409 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

By 'universal release' do you mean 'outside Japan' or are you refering to it being released on a specialised system? Or a combination of both or some? Just curious...

Both, of course. Without a way to play the game properly in its original form, there is no way to consider the original form as canon, since it's unplayable.

[Doopliss]

It's not completely unplayable since there are some good roms out there. I don't think that we should exclude KnS from the canon games simply because it was only released in Japan. If we lived in a country were no Zelda games were released, would that force us to not consider any game as canon? In addition, we know that Japanese games are more accurate when discussing the storyline because they are the original versions made by the creators.

Just for curiosity, are you registered in Zelda Univerese forums?

[LionHarted]

It's not completely unplayable since there are some good roms out there.

Which aren't compiled/sanctioned by Nintendo. That was my point. There is no playable Nintendo-licensed version of the game in existence. The format on which the game can be played in its Nintendo-released form no longer exists.

Edited by LionHarted, 14 August 2006 - 11:03 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

This is a split timeline thread. Ganon dying in TWW does not have relevance.

Again, split timeline thread. Nobody's placing ALttP after TWW here. That's a whole other pile of fish.

Who's to say MM isn't the only game in the child timeline? We don't know it isn't for sure. That's my point.

...The knowledge of Ganon in ALttP is based SOLELY on the events of the Imprisoning War and OoT.

I agree. In ALttP the people remember OoT AND the IW, which I say are not the same thing.

They do not bare resemblance to the events of FSA.

Funny that they DO resemble FSA, then. (Not saying they're the same, cuz they're not)

Why would everyone suddenly remember OoT just because the events of FSA occured? They wouldn't.

If Zelda knew, there has to be information about it somewhere. And maybe they decided it was best for the people to learn more about the history of their mortal enemy who could escape and attack again at any day.

I've played multiplayer, I still never saw the term 'Hero of Light'.

Well its there.

All the ones we've seen in the games are. Just because we play as Link doesn't mean there can't be other heroes in Hyrule throughout the ages.

But why would we assume there are other heroes when Link is destined to appear whenever evil threatens the world? Other heroes are pretty much unnecessary.

Besides, I strongly doubt Nintendo thinks about any other heroes, and that's what matters actually.

No. No single Linkers allowed. Back to the looney bin for them.

I was talking about reincarnation, man. Reincarnation.

There's a difference between 'filling in the gaps', and there are lots of gaps so this has to occur anyway, and 'making stuff up and ignoring stuff that's already happened for the convenience of your own timeline theory'. The gaps remain, we assume Ganon got the remaining Triforce pieces, it would be perfectly possible for him to do so, but there's no reason to make up a bit of fanfiction to explain it. He did somehow, that's all. It's not impossible for him to do so, so why the hell not?

Exactly. So why would it be impossible for him to have another Sealing War after FSA in time for ALttP? We know he did, cuz otherwise it wouldn't work.

Most theories can work that in somehow as long as they place the Four Sword games in the right places.

Keyword here is "somehow."

ACTUALLY, that glow represents Link's own power, Sahasrahlalashawafa states this. It's probably nothing to do with it having the power to repel evil or not.

You cannot defeat me with a blade that does not sparkle with the power to repel evil!

It's not a fact that Link is the only one able to use the Master Sword to it's full power. It just isn't. No game ever states this.

The games say only the Legendary Hero (i.e. Link) can use the sword.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 15 August 2006 - 06:16 AM.

[Fyxe]

Without a universal release, however, Nintendo's role in developing KnS is quite irrelevant.

Bullpizzle. Fire Emblem 7 was the first Fire Emblem game to be released outside of Japan, but that doesn't mean the rest of the series didn't happen. In fact, Fire Emblem 7 is a prequel to Fire Emblem 6 and makes many references to it.

What a pile of 'America is the center of the universe' nonsense. Super Mario RPG wasn't released in Europe but we Europeans don't pretend it didn't happen. Nintendo made it, it was released in Japan, the home of video games and the home of Nintendo, and to be quite honest, whether they release it abroad or not makes not one squat of difference to it's canonicity or not. It was IMPOSSIBLE for them to release it abroad anyway due to the system it used.

That's not the point. If you take one half-assed game that's been made publicly appealing by putting Link and Zelda into it as canon, then you've got to take them all as canon.

Neither Kodai no Sekiban nor the G&W game were 'half-assed'. They were made by Nintendo and stand up to their usual quality. Have you even PLAYED either of the games? I bet you haven't, in which case you have no right to claim they are 'half-assed' and don't count.

