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Timeline placement of TMC


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#241 Jumbie

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Posted 07 August 2006 - 02:24 PM

I do accept it, but I'm not the one going on about it. I was busy talking about the monsters and dungeons and stuff (which is much more interesting, if you ask me) until SOAP brought the geography thing back and appeared to claim it was as important as the storyline, which just isn't true.


Well, I'm interested in everything about Zelda, be it monsters or geography. In my book, that's rather a good thing than a bad.
Um, that's not correct about SOAP. He really didn't give it the same importance as storyline, really not. In fact, I've never seen a single person who did!

Firstly, the Sanctuary is built into the mountain, second, it's on standard ground level, unlike Kakariko in OoT, and thirdly, there is not nearly enough room for a whole village next to the graveyard, even one as small as the one in OoT.


..And still it can be made work. Look here:
Attached File  hyrule.png   129.39K   37 downloads

(a) Fire Temple entrance
(b) Goron City entrance
(c) Dodongo's Cavern entrance
(d) Temple of Time
(e) Castle Town walls
(f) Kakariko Village
(g) Dampé's hut
(h) Shadow Temple entrance

Edited by Jumbie, 07 August 2006 - 02:25 PM.


#242 Arturo

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 01:45 PM

Attached File  hyrule.png   129.39K   37 downloads

(a) Fire Temple entrance
(b) Goron City entrance
(c) Dodongo's Cavern entrance
(d) Temple of Time
(e) Castle Town walls
(f) Kakariko Village
(g) Dampé's hut
(h) Shadow Temple entrance


It's a really good way of fitting OoT Geo with ALttP's. I really like it... There is only one thing I can complain about is your placing of Hyrule Town... I prefer having it on Lost Woods, so that the Master Sword might be in its correct place. Just a little question, since I have been away for a time. What does all this amazing stuff have to do with TMC placement? We all know it's before OoT :P but does placing Fire Temple on the ALttP map help to prove (or disprove) TMC being before OOT? I think you (not we, becasue I am almost incommunicated) should go back to topic. Just a suggestion, so don't yell at me. :)

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 04:03 PM

It's a really good way of fitting OoT Geo with ALttP's. I really like it... There is only one thing I can complain about is your placing of Hyrule Town... I prefer having it on Lost Woods, so that the Master Sword might be in its correct place. Just a little question, since I have been away for a time. What does all this amazing stuff have to do with TMC placement? We all know it's before OoT :P but does placing Fire Temple on the ALttP map help to prove (or disprove) TMC being before OOT? I think you (not we, becasue I am almost incommunicated) should go back to topic. Just a suggestion, so don't yell at me. :)

That is irrelevant to showing the similarities between ALttP and OoT Hyrule because they're not the same Hyrule. That's also the map from OoT 2D, which is just an edited version of ALttP's map. Very lazy, I tell you. If you're going to make a game, make it from scratch. Anyways, I've got school starting up next Wednesday, so I'll only be able to get on during the weekends. I'll keep doing studies on TMC and ALttP's geographies in the meantime.

#244 Jumbie

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 05:20 PM

That is irrelevant to showing the similarities between ALttP and OoT Hyrule because they're not the same Hyrule.


Believe it or not, my whole point in doing this comparison is to prove that ALttP and OoT Hyrule ARE the same. <_<

That's also the map from OoT 2D, which is just an edited version of ALttP's map. Very lazy, I tell you. If you're going to make a game, make it from scratch.

No, that's certainly not from OoT 2D. You got punk'd. For a fact, I made all of that myself, and "lazy" isn't exactly the right word to describe it. I'd rather say, hours of work went into that.
But as for OoT 2D, if I actually was working on a version of it, I would indeed base it totally off of the ALttP map, to show how it can still feel familiar to OoT without having to change ALttP's wonderful world too gravely.

I'll keep doing studies on TMC and ALttP's geographies in the meantime.


Yes, please do that. Though I'm a little pissed off right now.

Edited by Jumbie, 10 August 2006 - 05:21 PM.


#245 Fyxe

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 05:59 PM

But as for OoT 2D, if I actually was working on a version of it, I would indeed base it totally off of the ALttP map, to show how it can still feel familiar to OoT without having to change ALttP's wonderful world too gravely.


A 2D version of OoT should not just be a modified ALttP. Otherwise we might as well play ALttP, or OoT.

Hyrule in OoT is based around one big 'hub', everything else branching off it. The map in ALttP is not like this. It is not nearly so linear. In OoT, every area has pretty much one entrance due to how much Hyrule is surrounded by mountains. In ALttP, many areas have multiple ways of entering.

