409 replies to this topic

[mohammedali]

An idea that came up in The Perfect Timeline thread was to have a seperate discussion about split timelines. So here is a thread for the Perfect Split Timeline. Here, only split timelines are to be discussed, so arguements such as "but that doesn't work in a single timeline" are by no means valid

Mohammed Ali

[Arturo]

An idea that came up in The Perfect Timeline thread was to have a seperate discussion about split timelines. So here is a thread for the Perfect Split Timeline. Here, only split timelines are to be discussed, so arguements such as "but that doesn't work in a single timeline" are by no means valid

Mohammed Ali

This is my split timeline:

TMC>OoT Child(SW)>MM>ALttP>LA>OoX>AoL Backstory>FS>FSA>LoZ>AoL
TMC>OoT Adult>(TP)>TWW>(PH)

Most links are obvious, excepet the situation of the Four Sword games. I ddecided TMC to be first because I consider it to be a an Oot back story. Do you remember what it was said about the ancient Sages building the Temple of Time in order to protect the Triforce? If they know so much about its consequences, it must have been used before. Well, my theory is that TMC is one of the causes why they decided the Triforce to be protected. For me Light Force=Triforce, because no other magical artefact would give so much power. Then, we can reconstruct this story for the Triforce: it was created by the goddesses and remained in the SR until the Minish gave it to the Hero of Men. The Triforce would be held by the princess. Then all the things from TMC happen, and maybe there are more problems after that with the Triforce. Because of this the ancient Sages bring it to the SR and seal the entrance until OoT.

For FS I decided to dismiss the creator's quote that said FS was first, because FS is strongly tied to FSA, and in FSA Ganon is an ancient demon REBORN, so it must be after OoT. I also decided to put it just before LoZ because the Trident plays a great role in FSA and I think it must be destroyed after Ganon's sealing in the Four Sword. This would explain why he doesn't have it in LoZ.

[SOAP]

Hey that was my idea. LOL!

Here's my timeline again:

Adult - OOT // TWW - PH // ALTTP - AST - LA // LOZ -AOL
Child - OOT - MM // TMC // FS - FSA // OOX

That's if you want to say OoT is the IW. Because if it the IW then ALttP must continue off OoT's adult portion brecause that's the closest thing to the IW. To say the IW takes place in the child timeline with the same characters as OOT only not during any time covered in any of the games is just an asssumed. The might as well put it on either timeline and just have the IW not be any of the existing games. Problem is, we know for sure that TWW continues off the adult ending but TWW kinda makes things hard to place on the same timeline as OoT and TWW. One can';t go before the other without causing [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of plotholes. But until I can figure something out my timeline works for me.

Also, does this count as a split timeline?

Adult - OOT // TWW - PH // TMC // FS - FSA // ALTTP - AST - LA // OOX // LOZ -AOL
Child - OOT - MM - Ganon rots in prison and dies a human. ETERNAL PEACE

Edited by SOAP, 05 July 2006 - 01:20 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

Timeline #6
Child Timeline: (TMC)-(OoT-MM)-(FS-FSA)-(ALttP-LA)-(OoA-OoS)-(LoZ-AoL)
Adult Timeline: (TMC)-(OoT)-(TWW)

The split is caused when Zelda sent Link back in time at the end of OoT. Link changed the future by going to termina instead of being put into the sacred realm. The IW happens shortly after MM.

FS and FSA have the same Link. The Ganondorf in FSA is not the same as the one in OoT, he is the second ganondorf who is emulating the first. He is sealed in the Four Sword and does not ever get out.

In ALttP the first Ganon tries to escape from the seal. LA happens after that. KnS is not part of the timeline. The Master Sword sleeps forever at the end of ALttP.

The Mater Sword in the Oracle games is not part of the Master Sword's continuity.

AoL's BS happens after the Oracle games and before LoZ and AoL.

In this Timeline there are 7 Links, 2 Ganons, 8 Zeldas, and 5 Tingles.

