269 replies to this topic

[Arturo]

Fyxe, on Jul 16 2006, 09:45 PM, said:

Artuno, that's a big assumption to make. I can't imagine how that would happen, actually.

*cough*My name is ArtuRo*cough*

It's a big assumption, but it's the only logical explanation. If no-one understands what they say, but it's written in normal Hylian... then they speak another Hylian that is written the same. And how? What about a little tiny flood? In the world above, just the beings from before the flood speak the ancient language. And it's not that difficult. If they can forget about a huge flood, it's not that difficult to forget how you actually pronounce a letter. And the time between the Flood and TWW is quiote long. Do I understand Latin? NO

[Showsni]

Fyxe is clearly right here, in my opinion. The game designers just put the same made up language everywhere, with no thought for the timeline. It's just like a fun easter egg, that you can translate in game text. You can't use the text itself to debate timeline position. Even using what the text says is a bit iffy - if you do, then Phantom Ganon's sword was made by the blacksmiths in Majora's Mask.

[Arturo]

Showsni, on Jul 16 2006, 10:20 PM, said:

Fyxe is clearly right here, in my opinion. The game designers just put the same made up language everywhere, with no thought for the timeline. It's just like a fun easter egg, that you can translate in game text. You can't use the text itself to debate timeline position. Even using what the text says is a bit iffy - if you do, then Phantom Ganon's sword was made by the blacksmiths in Majora's Mask.

I have the same opinion as Fyxe *cough*

I don't see it as an easter egg itself, because sometimes it's useful for timeline (e. g. The Hylian Text transalation of the Itroduction of TWW reveals that Link's journey was not to another Land but "through the flows of time"). But is a way of introducing nice easter eggs (Zubora-Gabora...).

[Doopliss]

Arturo, on Jul 16 2006, 02:36 PM, said:

There are other proofs to situate TMC: Link's hat and the only game where people have knowledge of Minish, and that's the only game where the Triforce is named Light Force (don't try to argue about it, the Light Force is too powerful to be something else). And it's definetely before FS and FSA.

I read in an interview made to one of the creators of TMC where he says that the Light Force isn't the Triforce, and that we will never trully know what it is. I'll look for it and I'll post it, just give some time, I don't remeber what issue it was published on.

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 14. XXXV

[Arturo]

Doopliss, on Jul 17 2006, 04:07 AM, said:

I read in an interview made to one of the creators of TMC where he says that the Light Force isn't the Triforce, and that we will never trully know what it is. I'll look for it and I'll post it, just give some time, I don't remeber what issue it was published on.

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 14. XXXV

Do you remember what the ancient Sages from OoT did? They built the Temple of Time so that the Triforce might be protected from everyone. Why? Because it was too powerful. It's a little bit like what happened with Majora's Mask. Though many people assume that before OoT no-one used the Triforce, that's nowhere said. Because of the knowledge they have in OoT about the Triforce, I am sure, they have used it before.


This way I see TMC as an OoT backstory: one of the consequences of having the Triforce in Hyrule that made the Ancient Sages seal it in its original resting place, the Sacred Realm.

Remember the Triforce is in the Four Swords series: FSA Ending.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yea, as a picture on wall. And FSA can go before or after OOT so it doesn't really matter. Not to mention that the Triforce was everywhere in Hyrule before Link unlocked the Sacred Realm in OOT. It's a religious item and a royal crest.

[Jumbie]

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MikePetersSucks: Yea, as a picture on wall.

That's the only Triforce symbol in the whole game (I could be wrong, but certainly it's the most significant one). Can you guess why Zelda is shown entering a door with a Triforce symbol glowing at the wall? Hm, I cannot...

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And FSA can go before or after OOT so it doesn't really matter.

How can FSA possible go before OoT, with Ganondorf *reborn* as a new Gerudo, and explicitly called "the ancient demon reborn" by Zelda? But wait, don't tell me how it could work, I'm not in the mood for fan fiction right now.

