409 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

Guides are not canon so the names in them can not be taken as canon.

Sorry, wrong. Names of monsters etc. in official guides are 99% canon, excepting the occasional mistake. The Super Metroid guide, for instance, names every single enemy with it's official name. Without it, we would not know the names of the monsters. The Japanese guides are even more canon when it comes to the names. They are OFFICIAL guides, you know. I think we can trust they at least get the bloody names correct.

Where do you think the names for the bosses in ALttP came from, anyway?

I would have no problem with Link killing Nabooru if she was trying to kill him.

She was trying to kill him. He didn't kill her.

I'm sorry, Link just doesn't go around slaughting hoards of Hyruleans. Don't buy that in the slightest. He's a child in most games, he's not a mass murderer.

*Imagines a hoard of Hyruleans going up to Link and saying 'you killed my son/brother/father!!'*

...I don't reeeeeeeeally see that happening. At all.

Edited by Fyxe, 06 August 2006 - 02:02 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

I did not say that I wanted Link to kill Nabooru, I only meant that if Link had killed her I would not get upset over it.

It is not mass murder if Link is protecting himself. Plus all those people Link kills want to stop him from killing the greater evil that threatens hyrule. How is that not reasonable for Link to kill them?

Link was able to wish them back to life anyway.

Edited by The Zol, 06 August 2006 - 02:13 PM.

[Fyxe]

It's just not something a kid like Link is likely to do. The ONLY 'humans' Link has been seen killing is Ganondorf and Darknuts, Ganondorf who's partly a demon anyway, and Darknuts, who are barely human no matter how you swing it. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that Link is not the type to kill that many people even if it is self defense. He's a hero. Not a one man assassin.

[MikePetersSucks]

If Link can spare a life, he'll do it, even if it compromises his own safety.

[Hero of Slime]

who are barely human no matter how you swing it.

The soldiers are not less human because they serve Ganon.

Link kills many other races in self defence. If it is for the greater good, I see no reason why he would not kill humans. I am not saying he is a merciless killer. I know he will always try to not use leathal force against other people (like fighting the Gerudo and Labrynnian guards).

[Jumbie]

And what do you think the soldiers in ALttP and FSA are? They're Darknuts.

I wouldn't equate the normal soldiers with Darknuts, but I have always dubbed those special soldiers who have a totally different helmet (e.g. the bomb throwers) Darknuts. Some of them also run around with a sword. And the ball'n'chain swingers in their silver or golden armour would logically be Iron Knuckles.

...WAY to miss my point. I was saying it was surprising the DESIGNERS had Link fighting standard humans, and it's NOT surprising that he didn't kill them.

Well, your point was absolutely not apparent from your wording and context.

What, wandering around with spears throwing men in dungeons? Completely peaceful.

I was referring to when Link has already acquired the Gerudo ID. He's now a Gerudo himself, a state which has to be totally different from being made a part of Ganon's army, don't you think?

The soldiers in ALttP were human soldiers that had become Darknuts. Hell, most of them probably weren't humans in the first place.

But what became of those humans then, if you insist on that the actual enemies are Darknuts? If they haven't disappeared somewhere, they have only changed forms, as which Link would still be killing ex-humans.

What does Gerudo morality have to do with the perfect split timeline?

Nothing of course, did we ever say that? But you're right, we should finally quit it.

In KnS, which uses the same engine, they don't appear at all (well, for obvious storyline reasons) showing that they didn't necessarily need to have so many of them.

It would interest me how Hyrule Castle is involved in KnS' plot - probably not a dungeon anymore, right?

FSA plays on this even more, by having massive, massive numbers of them. I just don't buy the idea of Link slaughtering huge hoards of poor brainwashed soldiers.

What you say sure makes most sense. Moreover, all three comics/manga of ALttP depicted the soldiers as hollow armours filled with black magic. The only thing which made me unsure is the quotes of the still normal soldiers at the beginning of ALttP. Agahnim brought the castle soldiers under his control - doesn't that contradict the other view? Also, the real soldiers must have gone somewhere. And remember the pic in the credits, where the King is shown surrounded by soldiers with very different, human faces?

[SOAP]

This whole thing with Gerudo morality is probably my fault. I think we can at least agree to move on so let's do that.

