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#61 Hero of Legend

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 10:07 AM

Where are we told that anyone who isn't evil can hold the MS? Quotes?

Where are we told that only the Hero can hold it?

And if someone can hold the MS, they are essentially wielding it.

Yes, but there is a difference. You see, as stated in ALttP, and shown in TWW, only Link can wield the MS with the power to repel evil. For anyone else (including Zelda) it's just a normal sword.

The fact that Zelda was holding the MS suggested to me that she is somehow related to the Knights of Hyrule - i.e. either one of her ancestor Kings was also a Knight (like King Arthur), or he married the daughter from one of the Knights families.


If that was the case, why didnt it glow when she held it?

Edited by Hero of Legend, 11 July 2006 - 10:22 AM.


#62 Fyxe

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 10:22 AM

The MS in OoT is left in the ToT which is located in the same region we see in the MS in aLttP. This place is near woods which are pushed back due to the castle being there. If the castle were to have moved, and all but the pedistal were to collapse, it would be in the correct place for aLttP.


That's all very, very vague and opinionated. I don't think it's smart to base an idea on in-game geography.

As for the basement, we can assume that the castle was rebuilt over the ToT in WW Universe. The MS need not have moved in either cases.

And somehow the pedestal sunk about 20 foot.

However, having the MS as an upgrade of a different sword is crazy.


The Noble Sword IS the Master Sword. Just like the White Sword is the Four Sword. How is that crazy?

Having a bunch of Zoras owning the MS when only those of the bloodline of knights can hold it is even crazier.

Since when can only one of the bloodline hold it? And as for 'bunch of Zoras'... You know nothing about the particular Zoras. None of us do. But you'd be wrong to assume that a hero just randomly gave some Zoras a super-powerful magical sword of legend.

OoXs MS is not only divorced and contradictory to what we know about the MS from other games, but is also an optional part to booth.


It's not contradictory - it looks the same, it's blue in hue, it fires sword beams, it's called 'legendary', it's the most powerful (regular) sword in the game and it can hurt Ganon easily. Oh, and it's called the Master Sword. Oh, AND it can be found in the Lost Woods. Hell, as swords go, it's virtually identical.

As for the optional thing, that's irrelevant.

However, on the subject of OoX placement. I'm having trouble working out why the Dark World is still there when the Essence of the Triforce said the DW would seise to exist once Link touched the Triforce. Maybe we should rethink where OoX should go? I hope not :S

She said it would 'surely' vanish. We are not given a timescale, and the Essense did not take into account the existence of beings who want to increase it's influence. The goal of Onox and Veran is to increase the Dark World's strength - implication being that it is waning, but their continued existence keeps it going. Ganon would restore it completely.

The list you're referring to was the one in the Zelda Manga I believe. If not then please provide a link.


I heard a similar list was also found on part of the Nintendo Japanese website, but without zethar or someone around to confirm this I can't be sure. But the Zelda mangas were produced with a fair chunk of Nintendo involvement, anyway.

As for the Zelda video, it was produced by Enterbrain! which is a Japanese magazine publisher (behind the Famitsu game mags).

Hardly disreptutable or anything then.

Although they had many Nintendo reps interviewed, a chart from them (unless in an interview) does not hold as much weight as a chart from Nintendo themselves.


I'm not sure about a chart, but I know that KnS has it's own section on the video. The CD-i Zelda do not, of course.

Not to mention that we still don't even have a translation for the video.

That would be great, but unfortunately yes, we don't.

Oh and Finally, the video was released in 2000, whilst the seminar was given in 2004.


Irrelevant. They're more likely to talk about KnS closer to when it was released.

The GDC (Game Developers Conference) is a place where game companies all over the world come to talk about their games. The talk was given in Japannese and the conference was held in the US.

Ah, the GDC. I presume it was in Japanese because Eiji and many of the other attendants were Japanese. I expect there was a translator, so what language the people were talking was irrelevant. The thing is, if he had mentioned KnS, everyone would go 'wha, wait a sec, what's that one'. Kodai no Sekiban is the sort of game that required a seminar all on it's *own* due to it being rather obscure and unique.

Finally, how do you have one sword being the possession of Zoras for generations AND being an upgrade of the Noble Sword AND being in a different countries Lost Woods? It's impossible for all those situations to reconsile without excessive fanfiction.


...Not all of the events occur in the same moment. That's clearly impossible. One of the events occurs. Which one does or which one doesn't is irrelevant. It sounds like you merely have a problem with the Oracle games themselves, because that sort of problem is common when you put it in a timeline - the game is different depending on which game you play first.

EDIT: I apologise for the excessive use of the word 'irrelevant'. But some points being made *are*.

Edited by Fyxe, 11 July 2006 - 10:26 AM.


#63 Jumbie

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 03:29 PM

Fyxe: The Lost Woods are massive. They stretch beyond Hyrule's boarders. I think the Lost Woods in Holodrum are actually meant to be the same woods.


(Oops, I've put the Lost Woods into OoA instead of OoS... :blink: )
Well, you can get around to assuming just anything, with a little help from fan fiction ;) But honestly, the Lost Woods of Holodrum are to the north-east, just like ALttP's Lost Woods are, so how could they possibly span the borders of both countries? From the directions, we also know that the LW's in ALttP are totally different ones than in OoT. This fact makes clear that "Lost Woods" is nothing but a description of the type of forest that exists in Hyrule and neighbouring countries.

The fact that the Master Sword is an upgrade of the Noble Sword is irrelevant. The Master Sword is upgraded three times in ALttP. The upgrade of the Noble Sword in the Oracle games reveals it to be the Master Sword. The Noble Sword is virtually identical to the Master Sword anyway, and this isn't coincidence.

