409 replies to this topic

[Hero of Slime]

The pedestals were the Master Sword sits in TWW and ALttP are not the Pedestal of Time. Only the Hero of Time can take the master sword from the pedestal of time. The Links in ALttP and TWW are not the Hero of Time but they are still able to take the master sword. The master sword would have to be moved to a new pedestal in order for someone who is not the hero of time to take it.

Second, the Magical sword in LoZ and Aol is not the Master Sword. There is no connection between the two.

Edited by The Zol, 18 July 2006 - 10:09 PM.

[Arturo]

Ok ok, I'll finally accept that FSA is not of interest here Let's return to the same old story, OoT.
We all agree that ALttP, LA, LoZ and AoL happen after OoT's Child ending, so the Adult Timeline is still empty until we will get to 2003.
I suggest we remain silent about how exactly Ganon was sealed in the Child Timeline, because: who cares what stuff happens between the games? We only need to know how they are connected. Fact is, Ganon was definitely sealed one way or the other prior to ALttP, and he came by "the Triforce" (whatever portion of it is meant with that).

Next is MM: undoubtedly set directly after OoT's Child ending, centuries before ALttP. MM's ending proves that Link did return to Hyrule, but what he did afterwards is completely irrelevant to the timeline.

Haven't had any difficulties so far, but now we arrive once again at Oracles. Hey, I have a bad déja-vù...
Let's say they happen decades/centuries after ALttP. Now, LA's placement in relation to OoX is a pretty minor thing - you're all convinced LA is after ALttP, while I'm convinced it's after OoX. Let's just ignore that disagreement for the sake of saving time, and take both views as the "same" timeline.

Of course it's of interest, Jumbie! But if we use an order it's better. We have already situated almost all Zelda games. This is the agreed timeline:

OoT Child>MM>ALttP>OoX>LoZ>AoL
OoT Adult>TWW

I have excluded LA because it's a minor problem and we would be all discussing it for centuries.

We just have three games left:

The Minish Cap, Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures.

In my opinion we should treat them as a whole, because they have a strong internal continuity.

Well, I situate TMC first in both timelines because of Link's hat, the final sentence of the game ("this will surely not be the ending of Zelda's and Link's adventures"), that they have a knowledge of the Minish that they don't have in the other games and the issue with the Light Force.

FS and FSA must go for me after OoX and the Sleeping Zelda storyand before LoZ. My reasons to do so are: it must be after ALttP, where OoT Ganondorf dies (Ganon is an ancient demon REBORN in FSA), and also after OoX, where Ganon is resurrected by Twinrova (in FSA he doesn't die, but is Sealed). I also use as an evidence the whereabouts of the Triforce. In OoX we have the whole Triforce, while in the Sleeping Zelda one of its crests is hidden. In FSA there doesn't seem to be a real knowledge of the Triforce, for even Ganondorf doesn't seem to know about it. It seems to me that the Triforce is hidden in FSA somewhere inside Hyrule Castle, and that Zelda *might* discover it in the end of FSA (but just Wisdom and Power, for Courage was hidden) and then, after the Royal Jewels/Elements lose their power, the Four Sword turns into the White Sword and Ganon is freed. And then we have LoZ.

In my opinion, it fits quite nicely.

QUOTE
Since things cannot be reincarnated


You could offend an animist or a theosophist with that statement.

You are going to win the prize to the most irrelevant commentary in this thread.

What's more, Animism is not a religion,. but a general name to tthe beliefs of many peoples of the Earth. And reincarnation is a Buddhist-Hinduist concept. To reincarnate you have to die before, and the Master Sword, from what we know, has never died, and can't.

Edited by Arturo, 19 July 2006 - 03:55 AM.

[Jumbie]

Arturo: FS and FSA must go for me after OoX and the Sleeping Zelda storyand before LoZ. My reasons to do so are: it must be after ALttP, where OoT Ganondorf dies (Ganon is an ancient demon REBORN in FSA), and also after OoX, where Ganon is resurrected by Twinrova (in FSA he doesn't die, but is Sealed). I also use as an evidence the whereabouts of the Triforce. In OoX we have the whole Triforce, while in the Sleeping Zelda one of its crests is hidden. In FSA there doesn't seem to be a real knowledge of the Triforce, for even Ganondorf doesn't seem to know about it. It seems to me that the Triforce is hidden in FSA somewhere inside Hyrule Castle, and that Zelda *might* discover it in the end of FSA (but just Wisdom and Power, for Courage was hidden) and then, after the Royal Jewels/Elements lose their power, the Four Sword turns into the White Sword and Ganon is freed. And then we have LoZ.

