1600 replies to this topic

[Raien]

Actually, my comment was not made in reference to the Twilight Mirror, but in reference to your spiel that the Dark Tribe is what makes the Mirror dark. (Do you stand by that anymore, even?)

Assuming that the Dark Mirror is not the Twilight Mirror, I believe that the Dark Tribe makes the Mirror Dark. Why? Because the Dark Tribe's sealing is used to establish the identity of the Dark Mirror. First, we are told the Dark Tribe was sealed within the Mirror, and then we are told the Dark Mirror was sealed within the Forest of Light to smother its magic. The order in which the events are presented connotes cause and effect. If the Dark Mirror was always evil, and thus always sealed within the Forest of Light, we would hear that part of the story before the sealing of the Dark Tribe.

[Duke Serkol]

Well this is not something Jumbie did, but I figure it may fit the topic well enough...

The first 20 (all of the first video uploaded on nico video) minutes of AST's voice acting have been translated. It's up for everyone to see here!

Edited by Duke Serkol, 19 April 2008 - 08:58 AM.

[FDL]

That's pretty interesting, DS. Aginah being Sarasalah's brother is a bit of a shock to me.

Anyway, I have a request of Jumbie or anyone who can translate a certain scene in OoT. I'd like to see your translation of the JP version of the scene in which Link meets Kaepora Gaebora for the final time. It happens right before Nabooru is abducted, if that helps.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 20 April 2008 - 10:48 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

Well, looks like a grand total of one person had interest in this... >_>


Anyway, thanks for the feedback FDL... the notion was quite the shocker for me too (but even more so the evident fact that these dirty old men exchange their clothes!)

[Showsni]

Oh, I thought it was interesting. But I couldn't think of anything to say.

[Duke Serkol]

Something like "nice work"?

Thanks anyway

[Jumbie]

I too liked the AST translation, but you know that, just for the record^^

Fierce Deity Link, here is your request:

どうした、リンク？　久しぶりで　おどろいたか？
What's up, Link? Surprised, after all that time?
Hey, what's up, Link? Surprised to see me?

おまえには　長い日々が、この世界では　無かったも同然。まことに　不思議なことじゃて。
A long time in this world is to you as if it didn't pass. Truly a mysterious thing!
A long time in this world is almost nothing to you, is it? How mysterious!

ふたつの時代を　行き来する少年のことを、この私ですら　伝説だとばかり　思っとったよ。
Even I thought that thing about a boy who plies between two epochs was merely a legend!
Even I thought that the tales of a boy who could travel back and forth through time was merely a legend.

リンクよ、おまえは　すっかり　勇者の風格を　身につけた。
O Link, you have completely assumed the attitude of a hero.
Link, you have fully matured as an adult.

この先　おまえの勇気に　ハイラルのすべての民の未来が　かかっておる。
From now on, the future of all the people in Hyrule depends on your courage.
From now on, the future of all the people in Hyrule is on your shoulders.

もう　ワシの出る幕では　ないのぉ。では　最後のアドバイスじゃ。
I should keep out of your affairs by now. So, my last advice.
Maybe it's not my time anymore. Here is my last advice.

この神殿に　巣くう二人の魔女、やつらを　倒すには　その魔力を　逆に利用することじゃ。　ホホッ！
Two witches haunt this temple. In order to destroy them, utilize their magic conversely. Hoo hoot!
Two witches inhabit this temple. In order to destroy them, turn their own magic against them. Hoo hoot!

ワシは　お前を　見守ってゆく。これまでも?これからもな?　ホホ～ッ！
I watch over you. Up to this point? and from here on still? Hoo hoot!
I will continue to watch you? Hoo hoo hoo hoot!

Coincidentally, LionHarted recently made a thread about this topic, but I was gonna post this anyway. Sheik at their first meeting, telling the Legend of the Temples:

待っていたよ、時の勇者?
I've been waiting for you, Hero of Time?
I've been waiting for you, Hero of Time?

世界が　魔に支配されし時、聖地からの声に　目覚めし者たち　五つの神殿にあり?
When the world is ruled by demons, those awakened by a voice from the Sacred Realm will dwell in five temples.
When evil rules all, an awakening voice from the Sacred Realm will call those destined to be Sages, who dwell in the five temples.

一つは　深き森　に?
One in the deep forest?
One in a deep forest?

一つは　高き山　に?
One on the high mountain?
One on a high mountain?

一つは　広き湖　に?
One in the vast lake?
One under a vast lake?

一つは　屍の館　に?
One in the mansion of corpses?
One within the house of the dead?