Sure, ALttP has the Master Sword upgraded to more powerful swords, but in Oracles it's the other way round: a not so strong sword is upgraded to the Master Sword. This makes absolutely no sense, thus the one in Oracles is not the true Master Sword.

Person =/= sword, so that arguement is a little irrelevant, ne?


Not irrelavant at all. One should think it easier to rebuild a copy of the Master Sword than to reincarnate a person. Since things cannot be reincarnated, the Oracles' Master Sword is not the OoT/ALttP/TWW's Master Sword, but a copy at best.

Who said the hero was Link? And it's not a tiny bit of evidence, it's in-game dialogue. It doesn't matter what happened *exactly*, but we shouldn't just ignore what a character says just because they don't give us all the details.

That's just it - the hero mentioned by that Zora cannot have been Link. Since every single hero that appeared in Hyrule throughout history was Link, nobody else could have picked up the true Master Sword and given it to a tribe far away from the Kingdom of Hyrule. And I'm not ignoring what that character says - his words are totally true if the sword he refers to is a copy of the Hyrulean Master Sword, given to his people as a present from the neighbouring kingdom, if you will.

None of those things you've cited are acceptable reasons for why it isn't canon.


That's why I said, "Personally I don't say it's non-canonic as it fits well with everything else, but please don't build your theories upon KnS."

It doesn't actually affect the timeline in a great way but it does affect the series as a whole, as it introduced a bunch of new stuff.

Could you please tell me more about the innovations it made? Logically, I've never played KnS and only know so much about it...

SOAP: I'm not talking about a castle. I'm talking about Din. And you can't exactly recruit someone of a dead race. No one in ALttP refers to themselves a Hylian, despite being of Hylian decent. They're too mixed with outside races. Someone calling themself Hylian after ALttP, a soldier no less, would be increibly inaccurate. If OoX was meant to be after ALttP, then he should've said he was Hyrulean soldier, which would've referred to his nationality, not ethnicity.


I see. But we shouldn't understand it in that narrow sense. OoX is with 99% certainty set sometime after ALttP, so "Hylian" must indeed refer to that they are not Gorons or Zora, but humans who come from Hyrule (the Royal Family of which is still Hylian as long as their ears are pointed). Remember, many people mix up the terms "Hylian" and "Hyrulean" carelessly, and with the Oracles not programmed by Nintendo themselves...

mohammedali: However, on the subject of OoX placement. I'm having trouble working out why the Dark World is still there when the Essence of the Triforce said the DW would seise to exist once Link touched the Triforce. Maybe we should rethink where OoX should go? I hope not :S


Nah, no rethinking about OoX' placement needed. If you refer to Twinrova saying that they brought Onox and Veran back from a "Dark Realm": this may or may not be a different world than the Dark World (though it could likely have the same name in Japanese).
Earlier, I've posted some things about the Dark World after ALttP, which you might want to read ;)

#64 Fyxe

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 06:02 PM

Well, you can get around to assuming just anything, with a little help from fan fiction ;) But honestly, the Lost Woods of Holodrum are to the north-east, just like ALttP's Lost Woods are, so how could they possibly span the borders of both countries?


Haven't you ever been up Death Mountain? What is beyond Death Mountain? Woods. Lots and lots of woods. The Lost Woods goes on. It could easily connect to Holodrum somewhere, when you see how vast it is.

From the directions, we also know that the LW's in ALttP are totally different ones than in OoT.

Not necessarily - we don't know what is beyond the clouds surrounding Hyrule's map, we don't know how far the Lost Woods spans in either game, and again, the creators like to rearrange Hyrule, so it's placement in OoT doesn't necessarily bare any connection to ALttP.

This fact makes clear that "Lost Woods" is nothing but a description of the type of forest that exists in Hyrule and neighbouring countries.


The Lost Woods are some woods, they don't just call every forest 'the Lost Woods', that would be silly.

Sure, ALttP has the Master Sword upgraded to more powerful swords, but in Oracles it's the other way round: a not so strong sword is upgraded to the Master Sword. This makes absolutely no sense, thus the one in Oracles is not the true Master Sword.

Tell that to the White Sword and the Four Sword. Your reasoning for why it makes no sense makes no sense.

Not irrelavant at all. One should think it easier to rebuild a copy of the Master Sword than to reincarnate a person.


Considering how often Link and Zelda are reincarnated, I severely doubt that.

Since things cannot be reincarnated, the Oracles' Master Sword is not the OoT/ALttP/TWW's Master Sword, but a copy at best.

Why? WHY can't it be the same sword? Surely if it was meant to be a copy then it would of said 'copy of a legendary sword' and not 'legendary sword'.

That's just it - the hero mentioned by that Zora cannot have been Link.


It could of been *A* Link. Or just A hero. Does it matter?

Since every single hero that appeared in Hyrule throughout history was Link,

ASSUMPTION ALARM, ASSUMPTION ALARM.

nobody else could have picked up the true Master Sword


Assumption alarm.

his words are totally true if the sword he refers to is a copy of the Hyrulean Master Sword, given to his people as a present from the neighbouring kingdom, if you will.

Yeah, cos copies of legendary swords ALSO fire beams and kill demons.
You can't just copy the Master Sword. Else everyone would have one.

Could you please tell me more about the innovations it made? Logically, I've never played KnS and only know so much about it...


There's a whole topic about it - I had a massive post describing many of the innovations. Basically, it provided a basis for Majora's Mask's type of gameplay, improved on the Pegasus Boots, introduced a new potion, introduced time-related rainstorms and other things.