We've agreed on the very same theory I can't think of anything to contradict it, but maybe someone else can (granted that they finally quit the annoying digressing and get back on topic)...

Well, I situate TMC first in both timelines because of Link's hat, the final sentence of the game ("this will surely not be the ending of Zelda's and Link's adventures"), that they have a knowledge of the Minish that they don't have in the other games and the issue with the Light Force.

These are good evidence for TMC>OoT, but I'm still not completely convinced I'd appreciate if we could find a lot more evidence on TMC's place, also some for the possibility OoT>TMC. For doing that, we've actually got another thread running, although that is also constantly blocked in progress by circular discussions But hey, why not try it right here:

Sprout of the Deku Tree, in OoT: Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country, there was a fierce war in our world.

Now, this King of Hyrule is of course a Hylian (as opposed to Gerudo, Zora or Goron), and ALttP's manual confirmed that the country's name "Hyrule" stems from the Hylians. Thus, one should assume that there had never been a Kingdom of Hyrule until OoT's Hylian King unified all the different peoples under his rule - which in turn would leave no place for TMC before OoT, since there was simply no unified Kingdom of Hyrule before OoT's fierce war.
Then again, there is the possibility that the Kingdom of Hyrule in TMC is actually only the Hylian part of the country. The only other tribes besides the Hylians in the game are:
- the tiny Minish, who live among the Hylians in their country
- the Wind Tribe, who live in their own realm in the sky
- a handful of Goron immigrants
But other than those, there is no trace of any Zora, Gerudo, Kokiri or Sheikah - the kingdom belongs to the Hylians alone. So, could it be that TMC's "Hylian Kingdom of Hyrule" is the precursor of OoT's "United Kingdom of Hyrule"? This would explain why so little was known about the Triforce in TMC: only together with the knowledge of the other peoples did the Hylian Royal Family later find out about the true force, and this is when the entrance to the Sacred Realm was sealed with the Temple of Time.

I'm not sure if that works though, what do you think of it?

Edited by Jumbie, 19 July 2006 - 11:47 AM.

[Arturo]

But hey, why not try it right here:
Now, this King of Hyrule is of course a Hylian (as opposed to Gerudo, Zora or Goron), and ALttP's manual confirmed that the country's name "Hyrule" stems from the Hylians. Thus, one should assume that there had never been a Kingdom of Hyrule until OoT's Hylian King unified all the different peoples under his rule - which in turn would leave no place for TMC before OoT, since there was simply no unified Kingdom of Hyrule before OoT's fierce war.
Then again, there is the possibility that the Kingdom of Hyrule in TMC is actually only the Hylian part of the country. The only other tribes besides the Hylians in the game are:
- the tiny Minish, who live among the Hylians in their country
- the Wind Tribe, who live in their own realm in the sky
- a handful of Goron immigrants
But other than those, there is no trace of any Zora, Gerudo, Kokiri or Sheikah - the kingdom belongs to the Hylians alone. So, could it be that TMC's "Hylian Kingdom of Hyrule" is the precursor of OoT's "United Kingdom of Hyrule"? This would explain why so little was known about the Triforce in TMC: only together with the knowledge of the other peoples did the Hylian Royal Family later find out about the true force, and this is when the entrance to the Sacred Realm was sealed with the Temple of Time.

I'm not sure if that works though, what do you think of it?

Haven't you thougth of the possibility that the Hyrule wasn't unified for FIRST time in OoT? I mean, the Deku Tree says that he unified the land, finishing a war. What was the cause of this war? Maybe it was the disgregation of the former unified kingdom of Hyrule.

I can also think of other proofs for OoT's Hyrule not being the first: The Royal Family posesses a great knowledge of the Triforce and they existed in the time of the ancient Sages (after all, one of the keys to the Sacred Realm was a treasure of the Royalty). Through guesses and assumptions, I think I more or less determined who these Sages were (in this article: http://wiki.zeldaleg...cient_Sages.3F). They are all of different races, but the Temple of Time was built in Hyrule Castle Town. This must mean a period of peace at least, but I am pretty sure that Hyrule was a kingdom at their time.

[MikePetersSucks]

What's more, Animism is not a religion,. but a general name to tthe beliefs of many peoples of the Earth. And reincarnation is a Buddhist-Hinduist concept. To reincarnate you have to die before, and the Master Sword, from what we know, has never died, and can't.

