269 replies to this topic

[Arturo]

Remember that these are the people who put coins in ? Blocks. I REALLY doubt they considered it to be a future plot point when they were making the very first Zelda, when they didn't even plan AOL then until they saw how much of a profit they made.

You are misinterpreting. None of us thinks that when they created LoZ they thougth: "Let's put something we will explain in 18 years time". What we think is that canon changes with time. Though when they created LoZ they didn't have any intention of putting Minish in it, when they created TMC, they decided that Minish were in all games. So, if there are Minish in LoZ, they can be as easily in AoL.

Several nameless NPC's with reused sprites and whatnot, but here's an example no one can argue with. Tingle is even shorter than Child Link. Thus, Tingle, who is Hylian, is a midget. Thus, there ARE Midget Hylians. And that's not even addressing that people grow shorter with age and that AOL Link a pretty tall individual. The AOL man was also almost exactly Impa's height, and she was definately not a Minish.

That's in TWW. In MM he has a normal height. Anyway, AoL Link is not that tall, he's as tall as Princess Zelda, generally women are much shorter than men. And that man is HALF his height.

EDIT: Bwahahahahahaha!!!!! I have editted my post Fyxe!!!!!!!! Tingle is not normal anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Arturo, 24 July 2006 - 02:52 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

You are misinterpreting. None of us thinks that when they created LoZ they thougth: "Let's put something we will explain in 18 years time". What we think is that canon changes with time. Though when they created LoZ they didn't have any intention of putting Minish in it, when they created TMC, they decided that Minish were in all games. So, if there are Minish in LoZ, they can be as easily in AoL.

Still doesn't mean the old man is a Minish. He has Hylian ears and everything.

That's in TWW. In MM he's quite normal. Anyway, AoL Link is not that tall, he's as tall as Princess Zelda, generally women are much shorter than men. And that man is HALF his height.

Yea, and in MM he's not even technically Hylian, so it's moot. But in TWW, OOX, FSA, TRPG, and pretty much every other game he appears in, he's a midget who would be roughly half AOL Link's size.

[Fyxe]

That's in TWW. In MM he's quite normal.

Quoted to emphasise the craziness of the words posted.

[Fyxe]

I read all that. I'm obviously mad.

However, whole I agree with most of the things you are saying, you are making one big assumption... That Hyrule could never of been united before the war. A war has to start somewhere.

There are contradictions within OoT's text itself. One person speaks of a 'long peace', but if we assume the war was ending when Link's mother dies, that's still only at *most* ten years ago. Ten years isn't really a 'long peace' unless, before those ten years, there were more than one short war every few years or so. If it had been a long, 100 year war or something, ten years would not seem like a 'long peace'. I expect there were a series of wars and skirmishes before Hyrule was 'unitied'. I expect the Gerudo or some other faction was involved in the war. Or, hey, it could of simply been Hylian against Hylian.

The thing is, you're making a big assumption simply based on the word 'unified'. Unified doesn't have to mean anything much at all other than 'everyone signed a treaty and stopped fighting'. The Royal Family existed for ages. There MUST have been a king of this family. Otherwise it wouldn't be a Royal Family. Nowhere does it imply that the country of Hyrule did not exist until recently. All it means is that there was war and disunion all around.

And, if you went far enough back in time, the ancient Royal Family may of had an even longer period of peace.

Still, I don't actually believe that TMC comes before OoT. But I'm just saying that it still *could*.

Edited by Fyxe, 24 July 2006 - 07:58 PM.

[Doopliss]

I have been inactive for some days because I'm obsessed with Ragnarok Online in this moment, so I won't read all the posts for now. I had an idea about the Light Force and the Triforce while reading through the thread. It's stated in both OoT and ALttP that the gods created Hyrule and hid the Triforce in the Sacred Realm. ALttP and OoT strongly imply that the Triforce hadn't been touched until the IW (in case OoT is the IW, on which most of us agree, at least for a split timeline). This means that the humans actually were the ones who discovered the Triforce, unlike the Light Force that was given to them by the Picori. We could say that the Minish World is the Sacred Realm, but I agree with Mike Peters Sucks who said that the Sacred Realm doesn't open each 100 years. In addition, we have no proves to believe that the Minish World is the Sacred Realm.

Now, I officially declare the termination of the Frech pacific manifestation in favor of the Pie Forum.

