269 replies to this topic

[Hero of Slime]

TMC explainns the origin of the green hat Link wears. And nothing says it can't be first.

[Jumbie]

TMC only mentioned the one and said that it was passed from the minish to the hero, then to the royal family, then to zelda and then to Vaati.
I don't know how I could find a quote in TWW that proves this.

Oh sorry, I meant TMC of course, not TWW.. Anyway, do you know a quote in TMC that says the Force was passed from the Hero to the Royals? If I saw that, then I might be convinced...

Now, you suggest that I find any evidence that people use to say that TMC goes before OoT? Hm... That's actually a pretty good idea... Okay, so let me hear what you all think. How can TMC go before OoT?

Well, actually I was thinking that you could have some thoughts about it yourself The Zol's hat evidence is one thing, and secondly we have the line in the credits, and... that's it, as far as I recall. It would be good to find something that nobody has mentioned yet...

Edited by Jumbie, 20 July 2006 - 07:26 PM.

[coinilius]

Oh sorry, I meant TMC of course, not TWW.. Anyway, do you know a quote in TMC that says the Force was passed from the Hero to the Royals? If I saw that, then I might be convinced...

Not a quote, but there is implication that there is only one Light Force being bandied about in TMC.. the story told in the windows only really refers to a singular Light Force that is given to the hero, then is said (and shown) to be 'embodied in Hyrule's princess.'

"The tiny Picori appeared from the sky, bringing the hero of men a sword and a golden light."

"And the force of the golden light, embodied in Hyrule's princess, shone forth upon the lands."

The way that the 'force of the golden light' is referenced there is a reference to the 'golden light' given to the hero earlier in the story. The story establishes the 'golden light' as something given to the hero, then refers to it again after the deed is done as being embodied by the princess.

Elzo also refers to the Light Force as a singular object/power/gift - "The gifts the Picori gave the humans... What you call the Picori Blade was the first of those gifts. The second... Well, you call it light force, but it is a source of limitless magical power."

[Doopliss]

Jumbie, you need to prove that the Light Force is actually split in three parts to prove it could be the Triforce. However, you haven't given us anything to prove that it is divided in parts, while the game implies that it is only one. In the backsotry the Minish are only giving the hero a single Triangle and we never see Vaati trying to take a piece from Link and Zelda separately, he only steals the Light Force as a whole. Please correct me if i'm wrong on this. I haven't played TMC nearly for a year because I couldn't find the bow!

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 16. XLVI

[Hero of Slime]

TMC does not mention two light forces, it talks about the light force Zelda has as being the same one given to the Hero. I don't recall any of the exact lines about the light force since it has been a while since I played through TMC, but I do not rember anything about two light forces.

[Fyxe]

TMC explainns the origin of the green hat Link wears. And nothing says it can't be first.

I think you guys have taken care of the Light Force issue, but this has always bugged me... Where in the game does it say that the Link in TMC was the first Link to wear an Elzo-like green hat? I suppose it's in there somewhere but I forget where.

[MikePetersSucks]

I disagree. If the Force is the Triforce, then there have to be three pieces: the ToC with the Hero of Men, the ToW with Zelda (and Vaati), and the ToP is not shown in TMC.
Nowhere does it say that "there's only one Light Force". That's just a silly assumption.
Sure, the series is messed up through this, but that's just the way it is!
Yes it does, finally giving us an explanation how the Triforce pieces are passed on to the descendants.
It's not the complete Triforce, of course, only the ToW (or have you ever seen Zelda with something else than the ToW?!). And yes, Triforce pieces are *always* held inside the bodies of their bearers.
Huh, the sky would have to be golden? Lol, where did you get that from! I'm afraid you're quoting that poem which the US localizers said to be from the Book of Mudora.. However, in Japanese it says nothing about golden sky, nor does the name Golden Land even exist.
As for the stone spell: Zelda actually tried to protect herself with the Force's power, but Vaati's magic was stronger - just like the ToW cannot fully block Ganon's magic.
You're contradicting yourself. You see that Zelda's Force cannot protect her from the spell, and we both agree that the ToW is too weak for protecting. So, the Force has the same power as the ToW!
Apparently they do. Remember, each Triforce piece can be broken into 8 shards. Vaati wears the Minish Cap, which allowed his wizardry to increase, in the first place. Now with some shards of the Force, Vaati is strong enough to transform into a demon, a form in which he stays as until he disappears in FSA.
Conclusions based on common sense, and matching up things with a similar nature. The Hero of Men had one third of the Force, Zelda has one third of the Force, and the last third is lost. That's all my assumptions, but based on what we have seen in previous games!

Please tone down the arrogance.

1. We only see one Triforce. If the Triforce has to come in three parts (which is preposterous due to LOZ) then the Light Force is not the Triforce by your own fucking logic.

2. It says right in the game that the same Light Force used by the Hero of Men was embodied in the princess.

3. But the game isn't messed up if you go with the equally, if not more valid, theory that the Light Force is a seperate entity. Occam's Razor is absolute.

