409 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

Jumbie, on Jul 28 2006, 01:49 AM, said:

Most of us agree on that. The FS trilogy is actually the last games to be placed in our Perfect Split Timeline we agreed upon so far, so if we get them tidied up, the aim will be reached!

Not everyone agrees with that.

[Arturo]

SOAP, on Jul 28 2006, 01:46 PM, said:

Not everyone agrees with that.

That's why it said *most* not everyone.

I can think about various causes your theory of having FSA before ALttP doesn't work:
-Ganon is suppossed to be sealed in the Sacred Realm
-Ganon's Trident is suppossed to be with him
-None of the maidens remembers the ancient Demon Ganon, while in ALttP there is many people that do.
-Zelda calls him ancient Demon reborn. If Ganon I was still in the SR, Zelda would not have said ancient Demon reborn, but "ancient Demos escaped" or something like that.
-The Dark World is not corrupted as in ALttP

Jumbie suggested me an idea a few days ago... Don't you find that the personality of FSA Ganon is quite disturbing? He feels pleasure for destructiopn, something that remembers me of.... OoX Ganon. What if the Trident was brought from OoX to Hyrule and put in the Pyramid, so that no-one might be infected by the spirit of that stupid being Twinrova resurrected?

[MikePetersSucks]

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1. Why the heck are you constantly going against my language skills? I'm not a native speaker, but to make up for that, I'm studying English Philology.

2. "Desert" and "wasteland" are synonyms! dry.gif Both can be translated to one and the same word in German, "Wüste", and in Spanish "desierto", although there are actually alternative translations existing in both languages. While "desert" always has the connotation of sand and heat, and "wasteland" can refer to any place that is just barren, the denotation of both words is the same - a place which is not too cosy for to live in.

It's not your language skills. It's the principle of you being a pompous ass to call someone ignorant and then making them an ignorant statement.

[Hero of Slime]

Arturo said

OoT Child>MM>ALttP>LA>OoX>LoZ>AoL
OoT Adult>TWW

I want to place TMC before OoT and Four Sword games and their back story in between LA and OoX.

[Jumbie]

Arturo, on Jul 28 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

The FS BS seems to be quite near to FS, because it doesn't resemble at all to anything we see in TMC.

I've already posted my take on the FS BS, but placing the actual games seems more important to me than an ominous backstory.

SOAP, on Jul 28 2006, 01:46 PM, said:

Not everyone agrees with that.

Yes, and I have your theory in the back of my mind, but you will have to formulate its points to us once again, if we're supposed to discuss which theory makes most sense in the perfect timeline. One-line replies saying that you disagree but not containing your alternative suggestion are not very helpful...

Arturo, on Jul 28 2006, 02:26 PM, said:

Don't you find that the personality of FSA Ganon is quite disturbing? He feels pleasure for destructiopn, something that remembers me of.... OoX Ganon. What if the Trident was brought from OoX to Hyrule and put in the Pyramid, so that no-one might be infected by the spirit of that stupid being Twinrova resurrected?

A little elaboration: While Hyrule does always suffer badly under Ganon's rule (OoT, LoZ), the Ganons in FSA and OoX seem to be even worse than those in other games. Of course, OoX' Ganon is stated to be nothing more than a mindless raging beast, while FSA's Ganon is able to speak and come up with perfidious plans, but nonetheless there might be one thing that connects them.
Going by the theory which Fyxe proposed earlier (that the human Ganondorf was reborn in FSA, but his pig form had never completely died in the first place), it would make sense to say that the Gerudo male Ganondorf took the ancient Trident which still carried some evil essence of the OoX Ganon, and thus transformed into a Ganon who is as intelligent as in ALttP and TWW, but at the same time totally careless about the condition of "his" realm Hyrule.

For evidence for that theory, look at the inscription in the room of the Trident:

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Red Maiden:
Hm? That writing on those large rocks... It's an ancient tongue... Let's see if I can read it.

... ... ... Seek...you...the world? Seek you...power?
Does your...soul...despise peace and...thirst for... more?
Does your soul...cry... for...destruction and... conquest?
We...grant you...power to ...ruin...the world. The power of...darkness.
Evil...spirit of magic trident.
You are...the... King of Darkness.

So the King of Darkness, who is stated to have been around before by Zelda, apparently wielded the Trident, and all the talk about ruining the world sounds to me more like the raging beast of OoX than like the Ganon from ALttP.

The Zol, on Jul 28 2006, 11:15 PM, said:

I want to place TMC before OoT and Four Sword games and their back story in between LA and OoX.

TMC before OoT is okay for me too, but as you can see, I would place FS+FSA after OoX.

[SOAP]

Jumbie, on Jul 28 2006, 10:44 PM, said:

Yes, and I have your theory in the back of my mind, but you will have to formulate its points to us once again, if we're supposed to discuss which theory makes most sense in the perfect timeline. One-line replies saying that you disagree but not containing your alternative suggestion are not very helpful...

I have:

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Uh, no I didn't forget anything. I just have very little reason to believe FSA should go after ALTTP and all the reasons why I shouldn't. When it really boils down to it, I really don't care whether he appears outside the sacred realm between OoT and ALttP. He'd have to in TWW if you went by a Single Timeline. But this is a Split Timeline so why can't FSA be in a seperate timeline from ALttP? To me, FSA seems to parallel with ALTTP [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. They could be split timeline counterparts that take place roughly around the same time, in simmilar looking Hyrules, just on two seperate timelines with two seperate histories. But if FSA must be in the same timeline as ALttP, then before it is the best place for me. So what if he's reborn outside of the Sacred Realm. That's not the same as escaping from it. It just gets his foot outside the door much like the whole deal with Afganhim.