[mohammedali]

I'm currently reworking my timeline, but I'll state a couple of my old ones to act as food for thought...

Bloodline Timeline:
OoT Child -> MM | aLttP -> OoX -> LA | LoZ -> AoL
OoT Adult | TMC | FS -> FSA | WW

Concept: The idea behind the bloodline timeline is that there are 2 families of Links. One starts with the Hero of Time, and continues in the child timeline. The other familiy was inspired by the Hero of Time, but are not actually related - this is the Hero of Wind family, who faught the wind mage Vaati, and in the case of WW Link, was named Hero of Wind.

Points:
- TMC is put after OoT because it shows a world with people who look just like those in both OoT, and in WW - suggesting this was a time inbetween the two time periods.
- In TMC, Link gains a shield which looks exactly like the one that is seen in WW and stated to belong to the legendary hero (who is part of WW Links bloodline). As we are told that OoT Link and WW Link have no connection, it seems likely that this legendary hero was another Link. For these two reasons, I put TMC Link as the ancestor of WW Link.

This isn't my main theory, but one of my more inovative ideas. I'll post the other one later. Feel free to discuss this one, whilst I ready the next.

Mohammed Ali

[Jumbie]

I think everyone's split timelines make sense. But I won't post mine, as you can see it in my sig anyway, and if all we do is post our timelines, we'll never find a common ground, will we?

Suggestion: Let's rework it from the beginning of the release order, with LoZ and AoL, and successively try to agree on all the games' places. Always when a complicated issue comes up (that is, constantly), we should deal with that issue until it is solved.
I'm aware that this strategy will not work out perfectly either, but makes probably more sense than to critique anyone's timelines from the rear end, so to speak. What do you think?

[Hero of Slime]

I'll post the other one later. Feel free to discuss this one, whilst I ready the next.

I think that all the Links should be related. I know the Hero of Time left the adult timeline, but he could have had relatives. I think that TWW Link is descended from one of the Hero of Time's cousins not the Hero of time himself.

[Doopliss]

Suggestion: Let's rework it from the beginning of the release order, with LoZ and AoL, and successively try to agree on all the games' places. Always when a complicated issue comes up (that is, constantly), we should deal with that issue until it is solved.
I'm aware that this strategy will not work out perfectly either, but makes probably more sense than to critique anyone's timelines from the rear end, so to speak. What do you think?

I think that we should first discuss about some things that are common for all the games so we don't waste the time discussing about them without order. For expample: How many Ganons are there? Does Hyrule drain after TWW? How does everything exactly take place after OoT? Certainly there are other topics, but I don't happen to remember any of them right now. I don't have a split timeline yet.

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 4. XI

[Hero of Slime]

First we need to agree on the basics. Do we all agree that:
There are two timelines, one includes the adult ending of OoT, the other includes the child ending, TWW occurs on the adult and MM appears on the child.

If every one agrees, as it appears you all do, we should start with.

Adult: OoT-TWW
and
Child: OoT-MM

[mohammedali]

I think that all the Links should be related. I know the Hero of Time left the adult timeline, but he could have had relatives. I think that TWW Link is descended from one of the Hero of Time's cousins not the Hero of time himself.

I would have agreed with you, but given that WW Link is supposed to have no connection with the Hero of Time, I thought it would make even more sence if there were 2 completely different families of Link. One that was the Hero of Time, and the other that leads to the Hero of Wind. Of course, them being related or not is just an extra point, and doesn't really need to be debated. What do you think of the timeline itself then?

First we need to agree on the basics.

I've taken the following rules from another thread I made a while back.

OoT - MM
Same Link. MM takes place a few months after OoT in another universe.

OoT | aLttP, WW
WW and aLttP both come centuries after OoT. They each feature different Links.

TMC | FS, FSA
TMC comes before FS and FSA and features a different Link.

aLttP | LoZ - AoL
aLttP Link was the ancestor of the Link from LoZ/AoL. AoL is a sequal to LoZ which stars the same Link.
The MS is said to 'rest forever' after aLttP, so no games should feature it after aLttP.