If you refer to Twinrova saying that they brought Onox and Veran back from a "Dark Realm": this may or may not be a different world than the Dark World (though it could likely have the same name in Japanese).


It is. Same name.

#65 mohammedali

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 06:06 PM

Where are we told that only the Hero can hold it?

We are told that only the Hero can receive the sword in aLttP. Given that we see the sword put in the pedistal in aLttP, there is no way a bunch of Zoras end up possessing it in time for OoX.

Yes, but there is a difference. You see, as stated in ALttP, and shown in TWW, only Link can wield the MS with the power to repel evil. For anyone else (including Zelda) it's just a normal sword.

That's an interesting theory. I'll have a look out for differences when Zelda holds the MS in WW.

The Noble Sword IS the Master Sword. Just like the White Sword is the Four Sword. How is that crazy?

It's crazy because Link upgrading the Noble sword into the MS is supposed to fit with the Zoras possessing the MS for generations. It's a contradiction. It doesn't work. These optional MS retrievals are not consistant with one another at all.

Since when can only one of the bloodline hold it? And as for 'bunch of Zoras'... You know nothing about the particular Zoras. None of us do. But you'd be wrong to assume that a hero just randomly gave some Zoras a super-powerful magical sword of legend.

Which is why I DON'T assume that a hero game some Zoras a super-powerful magical sword of legend... and which is why I take these MS appearences in OoX to be easter eggs.

It's not contradictory - it looks the same, it's blue in hue, it fires sword beams, it's called 'legendary', it's the most powerful (regular) sword in the game and it can hurt Ganon easily. Oh, and it's called the Master Sword. Oh, AND it can be found in the Lost Woods. Hell, as swords go, it's virtually identical.

It's contradictory to itself in the ways it can be obtained. How can Zora's own a sword for generations that Link recently created from the Noble Sword? It just doesn't work.

As for the optional thing, that's irrelevant.

Irrelevantt to what?

She said it would 'surely' vanish. We are not given a timescale, and the Essense did not take into account the existence of beings who want to increase it's influence. The goal of Onox and Veran is to increase the Dark World's strength - implication being that it is waning, but their continued existence keeps it going. Ganon would restore it completely.

I guess that makes sence. I think there may be some quotes that support this. I'll have a look into it.

I heard a similar list was also found on part of the Nintendo Japanese website, but without zethar or someone around to confirm this I can't be sure. But the Zelda mangas were produced with a fair chunk of Nintendo involvement, anyway.

The mangas aren't written by Nintendo. In fact, their involvement is minimal so any list by the manga is not necessarily endorced by Nintendo.

Hardly disreptutable or anything then.

I agree. They are quite reputable. That is why they recalled AST and mentioned it. However, as they are not Nintendo, them recognising AST is not the same as Nintendo recognising AST.

I'm not sure about a chart, but I know that KnS has it's own section on the video. The CD-i Zelda do not, of course.

But the video was not made by Nintendo so it's not canon. I haven't seen any canon material even mentioning AST.

Irrelevant. They're more likely to talk about KnS closer to when it was released.

True. Or they could have retroactively changed their stance on the game.

Ah, the GDC. I presume it was in Japanese because Eiji and many of the other attendants were Japanese. I expect there was a translator, so what language the people were talking was irrelevant. The thing is, if he had mentioned KnS, everyone would go 'wha, wait a sec, what's that one'. Kodai no Sekiban is the sort of game that required a seminar all on it's *own* due to it being rather obscure and unique.

It didn't even make the list of Zelda games. Heck, not even a throwaway comment. Even Smash Bros got that. I agree they could have done a whole seminar on AST, but that's irrelevant. If AST was part of the Zelda franchise, then it should have been mentioned.

...Not all of the events occur in the same moment. That's clearly impossible. One of the events occurs. Which one does or which one doesn't is irrelevant. It sounds like you merely have a problem with the Oracle games themselves, because that sort of problem is common when you put it in a timeline - the game is different depending on which game you play first.

From the game we collect information about the MS. Even if different events lead to different information being revealed, we still take the information to be true. If Link completes sequence 1 instead of sequence 2, it's not going to change the past of the MS is it? Obviously not. Therefore, any information we are told about the MS still holds irrespectve of Links actions.
The information we have from OoX about the MS is that it has been in the possession of the Zoras for years, that it is in the Lost Woods, and that Link can upgrade to it using the Noble Sword. These facts should hold irrespective of Links actions even if Links actions are how we find out the information. The facts however, contradict each other.
Having said all that, there is little point me going on about this. I was merely pointing out how OoX MS is either more than one sword, or a poorly done easter egg. In any case, what ever you believe, it doesn't change the timeline. With the whole OoX MS being optional, you can place it whereever you like.

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Edited by Showsni, 11 July 2006 - 06:14 PM.


#66 Fyxe

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 07:08 PM

We are told that only the Hero can receive the sword in aLttP. Given that we see the sword put in the pedistal in aLttP, there is no way a bunch of Zoras end up possessing it in time for OoX.


A hero gives it to them. Perfectly possible. How it happened we don't know, but it's perfectly possible.

It's crazy because Link upgrading the Noble sword into the MS is supposed to fit with the Zoras possessing the MS for generations. It's a contradiction. It doesn't work. These optional MS retrievals are not consistant with one another at all.

That's just the way the Oracle games work. Does it actually *matter* how Link comes across the Master Sword? Does each method actually change anything important as far as the games are concerned? No, not really.