It may also be possible that FSA Ganondorf is a totally seperate person who was just some punk Gerudo who got greedy and ended up being poessed by the real Ganon. I mean no one even saw the connection between the two, not even one of the Shrine Maidens.

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He can be both dead and imprisoned in the Sacred Realm in spirit. Also the reincarnated Ganondorf could just be corporeal rebirth of Ganon's human side to use as a vessel in an attempt to escape. His beast form had been revived before without his mind and spirit in OoA. Why not his human form?

I still think its a different Ganondorf myself. It could be Ganondorf Jr for all I care.

[Jumbie]

SOAP, on Jul 29 2006, 04:20 AM, said:

When it really boils down to it, I really don't care whether he appears outside the sacred realm between OoT and ALttP.

No evidence at all for that in any other game (than FSA itself).

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But this is a Split Timeline so why can't FSA be in a seperate timeline from ALttP? To me, FSA seems to parallel with ALTTP [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. They could be split timeline counterparts that take place roughly around the same time, in simmilar looking Hyrules, just on two seperate timelines with two seperate histories.

In a separate timeline from ALttP would mean in the same timeline with TWW. But TWW's timeline is crammed with games - now that TP and PH are coming, there really isn't any place for another game like FSA. Except after PH, but I'm vehemently countering this possibility unless PH will give any hint that the old games could be placed after it.

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But if FSA must be in the same timeline as ALttP, then before it is the best place for me. So what if he's reborn outside of the Sacred Realm. That's not the same as escaping from it. It just gets his foot outside the door much like the whole deal with Afganhim.

Being reincarnated is not a device for fleeing the Sacred Realm. No one in Zelda can reincarnate themselves on their own, those persons must be dead and then be reborn by a divine choosing (-my assumption-).

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It may also be possible that FSA Ganondorf is a totally seperate person who was just some punk Gerudo who got greedy and ended up being poessed by the real Ganon. I mean no one even saw the connection between the two, not even one of the Shrine Maidens.

That possibility would be so uninspired and boring. Link is always Link, Zelda is always Zelda, so Ganondorf must always be Ganondorf! Nintendo could've kept the name of that Gerudo man secret, and just told something like the 100-year-boy went into the desert to be possessed by the ancient demon Ganon. But no, they actually bothered to mention his name, and moreover it's very similar to the name of Ganon, the King of Darkness! So, it's nothing more than wishful thinking that FSA's Ganondorf could be some random person.

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He can be both dead and imprisoned in the Sacred Realm in spirit. Also the reincarnated Ganondorf could just be corporeal rebirth of Ganon's human side to use as a vessel in an attempt to escape. His beast form had been revived before without his mind and spirit in OoA. Why not his human form?

Possible, but absolutely unneeded. We don't have to make up reasons why Ganon could've reincarnated his human form between OoT and ALttP, when all we have to do is place FSA after a game where Ganon actually died completely!

I think that after the demon Ganon was killed in Oracles, the Goddesses chose to let Ganondorf be reborn to grow up as a good Gerudo this time (much like the demon Boo was reborn as a good boy after his demise, in DBZ). But, since the Trident had been enshrined in the desert, its evil power (and maybe remains of the demon) radiated to the Gerudo camp where it aroused in young Ganondorf's mind the desire to become the King of Darkness once again.
In direct comparison to your theory - that Ganon made use of the all-new device called self-reincarnation to escape the Sacred Realm - which one is the more atmospheric narrative?

Edited by Jumbie, 30 July 2006 - 12:32 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

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Being reincarnated is not a device for fleeing the Sacred Realm. No one in Zelda can reincarnate themselves on their own, those persons must be dead and then be reborn by a divine choosing (-my assumption-).

Like you said, that's an assumption. But who knows what one can do with a Triforce piece and some dark magic? In most religions and mythologies, it's a really simple deed for a wizard to control their reincarnations, retain memory, reincarnate without dying...etc.

[Arturo]

I loved the part when my posts were completely ignored.


Maybe Ganon can reincarnate though being alive in the SR, but there are other causes why FSA can't be before ALttP:

-Ganon is suppossed to be sealed in the Sacred Realm
-Ganon's Trident is suppossed to be with him
-None of the maidens remembers the ancient Demon Ganon, while in ALttP there is many people that do.
-There is no knowledege of the Seal War
-Gerudos are not remembered as evil, as they are in ALttP
-Zelda calls him ancient Demon reborn. If Ganon I was still in the SR, Zelda would not have said ancient Demon reborn, but "ancient Demon escaped" or something like that.
-The Dark World is not corrupted as in ALttP

[MikePetersSucks]

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-Ganon is suppossed to be sealed in the Sacred Realm
-Ganon's Trident is suppossed to be with him
-None of the maidens remembers the ancient Demon Ganon, while in ALttP there is many people that do.
-There is no knowledege of the Seal War
-Gerudos are not remembered as evil, as they are in ALttP
-Zelda calls him ancient Demon reborn. If Ganon I was still in the SR, Zelda would not have said ancient Demon reborn, but "ancient Demon escaped" or something like that.
-The Dark World is not corrupted as in ALttP

-Hence he's reincarnating outward just as he did with Agahnim.
-Says who? For all we know he has the Trident because of the events of FSA.
-There's some that believe FSA is the Seal War and there's enough evidence for the proposition.
-The Seal War migh not have happened yet.
-Now that just came out of your ass. The Gerudos aren't even mentioned in LTTP.
-Says who? Zelda doesn't know every goddamn thing in the universe. It doesn't even have to be a literal rebirth. It could just be Reborn as in Return, as is done so much in fuction
-I always figured the Dark World in FSA was a plane neither Hyrule nor the Sacred Realm, possibly of the Trident's creation or something, I dunno. But it always seemed fake to me.