一つは　砂の女神　に?
One in the goddess of the sand?
One inside a goddess of the sand?

目覚めし者たち、時の勇者を得て、魔を封じ込め?　やがて　平和の光を　取り戻す。
The awakened ones, finding the Hero of Time, will imprison the demon? and eventually recover the light of peace.
Together with the Hero of Time, the awakened ones will bind the evil and return the light of peace to the world?

我ら、シーカー族に残る　神殿についての言い伝えだ。
This is the legend about the temples left behind by us, the Sheikah tribe.
This is the legend of the temples passed down by my people, the Sheikah.

ボクは　シーク。シーカー族の生き残り?
I am Sheik. Survivor of the Sheikah tribe?
I am Sheik. Survivor of the Sheikahs...

伝説の聖剣?　マスターソードを持つ者?　それが　時の勇者?
Wielder of the sacred blade of legend? the Master Sword? That is the Hero of Time?
As I see you standing there holding the mythical Master Sword, you really do look like the legendary Hero of Time?

キミが、言い伝えを信じるなら　五つの神殿を探し、五人の賢者を　目覚めさせるほかはない?
If you believe the legend, you have no choice but to look for the five temples and awaken the five Sages?
If you believe the legend, you have no choice. You must look for the five temples and awaken the five Sages?

今、森の神殿で　一人の賢者が　目覚めの時を　待っている。
Now, one Sage is waiting for the time of awakening in the Forest Temple.
One Sage is waiting for the time of awakening in the Forest Temple.

キミが　よく知っている少女だ?
It's a girl you know well?
The Sage is a girl I am sure you know?

しかし　神殿に巣くう魔物の力で　聖地からの声を　その少女に　伝えることは　不可能だ?
However, due to the powers of a monster that haunts the temple, it's impossible to communicate the voice from the Sacred Realm to that girl?
Because of the evil power in the temple, she cannot hear the awakening call from the Sacred Realm?

そして今のキミには　神殿に入ることさえ　できぬはず。
And as you currently are, you cannot even enter the temple?
Unfortunately, equipped as you currently are, you cannot even enter the temple?

ボクの言葉を信じるなら、まず　カカリコ村へ　行くがいい?　いいね　リンク?
But, if you trust my words, you should head to Kakariko Village first? Good, Link??
But, if you believe what I'm saying, you should head to Kakariko Village? Do you understand, Link?

[Impossible]

Well, looks like a grand total of one person had interest in this... >_>

I found it interesting, and I know DarkZero/DP did, too. There's just not much to say.

It looks like the main difference in Kaepora's dialogue is that he doesn't call Link an adult... Just in case that meant anything to anyone before.

[Jumbie]

I forgot to add a little note about my last translation of the Legend of the Temples:

When Japanese says, the awakened Sages "finding the Hero of Time", that's quite the opposite to what actually happens, namely Link finding the Sages, and yet this line is consistent with ALttP's Japanese manual which says, "Initially, the Sages searched for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to handle it."

Edited by Jumbie, 25 April 2008 - 12:31 PM.

[LionHarted]

Well, aside from Saria, it's really a matter of Link and each individual sage finding each other.

[FDL]

Sorry I didn't post sooner but thanks [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] Jumbie. Even though the one I requested was minimally different, it's still interesting to see.

[Prime Blue]

Okay, here's the first of the bunch - the "Hero Legend" (「勇者伝説」).

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I'm beginning to think it might be a good idea to provide Iron Knuckle with the stuff he needs to do a text dump of the Japanese version.
Since all of the text in Twilight Princess was stored in the "bmgres*.arc" files of the "res/Msg" folder (at least for the European version)...and Baton of Wind has the same folder (albeit more files, and differently named - among them also one "bmgres.arc"), I uploaded the folder in question.
If something else is needed, I'll gladly provide it.

Edited by Prime Blue, 28 April 2008 - 11:54 AM.

[Impossible]

I think maybe you should just link to the pictures in the future, so that we don't end up having to load and scroll through dozens of images on each page.

I'm not sure what we can get out of the intro that's not in the Hylian text, but I guess it might be interesting.

[LionHarted]

When we get to it, I'd like to see these quotes from TWW examined:

"So long as Ganondorf was not revived,
Hyrule would remain below, never waking
from its slumber."

"Ganon will be searching frantically for this
child in an attempt to get the power of the
gods that she possesses. He will not rest
until he has found her.

If he succeeds, my ancient kingdom under
the sea will be turned into a land of
shadow and despair...and so will the world
you know above the waves."