The Cd-i games are completely and utterly different. Nintendo had no involvement in their creation, at all, and comparing the Cd-i games to Kodai no Sekiban is an insult to Nintendo and their development teams.

By considering this little filler game, which was probably intended to make Nintendo a quick couple of yen,

You mean, like FOUR SWORDS? Also, Kodai no Sekiban was FREE. Nintendo didn't get any money from it's creation, they made it as a reward for those who bought the Bs-x add-on, not as an incentive to buy the system. Lets face it, the only reason you're discounting the game is because it's Japan only. Rather biased, don't you think?

The format on which the game can be played in its Nintendo-released form no longer exists.

So. What.

Funny that they DO resemble FSA, then. (Not saying they're the same, cuz they're not)

They don't, actually. Just because Ganon is in the game doesn't mean it resembles it at all.

If Zelda knew, there has to be information about it somewhere. And maybe they decided it was best for the people to learn more about the history of their mortal enemy who could escape and attack again at any day.

That's a pretty rubbish explaination, I'm afraid. Nobody mentions anything about FSA in ALttP.

But why would we assume there are other heroes when Link is destined to appear whenever evil threatens the world? Other heroes are pretty much unnecessary.

Oh for god's sake. This is rediculous. Link is not destined to appear whenever evil threatens the world. Hell, in TWW, this is precisely what didn't happen. Other heroes can exist. Why the hell not?

Besides, I strongly doubt Nintendo thinks about any other heroes, and that's what matters actually.

There's the Knights of Hyrule, the 'Hero of Men', the nameless hero in the Four Sword backstory, and the hero who presumably gave the Master Sword to the Zoras in the Oracle games.

I was talking about reincarnation, man. Reincarnation.

Reincarnation doesn't make them the same person.

Exactly. So why would it be impossible for him to have another Sealing War after FSA in time for ALttP? We know he did, cuz otherwise it wouldn't work.

Because ALttP refers to the sealing war in OoT. And I'm not placing FSA before ALttP anyway, because it's just too messy for one thing.

Keyword here is "somehow."

Not really, I could of left the word out and the sentence would still mean the same thing.

The games say only the Legendary Hero (i.e. Link) can use the sword.

That's just false. Find a quote that says only LINK can use the Master Sword.

Edited by Fyxe, 15 August 2006 - 09:26 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Who's to say MM isn't the only game in the child timeline? We don't know it isn't for sure. That's my point.

Yea, but the Split Timeline theory was originally invented to reconcile the TWW/LTTP fiasco. Putting them in one timeline negates all purpose for a split timeline.

Reincarnation doesn't make them the same person.

Exactly. And I can go WAY indepth if I must. Do not make me go indepth, people.

[Hero of Legend]

They don't, actually. Just because Ganon is in the game doesn't mean it resembles it at all.

The Knights of Hyrule, Ganon getting sealed by Seven *Whatever*, The Dark World, etc.

That's a pretty rubbish explaination, I'm afraid. Nobody mentions anything about FSA in ALttP.

Well it's not like they mention OoT either...

Oh for god's sake. This is rediculous. Link is not destined to appear whenever evil threatens the world. Hell, in TWW, this is precisely what didn't happen. Other heroes can exist. Why the hell not?

ALttP and the Oracles disagree with you.

As for the intro of TWW, the Goddesses handled that themselves, so there was no need for a Hero.

And like I said, other Heroes only exist if Nintendo wants them to. Which they don't.

There's the Knights of Hyrule, the 'Hero of Men', the nameless hero in the Four Sword backstory, and the hero who presumably gave the Master Sword to the Zoras in the Oracle games.

The Knights of Hyrule are... Knights. Not heroes.

The others are Links. You know, with green clothes and stuff.

Reincarnation doesn't make them the same person.

No, it makes them the same person reborn. Which is necessary, because only that one person can wield the MS.

Because ALttP refers to the sealing war in OoT.

How do you know Nintendo didn't change that fact when they made TWW?

And I'm not placing FSA before ALttP anyway, because it's just too messy for one thing.

Why is it messy? It works fine for me.

That's just false. Find a quote that says only LINK can use the Master Sword.

It is not stated directly, though there quotes that prove me right. For instance, in TWW, Gohdan calls Link the "chosen one", and then we see only he can use the Master Sword.