#246 Jumbie

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 06:43 PM

A 2D version of OoT should not just be a modified ALttP. Otherwise we might as well play ALttP, or OoT.

Hyrule in OoT is based around one big 'hub', everything else branching off it. The map in ALttP is not like this. It is not nearly so linear. In OoT, every area has pretty much one entrance due to how much Hyrule is surrounded by mountains. In ALttP, many areas have multiple ways of entering.


Correct, and that's exactly why an OoT 2D would not be exactly like ALttP. For to make ALttP's map look like OoT's, you'd have to replace Hyrule Castle with the fields, to drastically decrease the accessible areas, to cram a couple of houses into a narrow corner, and then of course design the dungeons from scratch. This is where the main difference would lie, in the meat of a game, which is why it wouldn't resemble ALttP so much.

On the contrary, I think it wouldn't be worth to play an OoT 2D with a custom-made map - we already had an OoT with original maps, so why just the same in 2D?!

#247 SOAP

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 08:06 PM

I wouldn't play OoT 2D with just ALttP graphics. But I'd like to see edited ALttP maps of OoT Hyrule just to prove the simmilarities.

I believe they're all the same Hyrule with just stuff rearranged by the creators for variety's sake. Yet there's always enough traceable simmilarities to give a sense of familarity. Personally, having certian landmarks like Spectacle Rock and such in nearly every game gives me a sense returning "home" to the Hyrule I know and love. That's why I hada hard time adjusting to TMC. It didn't "feel" like Hyrule. The Castor Wilds, Veil Falls, and Mt Crenel seemed totally alien to me. It felt like Zelda for sure, but not Hyrule. If it wasn't for Hyrule Castle I'd be none the wiser.

#248 Fyxe

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 08:57 PM

Castor Wilds was nifty as hell though. I actually prefer it when they use new locations and layouts, personally. The Oracle games had some particularly interesting ones.

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 09:15 PM

Believe it or not, my whole point in doing this comparison is to prove that ALttP and OoT Hyrule ARE the same. <_<

Well, they aren't. In a single timeline, that is. I guess you can say they're the same in a split timeline, but I don't agree with it.

No, that's certainly not from OoT 2D. You got punk'd. For a fact, I made all of that myself, and "lazy" isn't exactly the right word to describe it. I'd rather say, hours of work went into that.
But as for OoT 2D, if I actually was working on a version of it, I would indeed base it totally off of the ALttP map, to show how it can still feel familiar to OoT without having to change ALttP's wonderful world too gravely.

Oh, well... I didn't really know. Well, it was a fairly good job. However, you can just look at the actual maps of the games to compare things. Kakariko Village is farther east in OoT, which is one of several main differences between the two Hyrules. Now that I think about it, both of them basically have the same places. They're just a bit switched up...

Yes, please do that. Though I'm a little pissed off right now.

Sorry to get you angry. Well, I'm tired. So... :deadlink: zzz

Edited by Master of ALttP, 10 August 2006 - 09:15 PM.


#250 SOAP

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 09:54 AM

Castor Wilds was nifty as hell though. I actually prefer it when they use new locations and layouts, personally. The Oracle games had some particularly interesting ones.


I never said I didn't like them. In fact, I found Castor Wilds to be pretty innovative. It just didn't feel like the Hyrule. Oracles had some cool locales too but those took place in distant lands so of course those places would look different.

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 01:56 PM

Well, I've finally found a good map of TMC Hyrule. You can find a link to it here. Looking at it, I see a few ways that I could lay it over ALttP's Hyrule map, but I think I'll compare with with the map that we see in FSA. I'll do a bit of analyzing for an hour or so, and then I'll post what I've found. Somebody else can compare the map to OoT's Hyrule, because I'm not going to even bother with doing that.

#252 Jumbie

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 08:35 PM

Well, I've finally found a good map of TMC Hyrule.


Hey, that map is really good! I haven't seen this particular arrangement before, with the map screen background and all.

I think I'll compare with with the map that we see in FSA.


Good idea! The FSA map has hardly ever been used in map comparisons, so it's about time ;)

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 01:55 PM

Hey, that map is really good! I haven't seen this particular arrangement before, with the map screen background and all.

Thanks. I was going to do something similar to that, but I see that it's already been done now.