Which is why I DON'T assume that a hero game some Zoras a super-powerful magical sword of legend... and which is why I take these MS appearences in OoX to be easter eggs.


It's not an assumption if it's based off the dialogue.

It's contradictory to itself in the ways it can be obtained. How can Zora's own a sword for generations that Link recently created from the Noble Sword? It just doesn't work.

It doesn't happen both ways in a single playthrough, does it?

How can Link meet Zelda for the first time in Holodrum AND Laby-thingia? Answer - he doesn't.

Irrelevantt to what?


Irrelevant to whether it is 'canon' or not. Canon isn't just when a fan feels like it's canon or not. Optional =/= uncanon.

The mangas aren't written by Nintendo. In fact, their involvement is minimal so any list by the manga is not necessarily endorced by Nintendo.

No, not necessarily. But Anouma had more involvement in the mangas than you'd think.

I agree. They are quite reputable. That is why they recalled AST and mentioned it. However, as they are not Nintendo, them recognising AST is not the same as Nintendo recognising AST.


But something endorced by Nintendo implies that Nintendo also endorces it as part of the series. Hell, why wouldn't they? They made the game.

I haven't seen any canon material even mentioning AST.

That's hardly surprising. It didn't exactly have an instruction manual or a box or anything, did it? And it was released only in Japan, awhile ago now, so any promotion by Nintendo about the game would be hella hard to find.

True. Or they could have retroactively changed their stance on the game.


I doubt they'd do that when there's no need to.

It didn't even make the list of Zelda games. Heck, not even a throwaway comment. Even Smash Bros got that. I agree they could have done a whole seminar on AST, but that's irrelevant. If AST was part of the Zelda franchise, then it should have been mentioned.

It's CLEARLY part of the franchise, that's just a simple fact. The fact that it was not mentioned in a seminar is not evidence enough to pretend it never existed.

Having said all that, there is little point me going on about this. I was merely pointing out how OoX MS is either more than one sword, or a poorly done easter egg. In any case, what ever you believe, it doesn't change the timeline. With the whole OoX MS being optional, you can place it whereever you like.


Poorly done? I don't see how changing the background of the sword is at all important, really. Considering the whole sequence of the Oracle games is optional, then what does it matter if the backstory of the Oracle games is optional? If you imagine looking back through time from TLoZ to ALttP, can you say whether Link got the Magic Meter upgrade or not? Can you say whether he found the Golden Bee? Can you say whether he upgraded the Master Sword? No, you can't. If that history is up in the air, then what does it matter of the Oracle game's history is also up in the air?

Edited by Fyxe, 11 July 2006 - 07:43 PM.


#67 Jumbie

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 07:47 PM

Fyxe: Haven't you ever been up Death Mountain? What is beyond Death Mountain? Woods. Lots and lots of woods. The Lost Woods goes on. It could easily connect to Holodrum somewhere, when you see how vast it is.


I dislike the theory that the woods go from Hyrule's northwest corner along north of the Death Mountain range, around Zora's Fountain and to the east where once Kokiri Forest was (later the Eastern area). Also, AoL's overworld makes clear that the northward extension of the DM range is actually 10 times larger than the horizontal view we usually see. There are some trees on AoL's DM range, but by no means complete woods.

The Lost Woods are some woods, they don't just call every forest 'the Lost Woods', that would be silly.

Yeah, it is silly indeed, but the truth. I guess in 80% of the Zelda games, the respective forest is called "Lost Woods". Exceptions are the Maze Woods in LoZ, and the woods in LA.

Tell that to the White Sword and the Four Sword. Your reasoning for why it makes no sense makes no sense.


We've seen the White Sword becoming the Four Sword, but the Master Sword has always been the Master Sword, never a Noble Sword to start with. In a way, OoX is corrupting that fact to achieve a more interesting gameplay.

ASSUMPTION ALARM, ASSUMPTION ALARM.

So what?! Assumptions have to be made to develop a theory. Anything in Zelda that is not shown visually or textually is simply to be excluded, or else it would be fan fiction. We never saw or read of any other hero than Link roaming Hyrule, so we have to assume there was never one.

Yeah, cos copies of legendary swords ALSO fire beams and kill demons.
You can't just copy the Master Sword. Else everyone would have one.


I can't tell you what sense that makes, you'd have to ask Capcom.


Overall, we've once again arrived at a point where we're all running in circles. We could go on and on... @_@
It's been made clear what Fyxe thinks, and what mohammedali and Jumbie think. Even though Fyxe thinks she is right, it will be in vain to try and convince the other two, whose arguing is equivalent to hers. Thus I will not respond to this same issues any more, and it would be best for everyone else not to, either.
...That is, granted you're not interested in a merry-go-round discussion!

Ah by the way, this is just meant as benevolent advice, so don't misunderstand it as some command of mine again, Fyxe ;)

#68 Arturo

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 06:18 AM

"For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane. It was called the Master Sword, and it is said that only a true hero could use it."ALttP Manual, Translation from Japanese by Zethar-II.

I am not saying that the MS in OoX is non-canon, but that it isn't the same sword as in ALttP. This sword must remain in Hyrule, because it was made to fight a posible evil holder of the Triforce. It would be stupid to bring the MS to Labrynna or Holodrum because there is no Triforce there and there is also no way to bring it there (because it would be separated from it's holder, like in TWW BS). The MS must remain in Hyrule.


But the sword in OoX may have a simmillar function and powers, because after all, the MS wasn't made by the gods by but the people. So, it is a MS, but not the same as the ALttP-KnS-OoT-TWW one.

#69 mohammedali

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 07:35 AM

That's just the way the Oracle games work. Does it actually *matter* how Link comes across the Master Sword? Does each method actually change anything important as far as the games are concerned? No, not really.