Yea, but the Split Timeline theory was originally invented to reconcile the TWW/LTTP fiasco. Putting them in one timeline negates all purpose for a split timeline.

Well, it does solve a few incontinences between OoT and TWW, as well as explain OoT's ending in a simple way, but yeah, not much point to it. That's why I normally go with a single timeline.

[LionHarted]

And I'm not placing FSA before ALttP anyway, because it's just too messy for one thing.

Why? We get lots of things that work quite well. The Lost Woods don't exist in FSA until Ganon transforms the Forest of Light. The Lost Woods DO exist in ALttP. The thieves in Kakariko village in FSA flee to the Lost Woods at the end of FSA, if you watch the credits. They are still there in ALttP, and their hideout still exists in Kakariko in ALttP. The Knights of Hyrule are exterminated in FSA by Ganon in protecting the jewels (and probably the Shrine in which they were housed), and ALttP's war myths say that they were exterminated. Ganon is sealed away from the world in the end of FSA, and is said to have been sealed in the Dark World in ALttP.

I see nothing "messy."

That's just false. Find a quote that says only LINK can use the Master Sword.

Gladly.

"But it's not the case that just anyone can use that sword. Only the "Hero" who has defeated the three monsters and obtained the three crests can become its master, as the Hylians passed down." ~ Sahasrahla

"Only one who is able to overcome the trials that await here will be acknowledged by the gods to be a true hero. Only then will that hero be permitted to wield the power to destroy the great evil ~ King of Red Lions

Edited by LionHarted, 15 August 2006 - 11:59 AM.

[Hero of Slime]

The Knights of Hyrule are... Knights. Not heroes.

The others are Links. You know, with green clothes and stuff.

Why are the Knights not Heros? They fought and died for thier homeland, how does that not make them heroic?

The guy In the FS back story and the old Zora's story, are never described in anyway. You have no reason to believe that they are Links.

[Hero of Legend]

Why are the Knights not Heros? They fought and died for thier homeland, how does that not make them heroic?

Being heroic has nothing to do with being a Hero in the Zelda series.

The guy In the FS back story and the old Zora's story, are never described in anyway. You have no reason to believe that they are Links.

What reason do you have to believe they're not Links? Exceptions to the rule must be proved, not the other way around.

Besides, the "guy" in the FS back story was a boy from the forest. That's good enough. And I'm surprised to see YOU use that Oracles MS as proof for anything considering the dubious circumstances surrounding its existence.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 15 August 2006 - 12:42 PM.

[LionHarted]

And I'm surprised to see YOU use that Oracles MS as proof for anything considering the dubious circumstances surrounding its existence.

Agreed. You have to use a blooming password to "unlock" the Master Sword in OoX. Unlike the Linked Game function, this is an extra feature that doesn't actually impact the plot of the game. I might as well use the Biggoron's Sword as evidence that OoX takes place before ALttP, or the Bombchu. Same concept. They're little extras thrown in for nostalgia's sake.

[Doopliss]

If OoT goes before ALttP, then the Dark World didn't exist before OoT because it's the first time Ganon touched the Triforce. This means that FSA can only be placed between OoT and ALttP or after ALttP. I will assume that OoT is the Imprisnoning War in the child timeline. In that case, Ganon must have obtained the full Triforce before he was sealed. Nevertheless, he's dead by FSA, so in order to place FSA before ALttP we have to speculate that Ganon dies after he's sealed, thus he loses the Triforce, he's revived, he gets the Triforce again and he's sealed again! I think that we could call that rather messy...

Yea, but the Split Timeline theory was originally invented to reconcile the TWW/LTTP fiasco. Putting them in one timeline negates all purpose for a split timeline.
Exactly. And I can go WAY indepth if I must. Do not make me go indepth, people.

I'm bored, and you make good posts on those topics. Could you...?

As for the intro of TWW, the Goddesses handled that themselves, so there was no need for a Hero.

In that case, what prevents the goddesses from taking part in every problem Hyrule has?

Gladly.

"But it's not the case that just anyone can use that sword. Only the "Hero" who has defeated the three monsters and obtained the three crests can become its master, as the Hylians passed down." ~ Sahasrahla

"Only one who is able to overcome the trials that await here will be acknowledged by the gods to be a true hero. Only then will that hero be permitted to wield the power to destroy the great evil ~ King of Red Lions

That fails to prove that only Link can be the Hero.