[Fyxe]

I wouldn't equate the normal soldiers with Darknuts, but I have always dubbed those special soldiers who have a totally different helmet (e.g. the bomb throwers) Darknuts. Some of them also run around with a sword. And the ball'n'chain swingers in their silver or golden armour would logically be Iron Knuckles.

Just to note, cos I know more than most about the various monsters in the series... The Ball and Chain Trooper is called just that. Ball and Chain Trooper. It's in the manual so there's no disputing that. The Ball and Chain Trooper is obviously a Darknut-type foe but it's a reused enemy and certainly isn't an Iron Knuckle. Iron Knuckles have never used ball and chains.

The other 'Trooper' enemies just seem to be variations on the Darknut, and they are seen with swords as well as spears and bombs. The horned helmets returned for all types of Darknut in LA and the Oracle games.

Iron Knuckles and Darknuts have virtually the same name in Japanese, implying a close 'relation'. They're almost exactly the same enemies.

Well, your point was absolutely not apparent from your wording and context.

Wording, maybe not, maybe I could of made it slightly more obvious, but the context was fine.

I was referring to when Link has already acquired the Gerudo ID. He's now a Gerudo himself, a state which has to be totally different from being made a part of Ganon's army, don't you think?

Well, yes, since Ganon's 'army' is generally made up of monsters.

But what became of those humans then, if you insist on that the actual enemies are Darknuts? If they haven't disappeared somewhere, they have only changed forms, as which Link would still be killing ex-humans.

Yes. Ex-humans, of sorts. We can assume Stalfos and ReDeads are ex-humans too. Basically there's nothing Link can really do for them, because they're monsters and completely under the control of Agahnim. Essentially, they're dead already. This is different from what happened to Nabooru, where she could be saved.

It would interest me how Hyrule Castle is involved in KnS' plot - probably not a dungeon anymore, right?

No. At first it is blocked off by either stones or by soldiers (looking like they do in the ending sequence of ALttP, rather than the Darknutty armour) but on the second week, after saving Zelda from Octoroks in the first week, you can enter the castle and speak to the king and to a character I assume is Impa or someone like her. I have no idea what they say though. Most of the castle is still blocked off by a few soldiers, however.

The only thing which made me unsure is the quotes of the still normal soldiers at the beginning of ALttP. Agahnim brought the castle soldiers under his control - doesn't that contradict the other view?

I don't see why. The soldiers wear so much armour it would be impossible for the remaining human soldiers to be able to tell that their companions had become monsters, all they would realise was that they were now blindly following the orders of Agahnim.

Also, the real soldiers must have gone somewhere. And remember the pic in the credits, where the King is shown surrounded by soldiers with very different, human faces?

Like I said, all the soldiers were eventually turned in Darknuts, and a lot more were presumably created by Agahnim's magic to make up for the ones Link strikes down, or to simply bolster numbers. Hyrule has never shown to have a gigantic army, yet Agahnim creates one. Hell, the more Link seems to kill, the more that seem to appear. As for the soldiers at the end, I presume the batch of soldiers that Agahnim changed into monsters were then returned back to normal, and they were then rid of the Darknut armour they were made to wear by Agahnim (that he presumably made them wear to disguise the fact that they were no longer human to the general populace).

As I mentioned, all the soldiers in KnS have the modified armour (or presumably the original soldier armour before Agahnim took over) shown in the ending sequence.

Edited by Fyxe, 07 August 2006 - 06:33 AM.

[Hero of Slime]

Fyxe, did you read that out of the guide or just make it up? I see no reason to beileve that the soldiers changed form under their armor or that the wizard was creating new soldiers out of nothing. It's true Hyrule has never shown a great army, but that does not mean it does not have one. I would assume that such a powerful nation would have a large army.

And quit using the term Darknuts for the soldiers of ALttP, you have no canon evidence that it is their name.

[Jumbie]

Just to note, cos I know more than most about the various monsters in the series...

Hey, careful here - all one has to do to get a good monster comprehension is study ZL's bestiary in-depth, which I did.

The Ball and Chain Trooper is called just that. Ball and Chain Trooper. It's in the manual so there's no disputing that.

