409 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

Not that again. Dude, there's no evidence that FSA Dark World is a seperate realm from ALttP dark world. It could be a less powerful Dark World, but it's never hinted that this a separate Dark World, and it certianly was never hinted to be created by the Trident of Power. The only connection it has with the ToP is that the trident sends people to Dark World. But so do the Moon Pearls and arguably the Four Sword. There's less monsters in it yes, but that's because the fight was in the real Hyrule with Vaati kidnapping the maidens while Ganondorf worked behind the scenes.

[Arturo]

I didn't say ALttP Dark World and FSA Dark World are different. But that they MIGHT be. I just pointed out that the Dark World isn't that dark, so maybe it's the restored DW that hasn't got a name change. Or something like that.

[MikePetersSucks]

Not that again. Dude, there's no evidence that FSA Dark World is a seperate realm from ALttP dark world.

And how it has totally different properties.

[Fyxe]

Totally different? Hardly.

[Jumbie]

That's why I think that the Triforce is split in FSA. A good way to explain it is that the Sleeping Zelda story takes place before FSA, and then Ganon could steal the Triforce of Power as it is stated in LoZ backsotry.

Yes, that's also what Arturo often proposed. I have it like that in my timeline too.

MPS said that the Dark World of FSA might be something totally diffrent from the one of ALttP, a creation of the Trident of Power.

I recall that we talked about the Dark Mirror possibly containing FSA's Dark World in itself. That, however, doesn't say it isn't a parallel dimension of Hyrule. What could have happened is that the Dark Mirror, in which the Dark Tribe was sealed, served as the exit for all the monsters that roam Hyrule in FSA - so that the Dark World was essentially sealed away in the Magic Mirror Link used in ALttP... But no, I don't believe it. I think FSA implies that the Deku Scrubs, members of the Dark Tribe, were around already before Ganon stole the Dark Mirror. Furthermore, it says he used it to create Shadow Link, not much else is said..

[Fyxe]

Who says the Dekus were members of the 'dark tribe' mentioned? They just follow Ganon. We don't even know if the tribe in the mirror ever followed Ganon (although there's a good chance they did, but still).

Ganon uses the power of the mirror (or rather, the power of the tribe) to create an army of Shadow Links. Not sure how much that tells us about anything really. The mirror is said to reflect the evil in a person. All Vaati/Ganon did was set Link's evil side free somehow.

[Doopliss]

Not that again. Dude, there's no evidence that FSA Dark World is a seperate realm from ALttP dark world. It could be a less powerful Dark World, but it's never hinted that this a separate Dark World, and it certianly was never hinted to be created by the Trident of Power. The only connection it has with the ToP is that the trident sends people to Dark World. But so do the Moon Pearls and arguably the Four Sword. There's less monsters in it yes, but that's because the fight was in the real Hyrule with Vaati kidnapping the maidens while Ganondorf worked behind the scenes.

Thanks.

Aturo, I said dark, not evil. I know that it isn't as the Dark World of ALttP, but it isn't the Sacred Realm, so that means that the Triforce isn't whole in the castle, if it is there.

[Jumbie]

Aturo, I said dark, not evil. I know that it isn't as the Dark World of ALttP, but it isn't the Sacred Realm, so that means that the Triforce isn't whole in the castle, if it is there.

I think Arturo just proposed that as a possibility, he doesn't actually believe it himself (I hope..). So it seems many of us take ALttP's and FSA's Dark Worlds to exist in the same dimension more or less.
That the Triforce is not united in the castle but split because of the Sleeping Zelda events, is what you, I and Arturo think.

Something else: How come nobody brings in the events of KnS as evidence here? I mean, in that game Ganon is alive in the restored (or never changed) Dark World, which would solve all the problems why the DW seems to exist in all the games that follow, in particular Oracles, FSA and AoL...

[SOAP]

If you're going to use KnS as evidence I'll be more willing to accept FSA follows ALttP.

[coinilius]

Something else: How come nobody brings in the events of KnS as evidence here? I mean, in that game Ganon is alive in the restored (or never changed) Dark World, which would solve all the problems why the DW seems to exist in all the games that follow, in particular Oracles, FSA and AoL...

Bringing KnS into the mix doesn't really help all that much, though, as it ends the same way ALttP did with Ganon being killed again.

[Fyxe]

Don't forget there's the extra ending to ALttP on the GBA.