Good idea! The FSA map has hardly ever been used in map comparisons, so it's about time ;)

Well, courtesy of the folks over at G'FAQs, I present a comparison of Hyrule as seen in OoT and TMC. You can find the images here. As you can see, there are several similarities between the two Hyrules. I won't get into those right now, because I don't want to.

Well, since I've really got nothing else to do, I'll put up those map comparisons. I'll edit this post a little later to include my images and results.

#254 Fyxe

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 05:07 PM

That's a map comparison? It's just the two maps put side by side. How... Unstunning. Crap quality too. Sod the little children of GameFAQs, I say.

I don't see many noteworthy comparisons, either.

#255 Jumbie

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 06:45 PM

Well, courtesy of the folks over at G'FAQs, I present a comparison of Hyrule as seen in OoT and TMC.
As you can see, there are several similarities between the two Hyrules. I won't get into those right now, because I don't want to.


Hmm, may it be that you don't want to because in your timeline TMC takes place long after OoT in a New Hyrule? ;)

About the comparison, yes I see which similarities its makers intended to show, but it's totally different from the places that I personally would've matched up between OoT and TMC.
The Minish Woods are put into the same place as OoT's Kokiri Forest, the Castles are in the same place... But nothing of that I would consider necessary for the game's continuity. Castles are being rebuilt all the time in Zelda, and woods are all over the place too.

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 09:21 AM

Hmm, may it be that you don't want to because in your timeline TMC takes place long after OoT in a New Hyrule? ;)

About the comparison, yes I see which similarities its makers intended to show, but it's totally different from the places that I personally would've matched up between OoT and TMC.
The Minish Woods are put into the same place as OoT's Kokiri Forest, the Castles are in the same place... But nothing of that I would consider necessary for the game's continuity. Castles are being rebuilt all the time in Zelda, and woods are all over the place too.

Precisely. In fact, we should be seeing many castle-like structures in Twilight Princess all over Hyrule. It's nothing really big. And just because those two maps have their similarities, I am not going to be placing TMC before OoT any time soon.

I'm currently making copies of something, but I'll get to that TMC/FSA map comparison later on.

#257 Jumbie

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 07:19 PM

In fact, we should be seeing many castle-like structures in Twilight Princess all over Hyrule.


How do you mean, do you expect that based on screenshots, or do you just hope for it?

And just because those two maps have their similarities, I am not going to be placing TMC before OoT any time soon.


No, of course not, we won't actually base our timeline theories on geography.
But I think, to get an unbiased view you shouldn't refrain from comparing things between which you can't see a connection..

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 09:22 PM

How do you mean, do you expect that based on screenshots, or do you just hope for it?

Mostly hope, but also based on screenshots and trailers. I've seen several that I am pretty sure are different, so it looks like this game will have an Old England feeling to it.

No, of course not, we won't actually base our timeline theories on geography.

I don't do that either. I just use it as supporting evidence, if I am able to.

But I think, to get an unbiased view you shouldn't refrain from comparing things between which you can't see a connection..

...Huh? I don't understand that very well.

:victory: This is for my victory over at the GameFAQs forums. I have convinced the people of GameFAQs, by using artwork, that Four Swords Adventures is a direct sequel to Four Swords. If you look at Four Swords artwork, you'll see that the Links look rather young and childish. But, if you then look at some Four Swords Adventures artwork, you'll see that they're far more mature. You can also notice a bit of a height difference between them, if I remember correctly. Obviously, these Links get their hardened appearance from their previous quests in Four Swords. You can disagree all you'd like, I don't really mind. But just take a look at the artwork the way I have before you start saying anything.

#259 spunky-monkey

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 09:48 AM

:victory: This is for my victory over at the GameFAQs forums. I have convinced the people of GameFAQs, by using artwork, that Four Swords Adventures is a direct sequel to Four Swords.

Like Fyxe said, the people of GameFAQs are all idiots. Link's appearance is strictly a game design issue, depending on whether the developers want Link to look more, or less mature to the audience they're selling it to. You cannot draw up a connection between games using only artwork because art styles vary and therefore have nothing to do with the continuity of the Zelda series (I feel like I've already said this a million times before).

Edited by Ricky, 14 August 2006 - 09:49 AM.


#260 Arturo

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 01:37 PM

:victory: This is for my victory over at the GameFAQs forums. I have convinced the people of GameFAQs, by using artwork, that Four Swords Adventures is a direct sequel to Four Swords. If you look at Four Swords artwork, you'll see that the Links look rather young and childish. But, if you then look at some Four Swords Adventures artwork, you'll see that they're far more mature. You can also notice a bit of a height difference between them, if I remember correctly. Obviously, these Links get their hardened appearance from their previous quests in Four Swords. You can disagree all you'd like, I don't really mind. But just take a look at the artwork the way I have before you start saying anything.