[Hero of Slime]

Now what did the Deku Tree mean when he said that the King United hyrule? In play OoT, it does not appear like Hyrule has one central government. Instead, each race has thier own government and territories. The Hylian King controls the Hylians, the Zora King controls the Zoras, and the Gerudo King controls the Gerudo. That does not sound like a unified country.

I think the unification of Hyrule, was more of an alliance between nations than a creation of a central government.

[Fyxe]

Well, wouldn't the Great Deku Tree had said that the king of Hyrule reunited Hyrule if that were the case? Since he didn't say it, it's very safe to say that Hyrule hasn't been a completely unified country in the past.

It's not safe to assume that. He wouldn't bother to say 'reunited' if Hyrule has been involved in many skirmishes and wars repeatedly over the years. It basically depends on the timescale. If TMC or any other Zelda game HAD occured before OoT, they would of occured a loooong time ago, so saying 'reunited' to Link would be meaningless, because he has no knowledge of Hyrule ever being united in the past, and neither does the player. But that doesn't mean it couldn't of been.

I also read in there something about Hyrule having many short wars. That's a very good idea. The Fierce War could have been the biggest war among the Hylia to be the leading family of Hyrule, with many smaller wars taking place before. It sounds almost like Old England, how there would be noble families with their own knights serving under them. They'd often fight for more land, which could be what caused Hyrule's "bloody history of greed and hatred." I like a lot of these ideas. They sound very plausible.

Hyrule is based on medeval England, after all (as are many Japanese made fantasy series, the ones with dragons and suchforth, even Final Fantasy is based on it). The Sheikah are implied, to an extent, to be assassins for the Royal Family.

It's stuff like that that makes me wish for a Fire Emblem game set in the Zelda realm. That would be so much fun. The two series do have some connections on the surface.

[Doopliss]

We have no idea of precisely how much time has passed since the goddesses created Hyrule. It seems a lot to me because Hylians have almost forgotten everything they should know about their magical powers. Probably it is older than the Deku Tree. Also, what tells us the the Hyrule of TMC is the same from OoT? Can't it be a smaller area named the same way?

[Jumbie]

The thing is, major things in TMC and OoT's Hyrule don't match up. The mountains aren't in the right place, Lake Hylia is too far to the northeast, and there's no desert. Deserts don't just pop up out of nowhere, and lakes don't move you know!

Yes, the only areas in TMC that match up with both OoT and ALttP are Lake Hylia and Veil Falls... The latter must be where Zora's fountain is later on, since it is repeated very importantly in the game that these falls are the source of water in Hyrule, just what is said about Zora's Fountain in OoT. And Lake Hylia in TMC has also got 2-3 little islands, like in OoT/ALttP.
But Mount Crenel, that is strange. Why invent a new name for it, and why include Gorons in the game but not let them settle on the mountain?! There must be some reason behind it, since Capcom could've taken the easy road and just include a Death Mountain with Gorons living on it... Why'd they do this?

[Hero of Slime]

Because Mount Crenel and Death Mountain are different. Why do you think that there can only be one mountain in Hyrule?

[SOAP]

I heard a theory once that TMC used to be the third Oracle game that got scrapped. Mt Crenel could've been one of the locations in that game and it was just reused when they decided to breathe new life into it.

[Jumbie]

Because Mount Crenel and Death Mountain are different. Why do you think that there can only be one mountain in Hyrule?

I don't think that at all, especially regarding TWW with all its mountain peaks! But still, we have never seen Nintendo include a mountain in a Zelda game that wasn't named Death Mountain (excluding the games that happen outside of Hyrule, of course). I only wonder why Capcom introduced a new mountain that is very similar to Death Mountain but seems to have a totally different 'history'..

I heard a theory once that TMC used to be the third Oracle game that got scrapped. Mt Crenel could've been one of the locations in that game and it was just reused when they decided to breathe new life into it.

That's pretty interesting.. The idea would make much sense, considering all the references made to Oracles in TMC. Mt Crenel is called "Mt Gonguru" in Japanese - is there a name like that somewhere in Oracles? The closest I can think of is "Gorugon", as General Onox is called in Japan...

Edited by Jumbie, 25 July 2006 - 06:03 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

only wonder why Capcom introduced a new mountain that is very similar to Death Mountain but seems to have a totally different 'history'..

Because going to the same places in every game makes Zelda more predictable and a predictable video game is a bad thing. Adding new areas makes the game more interesting. Even a vetran zelda player will not know what to expect.