[Doopliss]

Arturo, on Jul 17 2006, 04:01 AM, said:

Do you remember what the ancient Sages from OoT did? They built the Temple of Time so that the Triforce might be protected from everyone. Why? Because it was too powerful. It's a little bit like what happened with Majora's Mask. Though many people assume that before OoT no-one used the Triforce, that's nowhere said. Because of the knowledge they have in OoT about the Triforce, I am sure, they have used it before.
This way I see TMC as an OoT backstory: one of the consequences of having the Triforce in Hyrule that made the Ancient Sages seal it in its original resting place, the Sacred Realm.

Remember the Triforce is in the Four Swords series: FSA Ending.

That's ok, but you must fanfic to say that the Light Force is the Triforce and you would contradict the creators.

Jumbie, on Jul 17 2006, 02:27 PM, said:

That's the only Triforce symbol in the whole game (I could be wrong, but certainly it's the most significant one). Can you guess why Zelda is shown entering a door with a Triforce symbol glowing at the wall? Hm, I cannot...

What about MM? We see the Triforce mark sometimes, but surely there isn't a Triforce in Termina. If the Triforce was around in FSA, why didn't Ganon try to get it?

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 14. XXXVII

Edited by Doopliss, 18 July 2006 - 12:05 AM.

[Arturo]

Doopliss, on Jul 18 2006, 07:02 AM, said:

That's ok, but you must fanfic to say that the Light Force is the Triforce and you would contradict the creators.
What about MM? We see the Triforce mark sometimes, but surely there isn't a Triforce in Termina. If the Triforce was around in FSA, why didn't Ganon try to get it?

Before you say I am contradicting the creators, show me a quote. Anyway, creators are many times wrong. They said that FS was first in the timeline while, after FSA it's evident that it must be after OoT and ALttP.

Where do we see the Triforce Mark in Termina?

You don't have to fanfic to make the light force be the Triforce (note, light force and not Light Force). It's a triangle that has an incrediblöe and enormous power and a portion of it can turn you into a demi-god. Similar enough to the Triforce.

I never said that the Triforce was around, but that it is in FSA. I mean, Ganon didn't knopw about it, and no-one does, even maybe Zelda. But the Triforce is somewhere in Hyrule in FSA because it GLOWS when Zelda goes through that door. It's not a tiny symbol, but a glowing Triforce.

The Triforce being hidden connects well with the Sleeping Zelda story: the ToC is hidden somewhere in North Hyrule and it's not difficult that the other parts are also hidden and forgotten sealed somewhere in Hyrule Castle.

[Hero of Slime]

The game creators are never wrong, they can change the timeline but what thay say is true for one time. Before FSA was released FS was the first game of the timeline.

The Triforce symbols appear on collumns and blocks in Ikana.

Edited by The Zol, 18 July 2006 - 12:00 PM.

[Arturo]

The Zol, on Jul 18 2006, 06:58 PM, said:

The game creators are never wrong, they can change the timeline but what thay say is true for one time. Before FSA was released FS was the first game of the timeline.

*cough* OoT>LoZ>AoL>ALttP*cough*

Creators are wrong, and many times. They are human. And no word from their mouth is to be considered canon unless there is also an in-game evidence. And I still have not seen that incredible interview.

[Jumbie]

Well, what Arturo says about canonicity is correct. Developers' quotes only matter if they don't contradict any games. Thus, FS cannot have been the first game, but TMC can well be the first since also in the credits it implies that this was Link's first adventure. Nonetheless, I personally still am clueless if TMC is before or after OoT.

Master of ALttP, have you ever actually gathered evidence for the possibility that TMC is before OoT? Even though you disagree with this, you should try to eradicate all the evidence for it first, to be able to say that TMC after OoT is the only solution. The style of Hylian script used in the games is simply not enough.

Edited by Jumbie, 18 July 2006 - 06:00 PM.