[Arturo]

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 31 2006, 06:59 PM, said:

-Hence he's reincarnating outward just as he did with Agahnim.

Agahnim has just an objective: break the Sages' Seal. FSA Ganon lives for his own objective: destruction. Nothing suggest he is working for a grater evil.

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 31 2006, 06:59 PM, said:

-Says who? For all we know he has the Trident because of the events of FSA.

In OoT, Phantom Ganon has the Trident. In ALttP, the Trident is with Ganon I. If the Trident is with Ganon I, WTF is it doing inside an ancient Pyramid?

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 31 2006, 06:59 PM, said:

-There's some that believe FSA is the Seal War and there's enough evidence for the proposition.

Except for the fact that in the Seal War, Ganon was sealed by the Seven Sages in the SACRED REALM, not by seven maidens inside a stupid sword. And except for many other facts.

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 31 2006, 06:59 PM, said:

-The Seal War migh not have happened yet.

Face it, OoT is, was and will always be the Seal War. So, if you place FSA between OoT and ALttP, you are putting it after the Seal War.

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 31 2006, 06:59 PM, said:

-Now that just came out of your ass. The Gerudos aren't even mentioned in LTTP.

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The man's name was Ganondorf, and his common name was Ganon of the race of evil thieves.

This didn't come from my ass, but from the ALttP Japanese manual, translated by Zethar-II. The race of Ganondorf, the Gerudos, are called Evil Thieves. No-one has this perception in FSA.

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 31 2006, 06:59 PM, said:

-Says who? Zelda doesn't know every goddamn thing in the universe. It doesn't even have to be a literal rebirth. It could just be Reborn as in Return, as is done so much in fuction

Zelda may not know everything, but more than you, for sure.

The Maidens in ALttP know about Ganon, while in FSA, they don't. Even the Gerudos don't remember anything about Ganondorf. So, according to you, Ganon was sealed in the Sacred REalm by the Seven Sages, then everyone forgot about Ganon and magically they remember him by the time of ALttP. Really logical.

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 31 2006, 06:59 PM, said:

-I always figured the Dark World in FSA was a plane neither Hyrule nor the Sacred Realm, possibly of the Trident's creation or something, I dunno. But it always seemed fake to me.

I just like this point. The others.... I will not talk anything more about the others.

Attached Files

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Edited by Arturo, 31 July 2006 - 04:44 PM.

[Doopliss]

I don't remember exactly the text in the Pyramid of Power about the Trident, but I think it implies that the ancient tribe of evil created the trident. Agahnim mentions something about the ancient tribe of evil when Link is fighting him. Does that mean that ALttP could take place before FSA?

[Fyxe]

Those are likely to be very seperate things. The word Agahnim used in a single word in Japanese that means 'evil race' or 'demons' or something like that. Mazoku is the word, I believe. They simply translated it as 'tribe of evil' and he didn't say anything about it being ancient, and it is not refered to as a title, it's merely a description of Ganon's followers.

In FSA, the tribe is a 'dark tribe', which may or may not be the same word in Japanese but that doesn't mean it's the same tribe at all, because it's a fairly common word in Japanese fantasy.

Besides, Ganon's followers were not imprisoned in the Dark Mirror or anything.

I actually think the 'dark tribe' may turn out to be the weird monsters we see in Twilight Princess. Or it might not.

[MikePetersSucks]

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Agahnim has just an objective: break the Sages' Seal. FSA Ganon lives for his own objective: destruction. Nothing suggest he is working for a grater evil.

Yea, so? I believe in the FSA Ganon case he allows it to be a seperate entity, and then takes back control when he gets the Trident back.

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In OoT, Phantom Ganon has the Trident. In ALttP, the Trident is with Ganon I. If the Trident is with Ganon I, WTF is it doing inside an ancient Pyramid?

The Master Sword was in a temple in OOT. In LTTP it's in a forest. WTF is it doing in the castle in TWW?

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Except for the fact that in the Seal War, Ganon was sealed by the Seven Sages in the SACRED REALM, not by seven maidens inside a stupid sword. And except for many other facts.

Seven Maidens with Sagely wisdom and power, sealing Ganon into a sword that for all we know is a portal to the Sacred Realm like the Master Sword was in OOT, Knights of Hyrule, the obscene similarities between FSA and LTTP...

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Face it, OoT is, was and will always be the Seal War. So, if you place FSA between OoT and ALttP, you are putting it after the Seal War.

Heh, at this point, that doesn't have to be the case. The timeline has been so messed up.

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This didn't come from my ass, but from the ALttP Japanese manual, translated by Zethar-II. The race of Ganondorf, the Gerudos, are called Evil Thieves. No-one has this perception in FSA.

Meh. The Gerudos weren't really evil. Like, at all, so I'm kinda skeptic about this line.

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Zelda may not know everything, but more than you, for sure.

The Maidens in ALttP know about Ganon, while in FSA, they don't. Even the Gerudos don't remember anything about Ganondorf. So, according to you, Ganon was sealed in the Sacred REalm by the Seven Sages, then everyone forgot about Ganon and magically they remember him by the time of ALttP. Really logical.

And you too, so don't be a pompous ass please. As for remembering Ganon, maybe they "Suddenly remember" Was because they JUST FECKING SEALED him however long ago in FSA. I mean with OOT, there's the whole....flood....thing, and whatever else. To say nothing about Hyrule's poor memory as a whole. "Oh uh...we forgot where we put the Light Force" "Oh uh...the way to the Sacred Realm has been lost." "Oh uh....no one remembers the old land of Hyrule." "Oh uh...I don't remember where I put my butterfly net."