I said Animist as in "Any person who believes in Animism." And as for Reincarnation, yea it's a buddhist-hinduist concept. And a Theosophist's, and a pagan's, and a Wiccan's, and a Druid's, and even some Judeo-christian sects believe in it to a degree.

Anyway, according to a Theosophist, a soul can inhabit an inanimate object or mineral, and instead of having to die to reincarnate, the soul just has to be ready. Then it can leave and let someone else fill it without the object having to "die."

[Hero of Slime]

The King of Hyrule unified the country, but it does not say that he made one central government. It seems to be the opposite, each race still has their own ruler and territory.

I think Kingdom of Hyrule refers to the Hylian controlled regions.

[Jumbie]

The Zol: The King of Hyrule unified the country, but it does not say that he made one central government. It seems to be the opposite, each race still has their own ruler and territory.

I think Kingdom of Hyrule refers to the Hylian controlled regions.

Hey, you're right... I forgot about King Zora, the Goron Chieftain and the Gerudo King...

[Doopliss]

I think we should place TMC before ALttP because the Four Swords appears in ALttP and it was created in TMC. It sounds better to me to place it before OoT because any game between the IW and ALttP doesn't look very nice. Anyway, I haven't found anything to decide to place before or after OoT, any ideas?

It would be interesting to discuss how the IW actually took place. It is highly important to determine if Link was sent in the ending before or after Ganon touched the Triforce. I think that he was sent after the Triforce split because the Door of Time is open, because Link's body had to be in the Temple of Time so he could appear there when Zelda sent him back and because he wouldn't have the Triforce crest if he didn't have the Triforce of Courage. I have no idea of how things went after that.

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 15. XXXIX

[Fyxe]

It is highly important to determine if Link was sent in the ending before or after Ganon touched the Triforce.

Oh please god no, not again, not again...!

[Alardonin]

Oh please god no, not again, not again...!

lol i just recently got on this boards but it seems that most of the people here have touched on this subject a lot of times,altough i havent been here for much time i can see what you mean Fyxe but thats zelda for ya .

[Fyxe]

It just ticks me off that we keep discussing something that seems perfectly obvious to me. If they had intended for Link to be sent back *before* Ganondorf had entered the Sacred Realm, Zelda would not of told Link to put the Master Sword back and close the Door of Time.

And no, I'm not gonna say anything else about it, if people want to argue against that simple premise for the sake of their own timelines, well pleh, but it seems irrefutable to me, from a unbiased standpoint. Please lets not start up a whole new circular arguement about it, there's been way way way too much of it recently.

Edited by Fyxe, 20 July 2006 - 07:40 AM.

[Jumbie]

Doopliss: It would be interesting to discuss how the IW actually took place. It is highly important to determine if Link was sent in the ending before or after Ganon touched the Triforce.

NO, NO, NO!!! We've all decided that there's not gonna be a discussion about the IW anymore in here. It's totally irrelevant to the Split Timeline - all we need to know is that Ganon was sealed both before ALttP and TWW in either timeline, yet how exactly that happened doesn't matter at all.

I think we should place TMC before ALttP because the Four Swords appears in ALttP and it was created in TMC.

Yes, TMC must be before ALttP in any case.

It sounds better to me to place it before OoT because any game between the IW and ALttP doesn't look very nice. Anyway, I haven't found anything to decide to place before or after OoT, any ideas?

Right, having any games between OoT/MM and ALttP would feel awkward...
We've just been discussing whether to place TMC before or after OoT, and I actually tried to find evidence for OoT>TMC, but as you can see in my last posts, I eventually accepted that my point doesn't work as evidence.

Still, the request stands: Let's look for further evidence in TMC that hint at its placement!

EDIT:
Hey, I just had a crazy idea - what if TMC>FS+FSA took place long after LoZ+AoL?! I know, it sounds totally wrong, but it's possible this way:
- TMC's intro would refer to LoZ where Link found the White Sword (maybe the initial form of the Picori Blade).
- The part saying that the Minish gave the hero a shining light would refer to AoL's ending where Link receives the Triforce of Courage from a tiny old man (a Minish?).
- Long after AoL, TMC and then FS+FSA happen. Ganon had been dead since his demise in LoZ, but is reborn in FSA as a Gerudo.

I guess I had better scrap that theory, but well.. maybe someone has a laugh

Edited by Jumbie, 20 July 2006 - 09:04 AM.