[LionHarted]

If OoT goes before ALttP, then the Dark World didn't exist before OoT because it's the first time Ganon touched the Triforce.

Proof? FSA shows us that the Triforce doesn't have to be involved in the existence of a Dark World.

In that case, Ganon must have obtained the full Triforce before he was sealed.

Why? That's only if you believe he actually took the full Triforce in ALttP or the SW, and such a thing is never ever stated or implied.

Nevertheless, he's dead by FSA, so in order to place FSA before ALttP we have to speculate that Ganon dies after he's sealed, thus he loses the Triforce, he's revived, he gets the Triforce again and he's sealed again! I think that we could call that rather messy...

That's what happens when you make a double-timeline. Things get messy.

OoT--Ganon takes the Triforce. It splits into the three parts. He gets stuck with Power.
TWW--The King makes a wish on the Triforce after it is gathered. The Triforce presumably returns to the Sacred Realm, since its user dies, and waits for a new owner.
FSA--A reincarnated Ganon attacks Hyrule and is sealed by the Maidens. Since the "Sages" of Hyrule are usually involved in such sealings, they would have been remembered as "Sages".
ALttP--Ganon breaks the seal cast by the Sages (Maidens), and takes the Triforce (now back in the Golden Land). It is unknown whether the Triforce splits at this time, and is actually quite irrelevant.

That fails to prove that only Link can be the Hero.

What it proves is that only Link will be the Hero.

[Doopliss]

Proof? FSA shows us that the Triforce doesn't have to be involved in the existence of a Dark World.

We don't know where the Triforce is in FSA, but since the Sacred Realm is a reflection of the Triforce owner's heart someone must have touched it before, otherwise it wouldn't be the Dark World.

Why? That's only if you believe he actually took the full Triforce in ALttP or the SW, and such a thing is never ever stated or implied.

It's sated that Ganon was able to make his wish, in order to do so he must have the full Triforce. Two characters in ALttP state that the Sacred Realm turned into the Dark World because of Ganon's wish.

That's what happens when you make a double-timeline. Things get messy.

What it proves is that only Link will be the Hero.

How? And in the second quote you used it's clear that the King was only referring to the people who lived in the Great Sea on that time because in OoT Link didn't have to get through the Tower of the Gods, so apparently the quests that the heroes have to accomplish in order to prove that they are worthy of wielding the Master Sword have changed over time.

[Hero of Legend]

In that case, what prevents the goddesses from taking part in every problem Hyrule has?

I thought they did? We know they had an active role in ALttP, OoT and TWW. And why do you think Link and Zelda just happen to be there to stop Ganondorf every single time? “But why don't they just strike him down with lightning from the skies or something?” Well, it wouldn't be much of a game if they did.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 15 August 2006 - 03:09 PM.

[LionHarted]

We don't know where the Triforce is in FSA, but since the Sacred Realm is a reflection of the Triforce owner's heart someone must have touched it before, otherwise it wouldn't be the Dark World.

The Sacred Realm becomes the Dark World when conquered by Ganon. What do you think happens to Hyrule when conquered by Ganon? It becomes part of the Dark World. We see something to this effect happening in TP, and it is always Ganon's express goal to turn Hyrule into a "land of shadows".

It's sated that Ganon was able to make his wish, in order to do so he must have the full Triforce. Two characters in ALttP state that the Sacred Realm turned into the Dark World because of Ganon's wish.

It's also stated in OoT that the Sacred Realm will be transformed if someone with an evil heart enters it. If Ganon had an evil wish, he had an evil heart. The Realm would have been transformed as a result, whether or not he gets the full Triforce is irrelevant--especially considering he doesn't get it in OoT, and we get the same result.

How? And in the second quote you used it's clear that the King was only referring to the people who lived in the Great Sea on that time because in OoT Link didn't have to get through the Tower of the Gods, so apparently the quests that the heroes have to accomplish in order to prove that they are worthy of wielding the Master Sword have changed over time.

Only "the Hero" or "that Hero" can claim the Master Sword. Not "a Hero." The Hero.

[Jumbie]

Oh my God, what's the use of all this?
LionHarted, in case you didn't notice, this thread is the Split Timeline thread, in which Split Timelines are to be discussed. It was requested in the very first post that only Split Timeliners or people who find both Single and Split possible should participate here.
And no, you cannot just use your personal Single Timeline and conveniently split MM apart of it into the alternate timeline to get an alibi! I think it's safe to say that a Split Timeline with ALttP and TWW in the same line cannot be accepted as such.

