409 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

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We talked that through earlier. There are two possible explanations:
- ALttP's "tribe of evil thieves" refers to Ganondorf's gang of men that Nabooru mentioned in OoT,
- ALttP's "tribe of evil thieves" refers to Ganondorf's people, the Gerudo thieves, which where later mistaken to be his evil followers, although they weren't.
Actually, it doesn't matter which one you choose. The more explanations there are for issues like that, the better!

Well the Gerudo aren't men and they sure as hell aren't Ganondorf's followers. So logic would dictate that it's not the Gerudo. I don't think the Gerudo were ever meant to be Ganon's followers mentioned in OoT. He is allowed to have followers outside of his race, you know. I think his followers were Hyrulean criminals who followed Ganondorf, thinking they'd get a piece of the pie. Did Nabooru really mention a gang of men in OoT though? Just wondering...

As for the whole "tribe of evil thieves" are you sure all those words were used together? As I recalled, it was just Tribe of Evil with no "thieves" added at the end. Afganhim mentions the Tribe of Evil in his final confrontation with Link and it's used in FSA as a reference to a tribe that was imprisoned in the Mirror of Darkness. That whole race was imprisoned in that mirror and you can see in FSA, the Gerudo are living free.

[Arturo]

SOAP, on Aug 3 2006, 07:05 PM, said:

Well the Gerudo aren't men and they sure as hell aren't Ganondorf's followers. So logic would dictate that it's not the Gerudo. I don't think the Gerudo were ever meant to be Ganon's followers mentioned in OoT. He is allowed to have followers outside of his race, you know. I think his followers were Hyrulean criminals who followed Ganondorf, thinking they'd get a piece of the pie. Did Nabooru really mention a gang of men in OoT though? Just wondering...

As for the whole "tribe of evil thieves" are you sure all those words were used together? As I recalled, it was just Tribe of Evil with no "thieves" added at the end. Afganhim mentions the Tribe of Evil in his final confrontation with Link and it's used in FSA as a reference to a tribe that was imprisoned in the Mirror of Darkness. That whole race was imprisoned in that mirror and you can see in FSA, the Gerudo are living free.

I will not say anything. I will just let the games speak for me.

Rauru:

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Ganondorf, the Gerudo King of Thieves, used it to enter this forbidden Sacred Realm!

Gerudo Commander

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Nabooru is the second-in-command to the great Ganondorf, King of the Gerudo Thieves.

ALttP Manual:

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That is, until one day, completely by chance, the entrance to the Sacred Realm was opened by by a certain group of thieves.

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The man's name was Ganondorf, and his common name was Ganon of the race of evil thieves.

[Jumbie]

SOAP, on Aug 3 2006, 06:20 PM, said:

If the Sacred Realm was restored it wouldn't be a mirror image of Hyrule at all, but a formless world with a golden sky. The only reason it looks like Hyrule is because Ganon's wish made it so. Since his wish eventually gets countered by Link's, there shouldn't be a mirrored Hyrule, dark or otherwise.

...Say you. The only thing that suggests the Sacred Realm was a formless world is that one Triforce artwork for ALttP. Or, the condition of the SR could've changed after it had been the Dark World for so long, in the way that when Link wished it back to normal it just became a good mirror image of Hyrule.

MikePetersSucks, on Aug 3 2006, 06:43 PM, said:

If we assume it is the Sacred Realm/Dark World, where's the Triforce?

We don't know. ALttP Link must have brought it back to Hyrule, that's why it is in Hyrule Castle at the beginning of OoX. At the end of OoX, the Triforce flies away into the sky... Much like the Triforce does at the end of TWW.
In FSA, the Triforce might be in Hyrule Castle, as the Triforce symbol in the ending sequence suggests, or it might be back at the Sacred Realm (still called "Dark World"). Only because Ganon doesn't know of it, doesn't mean it's not around.

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Why is the sky blue? Should be gold, even if it was the Dark World.

I can't remember to have seen the sky in FSA's Dark World.

Fyxe, on Aug 3 2006, 06:55 PM, said:

I think we just have to assume that the Dark World didn't vanish completely, rather it simply started to lose influence and power (as in the Oracle games, where the motives of Onox and Veran are to restore it to it's former 'glory' by bringing back Ganon). Maybe this is because Ganon's spirit is never completely destroyed, as he's always being revived, which is why it remains but also why it loses it's power.