The point is that OoX doesn't work if the MS is one sword. The different facts about the MS in the game contradict each other if the MS is supposed to be the same sword suggesting either there are multiple MSs, or it's just a silly easter egg. There is no other way it can work.

It doesn't happen both ways in a single playthrough, does it?

It's not difficult Fyxe. Irrespective of what Link does in OoX, it's not going to change the past/facts about the MS. If we find out different facts about the MS (irrespective of the path Link takes to find them), then the facts still hold.

How can Link meet Zelda for the first time in Holodrum AND Laby-thingia? Answer - he doesn't.

That's different as it's something that IS effected by the path Link takes.
MS past NOT effected by Links actions in OoX. Where Link first meets Zelda IS effected by Links actions.

Irrelevant to whether it is 'canon' or not. Canon isn't just when a fan feels like it's canon or not. Optional =/= uncanon.

Let's try again. aLttP ending which is 100% canon says the MS sleeps forever. If OoX comes after aLttP then the MS is not to feature in it. The MS is an optional item in OoX - therefore to make it consistant, the optional MS in OoX does not happen.
To spell it out: A canon fact holds more weight than an optional point.

No, not necessarily. But Anouma had more involvement in the mangas than you'd think.

The list was still not released by Nintendo, but another company.

But something endorced by Nintendo implies that Nintendo also endorces it as part of the series. Hell, why wouldn't they? They made the game.

The CD-i games were endorced by Nintendo, but they are not part of the Zelda franchise.

That's hardly surprising. It didn't exactly have an instruction manual or a box or anything, did it? And it was released only in Japan, awhile ago now, so any promotion by Nintendo about the game would be hella hard to find.

My point is that there is nothing supporting it being canon, and lists supporting it isn't canon as it is not part of the franchise.

It's CLEARLY part of the franchise, that's just a simple fact. The fact that it was not mentioned in a seminar is not evidence enough to pretend it never existed.

No. It's not part of the franchise according to Nintendo. I'm not saying it never existed. The CD-i games existed as well, but they are not part of the franchise either according to Nintendo. Neither is AST. Aonuma said what is part of the franchise himself. Get over it.

Poorly done? I don't see how changing the background of the sword is at all important, really. Considering the whole sequence of the Oracle games is optional, then what does it matter if the backstory of the Oracle games is optional? If you imagine looking back through time from TLoZ to ALttP, can you say whether Link got the Magic Meter upgrade or not? Can you say whether he found the Golden Bee? Can you say whether he upgraded the Master Sword? No, you can't. If that history is up in the air, then what does it matter of the Oracle game's history is also up in the air?

The difference... for the last time... is that the other optional points you mentoined a) don't contradict the existing canon, and B) don't contradict other ingame facts about the same item. If Link finds the golden bee in aLttP, it doesn't contradict any canon, so the optional point can happen. This is NOT true for the MS in OoX. On top of that, the OoX contradicts itself about it's past. I'm not saying anything too difficult Fyxe.

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#70 SOAP

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 01:01 PM

Guys, guys, GUYS. Why does OoX EVEN need to come after ALttP in a SPLIT timeline. If you go with something like what I have, the MS in OoX wouldn't contradict ALttP's ending nor would it be neccessarily the end all be, be all of swords. It'd be a sword that all those years became lost or abandoned for so long everyone could've forgot what it's original name was. It wouldn't be neccessary anymore because either other weapons have surpassed it much like the silver arrows in LoZ or Ganon has just become weaker over the years.

#71 Fyxe

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 02:10 PM

I dislike the theory that the woods go from Hyrule's northwest corner along north of the Death Mountain range, around Zora's Fountain and to the east where once Kokiri Forest was (later the Eastern area).


It's not a theory, it's a simple fact that the woods go beyond Death Mountain. All you have to do is go up Death Mountain in ALttP and look. How far it reaches is another matter.

Also, AoL's overworld makes clear that the northward extension of the DM range is actually 10 times larger than the horizontal view we usually see. There are some trees on AoL's DM range, but by no means complete woods.

TLoZ and AoL use a completely different map to other Zelda games. Honestly, I think arguing about stuff based in in-game geography is rather pointless.

We've seen the White Sword becoming the Four Sword, but the Master Sword has always been the Master Sword, never a Noble Sword to start with.


...The Four Sword was always the Four Sword until TMC. What's your point? If you find a rusted magical sword that's called the Noble Sword and you later find out that it's actually the legendary Master Sword, what's the problem?

We never saw or read of any other hero than Link roaming Hyrule, so we have to assume there was never one.

There was the hero in TMC's backstory, who wasn't named. Why can't there be more than one hero? That's a massive assumption to make.

I can't tell you what sense that makes, you'd have to ask Capcom.


No, YOU are the one coming up with the idea that it is a copy, not Capcom.

...That is, granted you're not interested in a merry-go-round discussion!

Whee. Round and round. I find it hard to drop an argument if people start insulting my intelligence for no good reason. And with that, onto mohammedali's comments...

The point is that OoX doesn't work if the MS is one sword. The different facts about the MS in the game contradict each other if the MS is supposed to be the same sword suggesting either there are multiple MSs, or it's just a silly easter egg. There is no other way it can work.


Yes. It. Can. On a single playthrough, there are no contradictions. On a second playthrough, the backstory of the MS might be different. Big whoop. I hardly see this as a problem, it's merely a result of the way the Oracle games are designed.

It's not difficult Fyxe.

...Hey, Mr. Patronisatron, instead of thinking I'm the stupid one, open your mind for a second.