Admittedly, I've never given a damn about always being accurate with the official monster names in Zelda. You know, I grew up playing Zelda with German screentext, so I'm fond of different monster names, which surprisingly sound more atmospheric than the English ones. For example, Bubbles are called like "Red Death" or "Blue Death", and the Dead Hand is called something like "Giant Brainsucker".
Because of this, and also because they often change the name of one and the same creature depending on the games anyway (e.g. Bubble aka Anti Fairy aka Whisp aka Spark), I see no reason to strictly call the Ball'n'Chain Troopers like that; instead they are mace-wielding Iron Knuckles to me.

The Ball and Chain Trooper is obviously a Darknut-type foe but it's a reused enemy and certainly isn't an Iron Knuckle. Iron Knuckles have never used ball and chains.

The Iron Knuckle is a Darknut-type foe just the same, obviously! Your cue: AoL. In this game Link fights the exact same Darknuts as before in LoZ, only their official name is Iron Knuckle. Thus, they're all a big family.
And yes have Iron Knuckles used ball and chains: Onox! He wears an Iron Knuckle armour similar to OoT. Just like Nabooru was put into an iron armour and thus became an Iron Knuckle, I don't see why Onox couldn't be the dark general AND one very important Iron Knuckle at the same time.
A mere exchange of weapons, if it's now an axe or a ball and chains, really doesn't decide that it's not an Iron Knuckle anymore.

The other 'Trooper' enemies just seem to be variations on the Darknut, and they are seen with swords as well as spears and bombs. The horned helmets returned for all types of Darknut in LA and the Oracle games.

Iron Knuckles and Darknuts have virtually the same name in Japanese, implying a close 'relation'. They're almost exactly the same enemies.

Um yes, that's exactly what I thought I had to explain.. So, am I seeing a little contradiction in your statements, or what?!

Yes. Ex-humans, of sorts. We can assume Stalfos and ReDeads are ex-humans too. Basically there's nothing Link can really do for them, because they're monsters and completely under the control of Agahnim. Essentially, they're dead already. This is different from what happened to Nabooru, where she could be saved.

Great, I just found out we've agreed all the time.. I've never thought of Agahnim's soldiers as retaining their human shape, but being monsterized ex-humans. But no matter in which form, some of them were once human, and now Link ends their lives. Killah!!
Joking aside, the Triforce wish restores all those soldiers which were human back to what they were.

No. At first it is blocked off by either stones or by soldiers (looking like they do in the ending sequence of ALttP, rather than the Darknutty armour) but on the second week, after saving Zelda from Octoroks in the first week, you can enter the castle and speak to the king and to a character I assume is Impa or someone like her. I have no idea what they say though. Most of the castle is still blocked off by a few soldiers, however.

Wow, that's really interesting! Good that I never fully disputed KnS its canonicity...
I've heard of that Impa-like character before, but unfortunately I couldn't find a screenshot of her

This whole thing with Gerudo morality is probably my fault. I think we can at least agree to move on so let's do that.

Alright. To begin with, at least this post here and Fyxe's last post aren't dealing with Gerudo anymore, so the prospects are good...

Edited by Jumbie, 07 August 2006 - 01:40 PM.

[Fyxe]

Hey, careful here - all one has to do to get a good monster comprehension is study ZL's bestiary in-depth, which I did.

*Cough* Rubbish. There are errors in the monster list on ZL. It's not complete or perfect by any means.

(e.g. Bubble aka Anti Fairy aka Whisp aka Spark),

Spark is something else entirely, Anti-Fairy is a stupid name devised in the LA guide (which has quite a few innaccuracies), and Whisp is a name to differenciate between the two types of Bubble in the Oracle game. Bubble is the official name of all the types.

I see no reason to strictly call the Ball'n'Chain Troopers like that; instead they are mace-wielding Iron Knuckles to me.

I'm going by the manual name, a name that has been reused since. Iron Knuckles don't even appear in ALttP.

The Iron Knuckle is a Darknut-type foe just the same, obviously! Your cue: AoL. In this game Link fights the exact same Darknuts as before in LoZ, only their official name is Iron Knuckle. Thus, they're all a big family.

Yes, that's true, I said this. But there's still a difference. It's vague, but its there.

And yes have Iron Knuckles used ball and chains: Onox! He wears an Iron Knuckle armour similar to OoT.

Onox is a HOMAGE to the soldiers (Darknuts AND Iron Knuckles) in the rest of the series, but he's not an Iron Knuckle.