[Fyxe]

Master of ALttP, on Jul 18 2006, 10:21 PM, said:

Actaully, FSA can't take place before OoT. This is because Modern Hylian is used in FSA. Since Old Hylian is the dominant language in Hyrule during OoT and we know that Modern Hylian wasn't made until many centuries later, then FSA can't possibly be before OoT.

While I agree that for *other* reasons, FSA is after OoT, stating the type of Hylian used is not evidence.

[MikePetersSucks]

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I never said that the Triforce was around, but that it is in FSA. I mean, Ganon didn't knopw about it, and no-one does, even maybe Zelda. But the Triforce is somewhere in Hyrule in FSA because it GLOWS when Zelda goes through that door. It's not a tiny symbol, but a glowing Triforce.

Yea, it glows. And the rest of the universe seems to fucking dissapear. That was just a cool image to go out on. It has no plot significance whatsoever. It's just like how a star comes out on the Game Over screen after you beat Mario 64. It doesn't mean you missed a star. It's just a cool icon. Besides, even if you're trying to imply that the Triforce is hanging on Zelda's wall, the entire sky in Hyrule would be a permanent gold day and night because of the Triforce's properties, so uh...no.

[Arturo]

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 19 2006, 08:45 PM, said:

Yea, it glows. And the rest of the universe seems to fucking dissapear. That was just a cool image to go out on. It has no plot significance whatsoever. It's just like how a star comes out on the Game Over screen after you beat Mario 64. It doesn't mean you missed a star. It's just a cool icon. Besides, even if you're trying to imply that the Triforce is hanging on Zelda's wall, the entire sky in Hyrule would be a permanent gold day and night because of the Triforce's properties, so uh...no.

I don't say that's the Triforce, but that it means something. Specially if the Triforce doesn't appear in the game at all until that point.

[Hero of Slime]

I agree with MikePetersSucks, the Triforce is nothing more than a symbol on the wall.

[Doopliss]

I found the interview. It was published in March, 2005 in the only official Mexican Nintendo magazine, called Club Nintendo, however it seems like it was published in Nintendo Power as well. The interview was made to Hidemaro Fujibayashi (Capcom) and to Eiji Aonuma. I won't post the whole interview, but tell me if you want me to post it complete. I'm tranlating from Spanish to English, so maybe this isn't exactly the same as the text published in Nintendo Power

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NP: In the game's prologue, something it's mentioned about that the Minish people brought a Light Force to Hyrule. Is that the Triforce?

HF: The Light Force is a very old legend of Hyrule and no one knows it's relation with the Triforce. Its relation with the Triforce, which is the most important element in the series The Legend of Zelda, will continue being a mistery.

So he says that the Light Force and the Triforce are related, but it seems to me that he's implying that they aren't the same. I think that the creators' quotes aren't valid when they contradict canon, but Hidemaro Fujibayashi isn't contradicting canon. On the other hand, this interview can help us clear something that we can't determine properly by ourselves because the lack of facts.

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 15. XXXVIII

[Fyxe]

Sounds to me that the Light Force and the Triforce MAY be related somewhere in past history, but as for the details, it's a mystery and not worth worrying about it, because the creators probably haven't thought it through themselves.

[Jumbie]

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Doopliss: I won't post the whole interview, but tell me if you want me to post it complete.

If it's all about TMC, then yes, you could post everything.

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I'm tranlating from Spanish to English, so maybe this isn't exactly the same as the text published in Nintendo Power

I see, that might be problematic. But I happen to also understand Spanish, and Arturo is from Spain, so maybe you could post the Spanish text.

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Interview: NP: In the game's prologue, something it's mentioned about that the Minish people brought a Light Force to Hyrule. Is that the Triforce?

HF: The Light Force is a very old legend of Hyrule and no one knows it's relation with the Triforce. Its relation with the Triforce, which is the most important element in the series The Legend of Zelda, will continue being a mistery.

