269 replies to this topic

[Jumbie]

Well, I was actually thinking about starting a thread about the Four Swords games (with that also TMC), but not in the way you did it... I have to admit, your transliteration work is really to appreciate!
I've also been actively transcribing Hylian into Romaji, but haven't got around to TMC yet. And alas, I don't speak Japanese either.

"Hairaru no rekishi" means "History of Hyrule", IIRC from ALttP's manual translation (but without any guarantee!), which would imply that there has already been some history before TMC. However, whether this refers to TMC's backstory only, or also to games like OoT happening before it, we cannot conclude from that.

And, be careful with the assumption that the Hylian scripts were able to determine the chronological placement of the games they appear in. I'm not sure how much the Hylian scripts fall under the category of artwork, which is not to be taken as evidence.

[Hylian]

I really don't know what to say except: find a Japanese guy and figure it out.

[Fyxe]

You really thing the type of Hylian used proves where the games go? It wasn't until TWW that the designers actually gave Hylian individual letters and made it possible to translate Hylian into Japanese. Therefore, in every game following TWW, they are likely to use this form of Hylian when they need to.

Before that, Hylian was just occasional randomly designed lettering that meant nothing.

This is a game design issue, not a timeline issue.

Edited by Fyxe, 12 July 2006 - 12:27 PM.

[SOAP]

Fyxe is right. The style of writing may mean little. As a side note, I never understood why everything is written in that style when no one seems to understand it spoken to them. It's the same font in the friggin dialogue! I know it's supposed to be fun way to uncover secrets, but it'd make more sense on more ancint objects like the headstone looking thing in Windfall, than on everday objects like a chalkboard which signift that the written alphabet is still being taught to youth of that time. But I'm ranting again...

I think the books however may shed some light on TMC's placement. Though having books that say the 'History of Hyrule" wouldn't mean anything. TMC can still be first in the timeline and still refer to loads of stuff that happened before it. Are we to assume nothing happened before TMC other than the Hero of Man legend and the creation of Hyrule? If any of the titles allude to another game that'd be another story. I'm waiting for one that says Sleeping Princess or some such.

[Hana-Nezumi]

Oooo this looks fun so I'm going to try to translate this the best I can.

Bottom Row
Book 1: Customs(?) of Festival
Book 2: Cherry Blossom Picture Book
Book 4: Nut/Fruit/Berry of FUWOGI (no idea)
Book 6: Washtub and Hose 1
Book 7: Washtub and Hose 2
Book 8: Nut/Fruit/Berry of FUWOGI (again, I have no idea what fuwogi means)
Book 11: Song of Festival

Middle Row
Book 3: Mushroom Picture Book
Book 5: World/Society of HOWO(Don't know what that is either) 1
Book 6: World/Society of HOWO 2

Top Row
Book 3: Philosophy 1
Book 4: Philosophy 2
Book 5: Philosophy 3
Book 6: Philosophy 4
Book 7: History of Hyrule
Book 8: Ancient Civilization 1
Book 9: Ancient Civilization 2

Edited by enchantedtoast, 12 July 2006 - 01:19 PM.

[Jumbie]

Great work, enchantedtoast! It's so good to have Japanese speaking people around!

Actually, I've found out why you weren't able to translate the words "howo" and "fuwogi" - most likely they aren't Japanese words at all. Both have the syllable "wo" in them, so I looked up the Hylian symbol for "wo", and in fact, it looks almost the same as the Hylian symbol for "shi". Obviously, Master of ALttP made a little mistake in transcribing. If the unknown words read "hoshi" and "fushigi", it makes a lot more sense.

Erm, isn't "Fushigi no Ki no Mi" (= Seed of the Mysterious Tree) the Japanese title of one of the Oracle games?

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Master of ALttP: Therefore, things in OoT and MM written in these styles could actually have some meaning to them. I will transliterate more, and put it up here.

Yeah Master of ALttP, give us more! Now, that I call useful work

Even though the Hylian used in OoT+MM is apparently also transliterable to Japanese, I'm not sure if the words you'll get actually make any sense at all, or are just gibberish. One thing is certain, though: the symbols on a bottle of LonLon milk read exactly like that, "RonRon Miruku".