A mere exchange of weapons, if it's now an axe or a ball and chains, really doesn't decide that it's not an Iron Knuckle anymore.

True, Iron Knuckles have used axes (OoT) and swords (AoL). But the official name of the other foes isn't Iron Knuckle.

Um yes, that's exactly what I thought I had to explain.. So, am I seeing a little contradiction in your statements, or what?!

No, you're just missing some of my intended points.

Great, I just found out we've agreed all the time.. I've never thought of Agahnim's soldiers as retaining their human shape, but being monsterized ex-humans. But no matter in which form, some of them were once human, and now Link ends their lives. Killah!!

Again, it's not the same as Nabooru, that's a case of a brainwashed humans that could be saved. Darknuts are transformed humans who are based mostly around the armour. There's not much human left in them. They're already dead, and Link can't save them.

Fyxe, did you read that out of the guide or just make it up? I see no reason to beileve that the soldiers changed form under their armor or that the wizard was creating new soldiers out of nothing.

I'm basing this on the genssis of the monster known as Darknut. Darknuts are monsters. The soldiers in ALttP are intended to be at least derivative of those monsters. There are clearly far too many for them to all be human. They die like every other monster. Therefore, Link is fighting monsters, more than simply brainwashed humans.

It's true Hyrule has never shown a great army, but that does not mean it does not have one. I would assume that such a powerful nation would have a large army.

Who the hell says it's powerful? It's a pretty peaceful and quiet nation, actually, and probably has a comparitively small army. In all occasions other than ALttP, we have seen very few soldiers.

And quit using the term Darknuts for the soldiers of ALttP, you have no canon evidence that it is their name.

It's call logic. The soldiers in LA and the Oracle games are Darknuts in all the Japanese official guides. These are 99.9% the same foe as in ALttP. Not only that, but the armour of all the soldiers shows many connections to that of Darknuts. AND the soldiers in FSA have the same voices as the Darknuts in TWW. And there are far, far too many of them for them just to be human.

Conclusion = monster. Conclusion = Darknut.

Edited by Fyxe, 07 August 2006 - 05:48 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

A peaceful nation would have to have a large army to keep the peace. Again just because the soldiers arn't seen, does not mean thay are not there.

The fact that they explode when they die is just to keep the game rated E and corpses of the ground. There is no physical reason that they would explode and there is no biological reason that they would be called monsters.

The fact that there are a lot of them is also a game play function.

So stop the fan****ing and saying that they are created out nothing and that you some how know what they look like under thier armor.

[Fyxe]

The fact that enemy soldiers that look like Darknuts aren't Darknuts is more fanFUCKing than anything.

They're Darknuts, they're just obviously Darknuts. Even without the evidence it's a bloody obvious connection.
Are you also claiming that the Goombas in SMB3 are actually regular Toads in disguise?

[Hero of Slime]

I think that it is "bloody" obvious that those guys are humans who were humans who were converted by the Wizard. The game even says so. They are human and are not a different race. They might look like Darknuts but are not Darknuts. Just like Bots look like Zols, they are still two completely different species.

Why would I make any claims about a mario game? This is Zelda we are talking about.

[Jumbie]

Iron Knuckles don't even appear in ALttP.
But there's still a difference. It's vague, but its there.

Ah-hah.. So Iron Knuckles can't be Darknuts, but the ALttP soldiers have to be Darknuts although their armours have nothing in common but the fact that they're made of metal? Sorry, but there's contradiction in your arguing.

Onox is a HOMAGE to the soldiers (Darknuts AND Iron Knuckles) in the rest of the series, but he's not an Iron Knuckle.

Why not? Nabooru was also an Iron Knuckle, for seven long years (not saying she changed her shape, but still the name Iron Knuckle applied to her).

True, Iron Knuckles have used axes (OoT) and swords (AoL). But the official name of the other foes isn't Iron Knuckle.

As said, I can't be bothered to rely on official enemy names if they are just plain inappropriate and interchangeable.

They are human and are not a different race. They might look like Darknuts but are not Darknuts. Just like Bots look like Zols, they are still two completely different species.

Hm, I personally make no distinction between Bits, Bots, Zols, Gels and ChuChus. They're all just slimy blobs. But I do differentiate between soldiers and Darknuts, since the first can often be slayn by one hit whereas the latter are huge knights skilled in swordfighting. Nevertheless, I think they are of the same enemy type, monstrous creations wearing armour.