Anyway, where were we before yesterday? Ah yes, someone questioned KnS' canonicity. It has been clarified now that it's canon just as all the other games, thus giving us, who believe ALttP>OoX>FS/FSA, evidence for that order.
Since KnS shows that the Dark World didn't vanish after ALttP even though Link got the Triforce, why should it vanish after KnS when the Triforce is not even involved? We may assume that the DW also doesn't disappear after Ganon's demise in Oracles, FSA and LoZ. It's there all along, as a necessary plot device for Twinrova to recrute Veran and Onox from there (OoX), and for Ganon's followers to recrute new forces from there (AoL).

Edited by Jumbie, 15 August 2006 - 08:20 PM.

[LionHarted]

Link's not the only one who can use the Master Sword. In the Japanese manual for ALttP, it says that anyone that is a hero can wield the Master Sword.

More accurately, it says that "only a true Hero could use it." The only character who is ever named a true hero is Link.

Tetra in TWW picked up the Master Sword, so guess what? She's a hero.

Picking up the Master Sword and using its power to smite evil are two different things.

I think it's safe to say that a Split Timeline with ALttP and TWW in the same line cannot be accepted as such.

I think it's safe to say that the connections between ALttP and TWW are notable enough to even be taken into account in a split timeline.

Since KnS shows that the Dark World didn't vanish after ALttP even though Link got the Triforce, why should it vanish after KnS when the Triforce is not even involved?

The Triforce cannot lie--that is why it is called the "True Force". KnS shows that the Triforce lied. KnS is utter BS. No wonder it's called BS Zelda.

And no, you cannot just use your personal Single Timeline and conveniently split MM apart of it into the alternate timeline to get an alibi!

The entire split timeline theory is a personal opinion about a far-from-literal interpretation of developer quotes that hardly suggest what split timeline theorists say they suggest. "Two endings" does not entail "two timelines." "Two endings" entails just that--that there are two points from which the game can be considered to have "ended." There can be games that take place immediately after Link defeats Ganon (TP) and games that can take place in the past (MM). How in the world people contrive multiple timelines from that statement is beyond me.

Edited by LionHarted, 16 August 2006 - 12:11 PM.

[Fyxe]

Well, I'm kinda used to a game released after another being a prequel. The reason that I'm not counting the game (KnS) is because I cannot play it in its original form.

Well boo hoo. You are not the center of the universe. Canon doesn't give a damn whether you can play it or not.

I don't care for this country very much, but at least it's not a third world country.

I really hope you're not dissing third world countries for being poor.

I haven't played either. I don't even think I've even seen a screenshot...

Then you have absolutely no right to claim anything about them *at all*.

Well I'm sorry if you all have different methods than I do. I'd heard of the game years ago, and thought nothing of it until now. If you want me to see how good it is and how important it is to the timeline, then tell me where I can get my hands on a, um, compilation of its code and a program to run it on.

Google is a wonderful thing. Look for the BS Zelda Homepage, actually hosted on Zelda Legends, I believe. They'll tell you all you need to know.

I didn't know about it being free... I've really only been seriously involved in the Zelda community for the past year. You have to cut me some slack. I didn't know I'd have to study for a big test on Nintendo's history anytime soon.

Ok, ok, but you shouldn't make claims about games you know little about, that's all.

Some of us think it's important to be able to play a game in its original form.

Plenty of Japanese people *did* play the game in its original form. Just because you don't have the means to play a game doesn't mean it doesn't 'count'. If you had no money for video games that doesn't mean they wouldn't exist.

Actually, FSA is very similar to the Seal War. We have Ganon who's gotten his hands on a source of incredible power, there's Knights of Hyrule which have been killed by Ganon, and there's seven people with powerful magic that seal Ganon away. I think it's very similar.

So? OoT has three magical stones that allow you to weild the Master Sword, Link gets drawn into a dark visage of Hyrule, and he defeats Ganon using magic arrows and the Master Sword. Listen, just because Nintendo reuses themes doesn't mean two events are so similar. There are a multitude of vast differences between the Imprisoning War and FSA.

It doesn't match up, and it doesn't have to if there's two Seal Wars. The ALttP manual references one Seal War, whereas the game references another.

Uh, no, it's the same war, why the holy hell would Nintendo have confused the crap out of everyone by making up two wars for the third game in the series, and having the manual tell a completely different backstory to the one in-game? Answer, they wouldn't, that's just bonkers.

