1600 replies to this topic

[Hero of Legend]

You missed TWW. I'm not surprised given that Ganondorf's wish on the Triforce disproves your entire point. At don't tell me you forgot; it's one of most prominent games in the timeline.

No, I didn't. I mentioned TWW, and in case you hadn't noticed, the wish expressed by TWW Ganondorf is unique. It is a personal motive, not shared by others of his ilk. And, hell, if you want to bring that up again, does the King's original wish to revive Hyrule make him evil? Does he wish to conquer the world? Does Ganondorf? We don't know, because TWW Ganondorf is so different from all other incarnations of his character, and it is useless to speculate; indeed quite useless: especially since no other Ganon has shared that wish. And even if Ganondorf had always wanted Hyrule, it still would not say anything about his motives.

By that logic, Manchester in the USA is also the same city as Manchester in the UK, because they have the same name. It doesn't matter that the two have different locations, different functions, different people, are altogether different from each other. Only the name matters.

Did I say that? No. But every game since OoT, and even ALttP, has said that the Triforce rests somewhere in Hyrule, AND that the resting place of the Triforce is the Sacred Realm. By extension, Hyrule is, and always has been the Sacred Realm (or rather, the Sacred Realm has been part of Hyrule).

"The three goddesses hid the Triforce containing the power of the gods somewhere in Hyrule." - OoT

"And, the resting place of the triangles has become the Sacred Realm." - OoT

Get it?

TP just extended the meaning to cover all of Hyrule, rather than just the holy grounds protected by the Temple of Time.

So the Triforce is not Hyrule's symbol? Even when we see it all over Hyrule and on the Royal Family crest?

That makes it a symbol of the royal family (and upside down it?s a symbol for Outset Island?). But okay, I'll admit, it could represent Hyrule. What reasons, other than pure speculation, do you have to make me believe it does?

Power is the means, dominance is the end. The Triforce is the power Ganon sought to dominate Hyrule and the world. The Fused Shadows is the power the Dark Tribe had to dominate Hyrule, and perhaps later the world.

Yet Ganondorf needed power to ever hope to obtain the Triforce. How is this different?

The Dark Tribe is depicted standing in front of the Triforce in the act of killing someone who seeks the Triforce. This actively suggests the Dark Tribe have control of the Triforce. If they did not, we would see them looking toward the Triforce, if not making the same movements as the civilian.

That scene obviously represents their dominance in the war over the Triforce; everyone sought it, but the magic users defeated them with the power of the crystallized shadow. Again, this shows why they needed the power of shadow in order to obtain the Triforce.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 06 May 2008 - 05:07 PM.

[LionHarted]

With so many people competing for control of Hyrule, eventually a good handful are bound to try to go for the Triforce.

That anyone, save perhaps LionHarted, would ignore this obvious fact simply boogles my mind.

I should probably note, as a point of irony, that the direct association between the Sacred Realm and Hyrule was also part of an actual fanfiction idea I had going about a month before we found this out.

(While this is largely irrelevant, it's essentially the entire series crammed together - the part of the kingdom of Hyrule in which the Triforce is hidden is conquered by Ganon and sealed away from the world by literally being ripped from the earth, causing the ocean to divide the world.)

[Jumbie]

So why does Ganon want to conquer Hyrule after he has the Triforce? Why does any evil king in any fairy tale and fantasy story want conquest over lands that do not bare any real magical powers? The fact is that even if Hyrule was not a holy land, dominance over land and people is symbolic of power, which by definition is the drive of evil kings to conquest. Hyrule being a holy land only adds to the significance of this motivation, because it represents the power of gods. It makes Hyrule the centre of evil designs by Ganondorf and the Dark Tribe.

Of course, the villains can do zero having the Triforce but no realm to rule over. But what you said only becomes relevant after someone has grasped the Triforce, then it is that they require a land to control.

The Triforce isn't some sort of status symbol, rather it can be a warranty that your dominion over a country will never see an end. (That is, if you're a demon king - the Hylian kings still retain enough reason to see that they're only "a child of man, too" and must abide by the law of succession.)

Now we know the Dark Tribe did not take the Triforce because that would lead to some real problems regarding the Zelda universe, so that really leaves us with one conclusion as to what the Triforce means. It cannot be literal, and thus it must be Hyrule.

Totally not seeing what you draw this conclusion from. The point of Lanayru's story was that the light spirits stopped the magic users before they reached their goal. How could that goal not be to touch the Triforce?
Those problems are not apparent within the context of TP. We have to examine Japanese ALttP and OoT to solve them.

And btw, calling the Twili's ancestors "Dark Tribe" makes you sound like you acknowledge they're the same tribe from FSA. Not that that's a bad thing at all...

Power is the means, dominance is the end. The Triforce is the power Ganon sought to dominate Hyrule and the world. The Fused Shadows is the power the Dark Tribe had to dominate Hyrule, and perhaps later the world.

So you discount the possibility that the Fused Shadows were their power used to obtain the power to dominate the world?!

So why does Ganon want to conquer Hyrule?

Here's the simple answer: He doesn't. Ganon is never said to care specifically about Hyrule - he just wants to rule the world. The exception is TWW, in which he had personal motivations, but that does not aid your theory.

Those motivations in TWW stem from OoT Ganondorf's beginning years, thus the Ganondorf in TP (and ALttP, in my case) is bound to share them. Or make that every other Ganon actually, seeing as FSA Ganondorf, too, was born in the harsh desert.

No, there's an even simpler answer: Hyrule is the most obvious spot on the Zelda planet to establish one's seat of world domination in, this being where what Raian says comes in.

Btw, when TWW Ganondorf says he coveted the wind blowing in Hyrule - the Kanji for "wind" can also mean "style, way", which would make this a pun. Then again, I haven't looked at that Japanese text yet.

[Raien]

Let me try to demonstrate my argument simply.

We can either assume that "holy land" refers to the Sacred Realm or the land of Hyrule. Likewise, the Triforce can either be literal or, as I believe, it can be a symbol of Hyrule.

Under NOA's translation, I believed that the Dark Tribe had control of the Sacred Realm and thus the Triforce was literal. But I found this problematic because if they had control of the Triforce, they could remake the world in the image of the wish. Thus, the power through which the tribe dominated would be the Triforce, not their shadow magic.
I had thought of the possibilities that the Dark Tribe were holding the entrance to the Sacred Realm or something, but this really didn't fit the context or the imagery, which actively suggest that the Dark Tribe had control of the Sacred Realm (their bodies and the Fused Shadows stand in the way of the Triforce) and thus tried to rule it with their dominance established. If they did not have control of the Sacred Realm, their visual stance and the words "tried to rule" would be completely unjustified.

So let's look at everything from the perspective that the "holy land" is Hyrule. My first point is to address the problem I referred to earlier. If the fighting was over Hyrule, and the Dark Tribe's shadow magic was enough to dominate over Hyrule, then we eliminate the problem with what must be done with the Triforce. The Triforce must only play a part in Lanayru's scene if you believe that Hyrule's only significance is as the resting place of the Triforce. I do not believe this assertion is necessary because Ganon tried to dominate Hyrule with the Trident. I believe that dominating Hyrule is the motivation for taking the Triforce, not vice versa. If Hyrule can be dominated without the Triforce, then it shall be done.

One little addition worth noting is that seeing the holy land as Hyrule clarifies Ganondorf's comparison between the Fused Shadows and the Triforce. Both powers were used for the exact same purpose of conquering Hyrule, but only Ganondorf believed his power was strong enough to succeed. If the Triforce was the target of the Dark Tribe's magic, and not Hyrule, this comparison would be meaningless.