(both from the scene in which Tetra is revealed to be Zelda)

Both of them seem to lean towards my interpretation of the ending.

The first, because it implies that when Ganon is vanquished, Hyrule will be restored.

The second, because it emphasizes the context that the "ancient kingdom" is specifically being safeguarded -- and that Ganon even wants to transform the "world above the waves."

But I'd like to see what they say in the literal.

[Jumbie]

I figured it was about time for a new translation. This part from TP had me interested personally, the first meeting of Midna, Zant and Link:

ザ・・・ザント！
Z…Zant!
Zant!

こんな古びた魔力ごときで　我に刃向かうとは・・・
Why would you oppose me with such antiquated magic…
Did you honestly mean to take an ancient and withered power like this and turn it against me?

愚かなる　影の反逆者　ミドナよ
Midna, you foolish traitor of the shadows!
You are a foolish traitor, Midna.

なぜ王に逆らう
Why do you defy the king?
Why do you defy your king?

一族の魔力を利用しているだけのオマエが　我々の王だと？　笑わせるな！
Our king, you who do nothing but exploit the clan's magic? You must be joking!
My KING? You, who do nothing but abuse the magic of your tribe? You must be joking!

我が力が、そのような古びた魔力だというのか？　面白い！
Are you implying that my power is some such antiquated magic? How amusing!
How dare you?! Are you implying that my power is…our old magic? Now THAT is a joke!

これが、我が神より授かりし力　影を支配する王の魔力よ！
This is a power my god blessed me with, the magic of the king who rules the shadows!
This power is granted to me by my god! It is the magic of the King of Twilight, and you WILL respect it!

ミドナよ・・・忘れたのか？　その獣は、我々を虐げた光の世界の者
Oh Midna… Did you forget? That beast is one of those from the light world who oppressed us.
My Midna… Did you forget? That beast is one of the light dwellers who oppressed our people.

いくら望んでも、今の世界では　お前は　決して交わることはできぬ影にすぎぬ
No matter how much you may desire otherwise, in the world as it is now, you will never be more than a shadow that cannot mingle.
No matter how much you may desire otherwise, you will never be more than a shadow in their world. You cannot consort with their kind!

しかし、この世界を手に入れることが　できれば、光と影はひとつになれるのだ
But if we can make this world ours, light and shadow will become one.
But if we can make their world ours, Midna...light and darkness will meet at last.

いまこそ、我ら一族が取り戻す時・・・影が光を凌駕する世界に！
Right now that our clan is restoring… in a world where shadow overwhelms light!
Our tribe will take back their realm…and sweet darkness will blot out this harsh light!

だから、ミドナよ　私は、お前が・・・　・・・欲しい
And that, Midna, is why… I need you.
And that, Midna, is why… I need you.

全ては一族のため・・・お前の力をかしておくれ・・・
All in favour of the clan… Lend me your power…
Not just for me, but for all of our people… Lend me your power.

いいだろう・・・戻してやろう　お前が望む光の世界に！
So be it… I will return you to the light world you covet!
So be it… I will return you to the light world you covet!

Notes:
- "Traitor of the shadows" shows how shadows can be used as a collective term for the Clan of Shadow. That metaphoric sense is important for further down.
- Zant doesn't address her with "my" Midna.
- While he still does say Midna cannot mingle in the Light World due to being a shadow, this may be meant in said metaphoric sense, because the word for mingle refers to social interaction, which she as one of the hated Shadow people will never be able to. Just my interpretation, but a valid one.
- Zant means their clan is restoring respect for them. The sentence "in a world where shadow overwhelms light" is an extension of the previous line, "light and shadow will become one".

Edited by Jumbie, 04 May 2008 - 09:45 PM.

[Jumbie]

Lol Ima double post cause no one reply!!1

Eh.. Alright now, this is important.

Five months ago when I posted my first translation, my knowledge of Japanese was still at its very beginning, and on top of that, I was dealing with a text that even NoA apparently had great problems making sense of: Lanayru's vision in TP. Even after posting it here, its Japanese lines never ceased to puzzle me, partly because I had been afraid to stray too far from what NoA proposed for it, and partly because there's some complicated wording in the text that just required me to gain more experience.

Anyway, now that I'm finally able to make sense of it, I have editted the initial post in this thread. Make sure you check it out, the changes need to become standard knowledge of any theorist.

The second thing is, I've finished a passage from TP which is said by an easy-to-miss NPC in Castle Town road, even though it's actually highly relevant to the plot. It gets particularly interesting once compared with my re-translation of Lanayru's sequence - which I plan to do in a new thread.

