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Timeline placement of TMC


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#31 Guest_Master of ALttP_*

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:46 PM

Actually, TSA told me that Twilight Princess will be using a different style of Hylian text. Then I read that he's still being an ass about people "stealing his material." I'm sorry, it doesn't belong to TSA. It's not his. Anyways, it'll probably be the version of Hylian that I'll try and learn once I learn some Japanese.

#32 Arturo

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 03:06 PM

Actually, TSA told me that Twilight Princess will be using a different style of Hylian text. Then I read that he's still being an ass about people "stealing his material." I'm sorry, it doesn't belong to TSA. It's not his. Anyways, it'll probably be the version of Hylian that I'll try and learn once I learn some Japanese.


I think we should not bring the argument between TSA and LotL here.


But I remember having seen in one of the trailers an inscription in TWW Hylian. We will not about it really until the game is launched. As soon as possible.

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 05:00 PM

I think we should not bring the argument between TSA and LotL here.
But I remember having seen in one of the trailers an inscription in TWW Hylian. We will not about it really until the game is launched. As soon as possible.

Yeah, it would be best not to talk about TSA. I might watch the trailer that it's in, just to take a look. I'll tell you all if it's a different form of Hylian.

#34 Hylian

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 05:16 PM

You really thing the type of Hylian used proves where the games go? It wasn't until TWW that the designers actually gave Hylian individual letters and made it possible to translate Hylian into Japanese. Therefore, in every game following TWW, they are likely to use this form of Hylian when they need to.

Before that, Hylian was just occasional randomly designed lettering that meant nothing.

This is a game design issue, not a timeline issue.


Oh, I misunderstood then... my bad!
I thought he didn't know what it said...

Edited by Hylian, 13 July 2006 - 05:16 PM.


#35 Fyxe

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 06:29 PM

Well, there might, MIGHT be an alphabet for the Hylian used in games before TWW, but I am 99% sure there isn't one. There isn't enough letters shown, for one thing.

#36 Jumbie

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 09:23 PM

Fyxe: Well, there might, MIGHT be an alphabet for the Hylian used in games before TWW, but I am 99% sure there isn't one. There isn't enough letters shown, for one thing.


Well, here's the missing 1 percent:
http://chris-fritz.b...elda-games.html

Look where this guy has translated some signs of OoT. The translations are authentic, I once tried this myself, using the Old Hylian alphabet.

Edited by Jumbie, 13 July 2006 - 09:26 PM.


#37 Fyxe

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 09:52 PM

And how, pray tell, did he translate it?

#38 Jumbie

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 09:19 AM

There is a website which has the characters of all imaginary languages online, e.g. Klingon, Sindarin and also N64 style Hylian:
http://www.omniglot....ting/hylian.htm

The transcription is authentic, as can easily be proven by transliterating a sign in OoT/MM by yourself.

Edited by Jumbie, 14 July 2006 - 09:30 AM.


#39 Fyxe

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 09:05 PM

Why I Created This Language


From Kasuto.net.

It would be easy to design a language that fits with the signs on OoT. But considering how little Hylian is shown in OoT, coming up with a whole alphabet seems impossible. I am unclear on the legitimacy of these translations. TWW had a very clear translation table. OoT has nothing of the sort from my knowledge.

Edited by Fyxe, 14 July 2006 - 09:05 PM.


#40 Jumbie

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 08:29 AM

:angry: The transcription table on Omniglot has nothing to do with Kasuto.net's fan-made Hylian, nor that of any other fansite!

Just insert OoT in your N64, go around the game a bit and transcribe the signs on your own. If you then ask somebody who speaks Japanese, you'll be assured that the game designers did work out a meaning behind the Hylian script, even though a table for the fans was not printed in OoT's manual. <_<

#41 Fyxe

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:20 AM

Maybe they did, but I still don't see how anyone worked this out. There simply isn't enough lettering in OoT to relate it to the entire Japanese alphabet.

Anyway, it's all irrelevant, because it doesn't prove anything. Again, it's a game design issue rather than solid proof of placement for any game.

#42 Guest_Master of ALttP_*

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 08:24 PM

Maybe they did, but I still don't see how anyone worked this out. There simply isn't enough lettering in OoT to relate it to the entire Japanese alphabet.

There doesn't have to be. If there was, then it'd just make my job much harder.