4. But Triforce pieces aren't passed to descendants except when the Triforce of Wisdom and the Triforce of Power are kept in a castle room in LOZ or when Tetra's family passes around a Triforce of Wisdom shard in the form of a necklace. Never is a Triforce piece passed genetically.

5. Yes, I know little fragments are kept inside a person's body. I didn't deny that at all.

6. Actually, the Japanese sources do say the sky would be dyed gold by the Triforce. It's just reworded all the way up the bunghole.

7. Yea, exactly. She tried to block the stone spell, but she failed. If she had a Triforce piece, she wouldn't of been bested by the Rat in the Hat.

8. I'm not contradicting myself. You're putting words in my mouth now. I didn't agree on shit. You can't say "blah blah blah" and then in the same post say "We agree and you're thus contradicting yourself." Get your head out your ass and sniff the coffee.

9. A Triforce piece can be broken, but there's never an instance where it can be stolen except by another Triforce bearer because the Triforce serves a person FOR LIFE.

10. Your assumptions only work if the Triforce is the Light Force. The Light Force is a gift from the Picori. And since the Picori MAKE their gifts (the hat, the sword, the Force Gems, etc) I have no idea why the Light Force would be different.

[Hero of Slime]

Where in the game does it say that the Link in TMC was the first Link to wear an Elzo-like green hat?

I doesn't say that anywhere. That is why it is possible for TMC to not be first.

[Fyxe]

7. Yea, exactly. She tried to block the stone spell, but she failed. If she had a Triforce piece, she wouldn't of been bested by the Rat in the Hat.

While I agree with most of what you are saying, I've never bought this. Why would having a Triforce piece make you invulnerable to magic? Hell, Link has slain a fully powered Ganon, who had the whole Triforce under his control... With one magic sword and some magic arrows. Even if Zelda has a Triforce piece I still think she could be frozen if someone had a lot of magic power, and that hat gave Vaati *loads* of power.

9. A Triforce piece can be broken, but there's never an instance where it can be stolen except by another Triforce bearer because the Triforce serves a person FOR LIFE.

Also, I don't know about this, either. While it seems likely that you need a Triforce piece of your own to draw a piece from someone else, we can't take that as solid fact. Surely killing someone can't be the only way of taking a Triforce piece from them, after all, they are just innanimate objects.

However, the way the Light Force is 'drained' implies it's something less solid, anyway.

And since the Picori MAKE their gifts (the hat, the sword, the Force Gems, etc)

Did the Picori make the Force Gems? It makes sense, obviously, but is it ever stated to be them?

[Jumbie]

Not a quote, but there is implication that there is only one Light Force being bandied about in TMC.. the story told in the windows only really refers to a singular Light Force that is given to the hero, then is said (and shown) to be 'embodied in Hyrule's princess.'
Elzo also refers to the Light Force as a singular object/power/gift - "The gifts the Picori gave the humans... What you call the Picori Blade was the first of those gifts. The second... Well, you call it light force, but it is a source of limitless magical power."

Thank you, this changed my mind a bit. Reading this, I'm now accepting that the Force needn't necessarily be the Triforce. But none of you can disprove it is, either. Just one more thing we will never know.

Occam's Razor is absolute.

I already told you, I forgot what Occam's Razor is. And I don't wanna know, since there's gotta be a way to theorize about the Zelda timeline without knowing every bit of philosophy or whatever this is.

8. I'm not contradicting myself. You're putting words in my mouth now. I didn't agree on shit. You can't say "blah blah blah" and then in the same post say "We agree and you're thus contradicting yourself." Get your head out your ass and sniff the coffee.

As I had read it, we actually did agree that the ToW isn't able to protect Zelda - unless you have changed your mind since then.

Did the Picori make the Force Gems? It makes sense, obviously, but is it ever stated to be them?

No, they didn't make them. There are no Force Gems in TMC, and FSA says that they are the crystalline form of the Four Sword's power, which was in TMC infused to the blade by the Four Elements. Now, unless someone is to say the Four Elements were also created by the Minish...

I doesn't say that anywhere. That is why it is possible for TMC to not be first.

Yes, so the 'green hat' evidence is not one. Now that you partly disproved my Force=Triforce belief, I figure there is not really any hint on TMC's placement anywhere else. Or is there?

Edited by Jumbie, 21 July 2006 - 09:03 PM.

[Mad Scrub]

Yes, so the 'green hat' evidence is not one. Now that you partly disproved my Force=Triforce belief, I figure there is not really any hint on TMC's placement anywhere else. Or is there?

Although it's never said in TMC, I think the opening sequence makes it clear that the TMC can go before OoT as the previous Link (the HoM) is shown without a hat making TMC Link the first Link to start the tradition.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yourself, please tone down the language. Where you said "timeline is fucked up", I repeated it as "messed up". Where you say "fucking", I say "damned". While you are a child, I am a man. There's more civilized ways to express one's displeasure, regardless if you're American or not.

I'm not a child. I'm just angry recently due to four deaths in the family. Get over it.