[SOAP]

So TMC is after OoX. Wouldn't suprise me with the appareances of the three Oracles. They're probably decendants of the ones in Oracles.

[MikePetersSucks]

I put TMC somewhere in the middle. As for the Oracles, well, one of them can time travel, so that really doesn't mean all that much.

[Hana-Nezumi]

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Great work, enchantedtoast! It's so good to have Japanese speaking people around!

Heh, I don't really speak Japanese. I have a general understanding of the language and I've picked up quite a few words, but it's not like I could actually have a conversation with a Japanese person. But on the internet I can find practically any word I don't know by looking it up using various programs and websites.

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Actually, I've found out why you weren't able to translate the words "howo" and "fuwogi" - most likely they aren't Japanese words at all. Both have the syllable "wo" in them, so I looked up the Hylian symbol for "wo", and in fact, it looks almost the same as the Hylian symbol for "shi". Obviously, Master of ALttP made a little mistake in transcribing. If the unknown words read "hoshi" and "fushigi", it makes a lot more sense.

Now that makes more sense. So it would be like "World of Star".

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Erm, isn't "Fushigi no Ki no Mi" (= Seed of the Mysterious Tree) the Japanese title of one of the Oracle games?

Yes, it is the name of the Oracle Series... This is interesting.

[HeroOfTime5]

This makes more sense to place them after TWW>>>PH. But the Light force and Minish ordeal always puzzle me of why they placed them there.

[SOAP]

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 12 2006, 07:23 PM, said:

I put TMC somewhere in the middle. As for the Oracles, well, one of them can time travel, so that really doesn't mean all that much.

Except they're pretty well known in TMC and at least one of them has a past history, infact a recorded linage! If it was just Nayru and the girls time travelling just for kicks, there'd be no reason to mention that she is from long line of priestesses. I think their decendants of the ones in Oracles.

[HeroOfTime5]

SOAP, on Jul 12 2006, 02:13 PM, said:

Except they're pretty well known in TMC and at least one of them has a past history, infact a recorded linage! If it was just Nayru and the girls time travelling just for kicks, there'd be no reason to mention that she is from long line of priestesses. I think their decendants of the ones in Oracles.

They are either descendents or they are an easter egg, since Capcom made that TMC also.

[Jumbie]

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They are either descendents or they are an easter egg, since Capcom made that TMC also.

Well, TMC is as valid a Zelda game as any other, thus it might be time to realize that Capcom can actually produce canon on their own. This text on the book's spine might have been an easter egg if the three Oracles hadn't personally appeared in the game. But since they do, along with the book title this really should make us rethink the placement of TMC.
Anyone got a good theory how TMC could fit after Oracles but before FS+FSA? Oh, and consider that the story of Sleeping Zelda might occur somewhere along that time, too.

Edited by Jumbie, 12 July 2006 - 06:26 PM.

[mohammedali]

IIRC, there was someone who translated a few of the books from TMC a while back. The one that was most interesting was a book with "Triuph-Forks" in the title, suggesting TMC is more likely to be after WW. I'll have a little search for that. Good work so far guys. Also, you may want to ask someone like MK. for some of the translations. He's a legend when it comes to that. Keep up the effort guys

Mohammed Ali

[Showsni]

I'm pretty sure we've had this thread before...
(Goes and looks)

Hmm. Can't find it. I'm almsot certain I've read the Oracles connection, though...

According to one website I did find, "Washtub and Hose" in enchantedtoast's translation is "Triumph Forks," and "picture book" referring to (mushrooms and blossoms) means encyclopaedia. Oh, and they have "protecting the world" as 5 and 6 on the middle shelf.
source: http://chris-fritz.b...elda-games.html

[HeroOfTime5]

Master of ALttP, on Jul 12 2006, 06:18 PM, said:

Well, anyways, let us toast to toast! Random thought: Why's it called a toast? You're drinking something, not eating toast.

Back then when they had a toast, instead of knocking glasses of beverages together they shared a piece of toast.

anyways is there any other zelda games besides, MM, TWW, TMC, and ALttP that have some sort of a Hylian language?

[Jumbie]

Excellent find, Showsni!
The guy at the end of that link has actually proven that also the OoT+MM Hylian can be transliterated.