Anyway, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I believe all this stuff. I'm just being devil's advocate since you guys are assuming everyone agrees if no one speaks up.

[Fyxe]

I'm with Artuno on this one. He's come up with plenty of decent reasons for why FSA doesn't make any logical sense to come before ALttP. Playing devil's advocate with some of that stuff is just being a bit too nitpicky.

I don't think Ganon's trident was ever meant to be with him in OoT though, only Phantom Ganon has a trident in OoT. The trident in FSA is a reference to ALttP.

[SOAP]

To Jumbie:

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No evidence at all for that in any other game (than FSA itself).

Well yeah. But that's assuming that OoT is the IW in a split timeline.

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In a separate timeline from ALttP would mean in the same timeline with TWW. But TWW's timeline is crammed with games - now that TP and PH are coming, there really isn't any place for another game like FSA. Except after PH, but I'm vehemently countering this possibility unless PH will give any hint that the old games could be placed after it.

Crammed? TWW's timeline only has PH for sure. TP is still uncertian at this point. They coulsd change their minds before the relaese. It's happened before. Evenm so, that's just two games. ALttP's timeline would have LA, LOZ, AoL, and possibly the Oracle games. If anything taht timeline has enough in it. Although my point isn't whether it's in a seperate timeline than ALttP. It kjust doesn't HAVE to be. However, I think we can at least agree that FSA and ALttP are somehow related.

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Being reincarnated is not a device for fleeing the Sacred Realm. No one in Zelda can reincarnate themselves on their own, those persons must be dead and then be reborn by a divine choosing (-my assumption-).
That possibility would be so uninspired and boring. Link is always Link, Zelda is always Zelda, so Ganondorf must always be Ganondorf! Nintendo could've kept the name of that Gerudo man secret, and just told something like the 100-year-boy went into the desert to be possessed by the ancient demon Ganon. But no, they actually bothered to mention his name, and moreover it's very similar to the name of Ganon, the King of Darkness! So, it's nothing more than wishful thinking that FSA's Ganondorf could be some random person.
Possible, but absolutely unneeded. We don't have to make up reasons why Ganon could've reincarnated his human form between OoT and ALttP, when all we have to do is place FSA after a game where Ganon actually died completely!

MPS already answered this for me.

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I think that after the demon Ganon was killed in Oracles, the Goddesses chose to let Ganondorf be reborn to grow up as a good Gerudo this time (much like the demon Boo was reborn as a good boy after his demise, in DBZ). But, since the Trident had been enshrined in the desert, its evil power (and maybe remains of the demon) radiated to the Gerudo camp where it aroused in young Ganondorf's mind the desire to become the King of Darkness once again.
In direct comparison to your theory - that Ganon made use of the all-new device called self-reincarnation to escape the Sacred Realm - which one is the more atmospheric narrative?

Makes a great story to say the least. But if it's stories you want here's one: Since every hundred years, a Gerudo male would've been born anyways, Ganon could've seized the oppurtunity to escape the sacred realm by seducing this new Ganondorf with power and eventually returning to the physical plane as by possessing Ganondorf II's body.

[Alardonin]

Showsni, on Jul 28 2006, 01:32 AM, said:

According to my ~2000 page dictionary, a "dingle" is a small wooden doll (13th century, uncertain origin) and a "berry" is an indehiscent fruit with two or more seeds and a fleshy pericarp.

2000 page dam how many laguages do you got there,"dingle" dont wana sound childish with this but "dingle"=berry well you learn something new every day,mhh very interestingXP.

[Jumbie]

MikePetersSucks, on Aug 1 2006, 08:24 PM, said:

Meh. The Gerudos weren't really evil. Like, at all, so I'm kinda skeptic about this line.

I agree, the Gerudo were innocent in OoT. Nabooru herself says that "Ganondorf and his minions are using the Spirit Temple as a hideout", which would have to include Twinrova, but other than them, ALttP's "tribe of evil thieves" most likely means people like Blind and those that Ganondorf killed in his struggle for the Triforce.

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To say nothing about Hyrule's poor memory as a whole. "Oh uh...we forgot where we put the Light Force" "Oh uh...the way to the Sacred Realm has been lost." "Oh uh....no one remembers the old land of Hyrule." "Oh uh...I don't remember where I put my butterfly net."

Lol, true, alas. But since we can explain it without involving another collective amnesia, I don't see why we should have the people forget about OoT's Ganondorf.

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Anyway, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I believe all this stuff. I'm just being devil's advocate since you guys are assuming everyone agrees if no one speaks up.

Emm yes, it's like that *naturally* - getting no critique can only be understood as approval. If only you people could stop that constant devil's advocating, it's everything but useful. I, for one, only criticize if someone's theory contradicts my own.

Fyxe, on Aug 1 2006, 08:35 PM, said:

I'm with Artuno on this one. He's come up with plenty of decent reasons for why FSA doesn't make any logical sense to come before ALttP. Playing devil's advocate with some of that stuff is just being a bit too nitpicky.

I don't think Ganon's trident was ever meant to be with him in OoT though, only Phantom Ganon has a trident in OoT. The trident in FSA is a reference to ALttP.

It's always nice when I can agree with Fixe on something.

SOAP, on Aug 1 2006, 10:54 PM, said:

However, I think we can at least agree that FSA and ALttP are somehow related.

In a way we can, yes. You go FSA>ALttP, I go ALttP>FSA. But you never specified, what exactly is your great concern about having FSA after ALttP?

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Since every hundred years, a Gerudo male would've been born anyways, Ganon could've seized the oppurtunity to escape the sacred realm by seducing this new Ganondorf with power and eventually returning to the physical plane as by possessing Ganondorf II's body.