My second point is that Lanayru's scene actively suggests that the Triforce represents Hyrule, because when we are told about changes to the holy land (including the effects of the Dark Tribe), these quotations are accompanied by images affecting the Triforce. In one example, as it is said the Dark Tribe tried to control the holy land with powerful magic, we see the Fused Shadows rise in front of the Triforce to cover it. As the Tribe were said to be sealed away from Hyrule, the Fused Shadows falls to reveal the Triforce again. Given that the literal depiction of the kingdom could not be depicted in the symbolic manner with Link and Illia, it is not surprising that they chose Hyrule's symbol to represent it.

I am quite aware that choosing a metaphor over the literal can appear to unnecessasily complicate things, but given the context that the metaphor creates is actually more straightforward, I think I'm justified in my belief.

Edited by Raian, 07 May 2008 - 06:25 PM.

[Raien]

Sorry to double-post, but I feel it is worth it in this case. This is my response to a post MPS made before it got deleted in the last couple of days. MPS suggested, like HoL before him, that the Dark Tribe got access to the Sacred Realm and were just about to reach the Triforce before the Light Spirits intervened. My problem with this is that the text and images do not suggest this progression of events, and that my interpretation is ultimately more straightforward.


1) Let's look at the visuals first. We see a civilian running toward the Triforce, which suggests that the Triforce is in his reach. And then the Dark Tribe stands in his way and destroys him. The Fused Shadows rise up to block out sight of the Triforce.

From the literal point of view, the man appears to have access to the Triforce, but we know he does not because he either does not know where the Sacred Realm is or the Sacred Realm is sealed from him. The Dark Tribe stands in front of the Triforce with their backs turned to it, which quite simply denotes control of the Triforce, yet we know they don't have control of the Triforce. The Fused Shadows rises to block the Triforce, and yet there is no interaction between the Fused Shadows and the Triforce according to the literal interpretation.

From the symbolic point of view (that the Triforce is Hyrule), the man has access to possession of Hyrule, but he is then destroyed by the Dark Tribe. The Dark Tribe stand in front of Hyrule with their backs turned to it, which tells us that they have possession of the kingdom. The Fused Shadows was the power that dominated the kingdom (and thus it blocks out the Triforce).

So as I see it, there doesn't appear to be a working relationship between the images and what MPS has suggested they represent. And yet I see a working relationship from the symbolic perspective, and that it possesses an ultimately simpler progression of events relating to the fighting for the kingdom.


2) Now let's look at the text. To look at Jumbie's translation again:

For a long time, the world was at peace, with people's hearts being deeply faithful?
But at length, a rivalry ensued over Hyrule, the holy land.
In the midst of the people, persons who excelled at magic appeared.
With powerful sorcery, they tried to rule the holy land.
But the goddesses sent us light spirits to seal away the gigantic magic of those people.
And that very sorcery is the black power? the Crystal Stone of Shadow.

I don't even need to make any comparisons with this. The Triforce has absolutely no reference in the text, and neither is there any distinction between the holy land that is stated to be Hyrule and the holy land that we recognise as the Sacred Realm. With that said, the text completely supports the symbolic perspective that I identified with the visuals. There was fighting over Hyrule and the Dark Tribe appeared to claim possession of Hyrule with the Fused Shadows.

Edited by Raian, 10 May 2008 - 01:05 PM.

[LionHarted]

Let's look at the visuals first. We see a civilian running toward the Triforce, which suggests that the Triforce is in his reach. And then the Dark Tribe stands in his way and destroys him. The Fused Shadows rise up to block out sight of the Triforce.

Yes.

Link is the character running toward the Triforce, having just killed Ilia as a signification of the rivalries taking place - probably also as a signification of the struggles pitting friend against friend. Many of them appear to be hunting for the Triforce, hence the image being there in the first place.

But the Shadow Clan rises above them all with their use of the Fused Shadows and eradicate all who oppose them, hence why the Light Spirits are sent to intervene.

[Hero of Legend]

Ha! My post got deleted. Fortunately I saved it before it was lost. I dunno if you saw this before Raian, but here it is again anyway. It's funny how I made almost exactly the opposite analysis of that scene...

Those motivations in TWW stem from OoT Ganondorf's beginning years, thus the Ganondorf in TP (and ALttP, in my case) is bound to share them. Or make that every other Ganon actually, seeing as FSA Ganondorf, too, was born in the harsh desert.

Well, it's a bit silly to think that ALttP Ganon would be affected by his more modern counterpart, seeing as how that game was made some 10 years prior to TWW. And while you are technically correct, the developers don't actually need to consider Ganondorf's previous motives when they make new games. Do you think TP and FSA Ganondorf act like TWW Ganondorf? I, quite frankly, do not. Therefore, I am led to believe Ganondorf's personality in TWW was a result of that individual game's plot, rather than a fundamental change of the nature of that character.

No, there's an even simpler answer: Hyrule is the most obvious spot on the Zelda planet to establish one's seat of world domination in, this being where what Raian says comes in.

Well, I already admitted as much - the resting place of the Triforce is a good place to start one's dominion over the world. Still, that's quite different from Hyrule having some intrinsical symbolic value, isn't it?

the Fused Shadows falls to reveal the Triforce again.

Actually, it doesn't... Maybe we could use a video here, huh?

Video.

So... I'll admit, your conclusions are not bad - In fact, I've considered them myself; it does make sense, to some extent, if it were symbolic. However, such an interpretation ignores many of the key things in that scene, and ultimately, it's simply not viable.

Let's go through it, step-by-step:

First we see an abridged version of OoT's creation story. Keeping this in mind, it does not make sense at all for the Triforce to represent Hyrule. Why? Because in accordance with OoT, and common sense really, the Triforce is not Hyrule; the green hill, which is created by the goddesses prior to the Triforce, is. The hill then becomes the resting place of the Triforce; i.e. the sacred place.

Second, it is only when the Triforce appears that any sign of evil/corruption is shown in Hyrule... and why not? That's how the story's gone in every other game; Hyrule is at unrest and war because of the people's lust for the Triforce. This goes along with the people losing their faith and demanding more than the gods have given them.

Third, while your post might imply otherwise, the struggle is not over Hyrule; it is over the sacred place, which in all other instances (within this context ? see OoT) is defined as the resting place of the Triforce. Again, the use of the name 'sacred place' instead of Hyrule implies a relation to the Triforce.

Now, the vision shows Link killing Illia and then running towards the Triforce, only to be destroyed by the magic users. At the same time, the Crystal Stone of Shadow is shown blocking the Triforce. You claim this shows the shadow clan's dominion over Hyrule; I say it shows their victory in the war over the Triforce. Neither is obviously wrong. In fact, both may be correct, in a way, since dominion over Hyrule is comes naturally with the Triforce; but the meaning of the hill and Triforce would have to be entirely different for your theory to work as it is.

Finally, the whole point of the story is to warn Link not to get corrupted by his lust for power. Again, this has obvious implications; because the imagery shows the conflict starting before the shadow clan arose (even if the text says the shadow clan started the war, it appears they were not the only ones going after the 'price') there has to be something the people lusted for; and past games tell us that something is the Triforce.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 10 May 2008 - 02:59 PM.

[Raien]

Link is the character running toward the Triforce, having just killed Ilia as a signification of the rivalries taking place - probably also as a signification of the struggles pitting friend against friend. Many of them appear to be hunting for the Triforce, hence the image being there in the first place.

But the Shadow Clan rises above them all with their use of the Fused Shadows and eradicate all who oppose them, hence why the Light Spirits are sent to intervene.

The visuals signify access and control of the Triforce, not fighting for information about the location of the Sacred Realm. If that barrier existed, the stance of the Dark Tribe would be more similar to the civilian they murdered. Because after all, the Dark Tribe can't control the Sacred Realm if they don't know where it is; anyone can find it by chance.