The ALttP comic doesn't clearly say if the soldiers are monsters or humans, but they disintegrate into explosions just like in the game.

The first ALttP manga by Kajiba shows the castle soldiers as normal humans who are neither transformed nor brainwashed, just following Agahnim's orders. But this depiction is only possible as not a single one of them is killed during the manga.

The second ALttP manga by Himekawa however makes it clear:

It died?! It vanished. That soldier was just darkness clothed in armour by the magic of Agahnim... It is not human.

At the same time, it shows castle guards which are still alive, having fled to the cathedral.

I think it's best to believe the second manga.

Edited by Jumbie, 07 August 2006 - 08:18 PM.

[Fyxe]

Ah-hah.. So Iron Knuckles can't be Darknuts, but the ALttP soldiers have to be Darknuts although their armours have nothing in common but the fact that they're made of metal? Sorry, but there's contradiction in your arguing.

Their armour has quite a bit in common, actually. The ones in the palace wear the famous capes (and even behave like TLoZ Darknuts in their movement) and most carry shields. They have glowing eyes and the 'trooper' varients have helmets that look virtually identical to traditional Darknut helmets.

As for Iron Knuckles, you have to make a distinction at some point otherwise the two names would be meaningless. The soldiers in ALttP look and act extremely similar to the Darknuts in LA, therefore we'll call them Darknuts and not Iron Knuckles. Iron Knuckles tend to be more skilled and durable, anyway.

As said, I can't be bothered to rely on official enemy names if they are just plain inappropriate and interchangeable.

Innappropriate? How are any of the names inappropriate? Occasionally the names are a little interchangable but it's not as bad as you're making out. It's more to do with the fact that enemies are related to other foes.

Hm, I personally make no distinction between Bits, Bots, Zols, Gels and ChuChus. They're all just slimy blobs.

They're all fairly different, actually. Bits and Bots are just standard blobs that can jump, Zols are usually pear-shaped and they split into Gels when killed. ChuChus are a fair bit different.
Yes, they all basically play the same role and share many similarities, but they're not the same blob.

But I do differentiate between soldiers and Darknuts, since the first can often be slayn by one hit whereas the latter are huge knights skilled in swordfighting.

Actually, by the time you get the best sword in TLoZ, the regular Darknuts can be slain with one hit, I believe. And you can only kill the Darknuts in ALttP in one hit with a Spin Attack or the Master Sword, so they're not *that* flimsy. In fact, when you consider how many hits some of the ones with better armour take, they're far more durable than most other enemies in the game.

You're basing your knowledge of Darknuts on TWW (huge knights skilled (not sure about that) in swordfighting), which actually borrowed much from the Iron Knuckles in OoT than the old Darknuts. However, the Darknuts in TLoZ were fairly stupid and not huge at all, and this is what the soldiers in ALttP were based on. Why do you think they made it so your sword would bounce off their blades? To make it harder to fight them head-on, like the old Darknuts. Obviously, because they're much more common, they made them a bit weaker but they made them more intelligent to show off a bit of realism.

Edited by Fyxe, 08 August 2006 - 06:41 AM.

[Doopliss]

It's obvious that Dark Nuts aren't human, their face doesn't resemble at all a human face. Actually, I think that they are a different kind of Moblins who are highly skilled at fighting. About the soldiers of ALttP, I think that they are normal humans who are being controlled by Agahnim. I see no reason to think that they have stopped being humans. I don't see any problem with Link killing humans. Who says it's less moral to kill humans than monsters? Some monsters seem to be intelligent as well, so I don't see how they can have less rights for not being humans.

Fyxe, did you read that out of the guide or just make it up? I see no reason to beileve that the soldiers changed form under their armor or that the wizard was creating new soldiers out of nothing. It's true Hyrule has never shown a great army, but that does not mean it does not have one. I would assume that such a powerful nation would have a large army.

I don't think Hyrules is actually a big nation. It usually doesn't have more than 2-3 towns and the capital has less than 100 inhabitants!

[Fyxe]

Doopliss, Link kills about... A thousand soldiers in FSA. He goes around and kills about a hundred or so in ALttP. I'm sorry, but I don't think little kid Link would go around slaughting brainwashed people without some kind of 'hey, maybe I shouldn't be murdering all these people, it's not their fault they're brainwashed'.