I already told you, I forgot what Occam's Razor is. And I don't wanna know, since there's gotta be a way to theorize about the Zelda timeline without knowing every bit of philosophy or whatever this is.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Occam's_razor

Oho, these lines tell quite a lot about your mental capacity... As I had read it, we actually did agree that the ToW isn't able to protect Zelda - unless you have changed your mind since then.
Is this the best instance you could find to store a nice little insulting metaphor? Aww, I'm sure you could do better than that. Quick, back to school and learn some nice curses or proverbs, or whatever you call that waste of typespace.
...And to think I've let myself be killed by you! Bah, I thought you were making fun

I never agreed to anything. You just assumed. And we all know what they say about assuming. I'm actually one of the oldest members of the board, and haven't gone to school in five years. Like I said, for personal reasons, I don't care enough to bother about watching myself. You say the Triforce of Wisdom can't protect Zelda, but I never once said in my posts "I agree" or "I disagree" and regardless of the case, you can't say I agreed to the idea without putting words in my mouth, an arrogant act and a "no-no" in debates.

No, they didn't make them. There are no Force Gems in TMC, and FSA says that they are the crystalline form of the Four Sword's power, which was in TMC infused to the blade by the Four Elements. Now, unless someone is to say the Four Elements were also created by the Minish...

The way I figure, the Force Gems are the source of the Four Sword's power. The Four Sword was made by the Picori. Thus, the Picori made the Force Gems, or atleast originates from their world or something. Woo.

[Jumbie]

Hey, I'm very sorry man, there was of course no way of knowing... I'll edit some of my posts immediately. And I won't ever bother about your language anymore, I promise!

but I never once said in my posts "I agree" or "I disagree"

And I didn't say that you used those words yourself, but I just wanted to point out that your opinion is shared by me.

[MikePetersSucks]

What leads you to believe I share your opinion? I've never once addressed the issue.

[coinilius]

Thank you, this changed my mind a bit. Reading this, I'm now accepting that the Force needn't necessarily be the Triforce. But none of you can disprove it is, either. Just one more thing we will never know.

BTW, Jumbie, I wasn't trying to implie one way or the other in regards to the Triforce/Light Force thing - just that they only refer to the Light Force as a singular power/gift/object/whatever you'd class it as. I personally think either stance can be argued as the creators intention just as well as the other - it's something that we don't know at the moment... but not necesarily something we'll 'never know' like you mentioned, as a later game might shed some more, ahem, light on the situation. I wouldn't hold my breath, but if they do something involving the FS mythos again it could come up.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(The Composer Brothers in OOT) We brothers also served the Royal Family, and we were assigned to study the hereditary mystic powers of the family....

We had a mission to analyze the mysterious powers of Hyrule's Royal Family....

Maybe the lightforce is the 'mystic' or 'mysterious' powers of the Royal Family that the Composer Brothers are speaking of. Zelda seems to have [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of light-based and clairvoyant powers--maybe these are apart of the lightforce. The lightforce was given to the Hero of Man (TMC intro) to fight the great evil of that time period, then it was received by the Princess and Royal Family of that era. Since then, those powers have been passed through the Royal Family from generation to generation. Heck, in OOT--when light arrows were first used in the series--Zelda gave them to Link. She also used them pretty well in TWW's final battle (not saying that anyone else couldn't shoot them). However this is just my take on the lightforce debate.

[Arturo]

You have mentioned a quote to disprove the light force being the Triforce. But I think it's a proof that it actually is:

"The second...
Well, you call it light force, but it is a source of limitless magical power.
If Vaati were to get it now, it would be devastating."

I have some proofs to believe they are the same:

1. Ezlo implies that light force is not its true name.
2. Contrary to the hereditary powers of the Royal Family, the light force has a limitless power as the Triforce or True Force ("If that one seeks the True Force, that one must acquire the two lost parts."Princess Zelda).
3. This is pretty obvious: both of them are triangles.
4. The light force comes from the Minish world and the Triforce from the Sacred Realm. Too much coincidence.
5. Minish seem to care for the Triforce (Do you remember the little man who gives the ToC to Link in AoL?).
6. The hero of men won with COURAGE and WISDOM.

But my main point is that the light force is too powerful to be something different from the True Force.

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[coinilius]

You have mentioned a quote to disprove the light force being the Triforce. But I think it's a proof that it actually is:

Like I said before, that quote was never ment to 'prove' that the Triforce and the Light Force were seperate things, just that there was only one Light Force mentioned in TMC (the one given to the hero and then embodied in the princess). I think that quite a case can be made either way in regards to the Light Force/Triforce connection.

[MikePetersSucks]

I have some proofs to believe they are the same:

1. Ezlo implies that light force is not its true name.
2. Contrary to the hereditary powers of the Royal Family, the light force has a limitless power as the Triforce or True Force ("If that one seeks the True Force, that one must acquire the two lost parts."Princess Zelda).
3. This is pretty obvious: both of them are triangles.
4. The light force comes from the Minish world and the Triforce from the Sacred Realm. Too much coincidence.
5. Minish seem to care for the Triforce (Do you remember the little man who gives the ToC to Link in AoL?).
6. The hero of men won with COURAGE and WISDOM.