And it's typical that you ignored the text, whose meaning corresponds with the visuals. Changes to Hyrule are signified by symbolic interactions with the Triforce, which ultimately tells us that the Triforce represents Hyrule. Lines such as "With powerful sorcery, they tried to rule the holy land." can only make sense with the visuals if they were conquering Hyrule with that magic.

I really feels like you're grasping for straws with this. Your interpretation is too loose for it to signify what you say it signifies.

PS: I will respond to your post later, HoL, because it takes too long to type with my Wii, which is the only thing I can use right now.

Edited by Raian, 10 May 2008 - 03:04 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Jumbie's going to kill me for fueling this debate but... anyone here cares to speculate why the middle "dark Link" gets colored after the original is zapped out of existence? (I mantain my opinion that it is merely a point of view switch, but would like to hear that of others)

[Hero of Legend]

Probably what you said; the reason the game uses Link/Illia is to show that anyone could be corrupted by greed (which Ganondorf is said have been, btw); even Link. Dark Link was probably used because it worked well with a 'dark tribe' (and making for a neat FSA-reference?) and when the sides are turned, it's probably to show that 'Link' could fit into both groups, i.e. there was no difference between the desire of the magic users and the other people in Hyrule.

Btw, remember that Lanayru doesn?t say the Fused Shadow was the chief object of the evil desire; it could be any power. And since normal people would have no reason to desire that dark power, it again points to, well, the ?other? power in that vision.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 10 May 2008 - 06:30 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

when the sides are turned, it's probably to show that 'Link' could fit into both groups, i.e. there was no difference between the desire of the magic users and the other people in Hyrule.

Ah, actually what I meant by point of view switch was that the color switch only represented Link still being experiencing the vision first hand, not as a spectator
Not that this contrasts with your interpretation which may very well be correct too.

[CID Farwin]

The 'Sacred Realm'...is Hyrule?

what?!

*BRAIN EXPLOSION*

At least I'm getting it now that I've digested it a little.

Now to the current debate:

Your idea works, Raian, I like it. The Triforce is the symbol of Hyrule? Yeah, I guess it is. However, there are a few things I feel the need to point out.

1.

My problem with this is that the text and images do not suggest this progression of events, and that my interpretation is ultimately more straightforward.

Many things make much more sense if the Triforce itself is eradicated from the game, yet it's there. The appearance of the Triforce could be only a symbol of Hyrule, but that only really works if there isn't an actual Triforce which has been the object of people's greed. It makes more sense, yes, but not in context of the rest of the game (and by extension, the rest of the series.)

2. The term 'sacred realm' seeming to occasionally refer to Hyrule (through further review,) changes things in the relation of the Triforce, Hyrule, and (for newfound lack of a better term) the Golden Land. The picture painted by previous games is that if someone is after the sacred realm, they're really after the Triforce. If 'sacred realm' refers to Hyrule, then it follows suit that if someone is after Hyrule, they're after the Triforce. Now, to me, that hurts your argument.

3. Allow me to make a comparison: say someone builds a mansion somewhere and leaves mountains of gold in a vault in the basement. Almost everyone knows of it, and fights arise over ownership of the mansion. Eventually, some of the people fighting, who were wielding guns, break into the mansion. Just before they can get the gold, though, the cops come and arrest them.

Now this, to me, seems a satisfactory allegory to Lanayru's vision.

From what I see, an allegory to your version would go something like this: say someone builds a mansion somewhere and leaves mountains of gold in a vault in the basement. Almost everyone knows of it, and fights arise over ownership of the mansion. Eventually, some of the people fighting, who were wielding guns, break into the mansion. They proceed to move in and live in the mansion (quite a fine mansion, mind you. Surely a symbol of power) until the cops come and arrest them.

That's my view. It doesn't seem to work. Given the apparent symbolism you point out, I'd be willing to accept your version of Lanayru's vision, where the Triforce symbolizes Hyrule if not for that. Given the previous games, I'm more inclined to think that they're actually after the Triforce itself. (remember point 2, they may be synonymous)

4. What you're saying only really makes sense if there's an invasion of Hyrule. If you're hanging to symbolism, then Hyrule--symbolized by the Triforce--was there and then these people came and conquered it--symbolized by the fused(crystallized? Hm, I guess that they kind of are) shadow. They came from outside and conquered, according to the symbolism. These people, however, aren't 'interlopers,' (Jumbie has shown us that no such reference exists,) so how are they conquering if they're already there?

5. This one's stupid semantics, but the symbol for Hyrule would be the whole crest, not just the Triforce.


Oh, and Serkol's stuff:

I'm inclined to agree that it appears to only be a point-of-view switch. Link just got obliterated, he's got to go somewhere.

But then again, what HoL brought up could work too.

Hm.

But here's another one: why does Link's clothing suddenly change after he kills 'Ilia'?

[Duke Serkol]

why does Link's clothing suddenly change after he kills 'Ilia'?

I would say because Link's "farmboy clothes" are those of a peace loving man, while the hero's garb is fitting for a warrior.

[Prime Blue]

I assembled a list of all the requested quotes from the Japanese version of The Wind Waker. The only thing missing is Hero of Legend's request of the Great Deku Tree's story of the Hero of Time. I wasn't able to find it in there as I have no clue about what he could actually say about him (the only thing I know is that he doesn't mention the term "Hero of Time").

It will be easy to find the passages in the newly released Japanese text dump.


01) Hero Legend
Begins with:

その昔、神々の力が眠るといわれた 王国がありました。

02) Grandma
Whole passage:

そんな顔するもんじゃないよ いいから、着てごらん 今日はお前が　昔話に出てくる勇者様と 同じ歳になったお祝いの日なんだから 1日ぐらい　我慢しないと

03) Odori
Begins with:

じゃが・・・お前の剣には気迫以上に 何か、あせりを感じる・・・

04) Long Ears
Begins with:

まあ、聞けよ! オレは仕事がら　手紙を配達しているから いろんな島に行くんだが・・・・ 最近、各地で娘が誘拐されるって話を 聞いたことはないか? 何でも、誘拐されているのは お前さんみたいに耳の長い娘だって話だ それに確か、さらわれたあの子も 耳が長かったよな・・・? だからさ、あの鳥は　お前さんと間違えて あの子を　さらったんだよ!

05) Ganondorf

Begins with:
ヤツの名は ガノンドロフ

06) The Great Deku Tree
Begins with:

オマエノ　ソノカッコウ モシヤ　デンセツノ　トキノユウシャカ? コクオウハ　ツイニ　トキノユウシャヲ ミツケタノカ?

07) Korogs
Begins with:

コログたちは、ああやって 年に一度の儀式の後 各地に飛んでいって、実を植え 森を育てているのじゃ

08) Jaboo
Begins with:

ヒサシブリダナ　ハイラルオウヨ

08-01) Godon
Begins with:

よくぞ　ここまでたどり着いた

09) Ganondorf of Demon Beast Island
Begins with:

我が名は　ガノンドロフ この魔獣島の主だ

10) Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule
Begins with:

アンタかい? 私の石で勝手に話をしていたのは!

11) Earth Temple and Wind Temple
Begins with:

[player_name]、よく聞くのだ

12) Triforce of Courage
Begins with:

[player_name] お前は、時の勇者の伝説を知っているか?

13) The Sage Ralt
Begins with:

マスターソードに選ばれし勇者よ

13-01) The Sage Fod
Begins with:

オマエが　あたらしい勇者か?