[Hero of Slime]

Since when are there Genetics that make one a Knight? The Hyrulean Royalty could always find some new guys to be knights. They would not be descendants of the knights who fought in the IW but they would still be knights.

[Arturo]

ALttP Link, as the last of knights, could have children.... itr's not that difficult.


BTW, Fyxe, could you tell me how the new ending goes? I haven't had the opportunity of playing FS, so that ending is impossible for me to see...

[Jumbie]

If you're going to use KnS as evidence I'll be more willing to accept FSA follows ALttP.

Why shouldn't we accept KnS as evidence? I mean, it's not contradicting any other games, on the contrary, it's playing into our hands:
- It disproves the infamous line "And the Master Sword sleeps again... forever" as well as the common misbelief that only Link can wield the MS, as the foreign hero is happily drawing and using the blade.
- It proves that the Dark World didn't ever vanish after ALttP.

Bringing KnS into the mix doesn't really help all that much, though, as it ends the same way ALttP did with Ganon being killed again.

Yes sure, Ganon is killed, which is good as that, because it sets the stage right for Oracles to happen long after KnS. Then, the death of Oracles' Ganon means that Ganondorf had to be reborn as a human in FSA. So, everything matches up also thanks to KnS!

It's impossible for ALttP to take place after FSA.

Lol, it's great to hear that from you So you finally accept it.. I'll mark those words!

Edited by Jumbie, 14 August 2006 - 03:47 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

- It disproves the infamous line "And the Master Sword sleeps again... forever" as well as the common misbelief that only Link can wield the MS, as the foreign hero is happily drawing and using the blade.

The first one, sure. The second one, not so much.

AST was a special case where Nintendo bent the canon of Zelda series to implement one of the features of the BS system, namely to play as an avatar of yourself. That’s the reason you don’t as Link in the first place. Thus, the existence of the Hero of Light (Later used as a title for FSA Link) does not change the fact that only Link can wield the MS with the power to repel evil.

But to be on topic, could someone please explain exactly why FSA can't take place before ALttP? You see, I have yet to see any sort of tangible argument that doesn't boil down to bickering about less than important details in geography and names.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 14 August 2006 - 04:22 PM.

[Fyxe]

Because between OoT and ALttP, Ganon is sealed in the Dark World. The Ganon in FSA starts of as human and then becomes a demon 'reborn', meaning Ganon had to be dead beforehand.

Plus only Zelda recognises the name Ganon, while in ALttP knowledge of Ganon is fairly well known among those who study those things.

On the subject of KnS, when was the name 'Hero of Light' used in FSA? I must of missed that. But the Master Sword does appear to have the power to repel evil in KnS, as it allows entrance to Ganon's Tower and allows the hero to kill Ganon... But I must stress this...

Link is NOT the only person who can use the Master Sword to it's full potential. This is never ever said. The hero merely has to be worthy. And when you consider that all the Links are different people anyway...

Artuno, I direct you to this topic.
http://forums.legend...?showtopic=9343

[Jumbie]

AST was a special case where Nintendo bent the canon of Zelda series to implement one of the features of the BS system, namely to play as an avatar of yourself. That’s the reason you don’t as Link in the first place. Thus, the existence of the Hero of Light (Later used as a title for FSA Link) does not change the fact that only Link can wield the MS with the power to repel evil.

..Well, I won't waste my time commenting on that.

But to be on topic, could someone please explain exactly why FSA can't take place before ALttP?

We had that before, but alright..
First of all, the normal conclusion would be that FSA has to happen after ALttP because no game can destroy the OoT/ALttP connection (As we're in the Split thread, I may utter that).
In FSA, Ganon is completely unknown to have existed before, with the exception of Princess Zelda, as she's the only one with access to the legends of the Royal Family (or blame it on her prophetic abilities). In ALttP however, Ganon is widely known to have been imprisoned in the Dark World, still being there as the game begins. And we all know which game showed the imprisoning of Ganon in the DW: it was OoT, and not FSA!!!

Well actually, I can't come up with anything else right now, but I think that's more than enough anyway. No games can happen between OoT and ALttP, except maybe TMC in case it's not before OoT.

Edit: Oh I see Fyxe beat me to that... But well, hearing the same from two people should be even more convincing for you.

Edited by Jumbie, 14 August 2006 - 04:49 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Because between OoT and ALttP, Ganon is sealed in the Dark World. The Ganon in FSA starts of as human and then becomes a demon 'reborn', meaning Ganon had to be dead beforehand.