[Jumbie]

Because going to the same places in every game makes Zelda more predictable and a predictable video game is a bad thing. Adding new areas makes the game more interesting. Even a vetran zelda player will not know what to expect.

For this reason, they added the Wind Ruins and the cloud lands! Oh well, they're not really new either, but..
To be honest, when climbing Mt Crenel in TMC, I didn't have the feeling of being anywhere else than on the Death Mountain I've grown used to. A new name alone is not the greatest innovation.. Admit, if they had called it Death Mountain, we would all have believed it was the same one as in the other games, wouldn't we?

[Fyxe]

Actually, Crenel didn't feel much like Death Mountain, personally, until you enter the dungeon.

You've just become conditioned to think 'mountain = Death Mountain'.

Crenel had a completely different peak, a rainy theme, water, and all that stuff.

[Jumbie]

Actually, Crenel didn't feel much like Death Mountain, personally, until you enter the dungeon.

You've just become conditioned to think 'mountain = Death Mountain'.

Crenel had a completely different peak, a rainy theme, water, and all that stuff.

So, I guess that is your experience..
The dungeon - well, it was a mine, and unless Dodongo's Cavern also counts as a mine, the dungeon was not what reminded me of Death Mountain.
It was the steep walls (reminiscent of OoT, and FSA actually), the countless caves, the hermit (like in ALttP), the crashing boulders, the Tektites... The withered trees at Crenel Base seemed to be a welcomed innovation at first, but you know what - that so reminded me of LoZ, with the dead trees on the foothills!

Edited by Jumbie, 25 July 2006 - 07:20 PM.

[Showsni]

Actually, the mountain in ALttP is really called Hebra Mountain (in the Light World) not Death Mountain. (Since we always use the Japanese canon...)

[Fyxe]

Jumbie, you've just simply described aspects of a mountain.

I don't remember withered trees in the foothills of TLoZ... I only remember Armos.

[coinilius]

There were withered trees on the screens above the graveyard, in the mountain areas.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Using the geography of Zelda games is pointless in this matter.

[MikePetersSucks]

Says the one who advocated the practice like a salesman only a little under a year ago.

[Alardonin]

QUOTE
I also read in there something about Hyrule having many short wars. That's a very good idea. The Fierce War could have been the biggest war among the Hylia to be the leading family of Hyrule, with many smaller wars taking place before. It sounds almost like Old England, how there would be noble families with their own knights serving under them. They'd often fight for more land, which could be what caused Hyrule's "bloody history of greed and hatred." I like a lot of these ideas. They sound very plausible.

Hyrule is based on medeval England, after all (as are many Japanese made fantasy series, the ones with dragons and suchforth, even Final Fantasy is based on it). The Sheikah are implied, to an extent, to be assassins for the Royal Family.

It's stuff like that that makes me wish for a Fire Emblem game set in the Zelda realm. That would be so much fun. The two series do have some connections on the surface.

Im contraticting the views i had in my other posts,but since i dont have a definitive time line but many it doesnt mater.I also thought of the Fierce War happening do to the possesion of land like many of you are stating,but maybe,just maybe also one of the reasons for the fierce war was the triforce as well,now i know [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of stuff that can contradict this,but still its possible.If the imprisioning war happened in OOT it is said in the history of the IW that people began to fight do to the triforce,and because of the poem there were fights betwen the hylia.

perhaps do to time the so caled Imprisoning War got mixed up with the Fierce War,like you were stating there is a chance of the hylia having possible civil wars and that does connect with the acountings of the IW.

Yes indeed the Sheikah were probably assasins but if they had indeed created the Gossip Stones that are skatered in Hyrule you could say that indeed they were very needed as the protectors of the Hylia Royal Family good example of this WW,like it is shown the symbol of the Sheikah apers to be something close to an all seing eye the same symbol in the Gossip Stones.

Perhaps the Sheikah were also masters of espionage do to their vision of all the land of hyrule do to the Gossip Stones,this would como in handy like locating enemy hideouts or armies,among anything you could imagine happening in a war.

[Jumbie]

Jumbie, you've just simply described aspects of a mountain.

Emm, not really. The mountains I usually climb don't have crashing boulders nor Tektites.
If you actually meant "aspects of a Zelda mountain", then remember that the only other mountains in Zelda appear in Koholint, Labrynna and Holodrum. In the Kingdom of Hyrule, we have never before seen a different mountain than Death Mountain.

I don't remember withered trees in the foothills of TLoZ... I only remember Armos.

There were withered trees on the screens above the graveyard, in the mountain areas.