1. One's the chances of the Hylians giving something an alias so close to it's original name on accident? I always thought that the Light Force was called some ridiculously unpronouncable Minish name.
2. Yea, and one Triforce piece has infinite power, right? No. Nor does the Light Force behave like we know the Triforce to behave.
3. OH WOOOOOOW! The Master Sword and the Four Sword are bothy SWORDS! They must be the same! The Force Gems are triangles! They must be Triforce pieces too! They reuse civilian sprites to represent multiple townspeople! All those people must be the one guy running around to confuse you! (This is of course, not to mention that the Light Force is never actually shown in Triangle form, and that's just artist's interpretation like how Ganon was depicted as a demon before he even shapeshifted into Piggy Ganon in TWW's prologue.)
4. ...so what? The Minish World and the Sacred Realm are not the same, if that's what you're implying. The Minish made ALL of their other gifts. Why would the Light Force be any different? If they can make a hat as powerful as the Light Force, I don't see why they can't just make the Light Force.
5. Where is this ever said? Because that little man was quite obviously human, and I don't believe they had the Minish in mind when they made that guy or vice versa. You're just grabbing for straws.
6. And LA Link woke up the Wind Fish with Courage, Wisdom, and Power. Doesn't mean jack squat.

So only like...TWO of your points are of merit. That's a third. The other third is just bullcrap that's been used in Zelda since the beginning, and the last third is just shit you're pulling out your ass.

[Arturo]

1. One's the chances of the Hylians giving something an alias so close to it's original name on accident? I always thought that the Light Force was called some ridiculously unpronouncable Minish name.

Well, Minish seem to speak the same language as the Hylians. And it is not that close. It's an evident name. If it served the Hero of Men (another imaginative name) to destroy the darkness, it must be light. And it gave force to the Hero. So Light Force.

2. Yea, and one Triforce piece has infinite power, right? No. Nor does the Light Force behave like we know the Triforce to behave.

Did I ever talk about Triforce pieces? I quoted Zelda talking about the True Force. And the True Force is ominpotent, as its name implies.It's the entire Triforce. It doesn't behave as we generally know it to, I know. I see the Light Force as the very essence of the Triforce, that is passed from generation to generation, but not the same way as in TWW. It doesn't work the same, but it must be the same.

3. OH WOOOOOOW! The Master Sword and the Four Sword are bothy SWORDS! They must be the same! The Force Gems are triangles! They must be Triforce pieces too! They reuse civilian sprites to represent multiple townspeople! All those people must be the one guy running around to confuse you! (This is of course, not to mention that the Light Force is never actually shown in Triangle form, and that's just artist's interpretation like how Ganon was depicted as a demon before he even shapeshifted into Piggy Ganon in TWW's prologue.)

But it is canon, anyway. If the creators decided to represent the light force as a triangle it must have a reason.

4. ...so what? The Minish World and the Sacred Realm are not the same, if that's what you're implying. The Minish made ALL of their other gifts. Why would the Light Force be any different? If they can make a hat as powerful as the Light Force, I don't see why they can't just make the Light Force.

The hat doesn't have infinite power, as does the light force. And it is never said that the Minish made all their gifts. It's just said they brought a golden light (Golden Triangles........), not that they created it. And how do you know that the Minish World and the Sacred Realm are not the same?

5. Where is this ever said? Because that little man was quite obviously human, and I don't believe they had the Minish in mind when they made that guy or vice versa. You're just grabbing for straws.

I know they didn't have him in mind. But he is obviously a Minish. Too small for being a human.

6. And LA Link woke up the Wind Fish with Courage, Wisdom, and Power. Doesn't mean jack squat.

And LA Link was the same as the ALttP one. And the ALttP touched the entire Triforce.

EDIT: I deleted a comment because it was offensive.

Edited by Arturo, 23 July 2006 - 03:03 PM.

[Fyxe]

Well, Minish seem to speak the same language as the Hylians.

They don't. For heck's sake, there's a whole sidequest involving finding a special... Plant... Thing to translate what they're saying and allow Link to speak Minish. Play the game again.

Did I ever talk about Triforce pieces? I quoted Zelda talking about the True Force.

I expect the 'True Force' thing was added by NoA and shouldn't be capitalised in such a manner. It's certainly never been mentioned again.

But it is canon, anyway. If the creators decided to represent the light force as a triangle it must have a reason.

I agree with this bit. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a part of the Triforce though.

And how do you know that the Minish World and the Sacred Realm are not the same?

Wouldn't they call it the Sacred Realm? And if the Minish bring the Triforce from the Sacred Realm to Hyrule, doesn't that mess up the whole... Ganon finding it thing?

I know they didn't have him in mind. But he is obviously a Minish.

...You're blind.

Too small for being a human.