How is it that Link is the last Knight of Hyrule in ALttP and there's four known Knights of Hyrule in FSA? I thought that after ALttP Link died they'd all be gone, because it is genetically impossible for Link to carry on the line of the Knights if there's not a female Knight of Hyrule to, well, you get the point.

Oh, and all the knights bred with other knights? They wouldn't sleep with non-knight women? What about Link's mother, was she a knight? Listen, despite the fact that Link is certainly not a 'pureblooded' knight anyway, THEY'RE DIFFERENT KNIGHTS. Knights are knights. Just because they're called Knights of Hyrule doesn't mean anything. Malon ain't the same Malon in every game. In fact, the term 'Knights of Hyrule' was made up for the translation of ALttP. In the Japanese version they're just called 'family of knights', and we don't know what the knights in FSA were called in the Japanese version.

I think it's safe to say that the connections between ALttP and TWW are notable enough to even be taken into account in a split timeline.

WHAT connections?

The Triforce cannot lie--that is why it is called the "True Force".

What the hell. You just made that up.

KnS shows that the Triforce lied.

It didn't lie. It said the Dark World will 'surely' vanish, meaning 'in all likelyhood'. It's not saying for definite that it will go away completely. It never says that.

The entire split timeline theory is a personal opinion about a far-from-literal interpretation of developer quotes that hardly suggest what split timeline theorists say they suggest.

If you take everything so damn literally you're going to miss the point hundreds and hundreds of times. If you read the whole interview, they say that TWW occurs centuries after the adult ending of OoT. Why would they make a distinction about what ending it occurs after? There's only seven years inbetween each ending, and they only give a general 'hundreds of years' time difference between OoT and TWW. So why would they specify the adult ending? Maybe it's a strange translation of the interview but it's implying that it makes a difference.

Edited by Fyxe, 16 August 2006 - 12:15 PM.

[LionHarted]

WHAT connections?

--The only two games in which the Triforce is called the "Golden Power" are TWW and ALttP;
--The original TMC logo displayed a Master Sword whose design and colour scheme were identical to that of ALttP (with the gold hilt) rather than to OoT-TWW's (with the blue hilt)--in essence, TMC can't come before OoT because it breaks continuity (and can't come after without being after TWW or after ALttP);
--Spectacle Island probably is Spectacle Rock from ALttP and LoZ/AoL;
--FSA originally used ALttP sprites and art style, but the style was changed to that of TWW at the last minute (whether or not you consider this to be signficant is irrelevant);
--TWW makes mention of "Knights of Hyrule"

What the hell. You just made that up.

I revise my previous statement--the Triforce is the most accurate source of information about itself and the Sacred Realm in which it dwells. If it says that something about itself or the Sacred Realm, that's probably how it is. It says the Dark World will vanish.

It didn't lie. It said the Dark World will 'surely' vanish, meaning 'in all likelyhood'. It's not saying for definite that it will go away completely. It never says that.

Essence of the Triforce (Japanese version): "However, now that Ganon, who touched the Triforce, has fallen, the World of Darkness shall disappear as well."

Umm. Yes, it does.

If you read the whole interview, they say that TWW occurs centuries after the adult ending of OoT.

Yes. Aonuma says that TWW is "after OoT." When MM was released, it was said to be "after OoT" as well. Aonuma is making a distinction here as to what "after OoT" means. In fact, Aonuma himself says that the hundred years starts "from the end" before Miyamoto interjects in an attempt to better clarify what "from the end" means in this case. If this "two ending" concept was so important, why does he ignore it in his first answer?

Edited by LionHarted, 16 August 2006 - 12:29 PM.

[Fyxe]

...

Ooookay. You are a *master* at missing the points I am trying to make. I am not gonna repeat the stuff about the interview again. Read what I said again, and actually read it *carefully* this time.

And oh, however you translate the Japanese, who's to say that the Dark World can't come back? KnS proves that Nintendo was quite willing to bring it back if there was a power enough to restore it.

[LionHarted]

You can infer whatever you want. If their intention was to demonstrate two timelines, that's what they should have said. They didn't, so I can't assume that's what they meant. The only interpretation of that article that we can make without even *possibly* skewing it is a literal one.

And oh, however you translate the Japanese, who's to say that the Dark World can't come back? KnS proves that Nintendo was quite willing to bring it back if there was a power enough to restore it.