The Triforce never said the realm would vanish, just that the 'Dark World' as we know it would probably disappear. But it didn't even say it with certainty.

Very good explanation!

SOAP, on Aug 3 2006, 07:05 PM, said:

Well the Gerudo aren't men and they sure as hell aren't Ganondorf's followers. So logic would dictate that it's not the Gerudo. I don't think the Gerudo were ever meant to be Ganon's followers mentioned in OoT. He is allowed to have followers outside of his race, you know. I think his followers were Hyrulean criminals who followed Ganondorf, thinking they'd get a piece of the pie. Did Nabooru really mention a gang of men in OoT though? Just wondering...

I agree 100% with that. That's what Nabooru says:

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Wait a second, I want to ask you first--you wouldn't happen to be one of Ganondorf's...followers...would you?
A kid like you could never be one of Ganondorf's followers!
Though we're both thieves, I'm completely different from Ganondorf. With his followers, he stole from women and children, and even killed people!
Ganondorf and his minions are using the Spirit Temple as a hideout.
Only the Silver Gauntlets will allow me to sneak deep into the temple.
Once there, I'm going to steal all the treasure inside and mess up their plans!

I think these quotes make it obvious that no Gerudo are among Ganondorf's followers - except for Twinrova, of course.

Edited by Jumbie, 03 August 2006 - 01:00 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

SOAP said

Well the Gerudo aren't men and they sure as hell aren't Ganondorf's followers.

They are in OoT.

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I don't think the Gerudo were ever meant to be Ganon's followers mentioned in OoT. He is allowed to have followers outside of his race, you know. I think his followers were Hyrulean criminals who followed Ganondorf, thinking they'd get a piece of the pie.

According to the ALttP manual, Ganondorf betrayed and murdered his followers when they found the Sacred Realm. Blind and the other "followers" seen in ALttP were people who came looking for the Triforce after the doorway had opened.

MPS said

Why is the sky blue? Should be gold, even if it was the Dark World.

Says who? The sky is red in ALttP, and it turns blue in the ending.

Jumbie said

I think these quotes make it obvious that no Gerudo are among Ganondorf's followers - except for Twinrova, of course.

How is that? She speaks for herself, not the Gerudo.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 03 August 2006 - 01:55 PM.

[Fyxe]

You guys forget that under the leadership of Nabooru, who was being controlled by Twinrova, all of the Gerudos effectively follow Ganondorf throughout most of OoT. Whether they want to or not is a different matter.

[Arturo]

You are forgetting that, though Nabooru was the second-in-command, Ganondorf is for Gerudos the true leader, and they even adored him as a god.


Gerudos were made in OoT to be the same thieves that appear on the Backstory of ALttP... Ganondorf is the leader of a tribe of evil thieves in ALttP BS, while Ganondorf is the King of Gerudo Thieves... Since, let's face it, OoT IS the Seal War, the evil thieves and the Gerudos match completely. Yes, I know that Gerudos are not evil, but are considered as evil even in OoT, because Ganondorf is their leader and they adored him (yeah, I know it's racist... but that's the way the world works). Therefore Gerudos in OoT=Evil Tribe of Thieves in ALttP BS

EDIT: Forgot to give a quote for Gerudos adoring Ganondorf... here it is:

A Gossip Stone, somewhere.

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They say that Gerudos worship
Ganondorf almost like a god.

Edited by Arturo, 04 August 2006 - 11:25 AM.

[Jumbie]

Whether the Gerudo respect Ganondorf for being their leader or not, they themselves are certainly not robbing and killing even women and children (like Nabooru says about Ganondorf's followers), otherwise Nintendo wouldn't have let the Gerudo get away without a punishment.
Yes, Ganondorf rules over the Gerudo women, but they are by no means his evil minions which have hoarded robbed goods in the Spirit Temple, who have supported his evil scheme to get the Triforce, and who have finally joined him entering the Sacred Realm. Those minions must be others - men most likely, going by Nabooru's implication - who can very well belong to another Hyrulean race, their descendants later to be known as the thieves of Kakariko and the Lost Woods.

[Fyxe]

Must they be a seperate 'race'? Hylians can be bastards too.

[Hero of Legend]

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Whether the Gerudo respect Ganondorf for being their leader or not, they themselves are certainly not robbing and killing even women and children (like Nabooru says about Ganondorf's followers), otherwise Nintendo wouldn't have let the Gerudo get away without a punishment.