おや、見たところ腕に自信がありそうだが　アンタ最近この辺りで起こっておる事件を　知らんのかね？
Oh, it looks like you can handle yourself pretty well, but do you know about the events that have occurred around here recently?
Now, you seem like you can handle yourself pretty well, but do you know what's been going on around here lately?

何でも・・・昔、この地を追いやられた者達の怨念が、不可解な事件を起こしている　という噂じゃ・・・
I've heard… rumours that the inexplicable events are being caused by the grudge of those who were driven from this place long ago…
It's just that… There are rumors that recent dire events are being caused by a curse from the people who were driven from this land…

悪いことは言わん、兵士になりに来たのなら　やめといた方がええ・・・
Make no mistake, if you came here looking to become a soldier, you had better think that over…
You know, if you came here looking to become a soldier, but you've changed your mind now, I won't say a thing to anyone…

ハイラルは　昔から聖地と呼ばれ　今はハイラル王家のもと、信心深き人々に　守られておるが・・・
Hyrule has always been called the holy land, and even now it's protected by the royal family of Hyrule and by deeply faithful people, but…
Hyrule was always known as a sacred land in the past, and even now it's protected by the royal family and other spiritual figures…

昔は　この地を巡り争いが　絶えんかったそうじゃよ
In the past, there was an unceasing rivalry over this place, oh yes!
But there was a time when Hyrule was torn by conflicts that swept the land...

最近起こっておる不可解な事件は　その時争った者達の怨念が　起こしておる　という噂じゃ
Rumour has it that the recent inexplicable events are being caused by the grudge of those who competed back then.
And these recent disturbing events may be caused by the leftover anger and misery of the souls who departed in that conflict...

Notes:
- The word 聖地 ("sacred land" which here refers to Hyrule) is also used as the Japanese name of the Sacred Realm. But as NoA recognized too, that is clearly not what is intended here (neither was it in Lanayru's legend, although there, NoA did not realize that).
- Regardless though, I still maintain that this rivalry is the same war spoken of in OoT and ALttP. The fact remains unchanged that the Triforce is shown in the cutscene as the thing the magic users were after. Just that they coveted it to rule Hyrule.
Also, Lanayru explains that Hyrule is called the holy land because it was there that the Goddesses touched ground. And what did OoT say? The place where the Goddesses left the Triforce came to be known as the holy land. (That's my re-translation right here.)

Remember, no starting debates here, while I'll gladly respond to questions about what exactly was so tricky about those texts.

Edited by Jumbie, 05 May 2008 - 03:11 PM.

[Raien]

So according to your new translation, Jumbie, the war that Lanayru described has actually got nothing to do with the Sacred Realm? I find this confusing given Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are both referred to as the holy land.
And what of the Triforce appearing in the cutscene? It appears to be relevant, yet it would have no relevance according to your translation.

[LionHarted]

The Sacred Realm is referenced as being both "in Hyrule" and "connected to Hyrule."

The former is usually applied to the creation story and Triforce legends; the latter is told us in most other contexts.

So maybe it used to be part of Hyrule, but was sealed away?

Edited by LionHarted, 05 May 2008 - 03:35 PM.

[Raien]

Thanks for clarifying that, Jumbie (in your latest edit). So the war fought before OoT does not parallel the fighting spoken of in the IW.

As for what the Sacred Realm is, I think it's actually quite clear. It's the dimension that connects heaven to Hyrule, and it's not intrinsically separate from either heaven or Hyrule (to address a point made in Lex's last post).

Edited by Raian, 05 May 2008 - 04:07 PM.

[LionHarted]

So I suppose we should assume that the use of "Sacred Realm" in the Ganondorf story is also talking about Hyrule?

That actually makes more sense, because in OoT itself, he conquers the Sacred Realm (by transforming it into a world of evil) before conquering Hyrule.

EDIT: This would be easier if they just called the Sacred Realm the Golden Land. XD

Edited by LionHarted, 05 May 2008 - 08:19 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I personally see the Sacred Realm as being an alternate plane to Hyrule, being spatially and temporally the same, but another side to it. Similar to how ghosts are said to be on an ethereal/astral plane, but you can walk right up to one or see one and they spatially inhabit the material world alongside the living.

[Jumbie]

I find this confusing given Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are both referred to as the holy land.

Indeed, it's the most confusing thing in Zelda yet. This ambiguity really annoys me.

And what of the Triforce appearing in the cutscene? It appears to be relevant, yet it would have no relevance according to your translation.

Well, that has more to do with the fact that the word Triforce is taboo in TP than with the interpretation of the word 聖地 (seichi).