You cannot base a theory on artwork. But it's evident FS>FSA. It's stated both on the manual and the game!!!!!!

P.S. Fyxe, why is (Krystal?) licking a tree? :ph34r:

#261 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 02:04 PM

Wow, you convinced GameFAQ to believe your theory. That's like saying you convinced six year olds that Santa gives them presents.

#262 Jumbie

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 03:07 PM

Whatever, such big stretches over artwork don't have to be made to prove FS happening directly before FSA. Disagreeing with FS>FSA would be like disagreeing with OoT>MM - insane.
Firstly, FSA's manual gives a summary of FS' backstory and of FS' main plot, speaking of a long time between them, and then ends questioning the peace, obviously directly interluding to FSA.
In the game, when Link is about to draw the Four Sword, it says something like "You know what happens when you draw the blade, Vaati will be free again". So how would Link know this if he hadn't experienced FS before.
Along the game, the maidens speak about Vaati's Palace of Winds, saying when he last attacked Hyrule he built a palace in the sky.
There is no reason why FS and FSA should be separated by some centuries. It's just like LoZ+AoL or OoT's both halves.

...Huh? I don't understand that very well.

I meant, even though you assume TMC's Hyrule is a completely different landmass than OoT's, you should not shy away from comparing them, since you may (or rather, you're bound to) notice something that proves you wrong.

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 05:29 PM

Well, I did have some other evidence for that as well. You see, whenever a game refers back to another game, the hero from the last name is never called Link. However, in FSA, we are told that the hero in FS was named Link, so therefore, they must be the same. Or, at least, the name is still known over a few centuries. But, I can disprove that last statement of mine about remembering the name over a few centuries because in TWW, we are only told that the Hero's name was the Hero of Time. Since his name wasn't remembered over a few centuries, then it seems that no hero's name can be remembered in Hyrule for very long periods of time.

#264 Mad Scrub

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 07:44 PM

P.S. Fyxe, why is (Krystal?) licking a tree? :ph34r:

She's licking wood. It's suggestive. Enough said :D.

#265 Fyxe

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:43 PM

She's licking wood. It's suggestive. Enough said :D.


Actually it's a bedcover but the whole picture's background is a vague browny kinda colour so the colour of what she's placing her tongue upon isn't actually shown, just the shape of it is.

But I like your way better.

That pic is actually one of the least suggestive I coulda chosen.

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 09:44 PM

Actually it's a bedcover but the whole picture's background is a vague browny kinda colour so the colour of what she's placing her tongue upon isn't actually shown, just the shape of it is.

But I like your way better.

That pic is actually one of the least suggestive I coulda chosen.

I can remember a few off the top of my head that are about thirty times more suggestive than that one. ...Yes, I'm messed up. Well, I see myself as being messed up, but I could be worse. I could belong to six Zelda forums and obsessively discuss the Zelda timeline, which is relatively unimportant to the rest of the world. Oh, wait a minute...

#267 LionHarted

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 10:14 PM

You cannot base a theory on artwork.

Yes, you can.

The Octoroks in TMC, FS, FSA, ALttP, LA, OoX, etc. don't look ANYTHING like those in OoT, MM, and TWW. PH, on the other hand, seems to feature... the ones from TMC-OoX? I sense a progression.

#268 Hero of Slime

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 10:21 PM

One can base theories on Artwork, but that does not mean that one should.

#269 LionHarted

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 10:28 PM

One can base theories on Artwork, but that does not mean that one should.

One can ignore obvious differences in enemy appearance and/or behaviour, but that certainly does not mean that one should. In fact, when analyzing connections between various volumes of a videogame series, it's one of the most reliable methods of forming theories, since artwork cannot be misinterpreted as easily as text.

Edited by LionHarted, 14 August 2006 - 10:29 PM.


#270 Jumbie

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 09:11 PM

In fact, when analyzing connections between various volumes of a videogame series, it's one of the most reliable methods of forming theories, since artwork cannot be misinterpreted as easily as text.


Apparently yes, it can be misinterpreted by people like you :( Not to mention that you also misinterpret the texts, as you've already shown in a very peculiar way regarding the Sages' Seal.

Edited by Jumbie, 15 August 2006 - 09:12 PM.





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