Zelda is NOT that sort of game. Virtually nobody dies in Zelda games. It's not about death and destruction. It's about a hero taking out the forces of evil, not murdering 99% of the (brainwashed) population of Hyrule for the sake of some greater good.

Besides, I simply don't think they could all be normal humans. There's just FAR. Too. Many.

I'm not going to keep arguing, if some of you guys want to believe that the Zelda games are some dark tale about a lone warrior fighting and slaughtering brainwashed innocents to survive, then go ahead. It's not. It's a kid fighting an evil wizard and an big nasty demon.

If Link is actually killing hundreds of innocent people, then wouldn't more people in Kakariko be more inclined, to, y'know, hate his guts? As it is, two or three people think he's just a villian who kidnapped Zelda. If Link really was killing actual soldiers, wouldn't the rest of Kakariko be a tad concerned that Link was killing their sons and brothers and fathers?

[Doopliss]

I don't enjoy watching violence at all, and I consider it disturbing, but I can't deny it existsand I don't think we should ignore it. I think I understand fairly well what Zelda is about, and I don't like that Link has to kill sometimes intelligent beings, but we can't hide the fact that he does does it sometimes. However, he isn't a reckless murderer. He just kills when his life is in danger. I would prefer that the soldiers of ALttP weren't humans, but it seems like at least some of them are. As for FSA, I think that they aren't humans, maybe they are like Shadow Links.

[Hero of Slime]

I think the people of Hyrule would understand that their relavtives had been taken over by an evil and Link had to kill them in order to save everyone. Plus he just wished them back with the Triforce.

I don't think Hyrules is actually a big nation. It usually doesn't have more than 2-3 towns and the capital has less than 100 inhabitants!

Look at how much of Hyrule is shown in AoL, there are seven towns. Hyrule is a big place, but not all of it is shown in every game.

[Doopliss]

Oh! That's true, I was forgetting about ALttP.

[Jumbie]

It's obvious that Dark Nuts aren't human, their face doesn't resemble at all a human face. Actually, I think that they are a different kind of Moblins who are highly skilled at fighting.

Correct. TWW revealed that Darknuts look like doberman dogs. We have no reason to assume they looked different under their helmets in previous games. They could either be related to the wolf-like Goriyas, or to the Moblins (in older games Moblins didn't come as pigs, but as bulldogs).

About the soldiers of ALttP, I think that they are normal humans who are being controlled by Agahnim. I see no reason to think that they have stopped being humans.

I would prefer that the soldiers of ALttP weren't humans, but it seems like at least some of them are. As for FSA, I think that they aren't humans, maybe they are like Shadow Links.

The reason is black magic, obviously. If the soldiers are demons in FSA, then they have to be the same in ALttP because their sprites are identic. Well, sprites don't say too much, but look at this official artwork of castle soldiers:

There's really nothing human-like in them anymore. You can imagine the ALttP soldiers being represented by the exact same artwork. The nature of the evil soldiers is exactly the same in both games - an empty armour filled with black magic. That's unlike the Darknuts, however, since they are proven to be animal-based monsters. For the Iron Knuckles, either black magic or monster inside could fit.

Again, read the three ALttP comics/manga over at ZL. All three go with a different theory about the soldiers, but in the manga which says they're still humans, Link doesn't kill any of them, so this theory is baseless.

I think the people of Hyrule would understand that their relavtives had been taken over by an evil and Link had to kill them in order to save everyone. Plus he just wished them back with the Triforce.

Oh really?! Now this takes on too many Dragonball-esque features for my taste - "Oh, they've been killed? Never mind, let's just bring them back to life with the Triforce!"
Sure, it's a fact that Link's wish revives all the people who were killed during Agahnim's rule, but I don't like this acclimatization to this practise. (With Ganon it's something different, that is attempted by evil persons)

Whatever, haven't we all had enough of it now? Time to get back on topic. Some pages ago, I had asked a question,

Honestly, what has all of that to do with FSA's place in the timeline.
To those who believe ALttP>FSA, I'd still like to hear your opinion on where OoX fits in.

The Zol was the only one who replied,

Between FSA and AoL's backstory.
my single timeline in my sig. has no relevance to this topic.
If I did a timeline now I would place FS and FSA after ALttP.