As for what the Sacred Realm is, I think it's actually quite clear. It's the dimension that connects heaven to Hyrule, and it's not intrinsically separate from either heaven or Hyrule (to address a point made in Lex's last post).

Nothing is clear anymore about the nature of the Sacred Realm. The Japanese name has turned out to be a generic word that can refer to any holy site. As such, it's no different from how "village" can denote completely different places.

From what OoT's and TP's creation myths tell us, we only gather that Hyrule is the place blessed by the Goddesses with the Triforce - the holy land/sacred realm - because it's there that the Goddesses completed their labours.

So the war fought before OoT does not parallel the fighting spoken of in the IW.

What makes you think that? I said there's still no reason to make two separate events of them.

So I suppose we should assume that the use of "Sacred Realm" in the Ganondorf story is also talking about Hyrule?

You might be right. It's possible that there's not a single instance in TP where "seichi" actually refers to the Sacred Realm as we think of it. I mean, that'd go in hand with the game never calling the Triforce by name.

"Seichi" appears nine times in TP. To demonstrate just how generic that word is, let me post a speech of Eldin:

我が名は　オルディン　ハイラルに集う光の精霊の一人であり
My name is Oldin. I am one of the spirits of light gathering in Hyrule.
My name is Eldin. I am one of the light spirits of Hyrule.

この地を守りし者なり
I am the one that guards these lands.
I am the spirit that guards these lands.

神に選ばれし勇者よ
O hero chosen by the Gods.
O great hero chosen by the gods...

汝求めし黒き力は　誇り高き山の種族の聖地にあり
The black power you seek lies in the sacred grounds of the proud mountain race.
The dark power you seek lies in the sacred grounds of the proud mountain dwellers.

されど、そこは既に　邪悪なる地と化している
But already that place has turned into a site of evil.
But already those grounds have been defiled, draped in shadow and seeded with evil.

汝、その地に赴き　聖なる力をもって　洗い清めよ
You must go there and cleanse it with the sacred power.
You must go to those sacred grounds and cleanse them.

Obviously the Goron Mines are not the Sacred Realm, and yet they are called that. The reason is that 聖 means "sacred", and 地 means "place". Totally generic term. The Mines are a sacred place, Hyrule is a sacred place.. heck, isn't the whole world the Goddesses created a sacred place? This drives me crazy...

As for the other mentions of 聖地 in TP: Midna repeats Eldin's information, Lanayru uses the word three times, the old man once, and then we have the Sages quote and Midna about the Twili, which I'm posting again:

かつて、聖地を手に入れようとハイラルに攻め込んできた盗賊の首領
He was once a leader of thieves who invaded Hyrule to obtain the sacred place.

魔力で聖地を治めようとした者達はその後・・・どうなったと思う？
After those people tried to rule the sacred place with magic? what do you think became of them?

聖地ハイラルを追われ神によって、ある場所に追いやられたのさ
Chased by the Gods across Hyrule, the sacred place, they were thrust aside to some place.

So, that's it. Exceeding the limits of language. It's all about interpretation. I just know that I know nothing...

[Raien]

So if we can't define the Sacred Realm by name, we have to define it by function. The Sacred Realm is a dimension that parallels Hyrule, and the Triforce that governs Hyrule lies inside. The Sacred Realm was also the place through which the goddesses returned to the heavens from Hyrule. This defines the Sacred Realm as a connecting dimension of heaven and Hyrule, and also the Sacred Realm's identity as a holy place.

So when "holy land" refers to the realm in which the Triforce lies and/or the place from which the goddesses returned to the heavens, we know it is the Sacred Realm. "Holy land" in other contexts can be identified by those contexts, such as the couple of examples which Jumbie distinguished in his last post.

What makes you think that? I said there's still no reason to make two separate events of them.

I thought the argument was that if TP references an event in the IW, it shows that the creators are still working with the IW. But according to your translation, there is no evidence of fighting over the Sacred Realm in TP, which means the creators were not referencing the IW in TP, which means it has officially been ten years since any reference to the IW in a chronological context was made in a new Zelda game.

Sure, we can speculate that people were fighting over the Sacred Realm in TP's back story, but it doesn't change the fact that there is no evidence of it.

Edited by Raian, 06 May 2008 - 11:48 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

This defines the Sacred Realm as a connecting dimension of heaven and Hyrule, and also the Sacred Realm's identity as a holy place.

Not at all. The Sacred Realm was the site where the goddesses left Hyrule, yes, but they could've done that from anywhere they pleased, as far as we know. The thing that makes it THE "Sacred Realm" is the fact that they left the Triforce there. In other words, to assume that the Sacred Realm has any special connection to the heavens is just baseless speculation.