Regarding The Minish Cap though, I think this is the most important stuff we get from the books:

- "Festival Customs" => refers to the Picori Festival that has been held for at least 2 centuries
- "~japanese title of Oracles~" => implies that the Oracles games might happen before TMC
- "Triumph Forks" => implies that TWW might happen before TMC
- "Mushroom Encyclopedia" => might be referring to the Mario series (maybe?)
- "Protecting the World" => ???
- "History of Hyrule" => this could refer to just about everything
- "Ancient Civilization" => this could refer to just about everything

Now, we might start to reconsider all our timeline theories, or simply dismiss those book titles as nice cameos... I wonder what will happen

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anyways is there any other zelda games besides, MM, TWW, TMC, and ALttP that have some sort of a Hylian language?

Yes, FSA.

Edited by Jumbie, 12 July 2006 - 08:36 PM.

[Hana-Nezumi]

Ahh, so it's because "tarai to hōsu" sounds like "toraifōsu". This is translated in the English version of WW as "triumph forks" because that works better in English and they are both silly nonsense that sounds like "triforce".

And toast is fine. Toasty, enchanted, whatever. Just not E.T. x_x


The difference it makes if books 5 and 6 on the middle shelf are "protecting the world" or "world of star" is if they actually say "hoshin sekai"(the site's transliteration) or "hoshi no sekai"(Master of ALttP's transliteration).

[Doopliss]

Jumbie, on Jul 12 2006, 08:31 PM, said:

Now, we might start to reconsider all our timeline theories, or simply dismiss those book titles as nice cameos... I wonder what will happen

I'm a professional (what? do I really take this crap?) storyliner, I won't dismiss them for now.

So this means that the FS could take place after TWW, hence that they are placed after the Oracles and that and ALttP takes place after TWW since the FS was created in TMC! Omfg! That means that OoT, TWW, TMC, FS, FSA, ALttP, LoZ, AoL and probably LA take place in the same timeline!!!

This is one of the most amazing discoveries I have seen since I joined these forums.

Do you really wish to take those texts as canon? According to what I think, we should, but I'm not sure, this is too much...

Manifestaion pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 10. XXII

[mohammedali]

Doopliss, on Jul 13 2006, 04:38 AM, said:

I'm a professional (what? do I really take this crap?) storyliner, I won't dismiss them for now.

So this means that the FS could take place after TWW, hence that they are placed after the Oracles and that and ALttP takes place after TWW since the FS was created in TMC! Omfg! That means that OoT, TWW, TMC, FS, FSA, ALttP, LoZ, AoL and probably LA take place in the same timeline!!!

This is one of the most amazing discoveries I have seen since I joined these forums.

Do you really wish to take those texts as canon? According to what I think, we should, but I'm not sure, this is too much...

Manifestaion pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 10. XXII

Someone hose down Doopliss... He's over heating... *gets a hose*
Unfortunately this doesn't really tell us as much as we would like to think. Even if we take the titles to be part of the storyline and not throwaway easter eggs, we still need to see what they actually tell us. For example...
Triumph Forks was spoken about in WW. If there is a book about Triumph Forks in TMC, it could be the case that the word was invented some time before TMC (and is hence found in a book in TMC), and then reused in WW. i.e. Just because both games use the word Triump Fork, we still don't know which came first - the book in TMC or the quotes from the fishmen.
Personally, given that there are characters from both OoT and WW, I put TMC inbetween OoT and WW. It may be after such a long time, that the legend of the Triforce is forgotten, and is renamed Triump Forks in the books found in TMC. Then, after the flood, the name Triumph Forks could still prevail.
As for titles that link to the Oracle games, it still wouldn't imply that the Oracle games have happened, or are even in the same timeline (if talking about a split). The oracles would still exist even if Link hasn't encountered them yet. i.e. There is still an Oracle of Ages even if the game OoA hasn't taken place yet/isn't in the timeline at all.

I think the main point that this proves is that TMC comes after OoT, given that terms such as Triumph Forks and new Hylian language is being used. As for weither it's before, after or even in the same timeline as WW is still unknown as yet - though I would be inclined to say it seems more linked to WW Universe than MMU.