Hm, it is a nice story, actually. While I say the demon essence of Ganon remained in his Trident and his human form was reborn as a Gerudo, you say the entire demon Ganon stayed alive in the Dark World and another male Gerudo was born to free and fuse with the sealed Ganon...
To be honest, I don't see how to criticize your theory. But still I like our version better, it's refreshingly different from what happens with Agahnim in ALttP. A matter of taste, I guess.

Doopliss, on Aug 1 2006, 07:10 PM, said:

I don't remember exactly the text in the Pyramid of Power about the Trident, but I think it implies that the ancient tribe of evil created the trident. Agahnim mentions something about the ancient tribe of evil when Link is fighting him. Does that mean that ALttP could take place before FSA?

For your info, I had already quoted the Trident text, it's in my last post.

Fyxe, on Aug 1 2006, 07:22 PM, said:

Those are likely to be very seperate things. The word Agahnim used in a single word in Japanese that means 'evil race' or 'demons' or something like that. Mazoku is the word, I believe. They simply translated it as 'tribe of evil' and he didn't say anything about it being ancient, and it is not refered to as a title, it's merely a description of Ganon's followers.

In FSA, the tribe is a 'dark tribe', which may or may not be the same word in Japanese but that doesn't mean it's the same tribe at all, because it's a fairly common word in Japanese fantasy.

In ALttP "mazoku" is used for both the monsters that roam the Dark World and the evil tribe Agahnim mentions. Ganon himself is a monster, too. So, unless FSA said "yamizoku" instead of "mazoku", which I don't know, I think we should just match both titles to mean the same, taking the risk of either meaning something different.

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Besides, Ganon's followers were not imprisoned in the Dark Mirror or anything.

Well yes, strictly the mirror is not stated to be related with the Trident (though I might miss something), but what else would you say is imprisoned in it, some evil monsters like in TMC's treasure chest?

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White Maiden: Long ago, a dark tribe invaded Hyrule. They were defeated and imprisoned within the mirror. The tribe's mirror prison was then secreted away and hidden in the forest temple to sever its connection to this world. That Dark Mirror must never fall into the hands of those with evil hearts.

"To sever its connection to this world"... Why does she say that, if the mirror is stored in Hyrule anyway? Sure, the area around the Temple is called Dark World, but I doubt it's the same Dark World that you enter at other points of the game. Could it mean that the mirror itself contains the Dark World? After all, one mage says this about FSA's Dark World: "This world is like a darkened mirror of your own..." A general metaphor most likely, but what if the Dark Mirror actually has a connection to the existence of this world.

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White Maiden: That mirror reveals the wickedness within a person and brings it to life.
Shadow Link!! Could he be your evil reflection, cast by the Dark Mirror?

Was the Shadow Link from OoT created by this mirror as well, or was the dark magic with which Ganondorf created Shadow Link in OoT sealed in this mirror? or egg?!

Edited by Jumbie, 01 August 2006 - 06:03 PM.

[Arturo]

MikePetersSucks, on Aug 1 2006, 08:24 PM, said:

Yea, so? I believe in the FSA Ganon case he allows it to be a seperate entity, and then takes back control when he gets the Trident back.

And then when he's sealed? Do you want to have TWO GANONS at the same time?????? One Ganon in the Sacred Realm and the other, God knows where, sealed inside the Four Sword.

MikePetersSucks, on Aug 1 2006, 08:24 PM, said:

The Master Sword was in a temple in OOT. In LTTP it's in a forest. WTF is it doing in the castle in TWW?

It's not the same. First, TWW and ALttP are in different timelines. Second, the Trident is with Ganon in the Sacred Realm, because he has been sealed by the Seven Sages. Then, why do we have the same Trident at the same time in two places??

MikePetersSucks, on Aug 1 2006, 08:24 PM, said:

Seven Maidens with Sagely wisdom and power, sealing Ganon into a sword that for all we know is a portal to the Sacred Realm like the Master Sword was in OOT, Knights of Hyrule, the obscene similarities between FSA and LTTP...

Four Sword a portal to the Sacred Realm? That's fanfiction. The Master Sword has never been a portal to the Sacred Realm, but the LAST SEAL of the portal to the Sacred Realm:

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The Master Sword--the evil-destroying sword that you pulled out of the Pedestal of Time--was the final key to the Sacred Realm.

FSA Ganon was sealed inside the sword, not in the Sacred Realm.

MikePetersSucks, on Aug 1 2006, 08:24 PM, said:

Heh, at this point, that doesn't have to be the case. The timeline has been so messed up.

The whole reason why Split Timelines exist is to reconcile the idea of having OoT as the Seal War and OoT as the prequel of TWW.

MikePetersSucks, on Aug 1 2006, 08:24 PM, said:

Meh. The Gerudos weren't really evil. Like, at all, so I'm kinda skeptic about this line.

You have discovered America!!!! The Gerudos were not evil. MPS has opened our eyes!!!!!!


Of course I know Gerudos were not evil in OoT. But they were PERCEIVED as evil in ALttP.

MikePetersSucks, on Aug 1 2006, 08:24 PM, said:

And you too, so don't be a pompous ass please.

I am usually a nice guy, you are the one who puts so much interest in me being a "pompous ass".
If you want me to be nice, you have to start not insulting my intelligence. Because, as we say in Spanish "Si me buscas, me encuentras".

Fyxe, on Aug 1 2006, 08:35 PM, said:

I'm with Artuno on this one. He's come up with plenty of decent reasons for why FSA doesn't make any logical sense to come before ALttP. Playing devil's advocate with some of that stuff is just being a bit too nitpicky.

Thanks Fyxe! But I am ArtuRo, please.