He's too big to be a Minish. He's just another of the king's guardians. Hell, he tries to kill Link using Dark Link.

And LA Link was the same as the ALttP one. And the ALttP touched the entire Triforce.

There have been constant references to Link's courage, wisdom and power throughout the series, whether he has the Triforce or not. It doesn't mean anything. It's just a recurring theme. The traits are important in Hyrule.

[Arturo]

They don't. For heck's sake, there's a whole sidequest involving finding a special... Plant... Thing to translate what they're saying and allow Link to speak Minish. Play the game again.

Yes, I now remember. I should really play it again, since I just remember some bits. *Hides in shame because of this big mistake*

I expect the 'True Force' thing was added by NoA and shouldn't be capitalised in such a manner. It's certainly never been mentioned again.

Are you sure? If I could understand Japanese... Anyway, I like using the name True Force because it emphasizes the omnipotence of the Triforce.

I agree with this bit. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a part of the Triforce though.

Doesn't have to, but I find it logical.

Wouldn't they call it the Sacred Realm?

Sacred Realm is the Hylian name, I don't think the Minish would call their land "Sacred Realm". That would be stupid.

And if the Minish bring the Triforce from the Sacred Realm to Hyrule, doesn't that mess up the whole... Ganon finding it thing?

Not at all. The light force is studied in depth (where all the knowledge of the Triforce in OoT comes) and at the time of the ancient Sages, it is returned to the Sacred Realm, because of the problems it has caused (I see it a bit like what happens with the Majora's Mask)

...You're blind.
He's too big to be a Minish.

Adore Fyxe, goddess of vision!!!

Yes, he's big compared with the Minish we see in The Minish Cap, but Ezlo in the TMC ending (I have seen it today in TSA's speedrun) is as bit as Zelda and Link. But he's less than half Link's height. That's not normal for a human.

He's just another of the king's guardians. Hell, he tries to kill Link using Dark Link.

Using your logic the Gods of TWW are evil, because Link has to fight that great machine called Gohdan. It's just a proof for him. The same for Dark Link.

There have been constant references to Link's courage, wisdom and power throughout the series, whether he has the Triforce or not. It doesn't mean anything. It's just a recurring theme. The traits are important in Hyrule.

References to Link's Wisdom:

OoT, LA, OoX, LoZ

References to Link's Power:

LA, OoX, LoZ

If we don't count the one to Link's wisdom in OoT (just once, by the Deku Tree who says he needs his courage and wisdom), in all the others, Link has an actual relation with that piece of the Triforce.

[MikePetersSucks]

Wow, I love your English. You have discovered me the true beauty of the language in your metaphors.

As I told Jumbie, I lost four family members this week. Fuck off.

Well, Minish seem to speak the same language as the Hylians. And it is not that close. It's an evident name. If it served the Hero of Men (another imaginative name) to destroy the darkness, it must be light. And it gave force to the Hero. So Light Force.

Play the game.

Did I ever talk about Triforce pieces? I quoted Zelda talking about the True Force. And the True Force is ominpotent, as its name implies.It's the entire Triforce. It doesn't behave as we generally know it to, I know. I see the Light Force as the very essence of the Triforce, that is passed from generation to generation, but not the same way as in TWW. It doesn't work the same, but it must be the same.

The essence of the Triforce is a sentient being imbued with the Triforce itself. It's the voice that instructs the finder to make a wish and all that jazz. Seperating the very essence of the Triforce from the Triforce is needlessly complicating things to the point of distorting facts.

But it is canon, anyway. If the creators decided to represent the light force as a triangle it must have a reason.

If you're gonna say that, the Force Gems are Triforce pieces too.

The hat doesn't have infinite power, as does the light force. And it is never said that the Minish made all their gifts. It's just said they brought a golden light (Golden Triangles........), not that they created it. And how do you know that the Minish World and the Sacred Realm are not the same?

The Minish Cap is supposed to be able to grant any wish. That's infinite power to me. Anyway, they created the Four Sword, the Four Elements, the Minish Cap, the Force Gems, etc. Everything they've ever brought to Hyrule was said to be created by them. Why would the Light Force be the one solitary gift to not fit the pattern? As for why the Minish World and the Sacred Realm not being the same, Elzo said that the only entrance to the Minish World only opened every 100 years. The Sacred Realm has many, many entrances that remain open at all times, and the Sacred Realm is also empty save the Triforce and the Temple of Light.

I know they didn't have him in mind. But he is obviously a Minish. Too small for being a human.

The Minish weren't even invented then. How in god's name can you say he's a Minish without changing the facts? As for being too small to be a human, he's a midget. There. Problem solved. And if he was a Minish, he'd have white fur and mouse ears. He does not.

And LA Link was the same as the ALttP one. And the ALttP touched the entire Triforce.

Yea, but he didn't keep it. All of the Links have proved their Courage, Wisdom, and Power in every adventure. It's kind've what makes him the hero, and it's a running theme in the series.

Sacred Realm is the Hylian name, I don't think the Minish would call their land "Sacred Realm". That would be stupid.