Why not? Nintendo let others who followed Ganondorf "get away" with it.

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Yes, Ganondorf rules over the Gerudo women, but they are by no means his evil minions which have hoarded robbed goods in the Spirit Temple, who have supported his evil scheme to get the Triforce, and who have finally joined him entering the Sacred Realm. Those minions must be others - men most likely, going by Nabooru's implication - who can very well belong to another Hyrulean race, their descendants later to be known as the thieves of Kakariko and the Lost Woods.

A totally baseless assumption. There can be evil Gerudos who followed Ganondorf, as well as "good" ones like Nabooru, you know.

As for Nabooru's "men", that is a synonym to "soldiers" or "servants" and is not meant to specify their sex.

That said, the bulk of Ganondorf's forces were likely men. Or more specifically, they were Hyrulians who were brainwashed in a similar fashion to Nabooru (and Ingo) and the soldiers in ALttP.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 05 August 2006 - 03:41 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

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Why not? Nintendo let others who followed Ganondorf "get away" with it.

By "Get away" Do you mean "Butchered with Link's sword and arrows?" Maybe it's just my imagination.

[Jumbie]

Fyxe, on Aug 5 2006, 06:44 AM, said:

Must they be a seperate 'race'? Hylians can be bastards too.

I don't quite understand, 'bastards' with the meaning of 'crossbreed', or used as a swearword?
When I said another race, I didn't exclude Hylians. On the contrary - I can't think of a race which provided better followers for Ganondorf (apart from the Deku Scrubs, that is).

Hero of Legend, on Aug 5 2006, 10:40 AM, said:

Why not? Nintendo let others who followed Ganondorf "get away" with it.

Huh, whom do you mean? The brainwashed are obviously free of guilt, and normally every baddy that a game shows is eventually dealt with by Link, so...

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A totally baseless assumption. There can be evil Gerudos who followed Ganondorf, as well as "good" ones like Nabooru, you know.

Well, maybe one or two Gerudo we didn't get to see were supporting Ganondorf in his gang, but I refuse to believe any of the Gerudo seen in the fortress belong to them. If it was so, the developers could've made Link kill Gerudo guards or warriors, instead of letting them run. They are simply small time, only robbing your money or killing men on the battlefield, but never murdering the defenceless.

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As for Nabooru's "men", that is a synonym to "soldiers" or "servants" and is not meant to specify their sex.

Actually, Nabooru never uses the word 'men' to refer to Ganondorf's minions. And yet they have to be men, since Nabooru would certainly mention the word Gerudo if his followers really were from her own people.

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That said, the bulk of Ganondorf's forces were likely men. Or more specifically, they were Hyrulians who were brainwashed in a similar fashion to Nabooru (and Ingo) and the soldiers in ALttP.

Wait a second. Brainwashed, how can you say that so certainly?
Firstly, the game makes no implication that Ingo's strange behaviour was due to outside influences, it's only the manga explaining it like that. Ingo definitely had the basics for developing such a greed all by himself, as was already apparent when Link was a child.
Secondly, not exactly everyone requires a brainwash to serve a villain. I was told that there exist criminals by their free will, not only mind-controlled puppets..

[Fyxe]

Jumbie, on Aug 5 2006, 06:34 PM, said:

I don't quite understand, 'bastards' with the meaning of 'crossbreed', or used as a swearword?

...I clearly meant it as in 'Hylians can be jerks too'.

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When I said another race, I didn't exclude Hylians. On the contrary - I can't think of a race which provided better followers for Ganondorf (apart from the Deku Scrubs, that is).

Moblins?

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Well, maybe one or two Gerudo we didn't get to see were supporting Ganondorf in his gang, but I refuse to believe any of the Gerudo seen in the fortress belong to them. If it was so, the developers could've made Link kill Gerudo guards or warriors, instead of letting them run.

Yeah, and why not have Link hack off Ingo's head while you're at it? And how about that ghost salesman? Link never kills humans. He doesn't even kill things like the ghost salesman just because they support Ganon. Also, Darknuts aren't exactly human, before you bring that up, and they certainly have little free will. It's surprising enough that he fights the Gerudos as it is.

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Actually, Nabooru never uses the word 'men' to refer to Ganondorf's minions. And yet they have to be men, since Nabooru would certainly mention the word Gerudo if his followers really were from her own people.