[Fyxe]

Jumbie, on Aug 2 2006, 12:00 AM, said:

I agree, the Gerudo were innocent in OoT. Nabooru herself says that "Ganondorf and his minions are using the Spirit Temple as a hideout", which would have to include Twinrova, but other than them, ALttP's "tribe of evil thieves" most likely means people like Blind and those that Ganondorf killed in his struggle for the Triforce.

Either that or it simply went down in history that Ganondorf was the leader of a group of thieves. And since he was evil, the thieves must be as well.

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Lol, true, alas. But since we can explain it without involving another collective amnesia, I don't see why we should have the people forget about OoT's Ganondorf.

Actually, it's impossible to explain it with collective amnesia. The maidens remember the evil Ganondorf in ALttP, along with others, yet nobody remembers him in FSA. Zelda eventually works it out. Therefore it wouldn't make sense for FSA to be inbetween the two games.

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It's always nice when I can agree with Fixe on something.

It's not my fault he chose a name so similar to the name of a bleedin' Pokemon.

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In ALttP "mazoku" is used for both the monsters that roam the Dark World and the evil tribe Agahnim mentions. Ganon himself is a monster, too. So, unless FSA said "yamizoku" instead of "mazoku", which I don't know, I think we should just match both titles to mean the same, taking the risk of either meaning something different.

We should not assume they mean the same. There can be more than one type of evil race.

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Well yes, strictly the mirror is not stated to be related with the Trident (though I might miss something), but what else would you say is imprisoned in it, some evil monsters like in TMC's treasure chest?

Why not something like that? It could easily be something like that. Although, yes, it seems vaguely likely it may of been something to do with Ganon's ancient followers. The Dark Mirror is related to the Dark World, Ganon made the Dark World, so...

[Arturo]

Jumbie, on Aug 2 2006, 01:00 AM, said:

I agree, the Gerudo were innocent in OoT. Nabooru herself says that "Ganondorf and his minions are using the Spirit Temple as a hideout", which would have to include Twinrova, but other than them, ALttP's "tribe of evil thieves" most likely means people like Blind and those that Ganondorf killed in his struggle for the Triforce.

I am with Fyxe in that. They were perceived as evil because Ganon=Evil, Ganon=Gerudo ERGO Gerudos=Evil.

Jumbie, on Aug 2 2006, 01:00 AM, said:

Lol, true, alas. But since we can explain it without involving another collective amnesia, I don't see why we should have the people forget about OoT's Ganondorf.
Emm yes, it's like that *naturally* - getting no critique can only be understood as approval. If only you people could stop that constant devil's advocating, it's everything but useful. I, for one, only criticize if someone's theory contradicts my own.

Collective amnesia is not a good explanation. Worse is amnesia and after that, sudden rememberance.

Fyxe, on Aug 2 2006, 01:12 AM, said:

Either that or it simply went down in history that Ganondorf was the leader of a group of thieves. And since he was evil, the thieves must be as well.

Completely agreed

Fyxe, on Aug 2 2006, 01:12 AM, said:

It's not my fault he chose a name so similar to the name of a bleedin' Pokemon.

I didn't choose my name. My parents chose it, because it's my real first name (for my grandfather, whose name was Arturo also, if you want more information). And which Pokémon? Articuno? My name doesn't resemble with that at all. You can call me Arthur, if it's easier for you to remember But please, don't compare my name with that of a Pokémon.

Edited by Arturo, 01 August 2006 - 06:24 PM.

[Fyxe]

I apologise, I have never heard the name before, thought it was a screenname. And it's not that I'm comparing it, it's just how my mind works as I'm typing it. I see 'tuno' rather than 'turo'. It's just the way language works in my mind.

[Arturo]

It's OK. It's normal you haven't heard my name because it's a Spanish one. The English way of my name is Arthur, and the French (you are from France, right?) is Artur, I think.


But let's go back to the topic. FSA must be after ALttP, right?

Edited by Arturo, 02 August 2006 - 04:05 AM.

[Jumbie]

Arturo, on Aug 2 2006, 11:05 AM, said:

But let's go back to the topic. FSA must be after ALttP, right?

For you, Fyxe and me, yes. I think everything to prove ALttP>FSA has been said, but SOAP will probably not give in so easily. And MikePetersSucks, I don't know his placement at all, due to all his confusing arguing in favor of a theory he doesn't even believe himself.

So, we assume OoT+MM > ALttP > FS+FSA > LoZ+AoL, right? But I'd like to hear your opinions on where OoX fits in. I think it's between ALttP and FS+FSA.

Edited by Jumbie, 02 August 2006 - 10:58 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

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Emm yes, it's like that *naturally* - getting no critique can only be understood as approval. If only you people could stop that constant devil's advocating, it's everything but useful. I, for one, only criticize if someone's theory contradicts my own.

Actually, it's very useful. If no one challenges a theory, it will go on under the assumption that it's right even if it's really stupid. At the very least, it can be challenged due to the existence of other viewpoints.

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"To sever its connection to this world"... Why does she say that, if the mirror is stored in Hyrule anyway? Sure, the area around the Temple is called Dark World, but I doubt it's the same Dark World that you enter at other points of the game. Could it mean that the mirror itself contains the Dark World? After all, one mage says this about FSA's Dark World: "This world is like a darkened mirror of your own..." A general metaphor most likely, but what if the Dark Mirror actually has a connection to the existence of this world.

That's sort've been my idea since the beginning.

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And then when he's sealed? Do you want to have TWO GANONS at the same time?????? One Ganon in the Sacred Realm and the other, God knows where, sealed inside the Four Sword.

They could've merged if they ended up in the same area. Either that or Ganon I could've pulled Ganon II back to his domain, been all like "U R TEH USELESS" And taken his power back. Agahnim and FSA Ganondorf are like really complex Phantom Ganons, in my opinion.