Sleeping Zelda | AoL
The sleeping Zelda in AoL was born generations before AoL, during a time that the King controlled the whole Triforce.

OoX (OoA and OoS)
Can only come after a game where the Triforce is currently in Hyrule Castle and Ganon has been killed. It also seems that Link has not yet met Zelda or Impa.

Is there anything that people disagree with here?

Mohammed Ali

[Arturo]

I would have agreed with you, but given that WW Link is supposed to have no connection with the Hero of Time, I thought it would make even more sence if there were 2 completely different families of Link. One that was the Hero of Time, and the other that leads to the Hero of Wind. Of course, them being related or not is just an extra point, and doesn't really need to be debated. What do you think of the timeline itself then?
I've taken the following rules from another thread I made a while back.

OoT - MM
Same Link. MM takes place a few months after OoT in another universe.

OoT | aLttP, WW
WW and aLttP both come centuries after OoT. They each feature different Links.

TMC | FS, FSA
TMC comes before FS and FSA and features a different Link.

aLttP | LoZ - AoL
aLttP Link was the ancestor of the Link from LoZ/AoL. AoL is a sequal to LoZ which stars the same Link.
The MS is said to 'rest forever' after aLttP, so no games should feature it after aLttP.

Sleeping Zelda | AoL
The sleeping Zelda in AoL was born generations before AoL, during a time that the King controlled the whole Triforce.

OoX (OoA and OoS)
Can only come after a game where the Triforce is currently in Hyrule Castle and Ganon has been killed. It also seems that Link has not yet met Zelda or Impa.

Is there anything that people disagree with here?

Mohammed Ali

OoT>MM. Here, no doubt.
OoT>ALttP
OoT>TWW
They are centuries after OoT, and they must be in different timelines (TWW: Adult, ALttP:Child). ALttP happens before than TWW, because I think that the events of ALttP are those that happen in TWW BS, with the difference that while in TWW BS no hero appeared, in ALttP he did.

TMC>FS>FSA I Agree completely

ALttP>LoZ>AoL
The same

OoX must be after ALttP because the Triforce was united by then


And the Sleeping Zelda thing must have happened after ooX (the Triforce was still united by then) but before FS and FSA, where no-one knows of it.

[mohammedali]

OoT>ALttP
OoT>TWW
They are centuries after OoT, and they must be in different timelines (TWW: Adult, ALttP:Child). ALttP happens before than TWW, because I think that the events of ALttP are those that happen in TWW BS, with the difference that while in TWW BS no hero appeared, in ALttP he did.

The notation was just suggesting that aLttP and WW come after OoT, without any reference to how they relate to each other, but I'll change it to make it more clear.

OoX must be after ALttP because the Triforce was united by then
And the Sleeping Zelda thing must have happened after ooX (the Triforce was still united by then) but before FS and FSA, where no-one knows of it.

The Triforce has been united at other points as well. Although I agree that OoX comes after aLttP, I wouldn't go as far as to say it was a definate rule. Especially given that Link doesn't seem to know who Zelda is.
As for Sleeping Zelda, I would rather not go into that debate. There are many different views on where that should go. It's almost an age old problem

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

The Triforce has been united at other points as well. Although I agree that OoX comes after aLttP, I wouldn't go as far as to say it was a definate rule. Especially given that Link doesn't seem to know who Zelda is.

That still doesn't mean it can't happen after ALttP and LA, it's just a different Link. Y'know, after the Link from LA dies of thirst in the middle of the ocean after the Wind Fish left him there because the Wind Fish is a bitch.

I'm kidding, of course, but it's still definitely a different Link.

As for Sleeping Zelda, I would rather not go into that debate. There are many different views on where that should go. It's almost an age old problem

Mohammed Ali

Nintendo screwed everything up when they released Ocarina of Time, didn't they? Dastards.

[Jumbie]

Doopliss: For expample: How many Ganons are there? Does Hyrule drain after TWW?