It's not stupider than "Minish World"

Not at all. The light force is studied in depth (where all the knowledge of the Triforce in OoT comes) and at the time of the ancient Sages, it is returned to the Sacred Realm, because of the problems it has caused (I see it a bit like what happens with the Majora's Mask)

That only works if you put TMC before OOT in the timeline. About half of the community doesn't.

Yes, he's big compared with the Minish we see in The Minish Cap, but Ezlo in the TMC ending (I have seen it today in TSA's speedrun) is as bit as Zelda and Link. But he's less than half Link's height. That's not normal for a human.

Yes it is. Midgets and old men are typically around that height. Not to mention that the man has Hylian ears. If he was a Minish, he'd have white fur and mouse ears and a black nose and such.

Using your logic the Gods of TWW are evil, because Link has to fight that great machine called Gohdan. It's just a proof for him. The same for Dark Link.

She wasn't saying the old man was evil idiot. She was saying he was the King's Guardian, since the King elaborated a whole bunch of Guardians for his trial for a chosen one to win the Triforce of Courage. I really doubt he got a Minish to help him, since Minish gain their power/lifeforce from cheering up and keeping humans happy. It can't do that in isolation in a monster-infested castle.

References to Link's Wisdom:

OoT, LA, OoX, LoZ

References to Link's Power:

LA, OoX, LoZ

If we don't count the one to Link's wisdom in OoT (just once, by the Deku Tree who says he needs his courage and wisdom), in all the others, Link has an actual relation with that piece of the Triforce.

It doesn't mean it's referring to the Triforce pieces. They say something to the lines of "You've proven your Power, Wisdom, and Courage." I really doubt they mean "You prove you have the Triforce of Courage etc."

[Arturo]

As I told Jumbie, I lost four family members this week. Fuck off.

I am really sorry. I didn't want to be offensive. I forgot.

Play the game.

I have played the game, but I need to replay it (if you read my lost post, you will remember that I was incorrect about the Minish speaking the same). And I was speaking about the hero of men. That's what we know about him:

A long, long time ago...

when the world was on the verge of being swallowed by shadow...

The tiny Picori appeared from the sky, brining the hero of men a sword and a
golden light.

With wisdom and courage, the hero drove out the darkness.

When peace had been restored, the people enshrined that blade with care.

And the force of the golden light, embodied in Hyrule's princess, shone forth
upon the lands.

Golden Light+Force=Light Force

The essence of the Triforce is a sentient being imbued with the Triforce itself. It's the voice that instructs the finder to make a wish and all that jazz. Seperating the very essence of the Triforce from the Triforce is needlessly complicating things to the point of distorting facts.

I am not separating them. When I said "very essence of the Triforce" I wasn't talking about the "Essence of the Triforce" that is nothing more than a mistranslation, since in Japanese it said "spirit of the Triforce". I will explai what I mean more clearly. The Triforce has been proved in TWW to be a solid object. Well, I see the Light Force as the Triforce in a liquid state (it's fanficcish, buyt it works well with what we know about the Light Force). Without parts, like the Triforce, it possesses an unlimited power, and unlike the Triforce (like in TWW) it cannot be extracted from the holder, but slowly drained.

If you're gonna say that, the Force Gems are Triforce pieces too.

Force Gems don't possess an unlimited power, as the Triforce. The Light Force, yes.

The Minish Cap is supposed to be able to grant any wish. That's infinite power to me. Anyway, they created the Four Sword, the Four Elements, the Minish Cap, the Force Gems, etc. Everything they've ever brought to Hyrule was said to be created by them. Why would the Light Force be the one solitary gift to not fit the pattern? As for why the Minish World and the Sacred Realm not being the same, Elzo said that the only entrance to the Minish World only opened every 100 years. The Sacred Realm has many, many entrances that remain open at all times, and the Sacred Realm is also empty save the Triforce and the Temple of Light.

The Minish Cap can grant wishes, but not to an unlimited extent. Vaati already had the cap, then why would he want the Light Force? The answer is that light force possesses an unlimited strength, while the Minish Cap doesn't.

Why would the Light Force be diffrent? Because it has an unlimited power, unlike the other gifts.

In OoT there was just an entrance to the Sacred Realm, the Temple of Time, not millions of it. The other entrances in the temples of Hyrule are just exits to it, not true entrances ("His evil power radiated from the temples of Hyrule" and "The Temple of Time is the entrance through which you can enter the Sacred Realm from our world"). We don't know what was in the Sacred Realm. That it was empty is just an assumption. But we know that in OoT it's not empty ("The Temple of Light, situated in the very center of the Sacred Realm, is the last stronghold against Ganondorf's evil forces") until the end of the game, where it's called "void".. About the entrance... its rules can change, it's not so difficult.

The Minish weren't even invented then. How in god's name can you say he's a Minish without changing the facts? As for being too small to be a human, he's a midget. There. Problem solved. And if he was a Minish, he'd have white fur and mouse ears. He does not.