So come on now, your own views, please! We have to (try to) work this out, finally!

[Fyxe]

Link had no idea he would ever get the chance to wish anyone back. Even if he did kill Ganon he presumably had no idea he would be granted use of the Triforce. He has no reason to kill innocents, and Link isn't the type.

Doopliss, I'm not trying to deny that there's violence. I am an avid player of a Nintendo series where fairly innocent people die in the course of battle - Fire Emblem. The difference with that series is that you're controlling an army going into war, and that the humans that you do take down are given emotions, motives and personalities, and the characters you play as regularly question their motives and face the results of their actions.

The Zelda games however are, other than TWW where Ganon is given an almost sympathetic role at times, very black and white. The heros are heros, the villians are evil monsters. Innocents are often saved from torment, and Link fights for justice, and will not kill humans if he doesn't have to.

Anyway.

I personally see FSA as having to occur after ALttP. Ganon, the demon, is seemingly dead or imprisoned in the trident. During ALttP, the Four Sword is in the Dark World and split into four, meaning Vaati cannot be imprisoned in it at the time. Before OoT, Ganon is in the Sacred Realm. He isn't released until ALttP. Therefore, FSA cannot come inbetween OoT and ALttP.

Edited by Fyxe, 08 August 2006 - 05:57 PM.

[Arturo]

*Appears from the shadows*

I like having it after OoX and Sleeping Zelda, because making the assumption that the other two pieces of the Triforce were hidden inside of the castle (as hinted in FSA) we can explain why Ganon doesn't attempt to get the Triforce in FSA. Because it has been forgotten....

It also connects well with Ganon's character in OoX and in FSA, as said by Jumbie long ago...

Bye, it has been nice to meet you!

*Hides in the shadows of incommunication*

[MikePetersSucks]

making the assumption that the other two pieces of the Triforce were hidden inside of the castle (as hinted in FSA)

By what? A plaque on the wall that happens to glow when everything fades to black?

[Jumbie]

By what? A plaque on the wall that happens to glow when everything fades to black?

Yes, that. It's not a big stretch to assume that means *something*. As for what, everyone has to decide for themselves, but you cannot think the Triforce is not in Hyrule when that's the only scene in the whole game where the Triforce symbol is shown in some form.

[Doopliss]

I don't think that the whole Triforce can be inside the castle becuase otherwise the Dark World would be the Sacred Realm. It is possible that Ganon stole the Triforce of Power before FSA, but it isn't likely to be that way because he was reborn. He would have lost the Triforce when he died. Nevertheless, I reckon that the Triforce is split because of the Darl World, so maybe the Sleeping Zelda story takes place before FSA.

[Fyxe]

Doopliss, what has the location and whether the Triforce is split or not have to do with the existence of the Dark World? Hell, if anything, why would the Dark World be the Sacred Realm if the Triforce was no longer there?

[Doopliss]

The state of the Sacred Realm depends on who has touched the Triforce for the last time, doesn't it? If the whole Triforce was in the castle, that would mean that someone good had touched it, and the Sacred Realm wouldn't be dark. At the end of ALttP the Essence of the Triforce tells Link that the Dark World will surely be destroyed, as when the Sacred Realm went dark because Ganon touched the Triforce before the IW. That's why I think that the Triforce is split in FSA. A good way to explain it is that the Sleeping Zelda story takes place before FSA, and then Ganon could steal the Triforce of Power as it is stated in LoZ backsotry.

[Arturo]

The state of the Sacred Realm depends on who has touched the Triforce for the last time, doesn't it? If the whole Triforce was in the castle, that would mean that someone good had touched it, and the Sacred Realm wouldn't be dark. At the end of ALttP the Essence of the Triforce tells Link that the Dark World will surely be destroyed, as when the Sacred Realm went dark because Ganon touched the Triforce before the IW. That's why I think that the Triforce is split in FSA. A good way to explain it is that the Sleeping Zelda story takes place before FSA, and then Ganon could steal the Triforce of Power as it is stated in LoZ backsotry.

Just a little thing: Dark World is not evil in FSA, it even has less monsters than Hyrule. I think it's not the whole Triforce in the Castle but just Power and Wisdom. MPS said that the Dark World of FSA might be something totally diffrent from the one of ALttP, a creation of the Trident of Power.