transformed?

Again, do you know anything about the Mirror of Twilight, because you seem to be getting all of its properties wrong.

The Dark Mirror is a normal-looking mirror with a normal, clear surface. The Mirror of Twilight is patterned and looks completely different, not like an actual mirror at all. That was my point.

We don't know the true nature of the Mirror's connection to the Twilight Realm.

...Yes we do. You're wrong.

There is.
Dark magic.
In the.
Mirror of Twilight.

You are contradicting game quotes, now. Blatantly.

Pot to fucking kettle, huh? You're contradicting FSA, as well as TP. Blatantly. And repeatedly. Both in what the text says and what we're shown. What the fuck makes you entitled to screw with the meaning of something? Is it because everyone here but you knows that you don't understand the role of intent or context in Zelda games? It goes beyond freaking semantics. There's only one thing the game tells us at that point, and you're denying that. It's a contradiction.

TP says that there's an evil power in the mirror, yes. But I didn't say that there wasn't. I said that the Twili are not evil, and there's no dark Twili magic in the Mirror of Twilight. The function of the mirror is not the same no matter how you want to twist quotes. Which is what everything I've been saying in the TMC topic was to try to teach you NOT to do. Evidently, you haven't learnt.

Yeta clearly says that the appearance of monsters at Snowpeak coincides with the appearance of the Mirror Shard there. By proxy, we can assume this is true of all the other regions of Hyrule.

That no clones are created doesn't really matter. That's like saying that no two Ganons are the same unless they both summon Phantom Ganon.

You don't seem to get it. At all. THE MIRROR DOES NOT PRODUCE MONSTERS. Monsters appear at Snowpeak because the mirror is there, but the mirror does not fucking make monsters. If it did, it would be too dangerous to be kept near the sages, as monsters would be jumping out of it all the time. They never do. The mirror CORRUPTS Yeta, but its powers are in no way comparable to the Dark Mirror's.

Even the Dark Mirror didn't just make monsters, it made beings of darkness. And there aren't monsters leaving the Twilight Realm, which is the only thing that mirror leads to. In FSA, we don't ever see inside the mirror, and hence we can only assume what we're TOLD about how it works. And my assumption is quite obviously better than yours, because it's what the actual text says. You know damn well you're contradicting the clear meaning of that, even while attacking me for not being true to your interpretation. And only your interpretation needs to be defended here, because yours is the one messing with what the game itself says..

You're also completely fucking ignoring my examples in favour of your own, even though the two differ completely in context.

I wouldn't call the Arbiter's Grounds "in the open." It's no more "in the open" than the Forest Temple in FSA.

The sages are there. Link and Midna go there. It never does anything in that time. It's not separated from human contact, period.

What, do you think they're going to leave something like that at the mercy of the sea? Who knows what havoc it could wreak then?

Wow, this is just bad. Like, utterly terrible on so many levels. Whoa.

It's a solution to a dilemma, just like you placing ALttP after the Child Timeline OoT instead of Adult OoT was.

A solution to WHAT dilemma? There is no dilemma. It's a dilemma YOU'VE CREATED by fucking ASSUMING a theory that is not true. It's a fan-made explanation of how something that doesn't work, and has absolutely no requirement or need to be true, can still be made possible. You're making huge logical leaps if you think any of this is necessary or reasoned.

[LionHarted]

How is it that you ALWAYS miss the point?

Because it's not the point?

It's your point?

The Dark Mirror is a normal-looking mirror with a normal, clear surface. The Mirror of Twilight is patterned and looks completely different, not like an actual mirror at all. That was my point.

The Dark Mirror is a 2D sprite.
The Mirror of Twilight is a 3D sprite.

That suffices to explain THIS difference. *rolls eyes*

...Yes we do. You're wrong.

No, we really don't. We only know that it is, and that it can be used as a portal.

You're contradicting FSA, as well as TP. Blatantly. And repeatedly.

I've yet to see a concrete example of this!

TP says that there's an evil power in the mirror, yes. But I didn't say that there wasn't.

Secondly, no, the Mirror of Twilight isn't evil

That's what you said.

You don't seem to get it. At all. THE MIRROR DOES NOT PRODUCE MONSTERS. Monsters appear at Snowpeak because the mirror is there, but the mirror does not fucking make monsters.

YES. IT. DOES.

Midna says that the Armogohma is a product of the Mirror.

The mirror CORRUPTS Yeta, but its powers are in no way comparable to the Dark Mirror's.

"Corrupts", or "brings the evil in her to life"?

Because I clearly see it being based on the second.

The rest of your arguments simply amount to "I'm right, you're wrong."

[Malu CLBS]

I argued that that the Mirror of Twilight appears to have been so closely based on the Dark Mirror that there is a good chance they might be the same, despite irrelevant semantic differences between it and FSA that are really unexplored in FSA anyway. Heck, there's even a clear homage to the Shadow Links in the scene describing the invasion of the Dark Tribe.

If you're talking about the famous Lanayru talk about the "interlopers" (which we know in the translation are only "people"), then you're a bit off. Lanayru says

Among those living in the light,
interlopers who excelled at magic
appeared.

Now, according Jumbie's translation, they were only people. Not saying which race, we only know they were people. So it would be people already living in the light world. Therefore there was no invasion, much less were they called Dark Tribe. They were Dark Tribe only after being sealed in the Twilight and getting used to it.

Also, that scene was extremely symbolical. The Dark Links are there to symbolize evil beings, that were very similar to normal people (Link and Ilia). Though normal people could be easily corrupted by power (the white eyes), they didn't have the magic power of the "interlopers" (distinguished Dark Link from white eyed normal people). The scene was done that way to impress the players and show them how power can be so awfully corrupting; it doesn't mean that any Link in the history of Hyrule wanted the Triforce so badly they killed their own friends, cause we know the incarnation of the hero wouldn't do either of those.

I know FSA being in the adult timeline really works for your timeline, but you shouldn't misinterpret Lanayru's retelling of the facts.

[LionHarted]

I just said it was an homage. XD