14) Medori's Instrument
Begins with:

ワタシにとって、この楽器は 運命の楽器なんです

15) Hero of Wind
Begins with:

よし、[player_name] 集めたトライフォースを神にお見せするのだ

16) Ganon Castle

ガノン城は　昔・・・ 勇猛果敢な　ハイラルの騎士団でさえ 落とせなかった　難攻不落の城だ ガノンの幻影に惑わされぬよう 感覚を研ぎ澄ますのだ

17) Before Puppet Ganon Battle
Begins with:

寝入ったか

18) Before Ganondorf Battle and Parting with King Hyrule
Begins with:

ワシの国は　砂漠の中にあった

Edited by Prime Blue, 12 July 2008 - 06:36 AM.

[N Guy]

I have a request: I'd like the JP translation of the ship intro of Phantom Hourglass (Tetra's conversation with her pirate crew before being abducted by the Phantom Ship), as there seems to be some confusion regarding the 'Ocean King's waters'. One direct JP translation I've found, for example, has one of Tetra's pirates stating "From what we heard from the last ship, this is the "Ocean Kings, Great Phantom Ocean"", though I'm not sure how reliable that is.

[Raien]

Finally I have access to a computer. If you don't mind, HoL, I'm going to respond to CID Farwin first (simply because refuting his points is more straightforward) and then to your points further down this post.

Many things make much more sense if the Triforce itself is eradicated from the game, yet it's there. The appearance of the Triforce could be only a symbol of Hyrule, but that only really works if there isn't an actual Triforce which has been the object of people's greed. It makes more sense, yes, but not in context of the rest of the game (and by extension, the rest of the series.)

In the two cases in which the Triforce was acquired by the forces of evil (namely Ganondorf), it was used to wish for the domination of Hyrule and the outside world. So the Triforce has never been the object of people's greed, but the domination of Hyrule (and the world) that the Triforce makes possible. The Triforce is basically means to an end. Power is the means to domination, which is the end. Thus the Triforce is the power needed to conquer Hyrule (and the world).

But in the situation where the forces of evil have an alternate source of power that allows them to conquer Hyrule (like the Trident in FSA), then the focus of evil is set immediately to the conquest of Hyrule (as Ganon did in FSA). So if Ganon does not need the Triforce when he has the Trident, why should the Dark Tribe need the Triforce when they have the Fused Shadows?

2. The term 'sacred realm' seeming to occasionally refer to Hyrule (through further review,) changes things in the relation of the Triforce, Hyrule, and (for newfound lack of a better term) the Golden Land. The picture painted by previous games is that if someone is after the sacred realm, they're really after the Triforce. If 'sacred realm' refers to Hyrule, then it follows suit that if someone is after Hyrule, they're after the Triforce. Now, to me, that hurts your argument.

The second time the word "holy land" is used in Lanayru's speech (according to Jumbie's translation), Lanayru says that she is referring to Hyrule by that name. So ask yourself this; why does Lanayru specifically say that the "holy land" is Hyrule, if she was referring to the Sacred Realm? What purpose does that distinction serve, especially given that it completely contradicts what has been established in previous Zelda games? I have an answer; it tells the player that the word "holy land" is not referring to the Sacred Realm in this context, it is referring to Hyrule.

For example, your username is CID Farwin, but suppose you change that name to Raian for some reason. You need to distinguish your online identity from mine, which means you must actively tell people who you are (i.e. "I am Raian, once CID Farwin."). That's what Lanayru does with the term "holy land"; by telling us that it is Hyrule, she also tells us that it is not the Sacred Realm.

4. What you're saying only really makes sense if there's an invasion of Hyrule. If you're hanging to symbolism, then Hyrule--symbolized by the Triforce--was there and then these people came and conquered it--symbolized by the fused(crystallized? Hm, I guess that they kind of are) shadow. They came from outside and conquered, according to the symbolism. These people, however, aren't 'interlopers,' (Jumbie has shown us that no such reference exists,) so how are they conquering if they're already there?

I don't see the symbolism that suggests the Dark Tribe must have come from outside the kingdom. My impression was that the rivalry over Hyrule was begun by Hyrulians (i.e. a civil war) and that likewise the Dark Tribe were once a group of Hyrulians who happened to learn dark magic.

Well, I already admitted as much - the resting place of the Triforce is a good place to start one's dominion over the world. Still, that's quite different from Hyrule having some intrinsical symbolic value, isn't it?

Anything associated with the divine has symbolic value by definition. Hyrule is the chosen land of the gods, which alone gives it symbolic value. And that does not take into account that Hyrule also contains the magical essences of nature (as both the elemental stones and the guardian deities).

First we see an abridged version of OoT's creation story. Keeping this in mind, it does not make sense at all for the Triforce to represent Hyrule. Why? Because in accordance with OoT, and common sense really, the Triforce is not Hyrule; the green hill, which is created by the goddesses prior to the Triforce, is. The hill then becomes the resting place of the Triforce; i.e. the sacred place.

Do you remember when Farore was said to give life to the world in OoT's creation story? This was accompanied by the visual creation of forest spirits (in the forms of balls of light) in the Deku Forest, and thanks to the video you linked to, we can see those same forest spirits appear on the hill in Lanayru's cutscene as Farore passes over. That surely is meant to tell us that the hill is the world in which the land of Hyrule resides, because I am quite sure that Farore didn't bless the Sacred Realm with life.

Second, it is only when the Triforce appears that any sign of evil/corruption is shown in Hyrule... and why not? That's how the story's gone in every other game; Hyrule is at unrest and war because of the people's lust for the Triforce. This goes along with the people losing their faith and demanding more than the gods have given them.

The Triforce is the only magical power in Hyrule that can fulfill people's wishes for conquest and domination, so naturally it is the target of greedy people in most Zelda games. But what is really being fought for in the Zelda series is control of Hyrule, and the best proof of that is in the Four Swords trilogy. Taking FSA as an example, when Ganon first took the Trident, his targets were the Dark Mirror and Vaati, which he then set to work on spreading darkness as soon as they were released. With the power to cover Hyrule in Darkness (and thus conquer it), he did not need the Triforce to achieve that end and thus he did not seek the Triforce to achieve that end. So if Ganon can ignore the Triforce when has an alternate source of power, then why cannot the Dark Tribe do so when they have the Fused Shadows at their disposal?

Third, while your post might imply otherwise, the struggle is not over Hyrule; it is over the sacred place, which in all other instances (within this context ? see OoT) is defined as the resting place of the Triforce. Again, the use of the name 'sacred place' instead of Hyrule implies a relation to the Triforce.

The second time the word "holy land" is used in Lanayru's speech (according to Jumbie's translation), Lanayru says that she is referring to Hyrule by that name. So ask yourself this; why does Lanayru specifically say that the "holy land" is Hyrule, if she was referring to the Sacred Realm? What purpose does that distinction serve, especially given that it completely contradicts what has been established in previous Zelda games? I have an answer; the distinction tells the player that the word "holy land" is not referring to the Sacred Realm in that context; it is referring to Hyrule.

For example, your username is Hero of Legend, but suppose you change that name to Raian for some reason. You need to distinguish your online identity from mine, which means you must actively tell people who you are (i.e. "I am Raian, once Hero of Legend."). That's what Lanayru does with the term "holy land"; by telling us that it is Hyrule, she also tells us that it is not the Sacred Realm.

Now, the vision shows Link killing Illia and then running towards the Triforce, only to be destroyed by the magic users. At the same time, the Crystal Stone of Shadow is shown blocking the Triforce. You claim this shows the shadow clan's dominion over Hyrule; I say it shows their victory in the war over the Triforce. Neither is obviously wrong. In fact, both may be correct, in a way, since dominion over Hyrule is comes naturally with the Triforce; but the meaning of the hill and Triforce would have to be entirely different for your theory to work as it is.

The video shows the Dark Tribe standing at the very top of the hill, where the Triforce is. If the hill and Triforce represent the land of Hyrule, then it shows that the Dark Tribe have gained control of the land of Hyrule. If that is the Sacred Realm and Triforce, then it shows that the Dark Tribe have gained control of the Sacred Realm and Triforce, which you are trying to tell me they do not have. They would not be standing on the hill itself if they were not in control of the Sacred Realm.