He died in TWW. And FYI, I would that game place before FSA whether there is a single timeline or not.

Plus only Zelda recognises the name Ganon, while in ALttP knowledge of Ganon is fairly well known among those who study those things.

FSA: It’s not very surprising considering only Link and Zelda knew about him in TWW, and I assume they are the ancestors of FSA Zelda, so she would be the one to know.

ALttP: Well, you'd think his attack on Hyrule in FSA would raise the Ganon-awareness-factor amongst the people, no?

On the subject of KnS, when was the name 'Hero of Light' used in FSA?

Play multiplayer. The one with the most force gems at the end of a stage becomes the Hero of Light.

But the Master Sword does appear to have the power to repel evil in KnS, as it allows entrance to Ganon's Tower and allows the hero to kill Ganon...

Again, that's only because AST features the player avatar instead of Link (Who's supposed to be an avatar anyway) But if you want another explanation I could just spurn out something like "Heroes from other dimensions abide by different rules" or some other crap.

Link is NOT the only person who can use the Master Sword to it's full potential. This is never ever said. The hero merely has to be worthy.

I assume that all Heroes are Links because, well, they have been so far.

And when you consider that all the Links are different people anyway...

That could be argued...

First of all, the normal conclusion would be that FSA has to happen after ALttP because no game can destroy the OoT/ALttP connection (As we're in the Split thread, I may utter that).

*Laughs* Oh, that's rich. Heheh...

What if I told you any game could destroy the OoT/ALttP connection? I know it could, if Nintendo wanted it to. And I have yet to see any conclusive proof of what Nintendo wants. Let's just leave it at that.

And we all know which game showed the imprisoning of Ganon in the DW: it was OoT, and not FSA!!!

The IW happened after FSA. Woop, fanfiction! But then, wouldn't that be exactly what you'd have to use to explain how Ganny got his hands on the other Triforce pieces after OoT?

BTW, my theory would actually work with the whole Palace of the Four Sword in ALttP thingy.

I read that thing about foreign heroes and the Master Sword. In order to wield the Master Sword, you must simply have the qualities of a Hero. That's why Zelda could hold the sword in TWW, because she is a Hero of sorts. There's nothing that says a foreign person that is considered a Hero can't wield the Master Sword.

It doesn't glow while she holds it. No glow = No Power to repel Evil = No Blade of Evil’s Bane = No wielding the Master Sword.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 14 August 2006 - 05:59 PM.

[coinilius]

Yes sure, Ganon is killed, which is good as that, because it sets the stage right for Oracles to happen long after KnS. Then, the death of Oracles' Ganon means that Ganondorf had to be reborn as a human in FSA. So, everything matches up also thanks to KnS!

But we don't know that it didn't vanish again after KnS though, as it was only back because of Ganon's use of the stone tablets.

[Fyxe]

He died in TWW. And FYI, I would that game place before FSA whether there is a single timeline or not.

This is a split timeline thread. Ganon dying in TWW does not have relevance.

FSA: It’s not very surprising considering only Link and Zelda knew about him in TWW, and I assume they are the ancestors of FSA Zelda, so she would be the one to know.

Again, split timeline thread. Nobody's placing ALttP after TWW here. That's a whole other pile of fish.

ALttP: Well, you'd think his attack on Hyrule in FSA would raise the Ganon-awareness-factor amongst the people, no?

...The knowledge of Ganon in ALttP is based SOLELY on the events of the Imprisoning War and OoT. They do not bare resemblance to the events of FSA. Why would everyone suddenly remember OoT just because the events of FSA occured? They wouldn't.

Play multiplayer. The one with the most force gems at the end of a stage becomes the Hero of Light.

I've played multiplayer, I still never saw the term 'Hero of Light'.

I assume that all Heroes are Links because, well, they have been so far.

All the ones we've seen in the games are. Just because we play as Link doesn't mean there can't be other heroes in Hyrule throughout the ages.

That could be argued...

No. No single Linkers allowed. Back to the looney bin for them.

The IW happened after FSA. Woop, fanfiction! But then, wouldn't that be exactly what you'd have to use to explain how Ganny got his hands on the other Triforce pieces after OoT?