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It's not the same. First, TWW and ALttP are in different timelines. Second, the Trident is with Ganon in the Sacred Realm, because he has been sealed by the Seven Sages. Then, why do we have the same Trident at the same time in two places??

It is the same, because it brings the same thought to [most] people's minds. "Who cares?" Is it really so important why their locations shift over a possibly thousands-of-years span?

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Four Sword a portal to the Sacred Realm? That's fanfiction. The Master Sword has never been a portal to the Sacred Realm, but the LAST SEAL of the portal to the Sacred Realm:

I know it's fanfiction. hence the "For all we know." I'm just representing a side of the issue a big chunk of the community believes in. But that's aside the point. For all we know, the Four Sword could be a portal/seal to the Sacred Realm, since you apparently believe the Minish World is the Sacred Realm, and well...

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The whole reason why Split Timelines exist is to reconcile the idea of having OoT as the Seal War and OoT as the prequel of TWW.

To some people. To others it's to explain how TWW and LTTP can co-exist in any sort of fashion. The Seal War issue doesn't have to be involved.

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I am usually a nice guy, you are the one who puts so much interest in me being a "pompous ass".
If you want me to be nice, you have to start not insulting my intelligence.

I've only insulted your intelligence once and that was because I was kinda bitter over, you know, losing my entire immediate family. But whatever. People are totally 100% reliable to be judged on who they are when they're in a state of grieving.

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And MikePetersSucks, I don't know his placement at all, due to all his confusing arguing in favor of a theory he doesn't even believe himself.

For the record, I put the whole FS trilogy after LTTP. But I argued for the other side otherwise you guys would just assume everyone in the community (despite maybe ten people being involved in the debate at most) to agree with you.

[SOAP]

Jumbie, on Aug 1 2006, 11:00 PM, said:

In a way we can, yes. You go FSA>ALttP, I go ALttP>FSA. But you never specified, what exactly is your great concern about having FSA after ALttP?

What is my big concern about FSA being after ALtTP. Well I have a couple actually. First of all I just don't like the idea of Ganon having possesion of the FS and or having anything remotely to do with it prior to FSA. It just makes more sense for Ganonm to have been sealed in FS, then broken out and keeping keeping the shattered peices as four seperate sword in four seperate rooms of the PoTFS. The other way requires much more explaining. But that's completely arbitrary I suppose as this doesn't seem to bother anyone else.

My bigger concern is Dark World still existing after ALttP. It just shouldn't. People try to pass it off a different, "less currupted" Dark World or a Dark World with Ganon no longer in power or something like that. I don't see how Dark World is any "less currupted" in FSA than in ALttP? It's bizarre and shadowy, mirror-mage of Hyrule. Why, because there aren't as many monsters in it and children can play freely in it it's not the same dark world from ALttP? Since when did Dark World have to be chock full of monsters to be "Dark World?" Dark came to be what it is because Ganon wished for the world and got a phony mirror-mage of it in the Sacred Realm. That wish got canceled out when Link wished for Ganon's evil to be undone. Therefore Dark World shouldn't still exist and FSA should go between the IW and ALttP. As for why there aren't many monsters in FSA's Dark World, obviously Ganon hasn't built up his army yet, duh!

Admittedly, the FSAGBA alternate ending doesn't really help my case...

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Hm, it is a nice story, actually. While I say the demon essence of Ganon remained in his Trident and his human form was reborn as a Gerudo, you say the entire demon Ganon stayed alive in the Dark World and another male Gerudo was born to free and fuse with the sealed Ganon...
To be honest, I don't see how to criticize your theory. But still I like our version better, it's refreshingly different from what happens with Agahnim in ALttP. A matter of taste, I guess.

That's the thing about stories. They're good and all but completely useless in debates. They can only explain how something works, not WHY it works.

As a sidenote: How do you know ALttP was talking about the Gerudo? Ganon's followers were described as MEN!

Edited by SOAP, 03 August 2006 - 02:55 AM.

[Jumbie]

SOAP, on Aug 3 2006, 09:46 AM, said:

First of all I just don't like the idea of Ganon having possesion of the FS and or having anything remotely to do with it prior to FSA. It just makes more sense for Ganonm to have been sealed in FS, then broken out and keeping keeping the shattered peices as four seperate sword in four seperate rooms of the PoTFS. The other way requires much more explaining. But that's completely arbitrary I suppose as this doesn't seem to bother anyone else.

Hm, right, I don't care much about the Palace of the Four Sword in ALttP... It's canon, but I wouldn't focus on arranging the timeline to make sense with the PotFS, but on first making the timeline work and afterwards see how the PotFS can be made fit.

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My bigger concern is Dark World still existing after ALttP. It just shouldn't. People try to pass it off a different, "less currupted" Dark World or a Dark World with Ganon no longer in power or something like that. I don't see how Dark World is any "less currupted" in FSA than in ALttP? It's bizarre and shadowy, mirror-mage of Hyrule. Why, because there aren't as many monsters in it and children can play freely in it it's not the same dark world from ALttP? Since when did Dark World have to be chock full of monsters to be "Dark World?"

In FSA it is less corrupted for a fact. I don't have all the Dark World sequences of FSA in mind, but I guess that Hyrule, the light world, has much more monsters running around than the Dark World. But the monsters are really not the main reason why the Dark World is called like that, neither in ALttP nor in FSA.

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Dark came to be what it is because Ganon wished for the world and got a phony mirror-mage of it in the Sacred Realm. That wish got canceled out when Link wished for Ganon's evil to be undone. Therefore Dark World shouldn't still exist and FSA should go between the IW and ALttP.