Irrespective of what Link does in OoX, it's not going to change the past/facts about the MS.


That's true. But the ORDER you play the games DOES affect the past about the sword. And so what? The order you play the games affects the present history and the order you play the games affects the past history. What does that matter to anything?

If we find out different facts about the MS (irrespective of the path Link takes to find them), then the facts still hold.

No, because that's not the way the game is designed. On a single playthrough, one fact holds true, and on another playthrough, another fact holds true. Which one is the true fact? You might as well ask which country Link saves first, or what name Link should give to that kid, or whether the queen's message to the skeletal pirate guy gets to him or not. It's as simple as asking which game you play first. And since there is no answer, then you'll just have to deal with there being two possiblities.

That's different as it's something that IS effected by the path Link takes.
MS past NOT effected by Links actions in OoX. Where Link first meets Zelda IS effected by Links actions.


Actually, it's not Link's actions at all. It's the Triforce's actions. If the present is variable, then why can't the past be the same? What difference does it make?

Let's try again. aLttP ending which is 100% canon says the MS sleeps forever. If OoX comes after aLttP then the MS is not to feature in it. The MS is an optional item in OoX - therefore to make it consistant, the optional MS in OoX does not happen.

Why does optional mean it's less canon? In what way does that affect the rules of canon in any shape or form? Why not argue that the ALttP ending was just retroactively changed, or that the ending was written from the perspective of the moment rather than some all-seeing narration?

To spell it out: A canon fact holds more weight than an optional point.


Why? Because you say so?

My point is that there is nothing supporting it being canon, and lists supporting it isn't canon as it is not part of the franchise.

...It was made by Nintendo, if you ask me that's ENOUGH.

No. It's not part of the franchise according to Nintendo.


You're basing that on one seminar. What rubbish.

Aonuma said what is part of the franchise himself. Get over it.

Get over your sodding ego. All he did was give a list in a seminar. There are perfectly logical reason for why he didn't mention KnS, and not being part of the franchise is not one of them. That's jumping to big conclusions just to support your own biased viewpoint.

I'm not saying anything too difficult Fyxe.


Seriously, shut the fuck up now, I feel I should report you if you keep treating me like I'm an idiot.

#72 mohammedali

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 06:27 PM

Seriously, shut the fuck up now, I feel I should report you if you keep treating me like I'm an idiot.

Report me? Fyxe, you've accussed everyone of insulting your intellegence and being rude, but look at your comments... The way you talk to people is so disrespectable. If you keep hearing the same arguement from me or anyone else, it's possibly because you practically ignore whatever was just said. Comments like 'shut the fuck up now' suggest that if anyone needs to be banned, it's you.
I don't plan on replying to any of your posts until you learn how to talk to people better, so don't bother replying to what I say either.

Mohammed Ali

#73 Fyxe

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 07:07 PM

That's silly. I don't insult people's intelligence. I may be blunt sometimes but I don't act like people are goddamn morons for having their own concepts on things.

I think after...

It's not difficult Fyxe.

Get over it.

The difference... for the last time...

And finally...

I'm not saying anything too difficult Fyxe.


I have every right to ask you to shut up. No matter how blunt and sometimes, yes, even slightly rude I can be, I don't treat people like they are idiots.

And at least when I'm pissed off with someone I'll come right out and say it instead of hiding behind snide comments at their intelligence.

EDIT: I just want to add, then I'll drop it for the sake of everyone else...

Fyxe, you've accussed everyone of insulting your intellegence and being rude,

Um, I haven't. I think it's mostly been you. I don't remember pointing that allegation at other people.

it's possibly because you practically ignore whatever was just said.


And that's just a blatant lie.

Edited by Fyxe, 12 July 2006 - 07:14 PM.


#74 mohammedali

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 07:26 PM

Fyxe, I have never put anyone on a block list, but the fact that you feel you can be that rude to people without any reaction is not going to happen. I'm not the only one who you've been accusing of insulting your intellegence. Heck, in this thread alone, you've told Jumbie he was doing the same thing. It seems you're often having a slanging match with one person or another and I don't want to be a part of it.
Personally, I'd rather come here to talk to people who share my interest in the Zelda timeline, than continue a pointless, fruitless and circular discussion with you.

Continuing with posts relevant to the topic, I was wondering what people thought about for the placement of the FS games (FS and FSA). I'm a little torn on this topic, as one of my splits requires it to be in the same timeline as aLttP, and the other requires it to be in the same timeline as WW. Guess we should look at the info we get in the games.

Mohammed Ali

Edited by mohammedali, 12 July 2006 - 08:10 PM.


#75 Jumbie

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 07:46 PM

mohammedali: Continuing with posts relevant to the topic, I was wondering what people thought about for the placement of the FS games (FS and FSA). I'm a little torn on this topic, as one of my splits requires it to be in the same timeline as aLttP, and the other requires it to be in the same timeline as WW. Guess we should look at the info we get in the games.


Very good idea! ;) Let me pick up where this thread last gave any sign of moving forward:

FSA includes a Dark World that resembles Hyrule but at the same time does not look as tainted as in ALttP. Could FSA happen before ALttP? Unlikely, because, what about the whole Ganon thing then?!
It could be placed anytime after ALttP though, if we assume that FSA's Dark World is actually the restored Sacred Realm. There are normal houses in that world, and it's really not more dangerous than Hyrule. FSA's Ganon was most likely not in there during the game. The Sages' Seal has been broken since the events of ALttP, which explains in FSA the countless passages between the two worlds.


Now give your views, everyone, so that we can work out the Perfect Split Timeline.