Anyway, it's all irrelevant, because it doesn't prove anything. Again, it's a game design issue rather than solid proof of placement for any game.

Most of the text is irrelevant. Out of laziness, almost all text is mirrored when it won't end up changing the overall appearance of what it's used on. This would be on signs, graves, and things like that. However, things such as posters throughout Clock Town may have some actual meaning to them. Not anything important to timeline discussion, but it'd still be interesting to know what it says.

Now, what the important thing here in TMC is that Modern Hylian script is used. I don't see it hard to agree that the game can't come before OoT because of the form of Hylian used. Since we know that Modern Hylian didn't exist until TWW, then we know that any game featuring this writing style anywhere within it cannot take place before the creation of the language. Since we don't know the exact date, then I can't exactly place TMC. However, it can't go before OoT because it wasn't until centuries later that Modern Hylian came into existence.

#43 Doopliss

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 08:43 PM

I don't think that is enough to prove it definitely goes after OoT. There are many consequences that I have pointed before in this thread if we take so rigorously the characters issue. In addition, there are more important aspects of the game that can help us determine if it really goes after OoT.

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#44 Fyxe

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 08:43 PM

No. It's a game design issue, nothing more. They came up with the whole alphabet in TWW and finally put it in the manual for people to translate. Hence, in following games they are going to use the same text, no matter where in the series the game is.

It's for the fans to mess about with decifering, nothing more.

#45 Octorok

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 09:51 PM

I don't think that the style of language holds any meaning whatsoever, either, for basically the same reason. Even if it meant anything, basing a tiemline around that single 'clue' would be a bad idea in my opinion.

#46 Reflectionist

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 09:59 PM

Something tells me that it's more than just a game design.

(That garb you wear...
Could you be the legendary hero?

Has the king at long last found the
Hero of Time?

What is the matter? Do you not understand
the ancient Hylian tongue?

So...you are not the Hero of Time.)

I must apologize. I was in error.
I saw your clothing, and suddenly I felt a
longing for an age gone by... That longing
caused the ancient tongue to pass my lips.


EDIT - The key word there is "Hylian," meaning it isn't just a random 'ancient' language to give the game Depth. It's a Hylian Language, much like the one you kids are debating about now.

Even in-game, in the history, there are two different languages.

Edited by Reflectionist, 15 July 2006 - 10:03 PM.


#47 Doopliss

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:07 PM

That's interesting, indeed. Could someone check if the characters that are used to write what the characters say in TWW when Link can't understand them are the same as the ones of OoT?

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#48 Reflectionist

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:14 PM

That's interesting, indeed. Could someone check if the characters that are used to write what the characters say in TWW when Link can't understand them are the same as the ones of OoT?

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They aren't. And that probably has something to do with the text bubble.

But I'm not sure abou the Japanese Version of the game. It might be in there, as it is a Japanese oriented Language. Who knows.

Side Note- this isn't really relevant, but this is a Japanese game..... but in the trailer for W.W., the girl is speaking with a British Accent. Strange indeed...

Edited by Reflectionist, 15 July 2006 - 10:15 PM.


#49 Fyxe

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:14 PM

They won't be. One is 'Ancient Hylian' and one is 'Modern Hylian', which isn't actually 'modern' in the slightest.

The 'ancient Hylian' in TWW is the same text that the translation table was for, I believe.

#50 Reflectionist

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:17 PM

They won't be. One is 'Ancient Hylian' and one is 'Modern Hylian', which isn't actually 'modern' in the slightest.

The 'ancient Hylian' in TWW is the same text that the translation table was for, I believe.



That doesn't make sense. How could the Deku Tree, Valoo, and Jabun speak a 'dead' language thats on every sign and poster in the game?

#51 Doopliss

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:27 PM

They won't be. One is 'Ancient Hylian' and one is 'Modern Hylian', which isn't actually 'modern' in the slightest.

The 'ancient Hylian' in TWW is the same text that the translation table was for, I believe.

In that case, only the spoken language was ancient, Reflectionist.

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#52 Reflectionist

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:36 PM

In that case, only the spoken language was ancient, Reflectionist.

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Yep.

Which means that the Ocarina of Time Hylian, which is debated about wether it even exists or is just a coincidence, is the Ancient Language that is spoken of.