"a very old legend of Hyrule" -- Sounds more like earlier generations in Hyrule knew about its nature, rather than in TMC they don't know yet about it and later in OoT they do.
"no one knows its relation with the Triforce", "..will continue being a mystery" -- No Hyrulean, or no developer? Well of course, it's so obvious that Light Force = Triforce. Probably the developers just can't think of a way to admit it, without complicated storyline issues.

Edited by Jumbie, 20 July 2006 - 09:17 AM.

[Fyxe]

Jumbie, quite frankly it's obvious they aren't the *same* thing. They may be connected, in that the Light Force may be the very power behind the Triforce, but they are *not* the same thing.

And your assumption about the words 'very old legend of Hyrule' makes absolutely no sense.

[Doopliss]

I'll translate the whole interview, but later. I don't really feel like doing it right now...

Here's the text I quoted in Spanish:

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NP: En el prólogo del juego, se menciona algo de que la gente Minish trajo una luz dorada a Hyrule. ¿Es la Trifuerza?
HF: La luz dorada es una muy vieja leyenda de Hyrule, y nadie sabe su relación con la Trifuerza. Seguirá siendo un gran misterio su relación con la Trifuerza, la cual es el elemento más importante en la serie de La Leyenda de Zelda.

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 16. XLII

[Jumbie]

Thank you It's quite interesting, the interviewer actually asked about the "golden light" (how the Light Force is called in TMC's intro). And in his answer, Fujibayashi also calls it a golden light rather than Light Force. With neither of them using the term Light Force, I got another impression of it. Also it should be considered that in Japanese, the term for Light Force is simply "Force".

Now, if we get to see two shiny golden triangles (one resting inside Zelda and another one inside the Hero of Men) which are called "Force" and were brought to Hyrule by the Minish from the "Heavens" (=Sacred Realm), how can it be farfetched to conclude Force = Triforce?!
It's nothing but your restless urge to differentiate each and everything, even if it's clearly visible to be the same. Unneeded differentiating only leads to complexity and confusion, whereas matching+merging leads to simplicity and comprehension.

[MikePetersSucks]

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I don't say that's the Triforce, but that it means something. Specially if the Triforce doesn't appear in the game at all until that point.

Or it could just be a cool image to end the game with. It doesn't have to mean jack shit.

As for the Light Force thing, I really doubt it's the Triforce. A connection maybe, but if it was the Triforce, the entire series would be fucked up. The Light Force runs through Zelda's blood. If it's the full Triforce, it wouldn't be in her BODY, and even if it WAS, the sky would be a permanent gold and there'd be no way that stone spell would've worked. If it's only the Triforce of Wisdom or such, then it wouldn't be as powerful as it is, and most certainly two thirds of the Triforce of Wisdom wouldn't let Vaati be a god.

The only evidence to support that the Triforce and Light Force are the same is a syllable and an icon. Frankly, when I saw the Light Force (Which is in an artistic interpretation and doesn't have to be literal or nessessarily mean jack squat.) I instantly thought "Gold Force Gem" not "Triforce?"

Besides petty things like graphics and syllables, give me one good, hard piece of evidence that the Light Force and the Triforce are the same.

[Hero of Slime]

Dindn't the minish only bring back one Light force? I thought the one they gave to the Hero was the same one that was in Zelda.

Jumbie said

whereas matching+merging leads to simplicity and comprehension.

Mathcing and merging leads to quick assumptions with little to no hard evidence. Plus with connections being drawn between everything, it makes the Zelda world seem small.

[Fyxe]

Zol, you're right, there's only one Light Force.

[Jumbie]

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The Zol: Dindn't the minish only bring back one Light force? I thought the one they gave to the Hero was the same one that was in Zelda.

I disagree. If the Force is the Triforce, then there have to be three pieces: the ToC with the Hero of Men, the ToW with Zelda (and Vaati), and the ToP is not shown in TMC.
Nowhere does it say that "there's only one Light Force". That's just a silly assumption.