Why? She's a Gerudo herself, why would she refer to her own race like that? If I knew of some people who followed Ganon, I would say 'Ganon's followers' not 'Ganon's human followers'.

[Hero of Slime]

Link had no problem killing the humans in ALttP, and they had no free will. Link only kills those who try to kill him, the human soldiers in ALttP did but the Gerudo guards, Ingo, and the ghostsales man did not.

[Showsni]

They're not 3D though. It's a child friendly game, mostly - killing humans is something the developers would shy away from. The ALttP ones are tiny armoured sprites, so it doesn't have the same effect.

[Hero of Legend]

MikePetersSucks said

By "Get away" Do you mean "Butchered with Link's sword and arrows?" Maybe it's just my imagination.

Not everyone who follows Ganondorf gets killed. So yes, it is your imagination.

Jumbie said

Well, maybe one or two Gerudo we didn't get to see were supporting Ganondorf in his gang, but I refuse to believe any of the Gerudo seen in the fortress belong to them. If it was so, the developers could've made Link kill Gerudo guards or warriors, instead of letting them run.

If they're willing to see the error of their ways (which they apparently do, judging by the ending), I don't see why they need to be killed. Besides, Nintendo obviously doesn’t want Link killing humans. After all, neither Twinrova nor Ganondorf actually “die.”

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They are simply small time, only robbing your money or killing men on the battlefield, but never murdering the defenceless.

We really have no idea about that.

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Actually, Nabooru never uses the word 'men' to refer to Ganondorf's minions. And yet they have to be men, since Nabooru would certainly mention the word Gerudo if his followers really were from her own people.

Then I suppose Koume and Kotake must be male non-Gerudos then. Them being Ganondorf's minions and all.

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Wait a second. Brainwashed, how can you say that so certainly?

How do you think Ganondorf "attacked" Hyrule Castle without a fight? He did it in ALttP, he can do it in OoT.

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Firstly, the game makes no implication that Ingo's strange behaviour was due to outside influences, it's only the manga explaining it like that. Ingo definitely had the basics for developing such a greed all by himself, as was already apparent when Link was a child.

You say, huh?

Malon said

Do you know my mother's song? Everyone really liked that song... My dad... Even Mr. Ingo... But...since Ganondorf appeared, Mr. Ingo has changed completely.

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Mr. Ingo is just using the ranch to gain Ganondorf's favor... Everyone seems to be turning evil...

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Mr. Ingo... He was afraid that the Evil King might find out that Epona had been taken away...It really upset him! But one day, all of a sudden, he went back to being a normal, nice person!

And of course...

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Mr. Ingo... He must have been tempted by evil powers. He's not really a bad person at all...

Pretty obvious implications, no?

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Secondly, not exactly everyone requires a brainwash to serve a villain. I was told that there exist criminals by their free will, not only mind-controlled puppets..

And it's normal for the Castle soldiers to just turn a blind eye to the villain who just tried to capture their Princess? Right...

Zol said

Link had no problem killing the humans in ALttP, and they had no free will. Link only kills those who try to kill him, the human soldiers in ALttP did but the Gerudo guards, Ingo, and the ghostsales man did not.

There ARE Gerudos who try to kill him though, and he doesn’t kill them either.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 05 August 2006 - 04:51 PM.

[Jumbie]

Fyxe, on Aug 5 2006, 09:00 PM, said:

Moblins?

Right, that's the one race I forgot. However, could the men who entered the Sacred Realm with Ganondorf have been Moblins?

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Yeah, and why not have Link hack off Ingo's head while you're at it? And how about that ghost salesman? Link never kills humans. He doesn't even kill things like the ghost salesman just because they support Ganon.

Trying to be silly, huh? Alright then. Ingo never committed any crimes, except maybe maltreat the horses and Malon.
The ghost salesman did even less than Ingo. How could we expect Link to kill him only for his praising Ganondorf?! Anyway, Link wouldn't say no to a good deal, even if it was a crooked deal.
"Link never kills humans" - what a statement. No, I hadn't planned to say Darknuts, but the human soldiers in ALttP and FSA will do just fine. Hundreds, maybe thousands. Sprite or polygon, killed is killed when it boils down to Link's attitude.

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It's surprising enough that he fights the Gerudos as it is.

Hullo?! They lunge at him with two huge scimitars, and Link is supposed to behave feminist?! You should definitely reconsider your image of Link...

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She's a Gerudo herself, why would she refer to her own race like that? If I knew of some people who followed Ganon, I would say 'Ganon's followers' not 'Ganon's human followers'.