#76 Fyxe

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 07:53 PM

What is the relation of the Dark World in FSA and the Temple of Darkness and the Shadow Mirror (or whatever it's called...), I think those are the most important questions. The Dark World definitely seems darker and stronger around the region of Hyrule called the 'Dark World' (obviously).

EDIT: Oh, lookie, mohemmedali edited his post and added an extra rant aimed at me.

I'm not the only one who you've been accusing of insulting your intellegence. Heck, in this thread alone, you've told Jumbie he was doing the same thing.


Yes, I said it to Jumbie, and he's the only other one. You act like it's a constant long running theme. It isn't. Heck, I also took it back I believe because I misread. Or was that someone else? It doesn't matter, I didn't go around insulting him or anything. I'd also like to note that claiming that someone is insulting my intelligence is NOT being rude. It's me defending myself, and if people are treating me like an idiot (which is *rude*) then I have a right to defend myself.

It seems you're often having a slanging match with one person or another and I don't want to be a part of it.


I'm sorry, but this is remarkably hypocritical. You have always been incredibly quick to begin a 'slanging match' with me. In fact, out of everyone, you're the one who argues with me the most, often jumping at the chance, and you often talk down to me when you do so. Get off your high horse. You are no better than I.

Edited by Fyxe, 13 July 2006 - 06:17 PM.


#77 SOAP

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:24 PM

I like how my question was completely ignored. :(

#78 Fyxe

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 06:21 PM

Guys, guys, GUYS. Why does OoX EVEN need to come after ALttP in a SPLIT timeline. If you go with something like what I have, the MS in OoX wouldn't contradict ALttP's ending nor would it be neccessarily the end all be, be all of swords. It'd be a sword that all those years became lost or abandoned for so long everyone could've forgot what it's original name was. It wouldn't be neccessary anymore because either other weapons have surpassed it much like the silver arrows in LoZ or Ganon has just become weaker over the years.


I agree with that totally.

Sorry, SOAP, I don't know what else to say. ^^ But that's basically what I think anyhoo.

Edited by Fyxe, 13 July 2006 - 06:26 PM.


#79 Jumbie

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 09:10 PM

SOAP: I like how my question was completely ignored. :(


Sorry about that, but I thought trying to explain why OoX has to come after ALttP might lead into a pointless debate again. I actually thought most of us had agreed early in this thread that OoX follows some time after ALttP. There's no real need to put it somewhere else just for fun, so...

Fyxe: What is the relation of the Dark World in FSA and the Temple of Darkness and the Shadow Mirror (or whatever it's called...), I think those are the most important questions. The Dark World definitely seems darker and stronger around the region of Hyrule called the 'Dark World' (obviously).


Very good aspects! But, making sense of them is so hard... Anyway, I'll say what I remember:

The Temple of Darkness may look like Ganon's Tower, but the overworld map is giving a wrong image of it. The dungeon layout shows that it's hardly a tower, as it lacks any upper floors but instead has two basements. The temple was built near the Forest of Light to hide away a Dark Mirror in which a Dark Tribe was imprisoned. The Links discover that the mirror has been removed from its place by the reborn Ganondorf, who used it to create the Shadow Links. Since the Deku Scrubs in the forest are part of the Dark Tribe somehow, they worship Ganon and hope to spread their Lost Woods across the whole world. (Btw, there you have it: "Lost Woods" is a term for a wicked type of forest in Hyrule.) According to all of this, it really seems the darkness spreads from that temple, but I don't know if this relates in any way to the Dark World from ALttP. Could be a nice parallel to the Twilight Realm, though...

Something else to think about, is the Dark Mirror in any way related to the Magical Mirror from ALttP?

#80 SOAP

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 11:23 AM

Sorry about that, but I thought trying to explain why OoX has to come after ALttP might lead into a pointless debate again. I actually thought most of us had agreed early in this thread that OoX follows some time after ALttP. There's no real need to put it somewhere else just for fun, so...


I don't think it has to come after ALttP. Obviously not everyone is satisfied with placing it after ALttP because we're STILL arguing over the inconsistencies. I for one, argued against it from early on and still do. I think it works better with it's fellow Capcom games as they seem to have a continuity of their own and refer to each other [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] stronger than even most strictly Nintendo Zelda games. They can all be part of the child timeline. I'm not just putting there for fun. I explained a couple of ways it could feasibly work without the inconsistencies of putting it after ALttP.

Edited by SOAP, 14 July 2006 - 11:31 AM.


#81 Jumbie

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 03:01 PM

Hey, what's up with everyone - first the long-running Perfect Timeline thread was forsaken, and now the Perfect Split Timeline thread as well?! Are you all too busy with posting in those zillions of double-threads that were opened the last days? :(
I would've done a next step of my own here, but I cannot do a double-post, can I? I said what I know, and I thought that would be quite controversial... Maybe it's that you only look at threads where new posts were made, so now it's top-of-list, if that helps ;)

#82 Arturo

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 03:51 AM

Well, where were we?


Oh, yes: LA


Up to now, the timeline in which we have agreed is:

ALttP>LA>LoZ>AoL

Using the chronological order that Jumbie proposed the next candidate to be situated is...... OoT!!!!!!

With OoT begins the Split on the Split Timeline, so, now, not only we have to put OoT in a place, but decide what goes in the Child Timeline and what in the Adult one.

Let's discuss where OoT goes.


My proposal, that I believe to be a majoritarian one is:

OoT Adult
OoT Child>ALttP>LA>LoZ>AoL

#83 mohammedali

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 06:09 AM

Agreed, (with WW coming in Adult timeline as well). However, I was thinking we should look into what actually happens in OoT ending.