There you got it confirmed by coinilius. I would've linked to a screenshot, but I'm actually so tired of proving the most certain things.

Using the geography of Zelda games is pointless in this matter.

Sure, geography is more part of the gameplay than of the storyline, but still the developers are free to decide what landmark they let reappear in a new game, and where they put it. So, they might as well put some thought into it.

maybe also one of the reasons for the fierce war was the triforce as well,now i know [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of stuff that can contradict this,but still its possible.If the imprisioning war happened in OOT it is said in the history of the IW that people began to fight do to the triforce,and because of the poem there were fights betwen the hylia.

perhaps do to time the so caled Imprisoning War got mixed up with the Fierce War,like you were stating there is a chance of the hylia having possible civil wars and that does connect with the acountings of the IW.

Yes of course, that's exactly how it happened. The fierce war was about the Triforce, as ALttP says, and the legends of ALttP are a merge of the fierce war and of the Sealing War.

Yes indeed the Sheikah were probably assasins but if they had indeed created the Gossip Stones that are skatered in Hyrule you could say that indeed they were very needed as the protectors of the Hylia Royal Family good example of this WW,like it is shown the symbol of the Sheikah apers to be something close to an all seing eye the same symbol in the Gossip Stones.

Perhaps the Sheikah were also masters of espionage do to their vision of all the land of hyrule do to the Gossip Stones,this would como in handy like locating enemy hideouts or armies,among anything you could imagine happening in a war.

And again, that's exactly how OoT explains it. Since you got everything right, you might be more certain about what you know is true

Edited by Jumbie, 26 July 2006 - 05:50 PM.

[Alardonin]

Yes of course, that's exactly how it happened. The fierce war was about the Triforce, as ALttP says, and the legends of ALttP are a merge of the fierce war and of the Sealing War.
And again, that's exactly how OoT explains it. Since you got everything right, you might be more certain about what you know is true

i dont really know if you were being sarcastic at the begining Jumbie,but if you were thats why i said that there was a lot of stuff that could contredict the theory,so in no way am i stating it as truth because when it comes to zelda who can.

Now about ocarina of time stating that the Gossip Stones served as a way of espionage im sorry but if that is indeed true i didnt really remember.

[Jumbie]

i dont really know if you were being sarcastic at the begining Jumbie,but if you were thats why i said that there was a lot of stuff that could contredict the theory,so in no way am i stating it as truth because when it comes to zelda who can.

Now about ocarina of time stating that the Gossip Stones served as a way of espionage im sorry but if that is indeed true i didnt really remember.

Not being sarcastic at all (if I use irony, I usually make it clear so one will realize).
It's true, most of the time it's better if people are careful with stating things they don't really know as facts, but in your case there's no need for being unsure. All of that are canon facts, that's what I wanted to say

[Alardonin]

Not being sarcastic at all (if I use irony, I usually make it clear so one will realize).
It's true, most of the time it's better if people are careful with stating things they don't really know as facts, but in your case there's no need for being unsure. All of that are canon facts, that's what I wanted to say

like i´ve stated of course there couldnt possibly be facts,almost nothing is in zelda.

Ill put it a litle more complete,ok now whe have ALTTP IW,and if this is an acount of the explanation of ocarina of time,you could see that since some lore of the Fierce War was forgotten,and the name itself was also forgotten that lore could be placed at the later happenings of the imprisoning war.

And i didnt state that the triforce would be the only cause for the war,i stated as one of the causes,maybe that cause was one of the primary reasons for the war or simply civil wars at the time,and then at the time of the calming of the war like many were arguing back in the article some of the reasons of the cause of the war were forgotten.Reasons like the triforce since we dont really know how much time the war endured,but maybe some acountings were left of that time known by the royal family and not the people,almost nothing in ocarina of time states the Fierce War not even the people as if most of the lore of the war was forgotten,perhaps in the ALTTP lore they did not know of the name(Fierce War)but knew some of the happenings of it and translated those acounts to a later IW.

[Fyxe]

Emm, not really. The mountains I usually climb don't have crashing boulders nor Tektites.
If you actually meant "aspects of a Zelda mountain", then remember that the only other mountains in Zelda appear in Koholint, Labrynna and Holodrum. In the Kingdom of Hyrule, we have never before seen a different mountain than Death Mountain.

Incorrect, technically the only Death Mountain in ALttP was in the Dark World. As someone has mentioned, the one in the Light World is 'Hebra Mountain'.