Now as for Jumbie's translation, I don't think it's that shocking, really. The "Sacred Realm" was always a generic name, and more importantly, it was always said to be part of Hyrule. Indeed, OoT says the Sacred Realm only became such because it was the resting place of the Triforce; it is quite possible it was originally part of Hyrule, as suggested in TP, and only latter was separated (?) from the rest of the world.

That's why I'd like Jumbie to take a look at OoT's creation myth (unless you already have?). It would be interesting to see if it aligns or conflicts with the story in TP - i.e. was the Triforce originally placed in Hyrule, or the Sacred Realm?

Sure, we can speculate that people were fighting over the Sacred Realm in TP's back story, but it doesn't change the fact that there is no evidence of it.

Going with what I've just said, and as pointed out by Jumbie, during Lanayru's story the shadow clan is clearly shown to have desired the Triforce, which resides in the Sacred Realm (in TP, this is analogous to Hyrule). That is proof of such fighting, obviously.

I suppose this is also true for Ganondorf; that when he attempted to invade the holy land of Hyrule, what he truly sought was the Triforce, though whether he had the ToP already remains a mystery.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 06 May 2008 - 02:45 PM.

[Jumbie]

The Sacred Realm was also the place through which the goddesses returned to the heavens from Hyrule.

That is what I wrote in my first draft. In actuality though, the goddesses left Hyrule from... Hyrule.
OoT says the place where the goddesses descended and left the Triforce came to be known as the sacred place;
TP says the place where the goddesses landed came to be known as the sacred place, Hyrule.

So when "holy land" refers to the realm in which the Triforce lies and/or the place from which the goddesses returned to the heavens, we know it is the Sacred Realm. "Holy land" in other contexts can be identified by those contexts, such as the couple of examples which Jumbie distinguished in his last post.

Unfortunately, it's not that easy. Goron Mines is the only example that falls away. With anything else, the context is flowing. Hyrule just can't be properly distinguished from the Sacred Realm by what TP tells us.

But according to your translation, there is no evidence of fighting over the Sacred Realm in TP

Except that Lanayru explicitly says they fought over the "sacred place"? So what if Hyrule is that place - the magic users are visually shown to be after the Triforce, just like in ALttP. Apparently, the best way to rule Hyrule is to first get the Triforce.
Think about it, why would any criminals be interested in the holy land Hyrule, if not for the Triforce that is found there?
No, Ganondorf growing up in the desert is just one instance, that says nothing about the magic wielders. Unless, of course, if we want to assume the magic wielders are the Gerudos...

That's why I'd like Jumbie to take a look at OoT's creation myth (unless you already have?). It would be interesting to see if it aligns or conflicts with the story in TP - i.e. was the Triforce originally placed in Hyrule, or the Sacred Realm?

Once I did translate some passages of it, but just on the fly. Indeed, my most recent idea is to juxtapose all four versions of the creation myth (ALttP, OoT, OoT manual, TP).

Going with what I've just said, and as pointed out by Jumbie, during Lanayru's story the shadow clan is clearly shown to have desired the Triforce, which resides in the Sacred Realm (in TP, this is analogous to Hyrule). That is proof of such fighting, obviously.

I suppose this is also true for Ganondorf; that when he attempted to invade the holy land of Hyrule, what he truly sought was the Triforce, though whether he had the ToP already remains a mystery.

Ah, good to know that I did express myself clearly enough

[Raien]

Except that Lanayru explicitly says they fought over the "sacred place"? So what if Hyrule is that place - the magic users are visually shown to be after the Triforce, just like in ALttP. Apparently, the best way to rule Hyrule is to first get the Triforce.
Think about it, why would any criminals be interested in the holy land Hyrule, if not for the Triforce that is found there?
No, Ganondorf growing up in the desert is just one instance, that says nothing about the magic wielders. Unless, of course, if we want to assume the magic wielders are the Gerudos...

Why would medieval Christians be interested in the real-world "Holy Land" if there was no magical power there? Divinity is symbolic of power in the world; the power of gods, to be exact. If you take possession of what represents the power of gods, it represents your own power in the world. That is why Ganon sought to conquer Hyrule even after he had possession of the Triforce; taking Hyrule would establish himself as a dominant force in the world.