The Ganon question is hard, but as far as I know, the only possible answers are 1 Ganon or 2 Ganons, depending on how you explain his "rebirth" in FSA.

About TWW's ending I think that there is no other Hyrule after it, based on the words of King Daphnes who forbade Link and Zelda to name any other land "Hyrule". Phantom Hourglass will most definitely tell us the answer to that question - if at PH's ending no new Hyrule is found, I'll take that as Nintendo's sign that none of the old Zelda games take place after TWW+PH.

mohammedali: Is there anything that people disagree with here?

No, all of that is correct. Same is true for Arturo's elaborations.

mohammedali: The Triforce has been united at other points as well. Although I agree that OoX comes after aLttP, I wouldn't go as far as to say it was a definate rule. Especially given that Link doesn't seem to know who Zelda is.

I don't think Arturo meant that OoX features the same Link from ALttP. There should be a couple of decades between them, not necessarily a century but just like it is the case in Twilight Princess (some decades after OoT). Of course there is also the possibility that OoX happens after AoL, but it's quite unlikely.

[Fyxe]

aLttP | LoZ - AoL
aLttP Link was the ancestor of the Link from LoZ/AoL. AoL is a sequal to LoZ which stars the same Link.
The MS is said to 'rest forever' after aLttP, so no games should feature it after aLttP.

I agree with most of these things but things start going a bit iffy here. With the Oracle games requiring a united Triforce and with Kodai no Sekiban being accepted by Nintendo as a canon Zelda game, there is an argument to say that that line was overlooked by the designers. Two moderately solid arguments, in fact. So you cannot say that as a definite statement.

Also, I'm unclear on how ALttP's Link is definitely an ancestor. The only thing we have going for that is the ALttP box, and we have no idea who wrote that, whether it was a mistranslation or something added from nothing by NoA. There's nothing wrong with the idea but we don't know if it is fact.

Jumbie, how about two Ganondorfs and one Ganon?
Just to make things confusing. Although it makes sense if you think about it.

Edited by Fyxe, 07 July 2006 - 10:59 AM.

[Jumbie]

Fyxe:Jumbie, how about two Ganondorfs and one Ganon?
Just to make things confusing. Although it makes sense if you think about it.

Hm, do you mean the possibility that the first Ganondorf was born before OoT, turned to Ganon in OoT, was sealed, then killed in another game, then reincarnated as a new Ganondorf before FSA, got the Trident back(?) and transformed into the same Ganon he was in OoT - did you mean that?

[Fyxe]

Yes. It seperates the demon Ganon from the man Ganondorf. Ganondorf could be like Link - reborn over and over. The demon Ganon always seems to show the same personality however, and in FSA he appears to recognise Zelda in the same way that Ganon recognises Link in TWW.

It also explains how - whenever Ganon is resurrected rather than reborn, he is never brought back as a human and doesn't show any ability to change back into one.

Edited by Fyxe, 07 July 2006 - 12:01 PM.

[Showsni]

Nintendo screwed everything up when they released Ocarina of Time, didn't they? Dastards.

They managed to stop the timeline working perfectly with the release of ALttP. ALttP states itself to come before LoZ/AoL; yet AoL says the Sleeping Zelda was the first generation Zelda. And in ALttP, the triforce hasn't yet left the SR, so the SZ story comes after ALttP...

[Fyxe]

But that's not a problem. It could technically be the Zelda from ALttP, if need be. You have to crowbar the story in there though. But I still think the Sleeping Zelda story doesn't necessarily mean there can't be any princesses called Zelda before the 'founding' Zelda. It's just that EVERY princess was named Zelda afterwards.

As for why all the other games involve a princess called Zelda, does anyone ever question why all the heroes are called Link? No, so I don't know why that's an issue.

Edited by Fyxe, 07 July 2006 - 03:24 PM.

[mohammedali]

I agree with most of these things but things start going a bit iffy here. With the Oracle games requiring a united Triforce and with Kodai no Sekiban being accepted by Nintendo as a canon Zelda game, there is an argument to say that that line was overlooked by the designers. Two moderately solid arguments, in fact. So you cannot say that as a definite statement.