Does KnS actually feature a power that restores said Dark World? If so, then you ought have said so earlier, and had no reason to even bring up the "vanishing" quote, because it becomes inapplicable if the Dark World is created again. You worded it as though the Dark World never disappeared. In fact, you even said that the Dark World never disappeared:

KnS shows that the Dark World didn't vanish after ALttP

Edited by LionHarted, 16 August 2006 - 12:38 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

No, it makes them the same person reborn. Which is necessary, because only that one person can wield the MS.

One person weilding the Master Sword ASIDE... Reincarnation is not about a person being reborn. The reincarnate receives new memories and develops a new personality with merely elements of the old person imbued within. Hell, Buddhists, one of the biggest religions to support reincarnation next to Hinduism, doesn't even believe in the existence of the soul.

Exactly. And I can go WAY indepth if I must. Do not make me go indepth, people.

I'm bored, and you make good posts on those topics. Could you...?

Very well. Well, most religions, including new age pagans, hindus, Jainists, etc. that support reincarnation see the soul as a diamond with many sides. One side of the diamond is "dipped" in the universe, lives, and dies. Now that side shall forever be Doopliss or whoever. Now the diamond turns, and a new face is dipped. Poopliss, the new side of the diamond, is the same person, yet not. He lives dies, and the diamond turns, etc.

However, this expands to the concept of family, loved ones, friends, and soulmates. They are, according to Jainism, just several sides of the same diamond incarnating at once, explaining significant love for that person. Going even farther, all life on Earth are different sides of the Earth diamond, etc.

New Age philosophies use this as an excellent metaphor to emphasize how we're all one with God or whatever.

Yes. Aonuma says that TWW is "after OoT." When MM was released, it was said to be "after OoT" as well. Aonuma is making a distinction here as to what "after OoT" means. In fact, Aonuma himself says that the hundred years starts "from the end" before Miyamoto interjects in an attempt to better clarify what "from the end" means in this case. If this "two ending" concept was so important, why does he ignore it in his first answer?

and LTTP is supposed to be "After" OOT as well. Do we put it after TWW or MM? Well quite obviously, we put it in the opposite timeline of TWW, since the timeline theory was invented to reconcile the problems with TWW and LTTP. I was there, it's fact. If TWW and LTTP are not seperate, there's no reason for a split timeline.

[LionHarted]

One person weilding the Master Sword ASIDE... Reincarnation is not about a person being reborn. The reincarnate receives new memories and develops a new personality with merely elements of the old person imbued within. Hell, Buddhists, one of the biggest religions to support reincarnation next to Hinduism, doesn't even believe in the existence of the soul.

They believe in the existence of the "self", which, for all intents and purposes, is the same thing.

Do we put it after TWW or MM?

Since MM is neither effectively "after" or "before" OoT (but, rather, sometime in-between the past and future), saying that it is "after MM" would mean that we put it in that "in-between" limbo. Nothing stops TWW from being after both OoT and MM.

Well quite obviously, we put it in the opposite timeline of TWW, since the timeline theory was invented to reconcile the problems with TWW and LTTP. I was there, it's fact. If TWW and LTTP are not seperate, there's no reason for a split timeline.

There is no compelling reason for TWW and ALttP to be seperate.

[Hero of Slime]

If you are just going to argue about how there should not be a split timeline you should not be in a thread to discuss the perfect one.

It has been clarified now that it's canon just as all the other games, thus giving us, who believe ALttP>OoX>FS/FSA, evidence for that order.

How does KnS contradict ALttP-FS-FSA-OoX?

[Arturo]

OMG!!!!!

I disappear for one day and all these... topics appears as if from nowhere. For Din's sake you couldn't post more slowly?

Which aren't compiled/sanctioned by Nintendo. That was my point. There is no playable Nintendo-licensed version of the game in existence. The format on which the game can be played in its Nintendo-released form no longer exists.

I've got a question: AND? What does it have to do? That the original game is no-more, doesn't mean it's not canon. Thanks to God we have still ROMs, that someday will even have dungeons!




Concerning TWW-ALttP.... Let's play logic!


IF

OoT is the TWW Backstory
OoT is the Seal War (Don't argue this point or I will not answer any of you, it has been stated in-game and off-game, so don't argue)
In TWW Backstory Ganon breaks the Seal and escapes
In ALttP Ganon is breaking the seal to escape


THEN

ALttP and TWW are totally and utterly incompatible
TWW BS is what didn't happen on ALttP (Ganon Broke the Seal and Escaped)
Then we have a Split Timeline, with a Child Timeline where Link stops Ganon from breaking the Seal (ALttP) and another, an Adult one, where there is no hero and Ganon escapes and the King wishes Hyrule to flood. END OF THE STORY


Bye bye!