The Dark Tribe in TP's back story did not need the Triforce to conquer Hyrule; they already had their own shadow magic which was only stopped by the intervention of the goddesses themselves. So was the Triforce really an active target for the Dark Tribe, or was its appearance in Lanayru's story as a symbol of Hyrule? Given that the Triforce appeared when the rivalry over Hyrule was referred, I think it was meant as a symbol of Hyrule. After all, everything else in that back story was represented by symbols, including the Dark Tribe as Dark Links and the white eyes representing the blindness of greed.

Edited by Raian, 06 May 2008 - 03:16 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Why would medieval Christians be interested in the real-world "Holy Land" if there was no magical power there? The thing is, divinity is symbolic of the power of gods in the world. If you take possession of what represents the power of gods, it represents your own power in the world. That is why Ganon seeks to conquer Hyrule even after he has possession of the Triforce; taking Hyrule establishes himself as a dominant force in the world.

Oh please, the only reason we have been told that anyone would covet Hyrule, the only reason it is a holy land, is because the Triforce is there. The creators evidently do not care about your medieval legends; simply repeating over and over that they do does not make it so.

The Dark Tribe in TP's back story did not need the Triforce to conquer Hyrule; they already had their own shadow magic which was only stopped by the intervention of the goddesses themselves. Was the Triforce really an active target for the Dark Tribe, or was its appearance in Lanayru's story as a symbol of Hyrule? Given that it appears when the rivalry over Hyrule is referred, I think it is a symbol of Hyrule. After all, everything else in that back story was represented by symbols, including the Dark Tribe as Dark Links and the white eyes representing greed.

This is just stupid. Really, how obvious do they need to make things? ALttP says the people lived in peace, until a time came when greed awoke in the hearts of men, and they strived in their quest to obtain the Triforce. TP says, what? The exact same thing. That anyone, save perhaps LionHarted, would ignore this obvious fact simply boogles my mind.

The simple fact of the matter is that, as far as TP is concerned, the Sacred Realm is Hyrule, the resting place of the Triforce. That is what the rivalry was about.

And really, if the rule of Hyrule was so important, don't you think the actual Power of the Gods would be even more coveted? Ganondorf (and Zant) certainly thought so, which is why he didn't give a damn about the Fused Shadow knowing the power of the Triforce.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 06 May 2008 - 03:20 PM.

[Raien]

Oh please, the only reason we have been told that anyone would covet Hyrule, the only reason it is a holy land, is because the Triforce is there. The creators evidently do not care about your medieval legends; simply repeating over and over that they do does not make it so.

So why does Ganon want to conquer Hyrule after he has the Triforce? Why does any evil king in any fairy tale and fantasy story want conquest over lands that do not bare any real magical powers? The fact is that even if Hyrule was not a holy land, dominance over land and people is symbolic of power, which by definition is the drive of evil kings to conquest. Hyrule being a holy land only adds to the significance of this motivation, because it represents the power of gods. It makes Hyrule the centre of evil designs by Ganondorf and the Dark Tribe.

This is just stupid. Really, how obvious do they need to make things? ALttP says the people lived in peace, until a time came when greed awoke in the hearts of men, and they strived in their quest to obtain the Triforce. TP says, what? The exact same thing. That anyone, save perhaps LionHarted, would ignore this obvious fact simply boogles my mind.

The simple fact of the matter is that, as far as TP is concerned, the Sacred Realm is Hyrule, the resting place of the Triforce. That is what the rivalry was about.

As far as TP is concerned, the Sacred Realm does not exist. It has no mention in Lanayru's story and no relation to the Triforce or the Temple of Time, even when Link took the Master Sword from the pedestal of time. Having it acknowledged in the NOA version of Lanayru's story was always something I found problematic given that if the Dark Tribe did not have access to the Sacred Realm, then the description "trying to rule" would be completely wrong for the context, seeing as you cannot rule what you cannot access. And if the Dark Tribe had literal control over the Sacred Realm, then the world would be remade in the image of the wish on the Triforce, and that would naturally fuck up the entire Zelda universe. Lanayru cannot refer to the Sacred Realm because of these problems.

And for the record, Lanayru did not say that the people sought the Triforce either. When Hyrule was first named the holy land, we see the people looking at the Triforce, Hyrule's symbol, in happiness. When it was said the people desired Hyrule, this was signified by Link running toward the Triforce. And then as it was said the magic dwellers appeared to rule Hyrule, they appeared in front of the Triforce. Now we know the Dark Tribe did not take the Triforce because that would lead to some real problems regarding the Zelda universe, so that really leaves us with one conclusion as to what the Triforce means. It cannot be literal, and thus it must be Hyrule.