But I would've put it like that, "And some of his followers are even from my own tribe". It wouldn't have been difficult to add this info, given that this was true. Thus, it's likely not true. No Gerudo followers.

The Zol, on Aug 5 2006, 09:53 PM, said:

Link only kills those who try to kill him, the human soldiers in ALttP did but the Gerudo guards, Ingo, and the ghostsales man did not.

Sounds much better, this here. The coincidence that humans are very rare among the enemies in Zelda does in no way suggest that Link wouldn't kill people if he has to defend himself.
Howsoever, how stupid would it be if the players figured out that some followers of Ganondorf are the very Gerudo among whom they walked around peacefully and happily? Already for this reason alone, I deny that Gerudo have joined their king in doing evil.

Honestly, what has all of that to do with FSA's place in the timeline.
To those who believe ALttP>FSA, I'd still like to hear your opinion on where OoX fits in.

[Hero of Slime]

Between FSA and AoL's backstory.

[Jumbie]

Sorry for that one, but I missed out on Hero of Legend's long post...

Hero of Legend, on Aug 5 2006, 11:48 PM, said:

If they're willing to see the error of their ways (which they apparently do, judging by the ending), I don't see why they need to be killed. Besides, Nintendo obviously doesn’t want Link killing humans. After all, neither Twinrova nor Ganondorf actually “die.”

The Gerudo simply don't have any errors to regret, that's why they are partying so happily.
Aha, Twinrova didn't die. And their halos are just nice headdresses...
Ganondorf is immortal while holding the Triforce of Power, so there's just no way to kill him.

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Then I suppose Koume and Kotake must be male non-Gerudos then.

If you look far, far back in my posts, I had already included those two Gerudo into the gang.

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Pretty obvious implications, no?

"Tempted by evil powers" is far from being brainwashed. In my book, temptation occurs by free will.

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And it's normal for the Castle soldiers to just turn a blind eye to the villain who just tried to capture their Princess? Right...

What's with your Castle soldiers all the time! There's no debate about them going on at all.

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There ARE Gerudos who try to kill him though, and he doesn’t kill them either.

They neither try to, nor do kill him. Remember what happens if you lose to them? Jail, that's all.

The Zol, on Aug 6 2006, 12:11 AM, said:

Between FSA and AoL's backstory.

Hm, the placement of OoX doesn't seem to be a problem, compared to your major disagreement about ALttP's place.. I wonder if we will need to work out two perfect Split Timelines now

[Hero of Slime]

Remind me what I said about ALttP. I don't remember any disagreement. It was MJ who disagreed with you.

Edited by The Zol, 05 August 2006 - 05:28 PM.

[Jumbie]

The Zol, on Aug 6 2006, 12:26 AM, said:

Remind me what I said about ALttP. I don't remember any disagreement. It was MJ who disagreed with you.

You yourself said nothing about it, but I was so rash to look at your timeline. So, unless it's outdated by now..

[Hero of Slime]

This is the split timeline thread so my single timeline in my sig. has no relevance to this topic. Even so when Octo and I designed that timeline we did not consider the Four Sword dungeon in ALttP. If I did a timeline now I would place FS and FSA after ALttP.

[Fyxe]

Jumbie, on Aug 5 2006, 11:01 PM, said:

No, I hadn't planned to say Darknuts, but the human soldiers in ALttP and FSA will do just fine. Hundreds, maybe thousands. Sprite or polygon, killed is killed when it boils down to Link's attitude.

And what do you think the soldiers in ALttP and FSA are? They're Darknuts. Didn't you notice? Humans don't burst into magical flames when you kill them. Link can fight regular soldiers in the Oracle games, you can't kill them.

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Hullo?! They lunge at him with two huge scimitars, and Link is supposed to behave feminist?! You should definitely reconsider your image of Link...

...WAY to miss my point. I was saying it was surprising the DESIGNERS had Link fighting standard humans, and it's NOT surprising that he didn't kill them.

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But I would've put it like that, "And some of his followers are even from my own tribe". It wouldn't have been difficult to add this info, given that this was true. Thus, it's likely not true. No Gerudo followers.

What kind of demented logic is that? The fact that she didn't say they were from her tribe therefore means that there can't of been Gerudos following him? That's bad arguing.

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The coincidence that humans are very rare among the enemies in Zelda does in no way suggest that Link wouldn't kill people if he has to defend himself.