[LionHarted]

ALttP and TWW are totally and utterly incompatible

Why? Ganon is sealed again in FSA.

Then we have a Split Timeline, with a Child Timeline where Link stops Ganon from breaking the Seal (ALttP) and another, an Adult one, where there is no hero and Ganon escapes and the King wishes Hyrule to flood.

Why? How? And since when is there a seal in the child timeline?

There must be a rather large gap between OoT and ALttP because in ALttP there are no Hylians, and in OoT, they run rampant. TWW fills this gap rather nicely.

Edited by LionHarted, 16 August 2006 - 02:56 PM.

[Jumbie]

KnS shows that the Triforce lied. KnS is utter BS. No wonder it's called BS Zelda.

KnS is canon.

The entire split timeline theory is a personal opinion about a far-from-literal interpretation of developer quotes that hardly suggest what split timeline theorists say they suggest.

This interview is but one pillar of the Split Timeline concept. The main pillar is the 'ALttP vs. TWW' conflict, adressed so neatly by Arturo.

--The only two games in which the Triforce is called the "Golden Power" are TWW and ALttP;

So what?! How in hell does that imply a chonological connection between the two games?

--The original TMC logo displayed a Master Sword whose design and colour scheme were identical to that of ALttP (with the gold hilt) rather than to OoT-TWW's (with the blue hilt)--in essence, TMC can't come before OoT because it breaks continuity (and can't come after without being after TWW or after ALttP);

You sound ridiculous, know that? That logo was never used in the eventual game, since it's simply not apt to show the Master Sword in the logo of a game that doesn't even involve that sword.

--Spectacle Island probably is Spectacle Rock from ALttP and LoZ/AoL;

Outta ya mind?! How the hell does this imply that Spectactle Rock cannot appear in both timelines just the same?

--FSA originally used ALttP sprites and art style, but the style was changed to that of TWW at the last minute (whether or not you consider this to be signficant is irrelevant);

Aha, so it's irrelevant if I tell you that doesn't matter? What a nice little 'arro-iggy' we have here!

--TWW makes mention of "Knights of Hyrule"

Again: How the hell does this imply that the Knights cannot appear in both timelines just the same?

Does KnS actually feature a power that restores said Dark World?

Yes, the title-giving Ancient Stone Tablets. Well, I'm currently in the middle of the game, so I don't know how exactly they work, but Fyxe will be able to give you a competent answer.

then you ought have said so earlier, and had no reason to even bring up the "vanishing" quote, because it becomes inapplicable if the Dark World is created again. You worded it as though the Dark World never disappeared. In fact, you even said that the Dark World never disappeared

Okay it's true, I admit that. But that's due to the fact that I haven't finished KnS yet. I don't know if the Dark World never vanished or was brought back by Ganon's stone tablets.

If you are just going to argue about how there should not be a split timeline you should not be in a thread to discuss the perfect one.

Exactly! Couldn't Showsni ask LionHarted (and MoALttP) to put up a Split Timeline into their signature? After all, at the beginning Mohammedali set up the prerequisite that in this thread no Single Timeliners may trouble us others with their pathetic "two Imprisoning Wars" whining.

How does KnS contradict ALttP-FS-FSA-OoX?

Oops, you got me again while I was a little too general.. Of course KnS itself doesn't contradict this particular order.

And since when is there a seal in the child timeline?

Lots of people have asked themselves that before... What Arturo and I would tell you is that the Seal was made to transcend time(lines). While this theory cannot be backed up by any quotes, it's one way to explain how the Seal in the Child Timeline came to be. If you ask me though, I don't need an explanation for that at all, because it's just a fact that it's there, as it's obviously there in ALttP which follows in the Child Timeline after OoT/MM.

In fact, TWW speaks of the Hylians as if they're dying out. Hence Ganon only searching for girls with pointed ears. Boy, he's got a strange fetish.

I have a thing for pointed ears, too! In fact, every time I see an anime character with normal round ears, I'm a little alienated However, TP will take care of that problem, seeing as Link and the clowns are so far the only charas with pointed ears..

Edited by Jumbie, 16 August 2006 - 05:29 PM.