There's a difference between 'filling in the gaps', and there are lots of gaps so this has to occur anyway, and 'making stuff up and ignoring stuff that's already happened for the convenience of your own timeline theory'. The gaps remain, we assume Ganon got the remaining Triforce pieces, it would be perfectly possible for him to do so, but there's no reason to make up a bit of fanfiction to explain it. He did somehow, that's all. It's not impossible for him to do so, so why the hell not?

BTW, my theory would actually work with the whole Palace of the Four Sword in ALttP thingy.

Most theories can work that in somehow as long as they place the Four Sword games in the right places.

It doesn't glow while she holds it. No glow = No Power to repel Evil = No Blade of Evil’s Bane = No wielding the Master Sword.

ACTUALLY, that glow represents Link's own power, Sahasrahlalashawafa states this. It's probably nothing to do with it having the power to repel evil or not.

It's not a fact that Link is the only one able to use the Master Sword to it's full power. It just isn't. No game ever states this.

[Jumbie]

Could you all fill me in on what KnS is?

KnS = "BS Zelda - Kodai no Sekiban (Ancient Stone Tablets)"

But we don't know that it didn't vanish again after KnS though, as it was only back because of Ganon's use of the stone tablets.

We don't know for sure, but it can be assumed with high certainty because if the Dark World didn't vanish after ALttP even though Link had the Triforce, why should it vanish after KnS when the Triforce is not even involved? Do you mean since Ganon is really killed this time around, the Dark World has to disappear? This assumption needn't be true, we may as well assume that the DW doesn't disappear after Ganon's demise in Oracles, FSA and LoZ. It is there all along, as a necessary plot device for Twinrova to recrute Veran and Onox from there (OoX), and for Ganon's followers to recrute new forces from there (AoL).

[coinilius]

Okay, thanks. Alright, so, what is your reasoning for considering this game canon to be used in timeline debate? By considering this little filler game, which was probably intended to make Nintendo a quick couple of yen, why don't you consider every other piece of Nintendo-licensed Zelda material to be canon? We've got hundreds of pages of mangas, we have the old cartoons, we have the three Phillips games, then there's the Zelda Game & Watches and Game Watch. There's also the remake of LoZ entitled BS Zelda! Why do you consider Kodai no Sekiban to be canon and not the other Nintendo-licensed sources of Zelda material?

The Zelda Game and Watch can be slotted into continuity quite nicely, actually...

Edited by coinilius, 14 August 2006 - 09:29 PM.

[Showsni]

Okay, thanks. Alright, so, what is your reasoning for considering this game canon to be used in timeline debate? By considering this little filler game, which was probably intended to make Nintendo a quick couple of yen, why don't you consider every other piece of Nintendo-licensed Zelda material to be canon? We've got hundreds of pages of mangas, we have the old cartoons, we have the three Phillips games, then there's the Zelda Game & Watches and Game Watch. There's also the remake of LoZ entitled BS Zelda! Why do you consider Kodai no Sekiban to be canon and not the other Nintendo-licensed sources of Zelda material?

It's not just licensed, but made by Nintendo. That instantly places it above most of the things you've listed. It has a definite slot in the continuity, so there's no problem placing it into pretty much any timeline. It's a Nintendo game made for a Nintendo system... Why shouldn't it be canon, is the question. It's clearly different to a remake; they are just that, remakes. You wouldn't put OoT and OoT MQ as seperate events in the timeline. AST, though, is a full, new story. The only comparable thing is the Game and Watch, which also has no real problems fitting into the timeline.

[coinilius]

That's not the point. If you take one half-assed game that's been made publicly appealing by putting Link and Zelda into it as canon, then you've got to take them all as canon.

I was being cheeky, hence the wink

Although ( to continue in this cheeky vein), out of all those mentioned, the BS Zelda's and the G&W Zelda's could be argued to be 'above' the others on the canon scale as they were developed by Nintendo, for release on a Nintendo system/product line. Also, Nintendo themselves have never shown any interest in including the Phillips games, but have recorded KnS on official documentaries and lists before.

And I wouldn't call the G&W game half-assed, as it's a very involved example of it's product type

[LionHarted]

Also, Nintendo themselves have never shown any interest in including the Phillips games, but have recorded KnS on official documentaries and lists before.

Without a universal release, however, Nintendo's role in developing KnS is quite irrelevant.

[coinilius]

Without a universal release, however, Nintendo's role in developing KnS is quite irrelevant.

By 'universal release' do you mean 'outside Japan' or are you refering to it being released on a specialised system? Or a combination of both or some? Just curious...