No, but the fact that when Link HAS fought regular humans he has never killed them, and the fact that the Zelda games are designed for all ages means the only human Link is likely to ever kill is Ganondorf.

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Howsoever, how stupid would it be if the players figured out that some followers of Ganondorf are the very Gerudo among whom they walked around peacefully and happily?

What, wandering around with spears throwing men in dungeons? Completely peaceful.

Edited by Fyxe, 05 August 2006 - 06:24 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Jumbie said

The Gerudo simply don't have any errors to regret, that's why they are partying so happily.

Says you.

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Aha, Twinrova didn't die. And their halos are just nice headdresses...

They didn't "die" like every other boss. And by that I mean explode, burn up, or some such. Instead Nintendo made a joke out of their death - With a promise of their return, I might ad.

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Ganondorf is immortal while holding the Triforce of Power, so there's just no way to kill him.

Any other unsupported claims to make?

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If you look far, far back in my posts, I had already included those two Gerudo into the gang.

That still doesn't make them men.

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"Tempted by evil powers" is far from being brainwashed. In my book, temptation occurs by free will.

Way to ignore the other quotes. Let me tell you something, people just don't change over a day like Malon said Ingo did.

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They neither try to, nor do kill him. Remember what happens if you lose to them? Jail, that's all.

You know those Gerudos that guard the prisons? You fight them for keys. Yeah, those. Anyway, they hit you, and you die. Simple.

Fyxe said

No, but the fact that when Link HAS fought regular humans he has never killed them, and the fact that the Zelda games are designed for all ages means the only human Link is likely to ever kill is Ganondorf.

Well, the soldiers in ALttP were in fact Hylians that had fallen under Agahnims spell. However, one can't say the same for FSA's soldiers. They were mere monsters (as far as we know).

Edited by Hero of Legend, 05 August 2006 - 06:38 PM.

[Fyxe]

The soldiers in ALttP were human soldiers that had become Darknuts. Hell, most of them probably weren't humans in the first place. There are *loads* of them, more soldiers than the rest of the population by a long, long way, and there's an endless stream of them, at that.

Hero of Legend, on Aug 6 2006, 12:37 AM, said:

You know those Gerudos that guard the prisons? You fight them for keys. Yeah, those. Anyway, they hit you, and you die. Simple.

I've never actually seen what happens if they deplete all your health, but if they hit you with their spinning attack, it knocks Link out and they throw him in a cell, showing that they're not necessarily out to just kill him by any means.

Edited by Fyxe, 05 August 2006 - 06:49 PM.

[Showsni]

What does Gerudo morality have to do with the perfect split timeline?

Link not killing realisitc humans is a gameplay issue, in any case - for example, in the Scouts you're not allowed to go paintballing, or even fire arrows at a human shaped target, because it's against the rules to fire anything towards something that's human shaped.

[Hero of Slime]

Fyxe, when is the term "DarkNut" used in ALttP? I remember those guys being called soldiers but never darknuts. I also remember talking to some of them before getting the sword. They give gameplay instructions, but sometimes talk about how soldiers were put under a spell by the wizard.

The fact that they disappear when killed is just a game play function. It is just away to keep the ground from being covered with corpses. The reason there appears to be more soldiers than civilians is also a game play function, there needs to be more enemies then there needs to be friendly characters.

The soldiers of FSA are also Human. They wear the same style armor as the soldiers in ALttP.

Edited by The Zol, 05 August 2006 - 09:11 PM.

[Fyxe]

The Zol, on Aug 6 2006, 03:04 AM, said:

Fyxe, when is the term "DarkNut" used in ALttP? I remember those guys being called soldiers but never darknuts.

When is the term 'Darknut' used in TLoZ or LA? The ones in LA and the Oracle games are definitely Darknuts, and are exactly the same enemy. Those in FSA have the same voices as Darknuts in TWW. I think it's fairly obvious they are intended to be the same foe, even if the ones in ALttP have not, to my knowledge, been openly named as such.

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I also remember talking to some of them before getting the sword. They give gameplay instructions, but sometimes talk about how soldiers were put under a spell by the wizard.

Yes, those were normal soldiers in the Darknut-style armour. Link can't kill them because of their huge shields.

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The fact that they disappear when killed is just a game play function. It is just away to keep the ground from being covered with corpses.