Personally, I still see the MS sleeps forever line as still holding as game text is always canon, but people are of course welcome to their own opinions.

Also, I'm unclear on how ALttP's Link is definitely an ancestor. The only thing we have going for that is the ALttP box, and we have no idea who wrote that, whether it was a mistranslation or something added from nothing by NoA. There's nothing wrong with the idea but we don't know if it is fact.

It was on the aLttP box, as well as implied in the Japanese instruction booklet.
The booklet talks of Ganon in aLttP BS during the time when he became the King of Evil / Darkness. It mentions him in the Japan version, as if he has been previously known to the game player (i.e. in LoZ). It then states that he has not been outside the SR since the IW. Therefore, aLttP has to be before LoZ at the very least. i.e. even if you don't accept aLttP Link and Zelda to be the ancestors of LoZ Link and Zelda as stated on the box, the fact that aLttP predates LoZ is still canon fact.

They managed to stop the timeline working perfectly with the release of ALttP. ALttP states itself to come before LoZ/AoL; yet AoL says the Sleeping Zelda was the first generation Zelda. And in ALttP, the triforce hasn't yet left the SR, so the SZ story comes after ALttP...

Sleeping Zelda can still come before aLttP, as although the Triforce was sought out for many years, there is no guarentee it had never been touched by someone else before it's knowledge was lost. But as I said before, the placement of Sleeping Zelda is of little significance in the greater scheme of things.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

Therefore, aLttP has to be before LoZ at the very least. i.e. even if you don't accept aLttP Link and Zelda to be the ancestors of LoZ Link and Zelda as stated on the box, the fact that aLttP predates LoZ is still canon fact.

I was not disagreeing with that at all, it's just them being direct ancestors is a bit of a stretch since all we've got for that is the box which isn't the most trustworthy source. But it's definitely a prequel.

[mohammedali]

I was not disagreeing with that at all, it's just them being direct ancestors is a bit of a stretch since all we've got for that is the box which isn't the most trustworthy source. But it's definitely a prequel.

Personally, I see the box as valid as the booklet, and IIRC, there was a mention of ancestory in the japanese booklet as well (though I may be mistaken) - however, I don't think it really matters to the timeline if they were related. Though I find it a cool thought that all the Links might be related to one another.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

The box is only as valid as the manual if it's a translation of what's on the back of the Japanese box, but we don't know. I don't remember it being mentioned in the Japanese manual, but if anyone knows where it is, that'd be good.

[Showsni]

I seem to remember Zethar or someone saying that it is also on the back of the Japanese box...

well, I found a quote from April 2005 of someone saying they throught that Zethar or Beno had confirmed it does say that on teh Japanese box.

Now a quote from March saying that it was Beno...

here's a quote by davogones:

http://gallery.zelda...e.php?pos=-1334
Back of Japanese ALttP box. Zethar and Johan translated this once, but they said it's confusing because it's written in old-style Japanese. I think Beno translated it too but I don't have the transcript. Can't remember exactly what it says, but it's something about going back to ancient times.

[Doopliss]

The Ganon question is hard, but as far as I know, the only possible answers are 1 Ganon or 2 Ganons, depending on how you explain his "rebirth" in FSA.

About TWW's ending I think that there is no other Hyrule after it, based on the words of King Daphnes who forbade Link and Zelda to name any other land "Hyrule". Phantom Hourglass will most definitely tell us the answer to that question - if at PH's ending no new Hyrule is found, I'll take that as Nintendo's sign that none of the old Zelda games take place after TWW+PH.

Nice! So we get OoT--TWW--END. What about the Four Swords games? Since the Dark World exists, I think we should place them after OoT or ALttP. We know that any game can't come between the IW and ALttP. So we get for the child timeline OoT--ALttP--TMC--FS--FSA because I see no problem if the IW is the same as ALttP in a split timenline. So now the question is: where to place LoZ and AoL, before or after the FS games? Do you all agree on this?