[Doopliss]

It didn't make me exactly laugh... If you don't want to discuss about the IW it's ok.

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 16. XLIII

[Alardonin]

The pedestals were the Master Sword sits in TWW and ALttP are not the Pedestal of Time. Only the Hero of Time can take the master sword from the pedestal of time. The Links in ALttP and TWW are not the Hero of Time but they are still able to take the master sword. The master sword would have to be moved to a new pedestal in order for someone who is not the hero of time to take it.

Second, the Magical sword in LoZ and Aol is not the Master Sword. There is no connection between the two.

now that might be true The Zol but the name hero of time or hero of winds is simply a name,and that name was probably given to them do to the circumstances of their adventures link in wind waker controling the wind and link in OOT traveling in time.

And the hero of winds reference to link was given to him by Nohansen now if it were the coming of the hero that would make more sence it is said that only the hero can weild the master sword but of course the hero of time can to,because he was one of the many prophecised to wield it.

Now if only the hero of time would take the master sword from the pedestal of time from wich only the hero of time link in OOT could,wouldnt that mean that link in ocarina of time would first take it so that the circumstances of his actions would alow the other heros to wield the master sword that is still not proven in any way(this is assuming ocarina of time is first in the timeline)the MS along with the pedestal of time held the key to the sacred realm,Hyrule in WW is sealed probably do to the master sword but i think that the pedestal of time also had a job in that seal,i dont think there is any proff saying that is not the pedestal of time or that only link the hero of time can take it from his pedestal,in ocarina it says that but that is the name of wich the hero at that time is known as the hero of time.Of course this is just speculation and its not that i believe in the entirety of what i just wrote since i dont have a time line of my own but many but still there is no way that is proven that link in OOT is the only one who can take the MS from the pedestal of time probably at the time of WW the name pedestel of time may have been forgotten as well.

[Hero of Slime]

What are you talking about? It clearly says in OoT that only the hero of time can take the master sword from the pedestal of time. That is not a fan theory, that is a fact. It is the reason why Link was kept in the sacred realm for seven years is because he was not old enough to be the hero of time when he first picked up the master sword.

TWW Link and ALttP are never given the title Hero of Time, and they are able to use the master sword before adult hood. The only way that could work is if the pedestals the master sword was kept in during ALttP and TWW were not the pedestal of Time.

Now what is the condition of the Four Sword and the end of ALttP's remake?

[MikePetersSucks]

It could be possible that the rules for lifting the Master Sword CHANGED, since I doubt those rules are determined by the pedestal, but by the sword itself.

[Fyxe]

Only one worthy of the title of
"Hero of Time" can pull it from
the Pedestal of Time....

Technically, that could mean anyone who is worthy. It doesn't necessarily have to be THE Hero of Time, just someone who would also be worthy of that title if circumstances were different - the Hero of Winds, for instance.

And for proof of this...

However, you were too young to
be the Hero of Time....

Link drew it from the sword even though he was NOT the Hero of Time at that point. But he was worthy of that title. Just not old enough.

Edited by Fyxe, 20 July 2006 - 01:24 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

And why isnt Link from ALttP and TWW kept in the sacred realm to age? It would make sence for them to do so if their case is the same a OoT's Link.

[Fyxe]

Because they're not the Hero of Time. Quite simple. The Hero of Time needs to be a certain age - presumably due to the way the time travelling works in OoT. Or not. A reason for why is never given, simply the Hero of Time needs to be a certain age.

The Hero of Winds and the Hero of Hyrule don't have to be.

For a non-timeline answer... The only reason Young Link can't be the Hero of Time is due to gameplay. They had to find some excuse for a Light World/Dark World style thing, and for being able to play as a grown up Link.

Edited by Fyxe, 20 July 2006 - 01:39 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

So all three Links were worthy of the title and not the hero of time but because they were all worthy they are all able to take the master sword, but only one of them could really be the hero of time, and he was kept in the sacred realm to age.

I buy the the non timeline reason, but still think multiple pedestals makes more sense.

Edited by The Zol, 20 July 2006 - 01:47 PM.

[Fyxe]

Precisely. I think to be worthy of the Master Sword you simply need to be worthy of being whatever hero is required for whatever age, be that the Hero of Time, the Hero of Winds, or the Hero of Hyrule, or whoever.

Basically, ANY great hero of an age can use the Master Sword. Hell, it doesn't need to be Link, but they *do* need to be worthy of a title like those (even if it's not given to them), so it's unlikely to be someone who isn't a Link incarnation.