Finally, the whole point of the story is to warn Link not to get corrupted by his lust for power. Again, this has obvious implications; because the imagery shows the conflict starting before the shadow clan arose (even if the text says the shadow clan started the war, it appears they were not the only ones going after the 'price') there has to be something the people lusted for; and past games tell us that something is the Triforce.

As I have pointed out before, the purpose of the Triforce is to grant people's desires, and thus it is only the means to an end. In all past Zelda games set in Hyrule, the ultimate desire of greedy people has been the domination of Hyrule (and the world), and the Triforce does not need to exist for that desire to exist.

Edited by Raian, 13 May 2008 - 02:09 PM.

[Jumbie]

I assembled a list of all the requested quotes from the Japanese version of The Wind Waker. The only thing missing is Hero of Legend's request of the Great Deku Tree's story of the Hero of Time. I wasn't able to find it in there as I have no clue about what he could actually say about him (the only thing I know is that he don't mentions the term "Hero of Time").

Many thanks for that!^^
True, but I'll locate that quote, too, somehow.
I've also put a few passages of my own interest on the to-do list, like Tetra about the Forsaken Fortress. Probably the best thing will be if I work through them in concordance to game progression.

I have a request: I'd like the JP translation of the ship intro of Phantom Hourglass (Tetra's conversation with her pirate crew before being abducted by the Phantom Ship), as there seems to be some confusion regarding the 'Ocean King's waters'. One direct JP translation I've found, for example, has one of Tetra's pirates stating "From what we heard from the last ship, this is the "Ocean Kings, Great Phantom Ocean"", though I'm not sure how reliable that is.

Here it is:

ここが　幽霊船のでるって　うわさの海域なんだろ？　それらしい船が見えないか　しっかり探すんだ！
So this is the area of ocean where the ghost ship is rumoured to appear, right? Stay on the lookout for a ship looking like it!
So this is where the Ghosｔ Ship is said to appear? Stay on the lookout for a creepy-looking ship!

やっぱり　やめましょうよ！
Don't do that after all!!
Are you sure this is a good idea?

ここってたくさん船が行方不明に　なってるんですよね？　絶対その幽霊船のしわざですよ～
Haven't a lot of ships gone missing here? That's totally got to be the work of that ghost ship~!
What about all those ships that have gone missing? I say the Ghost Ship is behind all of it!

そうだよ　ニコ！　このあたりを通る船は　みーんなこわーい幽霊船に　連れて行かれちゃうんだ～
That's right, Niko! Aaaaall the ships cruising around here are taken away by the scaaaaary ghost ship, what a piiiiity.
That's right, Niko. Every ship disappears. And it's all because of that scaaaaaaary Ghost Ship!

ひ～っ　おいら　幽霊は苦手だよ～
Eeek, I don't like ghosts...!
G-ghosts...?!

でも　アネキー
But big sister!
Hey, Tetra!

前の港で聞いた話じゃぁ　ここは海王って大精霊が　治めてる海だって　言うじゃないですか？
Didn't we in the recent harbour hear stories saying that here a great spirit called the Ocean King governs the sea?
They say these seas are protected, yeah? Something about a spirit called the Ocean King.

そんな精霊さまがいる海で　なんで　船が行方不明に　なっちまったりするんです？
Why should it be that ships went missing in a sea where a spirit like that lives?
Wouldn't a spirit like that protect the ships?

ホントに　幽霊船がいたりして...
Unless there really is a ghost ship...
Unless there really is an evil Ghost Ship...

だらしないこと　言うんじゃないよ！
Don't be ridiculous, okay?!
Don't be ridiculous.

だいたい幽霊船なんて　いやしないんだ
I generally disapprove of stuff like ghost ships.
There's no such thing as a Ghost Ship!

どうせ　どっかのあくどい海賊が　悪さをしてるに決まってるよ！
At any rate it's some vicious pirates from somewhere that decided to play a trick!!
I bet it's just some pirates up to no good.

アタシが　正体あばいて
I'll expose their true faces.
I'll expose them as a bunch of frauds.

海賊にもルールってもんが　あるのを　教えてやるよ！
And teach them that there are rules to being pirates!!
And remind them that there are rules to being pirates!

それに　その海王って大精霊も　本当にいるか　あやしいもんだよ
Besides, it's questionable that that great spirit called Ocean King really exists in the first place!
I doubt there really is an Ocean King anyway.

As for the translation you found, it apparently mixed up the Kanji for "ship" (船) and "harbour" (港), as well as the Kanji for "spirit" (精霊) and "phantom" (幻影)...

I find it quite interesting that the crew had actually just disembarked on an island where people were talking about the ghost ship.

Edited by Jumbie, 13 May 2008 - 08:13 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Here it is:

So, when Gonzo (I think?) calls Tetra "big sister" it's another expression than that which Aryll uses when referring to Link, right? It just stood out to me as a weird expression...

Also; "I generally disapprove of stuff like ghost ships." is such an awesome phrase.

Do you remember when Farore was said to give life to the world in OoT's creation story? This was accompanied by the visual creation of forest spirits (in the forms of balls of light) in the Deku Forest, and thanks to the video you linked to, we can see those same forest spirits appear on the hill in Lanayru's cutscene as Farore passes over. That surely is meant to tell us that the hill is the world in which the land of Hyrule resides, because I am quite sure that Farore didn't bless the Sacred Realm with life.

...

The second time the word "holy land" is used in Lanayru's speech (according to Jumbie's translation), Lanayru says that she is referring to Hyrule by that name. So ask yourself this; why does Lanayru specifically say that the "holy land" is Hyrule, if she was referring to the Sacred Realm? What purpose does that distinction serve, especially given that it completely contradicts what has been established in previous Zelda games? I have an answer; the distinction tells the player that the word "holy land" is not referring to the Sacred Realm in that context; it is referring to Hyrule.

Okay, this seems to be what you have trouble understanding. Yes, I said the 'world' was Hyrule. I also said Hyrule was the Sacred Realm. So does the game. And that's fine. See, all I need to do is to is to say that Lanayru probably named the Sacred Realm ?Hyrule? just so that we would know they are the same thing in that context, which was likely (obviously) the intention.

And no, I have already explained to you why TP's merging of the terms does not 'completely contradicts what has been established in previous Zelda games.' The fact that you doubted that Farore brought life to the Sacred Realm shows your ignorance over the fact that the Sacred Realm and Hyrule are, ever since ALttP/OoT, one in the same. The "Sacred Realm" part of Hyrule is (or was), so far as I understand it, no different from any other magical place like, say, the Lost Woods.

So if Ganon can ignore the Triforce when has an alternate source of power, then why cannot the Dark Tribe do so when they have the Fused Shadows at their disposal?

You know why Ganon doesn't go after the Triforce, right? It's because it would be boring if he did that in every game. But obviously there is an in game reason for this, possibly that he didn't know about its existence, or possibly, like you said, he didn't need it (to do whatever he wishes to do, which does not include ruling Hyrule, to our knowledge). Obviously the Triforce is a powerful artifact of great value, but not everyone needs to desire it in every game.

Does this have any effect on the shadow clan in TP? No. Of course they didn?t need to desire the Triforce, but since it?s right there in the game, I say it?s pretty obvious that they do. It's like in OoT - Ganondorf was already King, what'd he need the Triforce for? He even overthrew the King of Hyrule (and became the Demon King himself) to get it... That's no different, really.