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MikePetersSucks: As for the Light Force thing, I really doubt it's the Triforce. A connection maybe, but if it was the Triforce, the entire series would be fucked up.

Sure, the series is messed up through this, but that's just the way it is!

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The Light Force runs through Zelda's blood.

Yes it does, finally giving us an explanation how the Triforce pieces are passed on to the descendants.

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If it's the full Triforce, it wouldn't be in her BODY

It's not the complete Triforce, of course, only the ToW (or have you ever seen Zelda with something else than the ToW?!). And yes, Triforce pieces are *always* held inside the bodies of their bearers.

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and even if it WAS, the sky would be a permanent gold and there'd be no way that stone spell would've worked.

Huh, the sky would have to be golden? Lol, where did you get that from! I'm afraid you're quoting that poem which the US localizers said to be from the Book of Mudora.. However, in Japanese it says nothing about golden sky, nor does the name Golden Land even exist.
As for the stone spell: Zelda actually tried to protect herself with the Force's power, but Vaati's magic was stronger - just like the ToW cannot fully block Ganon's magic.

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If it's only the Triforce of Wisdom or such, then it wouldn't be as powerful as it is

You're contradicting yourself. You see that Zelda's Force cannot protect her from the spell, and we both agree that the ToW is too weak for protecting. So, the Force has the same power as the ToW!

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and most certainly two thirds of the Triforce of Wisdom wouldn't let Vaati be a god.

Apparently they do. Remember, each Triforce piece can be broken into 8 shards. Vaati wears the Minish Cap, which allowed his wizardry to increase, in the first place. Now with some shards of the Force, Vaati is strong enough to transform into a demon, a form in which he stays as until he disappears in FSA.

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Besides petty things like graphics and syllables, give me one good, hard piece of evidence that the Light Force and the Triforce are the same.

Conclusions based on common sense, and matching up things with a similar nature. The Hero of Men had one third of the Force, Zelda has one third of the Force, and the last third is lost. That's all my assumptions, but based on what we have seen in previous games!

Edited by Jumbie, 20 July 2006 - 02:33 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

Fyxe confirmed that I was right, there is only one Light Force mentioned in the Minish Cap. The one given to the Hero is the Same one that Vaati takes from Zelda. The light force passed from the Hero to the royal family where it is passed down to Zelda, and then drained by Vaati.

If the light force is a piece of the Triforce, you should not assume that it is wisdom. It could be any of the three pieces.

Edited by The Zol, 20 July 2006 - 02:43 PM.

[Jumbie]

The Zol, on Jul 20 2006, 09:41 PM, said:

Fyxe confirmed that I was right, there is only one Light Force mentioned in the Minish Cap. The one given to the Hero is the Same one that Vaati takes from Zelda. The light force passed from the Hero to the royal family where it is passed down to Zelda, and then drained by Vaati.

If the light force is a piece of the Triforce, you should not assume that it is wisdom. It could be any of the three pieces.

Oh well. If I always believed what Fyxe says was true..! Again, where in the game does it imply that the Hero's and Zelda's Force are the same one?! They might as well be two different ones, and since TMC doesn't make it clear, I base it on how the Triforce worked in the previous games: Zelda got Triforce of Wisdom, Link got Triforce of Courage. Since Vaati is not Ganon, he doesn't get Power but some shards of Zelda's Triforce of Wisdom. Remember, Zelda never had any other Triforce than Wisdom. That's just logical.
Who can say for sure that the Force passed from the Hero to the Royal Family?! Can you give me a quote in TWW?

[Hero of Slime]

Fyxe really knows the game's details and I have no reason to doubt her.
I think it is highly implied that there is only one Light Force, TMC only mentioned the one and said that it was passed from the minish to the hero, then to the royal family, then to zelda and then to Vaati.
I don't know how I could find a quote in TWW that proves this.

Since the Light force was given to the hero from the Minish, there is no reason to assume it is wisdom.