Anyway, here's a wilder timeline if you believe that the MS can't be used after ALttP: OoT--TWW and LoZ--AoL--OoT--ALttP. But again, we have the same question as above. Personally, I don't like the later theory.

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 5. XIII

Edited by Doopliss, 07 July 2006 - 10:22 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

The Oracle games can be after ALttP. The Master Sword in the oracle games is not part of the other master sword's continuity. I don't think it should be counted because it can be found with multiple methods, one of which involves turning the Noble Sword into the Master Sword. It is even possible for Link to get the Master Sword twice.

[Jumbie]

Doopliss: Nice! So we get OoT--TWW--END.

Absolutely

Doopliss: What about the Four Swords games? Since the Dark World exists, I think we should place them after OoT or ALttP. We know that any game can't come between the IW and ALttP.

Well, FSA includes a Dark World that resembles Hyrule but at the same time does not look as tainted as in ALttP. Could FSA happen before ALttP? Unlikely, because, what about the whole Ganon thing then?!
It could be placed anytime after ALttP though, if we assume that FSA's Dark World is actually the restored Sacred Realm. There are normal houses in that world, and it's really not more dangerous than Hyrule. FSA's Ganon was most likely not in there during the game. The Sages' Seal has been broken since the events of ALttP, which explains in FSA the countless passages between the two worlds.

Doopliss: So we get for the child timeline OoT--ALttP--TMC--FS--FSA because I see no problem if the IW is the same as ALttP in a split timenline. So now the question is: where to place LoZ and AoL, before or after the FS games? Do you all agree on this?

Wait, TMC is a moot issue. I'm sure many of us would place it before OoT, which automatically makes TMC exist in both timelines. Although TMC's credits imply that it was concepted to be the first ever Zelda game, which Aonuma also claimed, I would not yet completely subscribe to that one possibility.
All I know is that it should happen anytime before ALttP, because we directly experience the making of one pair of Pegasus Boots (of course in FSA there are plenty of them, but that's for gameplay mechanics), and the origins of the Ocarina of Winds (with its corresponding bird Zeffa that's also in ALttP) are given in TMC.
One argument against separating TMC and FS+FSA, by putting OoT and ALttP in between, could be that the respective backstory legends always remain silent about either Ganon or Vaati. At least FSA clarifies at many points that it features the same Link as FS.

The Zol: The Oracle games can be after ALttP. The Master Sword in the oracle games is not part of the other master sword's continuity. I don't think it should be counted because it can be found with multiple methods, one of which involves turning the Noble Sword into the Master Sword. It is even possible for Link to get the Master Sword twice.

Exactly. Oracles is after ALttP; nevertheless the Master Sword can sleep forever (except for KnS) since it doesn't appear in LoZ+AoL. Rather than that, LoZ features the White Sword, the name of which was re-used in TMC where it was the initial form of the Four Sword. To re-use such an unspectacular name in a new Zelda game again is a very strong hint at some kind of connection between TMC and LoZ. What do you think of it?

[Hero of Slime]

If TMC is the first game in the timeline then the White Sword in TMC and the White Sword in LoZ can not be related. I think the connection is name only.

[Fyxe]

The Oracle games can be after ALttP. The Master Sword in the oracle games is not part of the other master sword's continuity. I don't think it should be counted because it can be found with multiple methods, one of which involves turning the Noble Sword into the Master Sword. It is even possible for Link to get the Master Sword twice.

I think the Noble Sword was meant to BE the Master Sword, and all you do is unlock it's power. That's why the Noble Sword is in the Lost Woods in Oracle of Seasons.

I don't think you can judge whether an item is canon or not simply because you can get it different ways. That's just the way the Oracle games are designed. You might as well argue that Onox and Veran aren't canon because we can't tell which one Link fought against first. Therefore, since there are multiple ways of facing either Onox or Veran, and multiple ways to enter the Room of Rites, then by your logic none of the methods are canon.