The video shows the Dark Tribe standing at the very top of the hill, where the Triforce is. If the hill and Triforce represent the land of Hyrule, then it shows that the Dark Tribe have gained control of the land of Hyrule. If that is the Sacred Realm and Triforce, then it shows that the Dark Tribe have gained control of the Sacred Realm and Triforce, which you are trying to tell me they do not have. They would not be standing on the hill itself if they were not in control of the Sacred Realm.

I have already explained this to you. The thing is, the image doesn't necessarily mean what you say it does - your opinion and interpretation, in other words, is not ultimate fact. Once you've realized this, maybe we can get somewhere; if you find yourself unable to do so, don't bother replying (and spam up this thread more than necessary).

As I have pointed out before, the purpose of the Triforce is to grant people's desires, and thus it is only the means to an end. In all past Zelda games set in Hyrule, the ultimate desire of greedy people has been the domination of Hyrule (and the world), and the Triforce does not need to exist for that desire to exist.

I'll be honest. I don't know about you, but I desire power for the sake of power. So does Vaati. And while Ganon might desire the world, nothing has ever been said about Hyrule - and you need to stop pretending there has.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 14 May 2008 - 09:52 AM.

[Jumbie]

So, when Gonzo (I think?) calls Tetra "big sister" it's another expression than that which Aryll uses when referring to Link, right? It just stood out to me as a weird expression...

Yes. Aryll calls Link "nii-chan" (big brother). Tetra being addressed as "aneki" (big sister) is the counterpart of Mido addressing adult Link as "aniki" (big brother) in OoT. The latter expressions don't automatically imply blood relationship.

Also; "I generally disapprove of stuff like ghost ships." is such an awesome phrase.

Hehe, maybe it sounds odd. I tried to word in a way that one cannot tell whether she dislikes them or doesn't believe in them (it's not clear in Japanese). There was a real ghost ship in TWW, after all...

I have already explained this to you. The thing is, the image doesn't necessarily mean what you say it does - your opinion and interpretation, in other words, is not ultimate fact. Once you've realized this, maybe we can get somewhere; if you find yourself unable to do so, don't bother replying (and spam up this thread more than necessary).

That's right. At this point I ask for no further debating of the use of "sacred land". It's much too early to draw conclusions before we haven't checked the entirety of ALttP's manual and in-game for potential new insights. Lex already noticed something helpful, so I encourage you all to follow suit.

But before that, shouldn't I translate TWW? That's what's going to be posted and seen in this thread in the time to come.

[Raien]

That's right. At this point I ask for no further debating of the use of "sacred land". It's much too early to draw conclusions before we haven't checked the entirety of ALttP's manual and in-game for potential new insights. Lex already noticed something helpful, so I encourage you all to follow suit.

Why do you think that would change anything? If "sacred land" can be used to refer to both Hyrule and the Sacred Realm (whether in ALTTP or afterwards), then we have to rely on context to tell us which of the two places that "sacred land" refers to in any given example. Lanayru tells us quite openly that Hyrule is the sacred land she is referring to, so I don't understand how she can also be referring to the Sacred Realm without confusing the player. It would be misleading to say she is referring to Hyrule if she isn't.

Okay, this seems to be what you have trouble understanding. Yes, I said the 'world' was Hyrule. I also said Hyrule was the Sacred Realm. So does the game. And that's fine. See, all I need to do is to is to say that Lanayru probably named the Sacred Realm ?Hyrule? just so that we would know they are the same thing in that context, which was likely (obviously) the intention.

You cannot refer to Hyrule as the Sacred Realm and vice versa because they perform separate, important functions. The location of the Triforce is not the land of Hyrule, so the "holy land" where the Triforce can be found is not going to be describing Hyrule. Likewise, the Hyrulians do not live in the Sacred Realm where the Triforce lies, so when it is said "The Hyrulians live in the holy land", it is clear that the holy land is not being used to describe the Sacred Realm.

The distinction of function necessitates the distinction of namesake in order to avoid confusing the player. If I was to label Ocarina of Time as "ALTTP", you would get confused because you already understand "ALTTP" to mean A Link to the Past. In order for "ALTTP" to refer to both Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past, they would have to be the same game and thus possess the same functions in the timeline. But of course the games are different, thus the functions are different, thus they have two different titles.

And if two different things must be referred to by the same name, further distinction is required to make sense. For example, Resident Evil on PS1 has the same title as Resident Evil on Gamecube. So the further distinction would either be to add the console name to the title, like "Resident Evil (Gamecube)" or to dub a different name like "REmake". So when the word "holy land" is used to refer to both the Sacred Realm and Hyrule, Lanayru provides the further distinction when she says "the holy land, which is Hyrule."

You know why Ganon doesn't go after the Triforce, right? It's because it would be boring if he did that in every game. But obviously there is an in game reason for this, possibly that he didn't know about its existence, or possibly, like you said, he didn't need it (to do whatever he wishes to do, which does not include ruling Hyrule, to our knowledge). Obviously the Triforce is a powerful artifact of great value, but not everyone needs to desire it in every game.

Does this have any effect on the shadow clan in TP? No. Of course they didn?t need to desire the Triforce, but since it?s right there in the game, I say it?s pretty obvious that they do. It's like in OoT - Ganondorf was already King, what'd he need the Triforce for? He even overthrew the King of Hyrule (and became the Demon King himself) to get it... That's no different, really.

Ganondorf in OoT spent his seven years of rule searching for the Triforce pieces of Wisdom and Courage, or so says one of the main characters in OoT (I forget, probably Rauru). Because while Ganondorf only had a third of the Triforce, two other people lived who could contest his power with their own (and they did when they fought him at the end of the game).

But to be honest, the best way I can answer the rest of this is to answer your next point:

I'll be honest. I don't know about you, but I desire power for the sake of power. So does Vaati. And while Ganon might desire the world, nothing has ever been said about Hyrule - and you need to stop pretending there has.

Power is a tool to be used. The power of legs is to walk; there would be no point to acquiring legs if one did not intend to walk. The power of wings is to fly; there would be no point to acquiring wings if one did not intend to fly. The power of the Triforce is to grant a person's most deepest desires; there would be no point to acquiring the Triforce if one did not intend to have his/her desires granted. Thus, the motivation for acquiring power does not lie in the object of power itself, but in the purpose for using it. Ganon and Vaati only want power in order to cement the purpose for which they intend to use that power; conquest (or in FS, to kidnap maidens).

Let's forget for the moment our debate about whether Ganon desires Hyrule and/or the world in general. What really matters is that Ganon desires uncontested rulership of everything. Lands, oceans, people. That is what all evil kings in fantasy desire; Sauron in LotR, Voldemort in Harry Potter, etc. But if an evil king can achieve those ends with the power he already possesses, then the motivation to assert control is going to be higher than to acquire another source of power that isn't actually needed. There were numerous magics that both Sauron and Voldemort could have used for their own devices, but they weren't really interested in acquiring them because the powers they already possessed were enough to achieve their goals. As one good example, Voldemort only tried to take the Philosopher's Stone after he actually came to need that power in order to revive himself. At his full strength, Voldemort's efforts were concentrated on conquest and not on acquiring more magic.

Likewise to Sauron and Voldemort, the Dark Tribe's magic was so powerful that they were uncontested in the fight for control of Hyrule. The Triforce may have existed in legend, but the tribe did not need to search for it when their hearts were set on ruling the kingdom. Only if it was proven a threat would the Dark Tribe take notice, and given the Sacred Realm has never been known to exist save in legend, its' importance to the war is entirely speculative.

Edited by Raian, 14 May 2008 - 05:28 PM.

[Jumbie]

That's right. At this point I ask for no further debating of the use of "sacred land". It's much too early to draw conclusions before we haven't checked the entirety of ALttP's manual and in-game for potential new insights. Lex already noticed something helpful, so I encourage you all to follow suit.