They were not invented by then, but Nintendo intended them to exist through all Hylian History, since they are the ones who hide Rupees under the rocks, grass and all that stuff. And there are rupees in the grass of LoZ, so Minish exist by then.

And those details are minor. His height is more important. And there are no midgets in Hyrule. This person has been keeping the ToC since the times of that legendary King and humans don't have such long life-spans.

Yea, but he didn't keep it. All of the Links have proved their Courage, Wisdom, and Power in every adventure. It's kind've what makes him the hero, and it's a running theme in the series.

No it isn't. I just included the games in which his Wisdom and Power are mentioned. And they are few of them.

It's not stupider than "Minish World"

It's a way of contrast it with the human world.

That only works if you put TMC before OOT in the timeline. About half of the community doesn't

Of course, but Fyxe implied in her question the assumption of TMC>OoT. She said:" And if the Minish bring the Triforce from the Sacred Realm to Hyrule, doesn't that mess up the whole... Ganon finding it thing?". In the question it was implied.

She wasn't saying the old man was evil idiot. She was saying he was the King's Guardian, since the King elaborated a whole bunch of Guardians for his trial for a chosen one to win the Triforce of Courage. I really doubt he got a Minish to help him, since Minish gain their power/lifeforce from cheering up and keeping humans happy. It can't do that in isolation in a monster-infested castle.

He's protecting the ToC from evils. Is that not important enough? And none of the King's Guardians are Hylians, but monsters and Iron Knuckles (that were humans, but don't seem to be anymore). Because humans don't live that much.

[MikePetersSucks]

I am not separating them. When I said "very essence of the Triforce" I wasn't talking about the "Essence of the Triforce" that is nothing more than a mistranslation, since in Japanese it said "spirit of the Triforce". I will explai what I mean more clearly. The Triforce has been proved in TWW to be a solid object. Well, I see the Light Force as the Triforce in a liquid state (it's fanficcish, buyt it works well with what we know about the Light Force). Without parts, like the Triforce, it possesses an unlimited power, and unlike the Triforce (like in TWW) it cannot be extracted from the holder, but slowly drained.

That's the kind of arguement that implies that you don't know what you're babbling about. If you have to make up rules for how the Triforce works to make your theory work, chances are it's totally wrong. Aside from the huge possibility of the Goddesses not allowing the Triforce to do something like that since without a solid form and thus pieces their preliminary trial of having a balanced heart seemed to be shot all up to hell. And for the record, it's not a mistranslation. "Essence" and "Spirit" are represented by the same kanji. Both could've applied.

In OoT there was just an entrance to the Sacred Realm, the Temple of Time, not millions of it. The other entrances in the temples of Hyrule are just exits to it, not true entrances ("His evil power radiated from the temples of Hyrule" and "The Temple of Time is the entrance through which you can enter the Sacred Realm from our world"). We don't know what was in the Sacred Realm. That it was empty is just an assumption. But we know that in OoT it's not empty ("The Temple of Light, situated in the very center of the Sacred Realm, is the last stronghold against Ganondorf's evil forces") until the end of the game, where it's called "void".. About the entrance... its rules can change, it's not so difficult.

When I was talking about multiple entrances, I was referring to the Gates in LTTP, which were said by Sarashashala (or whatever is name is, bleh.) To have been there for all time and whatnot.

They were not invented by then, but Nintendo intended them to exist through all Hylian History, since they are the ones who hide Rupees under the rocks, grass and all that stuff. And there are rupees in the grass of LoZ, so Minish exist by then.

And those details are minor. His height is more important. And there are no midgets in Hyrule. This person has been keeping the ToC since the times of that legendary King and humans don't have such long life-spans.

No, they just had a bunch of rupees lying around as a gaming device and over 16 years later they go "Heyyyyy...... let's use this new race to describe how the rupees came out. liek lol." I seriously doubt they were thinking "Hey, in 16 years let's make a game describing where the rupees came from. har har har."

As for the height, you cannot say there are no midgets in Hyrule without seeing every single individual Hylian ever born. And, for the record, there is a midget in FSA and LTTP. As for lifespan, that could be the same magic that allowed Rauru to live for centuries. Or maybe the elaborate spell the King cast (probably via the Triforce) made that last hylian guardian immortal. Hell, there's a possibility that the guy might even be a ghost or something, who knows?

No it isn't. I just included the games in which his Wisdom and Power are mentioned. And they are few of them.

It's not said in every adventure, but he is proving his Wisdom by solving puzzles and stuff, his Power by beating Ganon and his minions, and his Courage by enduring the whole adventure. That's what it means in context for both Link and the Player.

Because humans don't live that much.

Neither do Minish.

[Jumbie]

Now that Arturo (and not myself) pointed out another bunch of similarities of Light Force and Triforce, I'm once again tending to think they are meant to be the same thing... But, I have no set-in-stone opinion on it anymore.

When I was talking about multiple entrances, I was referring to the Gates in LTTP, which were said by Sarashashala (or whatever is name is, bleh.) To have been there for all time and whatnot.