Mohammed Ali

Edited by mohammedali, 13 July 2006 - 10:55 AM.

[Doopliss]

mohammedali, on Jul 13 2006, 10:51 AM, said:

Someone hose down Doopliss... He's over heating... *gets a hose*

Thank you. I was really needing that.

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Unfortunately this doesn't really tell us as much as we would like to think. Even if we take the titles to be part of the storyline and not throwaway easter eggs, we still need to see what they actually tell us. For example...
Triumph Forks was spoken about in WW. If there is a book about Triumph Forks in TMC, it could be the case that the word was invented some time before TMC (and is hence found in a book in TMC), and then reused in WW. i.e. Just because both games use the word Triump Fork, we still don't know which came first - the book in TMC or the quotes from the fishmen.
Personally, given that there are characters from both OoT and WW, I put TMC inbetween OoT and WW. It may be after such a long time, that the legend of the Triforce is forgotten, and is renamed Triump Forks in the books found in TMC. Then, after the flood, the name Triumph Forks could still prevail.
As for titles that link to the Oracle games, it still wouldn't imply that the Oracle games have happened, or are even in the same timeline (if talking about a split). The oracles would still exist even if Link hasn't encountered them yet. i.e. There is still an Oracle of Ages even if the game OoA hasn't taken place yet/isn't in the timeline at all.

I think the main point that this proves is that TMC comes after OoT, given that terms such as Triumph Forks and new Hylian language is being used. As for weither it's before, after or even in the same timeline as WW is still unknown as yet - though I would be inclined to say it seems more linked to WW Universe than MMU.

Mohammed Ali

That's ok, but if TMC takes place after OoT, then ALttP must be after OoT and it must be in the same timeline because of the FS, doesn't it?

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 11. XXIV

Edited by Doopliss, 13 July 2006 - 12:54 PM.

[Arturo]

Though I consider the translation a good work, I don't consider them to prove anything. The Hylian writing is hardly a proof, because it has been evolving since ALttP, where it was a bunch of Egyptian hieroglyphs, OoT, lots of signs with sense used sometimes to compound messages and others randomly (Spirit Temple), and TWW-TMC-FSA where they are used to a larger extent and refinated. I am positive that if OoT was released for first time today, they would use the same writing as in TWW and TMC. Moreover, it seems it will be used in TP.

Edited by Arturo, 13 July 2006 - 02:06 PM.

[Doopliss]

I have the same opinion as you. I think that there are certain elements that are much more important than the characters used in writing, such as the Triforce location or the characters. But we aren't talking about the characters, we are discussing what is written. This is different, because the text could help us to place the games. However, the oracles text and the Triumph Forks don't tell use much, so I guess I got overexited this time.

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 11. XXV

[SOAP]

It's not so much the writing as it's what the writing reveals. Shigeru likes his fans to keep geussing about the timeline and to discuss this kind of stuff amongsts ourselves. Putting neat surprises like this for some of us to find and share with the rest of the community is just like him.

Personally I'm tempted to put TMC as TWW's split timeline counterpart. To me the simmilarities lead me to believe that it's it's the same era and some of the same people. Just on the other split of the timeline where Hyrule wasn't flooded and Ganondorf wasn't the main baddy. If that stuff wasn't the case in TWW, TWW would be just like TMC.

On a single timeline though, I just might put TMC either before or after TWW. If after, I'd put Oracles somewhere around there too.

[Jumbie]

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mohammedali: As for titles that link to the Oracle games, it still wouldn't imply that the Oracle games have happened, or are even in the same timeline (if talking about a split). The oracles would still exist even if Link hasn't encountered them yet. i.e. There is still an Oracle of Ages even if the game OoA hasn't taken place yet/isn't in the timeline at all.

The thing is that the Hylian/Japanese clearly doesn't mean the oracles as persons, but talks about the Japanese title of the Oracles games, "Seed of the Mysterious Tree". The fact that in Japan the games don't have the oracles in their titles makes it impossible to explain this book title in regards to timeline. If that phrase about the Tree is merely a game's name, how could it possibly be known to the people in TMC as a historical event?! Thus, it must be an easter egg, just like "Triumph Forks".

Edited by Jumbie, 13 July 2006 - 03:40 PM.