Why do you think that would change anything? If "sacred land" can be used to refer to both Hyrule and the Sacred Realm (whether in ALTTP or afterwards), then we have to rely on context to tell us which of the two places that "sacred land" refers to in any given example. Lanayru tells us quite openly that Hyrule is the sacred land she is referring to, so I don't understand how she can also be referring to the Sacred Realm without confusing the player. It would be misleading to say she is referring to Hyrule if she isn't.

Because I think that "sacred place" in TP refers to the Sacred Realm being a part of Hyrule. And this notion - although already stated in ALttP's manual and OoT - seems to conflict with what the game ALttP tells us about the Sacred Realm, so that's what he need to get a new understanding of.

You cannot refer to Hyrule as the Sacred Realm and vice versa because they perform separate, important functions. The location of the Triforce is not the land of Hyrule, so the "holy land" where the Triforce can be found is not going to be describing Hyrule.

Oh yes it is! OoT, ALttP and TP all agree about this. That's my whole point, actually v_v

[Raien]

Jumbie, so what you're saying is is that because Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are both referred to as holy lands (which they are; Hyrule is holy because it is blessed by the gods, and the Sacred Realm is holy because it is the resting place of the power of the gods which governs the world), that they must therefore be the same holy land? By that logic, all Links are the same person. It doesn't matter that there is context which says they cannot be the same (in this case, the gap of centuries between most games), they have to be the same person because they have the same name.

In ALTTP, the "holy land" is specifically referring to the place where the Triforce lies. The "holy land" was transformed into the Dark World by Ganon. Since Hyrule is not the land where the Triforce lies or the land that became the Dark World, it is by distinction not the "holy land". This is how the "holy land" is separated from Hyrule by context in ALTTP, and it applies to OoT as well. Thus, the distinction of Hyrule and the Sacred Realm has been a centrepiece to the stories of ALTTP and OoT.

If Lanayru was describing the exact same "holy land" as ALTTP, then the name "holy land" alone would be automatically assumed by the player to be the same land that was separated from Hyrule by context in ALTTP and OoT. And yet this is completely contradicted when Lanayru said the holy land is Hyrule, which defeats the established context of the previous two games. How can Hyrule be the "holy land" if it was previously distinguished from the holy land as part of the storyline?

So either we take the view that Hyrule is a different "holy land" to the Sacred Realm, or we take the view that Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are the same place. The problem with your view is that it becomes impossible to understand the relationship between Hyrule and the Sacred Realm because all references to the Sacred Realm also refer to Hyrule. If we then apply this to previous games, it becomes more difficult to distinguish the two lands that were so easily distinguished in ALTTP and OoT. What you ultimately have is a misleading terminology, and I seriously don't think that was ever intended by the developers.

For example, if I was to say "I went to the holy land yesterday.", which holy land am I talking about? Without a further distinction, you can't tell whether I went to Hyrule or into the Sacred Realm. And the player would have this problem with Lanayru's story, because according to you, "holy land" refers to both Hyrule and the Sacred Realm. That's just ridiculous.

Edited by Raian, 15 May 2008 - 10:49 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

Power is a tool to be used.

And to be desired. I hope you don't deny this, or else your understanding of human psychology is even less than I thought.

Jumbie, so what you're saying is is that because Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are both referred to as holy lands (which they are; Hyrule is holy because it is blessed by the gods, and the Sacred Realm is holy because it is the resting place of the power of the gods), that they must therefore be the same holy land?

No. He's saying that because every game, including ALttP, says that the Triforce is in Hyrule, and the resting place of the Triforce is the sacred land, Hyrule therefore is the sacred land.

Obviously there is something here that your mind just doesn?t seem to be able to grasp, but that is what he is saying.

The context that separates Hyrule from the Sacred Realm has been centrepiece to the stories of every game in which the Sacred Realm has appeared.

Not really, no. Of course, ALttP also says the sacred land is another world, but if that is the case, it?s a contradiction in the game, and not some misinterpretation on our part. Besides, both ALttP and OoT says the sacred land is shaped by the heart of whoever enters it, so it?s likely the ?other world? is in fact created by the Triforce or something.

So either we take the view that Hyrule is a different "holy land" to the Sacred Realm, or we take the view that Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are the same place.

I don't think anyone is arguing Hyrule and the ?sacred land? are literally the same place. The sacred land, if it is indeed a land, is obviously part of Hyrule, but the name could also be applied to Hyrule in its entirety while retaining the same connotation, specifically; 'the resting place of the Triforce.'

Thus, the point I have been trying to make is that Lanayru's story is not in contradiction with previous games, but you seem intent on misinterpreting me and distort the debate with your Ganon?s desire BS and such.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 15 May 2008 - 10:54 AM.

[Raien]

And to be desired. I hope you don't deny this, or else your understanding of human psychology is even less than I thought.

Why is the power desired? As a collectible? To protect from other people? Or is to be used (which returns to the point I was initially making)?

I don't think anyone is arguing Hyrule and the ‘sacred land’ are literally the same place. The sacred land, if it is indeed a land, is obviously part of Hyrule, but the name could also be applied to Hyrule in its entirety while retaining the same connotation, specifically; 'the resting place of the Triforce.'

Thus, the point I have been trying to make is that Lanayru's story is not in contradiction with previous games, but you seem intent on misinterpreting me and distort the debate with your Ganon’s desire BS and such.

The problem comes when the story actually involves the Sacred Realm. In TWW's introduction, for example, it is said that the Triforce is hidden within Hyrule. If the Sacred Realm is basically a "lost land" that can only be found in Hyrule, then that context makes sense when simplified. But when the story actually involves passage between Hyrule and the Sacred Realm, a distinction between the two lands needs to exist for any sense to be made of it. To say "within the holy land, there is a holy land" obviously doesn't make sense.

This is all about context. The context that IW's manual uses distinguishes Hyrule from the "holy land", and yet Lanayru's speech does not make that distinction. The only plausible reason for this is that, like TWW's introduction, the Sacred Realm does not play a part in the events described by Lanayru. Otherwise, you have one word with two meanings and no further distinction to explain what's happening.

PS: How is Ganon's desire BS when it drives the plotline of every game in which he appears? You think Ganon's invading Hyrule in ALTTP because he wants the Triforce? Yeah, that makes sense... [/sarcasm]

Edited by Raian, 15 May 2008 - 11:20 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

Why is the power desired? As a collectible? To protect from other people? Or is to be used (which returns to the point I was initially making)?

Again, read some psychology before you make a fool out of yourself. Humans often desire power not because they wish to use it, but because it 'feels good' to have power.

But this argument is entirely irrelevant; don't reply unless you have some research that would prove your claims.

Where does it say the Triforce is in Hyrule?

I'll leave the details to Jumbe when he gets around to it, but it's stated in pretty much every game. For instance:

"The three goddesses hid the Triforce containing the power of the gods somewhere in Hyrule." - Zelda, OoT

And yes, I've already quoted that passage, but apparently you're blind to anything that doesn't agree with your theory.

And yet it has been depicted as completely white in OoT (and referred to as under twilight in ALTTP's manual), so obviously the Sacred Realm has a basic form without a human to shape it.

Well, for one we?ve never seen the sacred realm in its ?basic form?, because even in OoT it was ?tainted? by the ancient Sages. But since it?s supposed to be part of Hyrule, it?s not too surprising it would have some corporeal qualities. That doesn?t change my point, however; the sacred realm doesn?t need to be a separate world in order for the Triforce to create a world out of it. Therefore, we don?t need to assume the sacred realm is separate from Hyrule, which we know it isn?t anyway.

The problem comes when the story actually involves the Sacred Realm. In TWW's introduction, for example, it is said that the Triforce is hidden within Hyrule. If the Sacred Realm is basically a "lost land" that can only be found in Hyrule, then that context makes sense when simplified. But when the story actually involves passage between Hyrule and the Sacred Realm, a distinction between the two lands needs to exist for any sense to be made of it. To say "within the holy land, there is a holy land" obviously doesn't make sense.