Monsters vanish, other non-monster enemies generally run away in some fashion. When Bow Wow fights Kiki in LA, for instance. Gerudos in OoT don't burn up, they merely flee. My argument here is a bit limited because Link rarely fights non-monster foes, but generally the burning up thing seems to be a very... Monstery death thing.

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The reason there appears to be more soldiers than civilians is also a game play function, there needs to be more enemies then there needs to be friendly characters.

Yes, it's a game play function, that's correct, but there really is a hell of a lot of them. More than any other type of enemy. In KnS, which uses the same engine, they don't appear at all (well, for obvious storyline reasons) showing that they didn't necessarily need to have so many of them.

FSA plays on this even more, by having massive, massive numbers of them. I just don't buy the idea of Link slaughtering huge hoards of poor brainwashed soldiers. Even in the darkest games in the series the cruelest thing Link can do is kill a Skull Kid, which is difficult and they seem to be a type of monster anyway.

Thinking those soldiers are human is like thinking that Wizrobes are human. Or Iron Knuckles.

Edited by Fyxe, 05 August 2006 - 09:44 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

The term Dark Nut came from LoZ's manual, it was not used again until TWW.

fyxe said

Yes, those were normal soldiers in the Darknut-style armour. Link can't kill them because of their huge shields.

They tell Link that the soldiers in Hyrule castle were being controlled by the wizard. Meaning that they were not controlled before. One also says that he would probably be taken control of as well, meaning that he was still good at the time of talking to link.

I think that all soldiers in games like LA and OoX are some form of human who just fight for Ganon. I think the same applies for wizrobes.

The reason I beileve that burning up is simply a game play funtion is that I can think of no physical reason why some of hyrule's creatures would burst into flames upon death while others die normaly.

I see no problem with Link killing other Humans when they are trying to
kill him.

Fyxe said

In KnS, which uses the same engine, they don't appear at all (well, for obvious storyline reasons) showing that they didn't necessarily need to have so many of them.

With Ganon and Agahnim dead the soldiers would have went back to Hyrule's side.

[Fyxe]

The Zol, on Aug 6 2006, 04:24 PM, said:

The term Dark Nut came from LoZ's manual, it was not used again until TWW.

Incorrect. It has been used in the official Japanese guides for LA, the Oracle games and almost every game they have appeared in. The official guides are generally the best way of getting the names of monsters. Anyway, they're clearly meant to be the same enemies.

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They tell Link that the soldiers in Hyrule castle were being controlled by the wizard. Meaning that they were not controlled before. One also says that he would probably be taken control of as well, meaning that he was still good at the time of talking to link.

I don't see how that affects anything. So they have the same armour? So? All they know is that Agahnim is taking control of the other soldiers. Essentially turning them into monsters in the process.

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I think that all soldiers in games like LA and OoX are some form of human who just fight for Ganon.

Darknuts don't look like any human I know, and again, humans tend not to explode when you kill them.

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I think the same applies for wizrobes.

Well, the Wizrobes in TWW and Majora's Mask certainly aren't human. There are Wizrobes in ALttP that have skulls for faces, too. Plus, they can't be human in ALttP - they appear in the Dark World.

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The reason I beileve that burning up is simply a game play funtion is that I can think of no physical reason why some of hyrule's creatures would burst into flames upon death while others die normaly.

They're monsters. Monsters generally tend to die in very over the top ways, because, well, they're magical beings.

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I see no problem with Link killing other Humans when they are trying to kill him.

Oh, so killing Nabooru even though she was brainwashed would of been fine? Again, that's another example, Nabooru didn't burn up when she was beaten, her armour just fell off. Link also can't kill the human soldiers in the Oracle games, and they kill him if Link isn't careful.

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With Ganon and Agahnim dead the soldiers would have went back to Hyrule's side.

I mentioned 'for storyline reasons'. But that was beside the point I was trying to make.

Edited by Fyxe, 06 August 2006 - 10:42 AM.

[Hero of Slime]

Guides are not canon so the names in them can not be taken as canon.
The soldiers in LA and OoX are wearing armor, how do you know that they don't look human? The wizrobes also wear robes so I don't see how you know for a fact that they are in human. I think that being a wizrobe has nothing to do with ones species, but only ones dress and magic tactics.

I think that not all enemies are magical beings and the term monster has nothing to do with biology. The creatures only explode to keep corpses of the ground.

I would have no problem with Link killing Nabooru if she was trying to kill him.