So Link wished for the Sacred Realm to be restored in ALttP. And in FSA, the darkness has vanished from it indeed! The land is not dyed in gloomy colours anymore, but mirrors a bright Hyrule almost perfectly, like it has always done since OoT - it makes sense. All that's left of the former darkness is the name, "Dark World". Makes sense, too - where would the people get back the name "Sacred Realm" (or "Golden Land") from, if the thing has been known as the Dark World ever since after OoT?!

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As for why there aren't many monsters in FSA's Dark World, obviously Ganon hasn't built up his army yet, duh!

Didn't he already build up an army between OoT's past and future? Furthermore, FSA Ganon doesn't seem to have ever set one foot into the Dark World (directly before and during the game). All over the place there are portals leading out of it and into it, so this alternate world isn't a good prison. Or were the portals only created after Vaati was freed?
In my understanding, Ganon (or his essence) was being imprisoned in the Trident in Hyrule's desert before FSA, not in the restored and freely accessible Sacred Realm that is still dubbed "Dark World".

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That's the thing about stories. They're good and all but completely useless in debates. They can only explain how something works, not WHY it works.

Hm, I always thought timeline theorizing is to build a story out of canon evidence, with as little fanfiction as possible, and the most convincing story wins (for oneself)... Isn't it like that?

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As a sidenote: How do you know ALttP was talking about the Gerudo? Ganon's followers were described as MEN!

We talked that through earlier. There are two possible explanations:
- ALttP's "tribe of evil thieves" refers to Ganondorf's gang of men that Nabooru mentioned in OoT,
- ALttP's "tribe of evil thieves" refers to Ganondorf's people, the Gerudo thieves, which where later mistaken to be his evil followers, although they weren't.
Actually, it doesn't matter which one you choose. The more explanations there are for issues like that, the better!

Edited by Jumbie, 03 August 2006 - 08:53 AM.

[SOAP]

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So Link wished for the Sacred Realm to be restored in ALttP. And in FSA, the darkness has vanished from it indeed! The land is not dyed in gloomy colours anymore, but mirrors a bright Hyrule almost perfectly, like it has always done since OoT - it makes sense. All that's left of the former darkness is the name, "Dark World". Makes sense, too - where would the people get back the name "Sacred Realm" (or "Golden Land") from, if the thing has been known as the Dark World ever since after OoT?!

If the Sacred Realm was restored it wouldn't be a mirror image of Hyrule at all, but a formless world with a golden sky. The only reason it looks like Hyrule is because Ganon's wish made it so. Since his wish eventually gets countered by Link's, there shouldn't be a mirrored Hyrule, dark or otherwise. FSA Dark still seemed pretty dark, IMO. It's all wavy and almost dreamlike as opposed to Light World were everything has a more solid shape.

I'll add more later. I have class.

[MikePetersSucks]

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My bigger concern is Dark World still existing after ALttP. It just shouldn't. People try to pass it off a different, "less currupted" Dark World or a Dark World with Ganon no longer in power or something like that. I don't see how Dark World is any "less currupted" in FSA than in ALttP? It's bizarre and shadowy, mirror-mage of Hyrule. Why, because there aren't as many monsters in it and children can play freely in it it's not the same dark world from ALttP? Since when did Dark World have to be chock full of monsters to be "Dark World?" Dark came to be what it is because Ganon wished for the world and got a phony mirror-mage of it in the Sacred Realm. That wish got canceled out when Link wished for Ganon's evil to be undone. Therefore Dark World shouldn't still exist and FSA should go between the IW and ALttP. As for why there aren't many monsters in FSA's Dark World, obviously Ganon hasn't built up his army yet, duh!

Well, for one thing, people aren't all contorted and twisted in the Dark Realm of FSA and it doesn't look corrupted or anything. And hello? The name could've just stuck. But then again, that doesn't matter because I think the two Dark Worlds are seperate planes entirely. But meh.

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If the Sacred Realm was restored it wouldn't be a mirror image of Hyrule at all, but a formless world with a golden sky. The only reason it looks like Hyrule is because Ganon's wish made it so. Since his wish eventually gets countered by Link's, there shouldn't be a mirrored Hyrule, dark or otherwise. FSA Dark still seemed pretty dark, IMO. It's all wavy and almost dreamlike as opposed to Light World were everything has a more solid shape.

Yea, and it's also maellable due to the hearts of those who enter. If we assume it is the Sacred Realm/Dark World, where's the Triforce? It should be there. Why is the sky blue? Should be gold, even if it was the Dark World. How do we know the collective hearts of everyone who got pulled in didn't just create a mirrored Hyrule?

FSA's Dark World doesn't match with EITHER version of the Sacred Realm, though. So thus I conclude it's a seperate plane. Perhaps Ganon made it with the Dark Mirror in an attempt to regain his LTTP power.

[Fyxe]

The Dark World exists in the Oracle games too, which most people place after ALttP (because Ganon was never killed as a demon prior to ALttP).

MPS, when does the Dark World have a golden sky? It had a golden sky when the Triforce shone there, when it was the Sacred Realm, and before Ganondorf began to transform the world (and it didn't just go 'bam, Dark World', y'know, it would of been a gradual change before it became known as the Evil Realm).

I think we just have to assume that the Dark World didn't vanish completely, rather it simply started to lose influence and power (as in the Oracle games, where the motives of Onox and Veran are to restore it to it's former 'glory' by bringing back Ganon). Maybe this is because Ganon's spirit is never completely destroyed, as he's always being revived, which is why it remains but also why it loses it's power.

The Triforce never said the realm would vanish, just that the 'Dark World' as we know it would probably disappear. But it didn't even say it with certainty.