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what it does. I can't believe you're this narrowminded.

PS: How is Ganon's desire BS when it drives the plotline of every game in which he appears? You think Ganon's invading Hyrule in ALTTP because he wants the Triforce? Yeah, that makes sense... [/sarcasm]

Is he? IS HE? Give me a break; the guy is trying to flee to some faraway place to escape from Link. He doesn't give shit about Hyrule.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 15 May 2008 - 11:26 AM.

[Raien]

Again, read some psychology before you make a fool out of yourself. Humans often desire power not because they wish to use it, but because it 'feels good' to have power.

I was going to write another proper reply, but then you said this:

Is he? IS HE? Give me a break; the guy is trying to flee to some faraway place to escape from Link. He doesn't give shit about Hyrule.

This just made me laugh and quite frankly I don't need to justify my point anymore now you said this. You can believe what you want about psychology, the wish has importance that only you refuse to acknowledge (especially a wish that says "Give Hyrule to ME!"). I could also quote the maiden that says Ganon wants to conquer the Dark and Light worlds, but I can't be bothered.

Uh, yeah, that's exactly what it does. OoT does it. I can't believe you're this narrowminded.

OoT says "within the holy land, there is a holy land"? No, it says "within Hyrule, there is a holy land", which allows the distinction to be made between Hyrule and the Sacred Realm.

Edited by Raian, 15 May 2008 - 11:58 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

This just made me laugh and quite frankly I don't need to justify my point anymore now you said this. You can believe what you want about psychology, the wish has importance that only you refuse to acknowledge (especially a wish that says "Give Hyrule to ME!"). I could also quote the maiden that says Ganon wants to conquer the Dark and Light worlds, but I can't be bothered.

Did ALttP Ganon say that? Is Hyrule the "Dark and Light Worlds"? Doesn't Zelda say he's trying to escape? Haven't we already been over this? And what, pray tell, does any of this have to do with what might and might not be the case with human psychology?

You just don't know what you're talking about jhurvid, and this looks like a lame attempt to avoid you having to admit that.

OoT says "within the holy land, there is a holy land"? No, it says "within Hyrule, there is a holy land", which allows the distinction to be made between Hyrule and the Sacred Realm.

But since TP says Hyrule is the Sacred Land, that's now a pointless distintion.

*Final post on the subject*

Edited by Hero of Legend, 15 May 2008 - 12:22 PM.

[Raien]

You just don't know what you're talking about jhurvid, and this looks like a lame attempt to avoid you having to admit that.

Ditto. Going to such lengths trying to avoid having to admit that the Dark Tribe could have more concern for Hyrule than the Triforce looks ridiculous to me. And the funny thing is that for all you boast about knowing psychology, I haven't seen a hair of evidence for it in this topic. It's one thing to claim you've read psychology, it's another to actually demonstrate that knowledge in your arguments.

It's true that I haven't read much psychological theory myself; most of my understanding has been devised through my own observations (which funnily enough is how all theorists reach their conclusions). When I see active justifications for my understanding (which preferably hold up in general debate), I am naturally going to assume that my understanding is correct. Taking this debate as an example, I look at a quotation like this:

The Triforce is the "Golden Power" the gods gave that grants the wish in the heart of the one who touches it. If a righteous-hearted person touches it, a righteous wish... If an evil person touches it, an evil wish... The stronger that person's wish is, the more the Triforce will demonstrate that power. Ganon's wish was to claim the world. That evil wish changed the sacred land into the World of Darkness. Once he had stored up power there, Ganon intended come out into the World of Light in order to fulfill his wish. However, now that Ganon, who touched the Triforce, has fallen, the World of Darkness shall disappear as well.

The Triforce is waiting for a new owner. The "Golden Power" is in your hands. Now, please try touching it, with a wish in your heart.

And I see no justification for Ganondorf wanting the Triforce just to possess its power, as you say it does. All the emphasis I can see is placed on the wish that the Triforce grants, and thus to me it is explained how that wish led to the Imprisoning War and the reason for the construction of the portal after Agahnim broke the Sages' Seal. But this means nothing according to you because you know psychology (which is by no means a disproof of the actual point). In that case, let's see some psychological theory then! Explain to me why I'm wrong using psychological theory if you know so much about it (might be worth making a new topic to discuss it, though).

But since TP says Hyrule is the Sacred Land, that's now a pointless distinction.

But Lanayru's speech is needlessly confusing without it. To call two different things by the same name without further distinction does not allow the reader to distinguish the two lands and thus understand the roles they both play in the story, and most writers are good enough to know when what they say is misleading. The only way you can eliminate the context of the Sacred Realm is to remove the Sacred Realm from the story altogether.

Edited by Raian, 15 May 2008 - 03:06 PM.

[Jumbie]

Jumbie, so what you're saying is is that because Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are both referred to as holy lands (which they are; Hyrule is holy because it is blessed by the gods, and the Sacred Realm is holy because it is the resting place of the power of the gods which governs the world), that they must therefore be the same holy land? By that logic, all Links are the same person.

All those comparisons are unneeded. Fact is, the Sacred Realm is a part of Hyrule (even in ALttP), so nothing prevents Lanayru from using a pars pro toto. Period.

For example, if I was to say "I went to the holy land yesterday.", which holy land am I talking about? Without a further distinction, you can't tell whether I went to Hyrule or into the Sacred Realm. And the player would have this problem with Lanayru's story, because according to you, "holy land" refers to both Hyrule and the Sacred Realm. That's just ridiculous.

That's why you would say Hyrule when you went to Hyrule, and Sacred Realm when you went to the Sacred Realm. But since Lanayru equates the two, he wants to refer to both at the same time because one is part of the other.

But Lanayru's speech is needlessly confusing without it. To call two different things by the same name without further distinction does not allow the reader to distinguish the two lands and thus understand the roles they both play in the story, and most writers are good enough to know when what they say is misleading.

It does no harm to the casual player of TP because the Triforce is not mentioned by name.

And now, don't reply, or open a new thread if you must.

[Raien]

All those comparisons are unneeded. Fact is, the Sacred Realm is a part of Hyrule (even in ALttP), so nothing prevents Lanayru from using a pars pro toto. Period.

The Sacred Realm is part of Hyrule, but that doesn't absolve the need to distinguish it from Hyrule when it plays an important part of the story. If I ask for directions to someone's house, being told the name of the city wouldn't help me at all.

That's why you would say Hyrule when you went to Hyrule, and Sacred Realm when you went to the Sacred Realm. But since Lanayru equates the two, he wants to refer to both at the same time because one is part of the other.

But why would Lanayru equate the two if the fighting was over the Sacred Realm specifically? The Sacred Realm is part of Hyrule, yes, but that's irrelevant to the story Lanayru is trying to tell (according to you). Saying Hyrule is the holy land pointlessly complicates what should be a simple explanation of events.

In a nutshell, there are contexts where the Sacred Realm can be integrated into Hyrule and contexts where it has to be distinguished from Hyrule in order to understand what's going on. Lanayru's speech is an example of context where the Sacred Realm has to be distinguished (and it would have been had Lanayru not said the holy land was Hyrule). After all, it is only because the Sacred Realm was distinguished from Hyrule in ALTTP's manual that you argue the same events must have taken place in Lanayru's speech. Lanayru never said the Hyrulians were fighting for a hidden Sacred Realm.

And now, don't reply, or open a new thread if you must.

Excuse me just this once because I am now typing with my Wii. I'll make a new topic if this debate continues tomorrow.

Edited by Raian, 15 May 2008 - 07:34 PM.