The 9+ gates in ALttP were not yet existent in OoT. It's very likely that they are the results of Ganon's trying to break the Sages' Seal, but all he achieved was to create entrances to the Dark World from Hyrule's side, not the other way.
Thus, it's possible that the only 'natural' entrance to the Sacred Realm in TMC was through the 100-year-door in Hyrule Castle, and later they built the Temple of Time over that single entrance.

No, they just had a bunch of rupees lying around as a gaming device and over 16 years later they go "Heyyyyy...... let's use this new race to describe how the rupees came out. liek lol." I seriously doubt they were thinking "Hey, in 16 years let's make a game describing where the rupees came from. har har har."

You shouldnt't argue about in which direction references between the games were worked out - they can be either implications left to explain in future games, or future games giving an explanation for minor things that existed in earlier games.
In this case, Arturo wanted to say that the rupees' thing was never thought about until TMC was made, the same goes for the old man in AoL.

And, for the record, there is a midget in FSA and LTTP.

I don't remember those right now, but you may well be right. Could you describe whom you mean?

As for lifespan, that could be the same magic that allowed Rauru to live for centuries. Or maybe the elaborate spell the King cast (probably via the Triforce) made that last hylian guardian immortal. Hell, there's a possibility that the guy might even be a ghost or something, who knows?

Ezlo has lived for centuries. TMC implies at one point that he was around by the time the 100-year-door last opened. Also, Ezlo (whom I think to be that AoL geezer) is different from the other Minish in that he's one of the few that can magically grow to a size which is (almost) that of a human. His growing ability is the same one that Vaati used by donning the Mage's Cap made by Ezlo.

More things about AoL: In the Great Temple you have to fight with bird-knights, who could easily be equated with members of the Rito tribe, if one felt like it. So, the King could have engaged Minish, Rito and more to guard the Great Temple.
As for the guardians of the other (freely accessible) temples, I highly doubt they are the King's servants. Volvagia, Wizzrobes, Ironknuckles, Horseman... All of these looks very much like the remaining minions of dead Ganon trying to invade the temples to place the crystals (which they don't know are kept in the North Castle). Yes, the scroll says the King sent out his own guardians. But hey, they might have been wiped out by Ganon's monsters!

Moreover, you spoke of mouse ears, black noses and hairy body... But actually, no Minish has got those features. Look at official artwork. Their noses have normal skin colour, their ears are exactly like Hylians', and their hair grows at the places usual for humans.

As for the Hero being associated with Wisdom and Courage: TMC's intro doesn't associate him with Power, which is telling quite a lot. Power has often been in possession of an evil someone, so the Hero of Men didn't have it.

[Fyxe]

I'm not gonna get into Jumbie's post, but I find the concept that Hyrule wasn't a country until recently in OoT's history interesting. Are we ever told that Hyrule wasn't a country, that the royal family didn't exist? No, we're simply told that it wasn't particularly 'unified' and it had a war or two.

That doesn't mean it never existed as a country during that time, or that it wasn't unified before the period of strife. Games CAN exist before OoT in a unified Hyrule. I'm not sure whether they *should*, but I see no really solid reason why they can not.

I don't see any need to put TMC before OoT though, in my opinion. I see it being much closer to the other Four Sword games. I like to think that the Four Sword games exist near TWW as well, but that's just an idea and I haven't thought it through. I also think they exist near ALttP, so... Um, yes, difficult.

I should note, however, that the Palace of Winds exists (in slightly varying forms) in TMC, FSA and Four Swords.

Edited by Fyxe, 23 July 2006 - 10:05 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The 9+ gates in ALttP were not yet existent in OoT. It's very likely that they are the results of Ganon's trying to break the Sages' Seal, but all he achieved was to create entrances to the Dark World from Hyrule's side, not the other way.
Thus, it's possible that the only 'natural' entrance to the Sacred Realm in TMC was through the 100-year-door in Hyrule Castle, and later they built the Temple of Time over that single entrance.

Nothing ever explains where the portals come from, but a few people in LTTP imply that their creation was naturally induced.

You shouldnt't argue about in which direction references between the games were worked out - they can be either implications left to explain in future games, or future games giving an explanation for minor things that existed in earlier games.
In this case, Arturo wanted to say that the rupees' thing was never thought about until TMC was made, the same goes for the old man in AoL.

Remember that these are the people who put coins in ? Blocks. I REALLY doubt they considered it to be a future plot point when they were making the very first Zelda, when they didn't even plan AOL then until they saw how much of a profit they made.

I don't remember those right now, but you may well be right. Could you describe whom you mean?

Several nameless NPC's with reused sprites and whatnot, but here's an example no one can argue with. Tingle is even shorter than Child Link. Thus, Tingle, who is Hylian, is a midget. Thus, there ARE Midget Hylians. And that's not even addressing that people grow shorter with age and that AOL Link a pretty tall individual. The AOL man was also almost exactly Impa's height, and she was definately not a Minish.