#53 Doopliss

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 10:41 PM

That's ok, I doubt anyone will disagree on that. But my point is that it doesn't prove that TMC's text is more actual than OoT's.

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Edited by Doopliss, 15 July 2006 - 10:42 PM.


#54 mohammedali

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 06:34 AM

Which means that the Ocarina of Time Hylian, which is debated about wether it even exists or is just a coincidence, is the Ancient Language that is spoken of.

Why is OoT Hylian debated? We see it in the game. It clearly exists.
We currently have 2 types of Hylian, that which we see in OoT, and that which we see in WW.

As for the ancient tounge in WW. This doesn't mean the WW Hylian language is ancient, as people can all read WW Hylian. Instead of the ancient language being verbal only, it could be the case that they are simply writing ancient Hylian in modern Hylian text. Similar to how one can more or less write one language in another language (granted, with a few differences/inconsistancies).

Mohammed Ali

Edited by mohammedali, 16 July 2006 - 06:47 AM.


#55 Fyxe

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 08:12 AM

Which means that the Ocarina of Time Hylian, which is debated about wether it even exists or is just a coincidence, is the Ancient Language that is spoken of.


No, because the words that the Deku Tree speak are the so-called 'modern Hylian' that all the signs are made of. OoT text doesn't appear in TWW, even when they speak ancient Hylian. Ancient Hylian in TWW is exactly the same as all the other Hylian in the game.

Yes, this doesn't make sense. But it's a game design issue. It's not meant to make sense. It's just a bit of stuff for the fans to mess about translating. Basing a game's placement in the timeline because of what Hylian is used isn't sensible.

#56 Reflectionist

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 11:29 AM

No, because the words that the Deku Tree speak are the so-called 'modern Hylian' that all the signs are made of. OoT text doesn't appear in TWW, even when they speak ancient Hylian. Ancient Hylian in TWW is exactly the same as all the other Hylian in the game.

Yes, this doesn't make sense. But it's a game design issue. It's not meant to make sense. It's just a bit of stuff for the fans to mess about translating. Basing a game's placement in the timeline because of what Hylian is used isn't sensible.



No, it isn't. It is just random characters that are repeated that have no resemblance to the Wind Waker Hylian, OR the Ocarina of Time Hylian. That is a game design thing.

Edited by Reflectionist, 16 July 2006 - 11:32 AM.


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Posted 16 July 2006 - 11:38 AM

We currently have 2 types of Hylian, that which we see in OoT, and that which we see in WW.


Don't forget the ALTTP hylian.

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 02:23 PM

That doesn't make sense. How could the Deku Tree, Valoo, and Jabun speak a 'dead' language thats on every sign and poster in the game?

That's one of my biggest deals. It's just an error that the developers didn't realize. If TWW were made after Twilight Princess (which would really get us all angry), then I'm sure the Great Deku Tree and the other deities would speak TP Hylian, whereas the people of the Great Sea would use Modern Hylian.

#59 Arturo

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 02:36 PM

That's one of my biggest deals. It's just an error that the developers didn't realize. If TWW were made after Twilight Princess (which would really get us all angry), then I'm sure the Great Deku Tree and the other deities would speak TP Hylian, whereas the people of the Great Sea would use Modern Hylian.


Well, this inconsistency can be resolved by simply making a small assumption. Though writing is the same, it doesn't sound similar at all. This is not as difficult as it may seem at first, since the spoken language tend to change faster than the written one. And TWW Hylian is not modern Hylian. Is the standard form of Hylian, TP will use it and
Spoiler : click to show/hide
it's a few decades after OoT
. Moreover, using your logic, ALttP Hylian, where does it go? They are a bunch of modified Egyptian Hieroglyphs, nothing more. Writing doesn't mean anything. There are other proofs to situate TMC: Link's hat and the only game where people have knowledge of Minish, and that's the only game where the Triforce is named Light Force (don't try to argue about it, the Light Force is too powerful to be something else). And it's definetely before FS and FSA.

#60 Fyxe

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 02:45 PM

No, it isn't. It is just random characters that are repeated that have no resemblance to the Wind Waker Hylian, OR the Ocarina of Time Hylian. That is a game design thing.


...Uh, you've lost me there.

Artuno, that's a big assumption to make. I can't imagine how that would happen, actually.




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