#84 Arturo

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 06:44 AM

However, I was thinking we should look into what actually happens in OoT ending.


Well, just in case you don't know how I see the OoT ening I will make a little summary:

Adult Ending: Link defeats Ganon. The Seven Sages Seal Ganon. Zelda sends Link back to the Child Timeline. (everything important: the Ocarina of Time, the Master Sword, the Triforce; is in both timelines) Link's ToC remains in the Adult Timeline (from the Adult Timeline perspective, from Link's he doesn't lose it) and is divided in 8 parts. And the rest is what we know.

Child Ending (the really confusing one): Link gets the MS and is sealed in the Sacred Realm. Ganondorf gets the Triforce (ToP goes to Ganondorf, ToC to Link and ToW remains with Ganon). Without physically going out of the Realm, his evil starts spreading across Hyrule. Ganondorf is sealed in the SR by the Sages' Seal from the Adult Timeline. Everything goes back to normal and Zelda returns to the Castle. Link comes from the Adult Timeline and tells Zelda and the King what has happened. After a time, Link goes to Termina, losing the ToC, that goes to Ganondorf.

This is my view, but I think you already knew it.

Anyone wants to kill me now?

EDIT:

Agreed, (with WW coming in Adult timeline as well).


Of course, but TWW wasn't on 1998

Edited by Arturo, 18 July 2006 - 12:44 PM.


#85 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 12:56 PM

Since things cannot be reincarnated


You could offend an animist or a theosophist with that statement.

#86 Jumbie

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 02:35 PM

Arturo: Using the chronological order that Jumbie proposed the next candidate to be situated is...... OoT!!!!!!


Ok ok, I'll finally accept that FSA is not of interest here :( Let's return to the same old story, OoT.
We all agree that ALttP, LA, LoZ and AoL happen after OoT's Child ending, so the Adult Timeline is still empty until we will get to 2003.
I suggest we remain silent about how exactly Ganon was sealed in the Child Timeline, because: who cares what stuff happens between the games? We only need to know how they are connected. Fact is, Ganon was definitely sealed one way or the other prior to ALttP, and he came by "the Triforce" (whatever portion of it is meant with that).

Next is MM: undoubtedly set directly after OoT's Child ending, centuries before ALttP. MM's ending proves that Link did return to Hyrule, but what he did afterwards is completely irrelevant to the timeline.

Haven't had any difficulties so far, but now we arrive once again at Oracles. Hey, I have a bad dja-v... <_<
Let's say they happen decades/centuries after ALttP. Now, LA's placement in relation to OoX is a pretty minor thing - you're all convinced LA is after ALttP, while I'm convinced it's after OoX. Let's just ignore that disagreement for the sake of saving time, and take both views as the "same" timeline.

#87 Hero of Slime

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 03:53 PM

We should not concern ourselves with the details of OoT's ending. Our theories differ greatly but they all have the same resolution, ALttP. The issue of the game order is more important than the details in between games.

Now I have been gone a long time so I do not know what you mean by "we will get to 2003".

#88 Jumbie

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 06:14 PM

Now I have been gone a long time so I do not know what you mean by "we will get to 2003".


Oh, we have just decided to work out the timeline according to the release of the games, so we currently have:
OoT > ALttP > LA > LoZ > AoL,
and in my last post I said that MM and OoX can also be included without disagreement. With "2003" I meant TWW, because that's when it was released, and TWW was the first game that could be placed in the Adult Timeline (and the only one still, until PH and TP come out..)

#89 Hero of Slime

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 06:40 PM

I would not say that TWW is the only game that can be in the adult timeline.

#90 Alardonin

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 08:35 PM

QUOTE(mohammedali @ Jul 11 2006, 11:08 AM) *

The MS in OoT is left in the ToT which is located in the same region we see in the MS in aLttP. This place is near woods which are pushed back due to the castle being there. If the castle were to have moved, and all but the pedistal were to collapse, it would be in the correct place for aLttP.


That's all very, very vague and opinionated. I don't think it's smart to base an idea on in-game geography.





ok lets think for a moment that the time betwen the legends does spand for miliions of years that would explain the changing of locales and the evolution of certain races in the story of zelda imagine this

from OOT to WW.

OOT-master sword in the temple of time

the years pass that area is engulf a litle by the rising of the sea

WW-and the castle is constructed in the midle of the sea on some rock to house the master sword in the pedestal of time,now i know a lot of people do not beleive in the master sword placement of the pedestal of time all the time that does not mean that i do but here it does not matter what i believe or not only the discussion.

hyrule is under the sea completely due to Nohansen wish.
fromWW to ALTTP
the years passes and the sea goes down forming a forest.folowing WW to this one must argue that the master sword is in the head of ganon but folowing this the pedestal of time never changes places so there is the possebility of the master sword being placed there again in another time after WW.

Im just stating this as an example of course this could also fall into place of a two line theory depends on what you see im just stating this to argue Mohammedeli statement.





QUOTE
ALttP:It is returned to its pedestal. And rests FOREVER (where forever means less than a year).


God, why are people so obsessed with that line? There's thousands of other lines in Zelda games that have turned out not to be 100% true or perfect and some lines that are just false.





maybe that line is 100% true after all the master sword does sleep for ever,but the most comon know theories being the LOZ and AOL after ALTTP im just going to folow in your beliefs,there is no reference to the master sword know to the people. there is the master sword but not with the same name so one could say that indeed the mastersword those rest forever since it was not know to be again with that name later on the legends acording to that placement of the legends.




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