And really, if the rule of Hyrule was so important, don't you think the actual Power of the Gods would be even more coveted? Ganondorf (and Zant) certainly thought so, which is why he didn't give a damn about the Fused Shadow knowing the power of the Triforce.

Power is the means, dominance is the end. The Triforce is the power Ganon sought to dominate Hyrule and the world. The Fused Shadows is the power the Dark Tribe had to dominate Hyrule, and perhaps later the world.

Edited by Raian, 06 May 2008 - 04:14 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

So why does Ganon want to conquer Hyrule?

Here's the simple answer: He doesn't. Ganon is never said to care specifically about Hyrule - he just wants to rule the world. The exception is TWW, in which he had personal motivations, but that does not aid your theory.

Let's make a list:

LoZ: Ganon's motives are largely unknown, but he seems chiefly interested in the Triforces - they were the reason he attacked Hyrule, and also why he kidnapped Zelda.

AoL: Ganon is dead...

ALttP: Ganon wants to rule the world; his expressed wish is to "rule the cosmos" and to "conquer both light and dark worlds." Where's Hyrule on that wish list of his? I dunno.

OoT: Ganondorf wants to rule Hyrule? "No, the entire world!" - Zelda
The reason he stays in Hyrule is because 1) That's where his makai is, and 2) that's where the missing Triforce pieces that would enable him to conquer the world are.

OoX: Ganon wants to destroy everything. A bit simple-minded, isn't he?

FSA: Ganon seeks... Power? To rule (and ruin) the world? Well, that's what the inscription says...

TP: Ganondorf wants to merge light and shadow, create a world of darkness, and pretty much rule the world.

So, where's the quest for Hyrule in all of this? I really can't see it.

As far as TP is concerned, the Sacred Realm does not exist. It had no mention in relation to TP's story and no relation to the Triforce or the Temple of Time.

No, see, the Sacred Realm IS Hyrule. This is nothing new; the whole land just hasn't been given that name before.

And for the record, Lanayru did not say that the people sought the Triforce itself; you added that little detail yourself. It was said the people desired Hyrule, and this was signified by Link running toward the Triforce; Hyrule's symbol. And then the Dark Tribe appeared in front of the Triforce, as it was said the magic dwellers appeared to rule Hyrule. Can that symbolism not be any more obvious?

You just made that up.

And as Jumbie said, a probable explanation why the sacred place (not "Hyrule", though they are the same thing, the sacred land is, again, important only because of the Triforce) was coveted is that TP deliberately refrains from mentioning the Triforce by its true name; it would only be logical to use imagery to drive the point home.

And anyway, the Triforce is what always has caused strife in Hyrule, so why would this time be different?

Now we know the Dark Tribe did not take the Triforce because that would lead to some real problems regarding the Zelda universe, so that really leaves us with one conclusion as to what the Triforce means.

Nothing says the light spirits did not appear before the magic users touched the Triforce (in fact, it is very obvious they did), so that's not an issue either way.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 06 May 2008 - 04:15 PM.

[Raien]

So, where's the quest for Hyrule in all of this? I really can't see it.

You missed TWW. I'm not surprised given that Ganondorf's wish on the Triforce disproves your entire point. At don't tell me you forgot; it's one of most prominent games in the timeline. And Ganondorf admitted he coveted Hyrule since he was the Gerudo King, so his wish for Hyrule in TWW would have been the same desire he had in OoT.

No, see, the Sacred Realm IS Hyrule. This is nothing new; the whole land just hasn't been given that name before.

By that logic, Manchester in the USA is also the same city as Manchester in the UK, because they have the same name. It doesn't matter that the two have different locations, different functions, different people, are altogether different from each other. Only the name matters.

You just made that up.

So the Triforce is not Hyrule's symbol? Even when we see it all over Hyrule and on the Royal Family crest?

And anyway, the Triforce is what always has caused strife in Hyrule, so why would this time be different?

Means to an end. Power is the means, dominance is the end. The Triforce is the power Ganon sought to dominate Hyrule and the world. The Fused Shadows is the power the Dark Tribe had to dominate Hyrule, and perhaps later the world. Even in FSA, Ganon did not need the Triforce to dominate Hyrule when he had the Trident.

Nothing says the light spirits did not appear before the magic users touched the Triforce (in fact, it is very obvious they did), so that's not an issue either way.

The Dark Tribe is depicted standing in front of the Triforce in the act of killing someone who seeks the Triforce. This actively suggests the Dark Tribe have control of the Triforce. If they did not, we would see them looking toward the Triforce, if not making the same movements as the civilian.

Edited by Raian, 06 May 2008 - 04:35 PM.