I don't think the pedestal is ever the same. There's no reason to think so. Another hero could move the sword at some point inbetween games, in a tale that is never told.

Edited by Fyxe, 20 July 2006 - 01:49 PM.

[Jumbie]

Why is there now a discussion about the Master Sword and its several pedestals going on, is this in some way helpful for finding out the order of the games?

Anyway, the Master Sword has obviously got a different pedestal in each game:
OoT = Pedestal of Time (hexagonal)
ALttP = pedestal in the woods (octogonal)
TWW = pedestal in the castle basement

As for the moving of the sword, it's only moved once in each timeline. Child Timeline: from Temple of Time to the Lost Woods; Adult Timeline: from Temple of Time to new-built Hyrule Castle.

[Hero of Slime]

Why is there now a discussion about the Master Sword and its several pedestals going on, is this in some way helpful for finding out the order of the games?

Its my fault, Alardonin had to say they were all the same pedestal.

[Alardonin]

What are you talking about? It clearly says in OoT that only the hero of time can take the master sword from the pedestal of time. That is not a fan theory, that is a fact. It is the reason why Link was kept in the sacred realm for seven years is because he was not old enough to be the hero of time when he first picked up the master sword.

TWW Link and ALttP are never given the title Hero of Time, and they are able to use the master sword before adult hood. The only way that could work is if the pedestals the master sword was kept in during ALttP and TWW were not the pedestal of Time.

Now what is the condition of the Four Sword and the end of ALttP's remake?

they are not given the title of hero of time because they did not travel in time in hyrule,and like ive said of course it says in ocarina of time that only the hero of time can take it from the pedestal that line is not used as a reference to the other links but to the hyruleans of that time you see link as the hero of time was a very important hyrulean because he was the hero that can only wield the master sword at that time in hyrule and sorry Jumbie for the mess ill try to refrain from arguing more about this but i wont promise nothing.

[Fyxe]

Now what is the condition of the Four Sword and the end of ALttP's remake?

If Link enters and completes the Palace of the Four Sword, the sword, which was split into four blades, is reunited as one once the four Dark Links are defeated. And that's the end of that side-story.

I can barely read a word of Alardorin's posts due to his disregard of punctuation and grammar.

Edited by Fyxe, 20 July 2006 - 05:10 PM.

[Alardonin]

If Link enters and completes the Palace of the Four Sword, the sword, which was split into four blades, is reunited as one once the four Dark Links are defeated. And that's the end of that side-story.

I can barely read a word of Alardorin's posts due to his disregard of punctuation and grammar.

sorry about that fyxe i will be more carefull from now on,i myself wouldnt like to read a text wich i could not comprehend at all,it makes the life more easy for the reader and makes the point more clearer made from the writer.

[Jumbie]

Fyxe: If Link enters and completes the Palace of the Four Sword, the sword, which was split into four blades, is reunited as one once the four Dark Links are defeated. And that's the end of that side-story.

Interesting. From what you tell, I guess the Four Sword is wielded by four Dark Links? So, ALttP builds a nice bridge from TMC to FS/FSA...

Edited by Jumbie, 20 July 2006 - 06:00 PM.

[coinilius]

Interesting. From what you tell, I guess the Four Sword is wielded by four Dark Links? So, ALttP builds a nice bridge from TMC to FS/FSA...

In the Palace of the Four Swords, you first have to collect four swords (blue, red, green, purple) and then go to the final boss room. You then have to fight the four shadow links, one for each sword, after which the four blades fly around and become one sword that you hold above your head. It is split into seperate swords and each one is in a seperate pedestal at the start of the game and reunited at the end of the game. I wouldn't really say that it makes a nice bridge between them, as there's still questions to be had about why it's split up and placed in a palace in the Dark World after TMC... depending on your timeline, you could also argue it was split after Ganon broke free of it following FSA and place it after FS/FSA.

[Doopliss]

There's indeed a problem with that, coinilius. We know that TMC is placed before ALttP. But is also probable that the FS games take place after ALttP because the Dark World appears in them. Some people believe that the Four Sword was working as the seal of the FS games, but I disagree because of the reasons I have stated above. Maybe we should leave this as unexplainable, such as how the Zoras got the Master Sword?

Manifestation pacifique en raison du Pie Forum. Jour 16. XLV

[Arturo]

Why don't we go back to the topic and discuss about the placement of the Four Swords Series???

Edited by Arturo, 21 July 2006 - 11:47 AM.