1600 replies to this topic

[Hero of Legend]

Didn't you read what I said? Yes, it's the same thing. What changes isn't important, it's the fact that it changes. OoT was supposed to be the origin story - everything from Link's tunic, to Ganondorf, to the creation of Hyrule makes that evident. Yes, ALttP was also first, and OoT changed that. That's the POINT. Here, let me walk you through it:

TMC does not change OoT's story. At all.

The Oracles do not change LA's story. Or ALttP's.

What you're doing is separating a sequel from the game it comes after, changing the actual Link who appears in those games.

You say that as if it made any difference whatsoever. It doesn't. The story isn?t changed, and even if it was, changes can be made to every facet of a game.

ALttP was the first game at some point, that doesn't mean that OoT changed their intent.

If ALttP was intended to tell the tale of Ganon's origin, yes.

And OoT doesn't present any "hard facts" that make it first.

Yeah, it does. It's evident from the story, not from some random lines in the ending. That?s the difference between in-game facts and legends.

I'm following the intent of TMC to determine its own placement,

No, you believe that to be the intent. It's far from a fact ? after all, shouldn?t the placement be obvious from in game facts, not your interpretation of the ending?

while you're following what you believe is the intent of the Oracles to determine a different game's placement eight years earlier.

TMC does not make it evident to you that FS is its sequel? Wow.

But there isn't much evidence of this supposed intent in the Oracles. It's really just the ending that could be seen as a reference.

Yeah, and that line about Link's power, wisdom and courage that you love to ignore. But it doesn't matter because the ending is all I require. Are you denying that there was a point to it? Then we don't have anything to say to each other.

However, there is not a single contradiction in LA as a sequel to ALttP, and nothing you say can change that.

Wow, that's irrelevant. I never said anything about that.

There are contradictions in TMC being anywhere except at the start, especially because the entire point of the story is actually the beginning of Link's adventures.

According to you, yes.

That's not the same as a throwaway scene at the end that doesn't relate to the plot or have any in-game explanation associated with it.

Wow, so the creation of the Four Sword has relevance to the entire timeline? I had no idea. Or if we go the other way, what point is there to either ending, other than to signify exactly what they appear to signify?

[Jumbie]

Could you all FINALLY STOP defiling this thread with pages and pages of unrelated debates?
This is not a playground for whatever debate springs up, it's meant as a referential place for game translations!

If you look through here and find you have something to add about a certain point made pages ago, be so kind and copy that quote into a NEW thread! Is it that hard really?!

I'm repeating myself for the 1000th time. And it's not for myself - it's for any visitors who might be interested in reading this thread from beginning to end; I certainly don't want them to get put off by pages full of irrelevant side debates!
I can really imagine better things than having to ask Arturo every week to split all the junk off of this thread.
If this keeps on, I suggest that maybe the Warning system should be put to its use...


That said, I have a tiny update. I'm aware that normally, Hero of Legend's request about FSA was next in line, but since my ways are random and Impossible's request was shorter, I stepped out of order. Don't worry, I will do it all come the right time.

オマエも　オイラの友だちに　なってくれるか？
Could you be my friend, too?
Could you be my friend, too?

ウヒヒッ・・・オマエ　森でオイラに歌を教えてくれた　妖精の子と同じニオイがする
Uh-hee-hee… You have the same smell as the fairy kid who taught me that song in the woods.
Eh-hee-hee… You have the same smell as the fairy kid who taught me that song in the woods…

じゃあ、じゃあ、何して 遊ぶ！
I know, I know, let's play something!
I know, I know! Let's do something!

Btw, I also found that Tatl seems to be a bit ruder with Link in her words of departure:

おたがい目標は　達成したんだしアンタとは、ここでお別れね！
With you having achieved the goals of both of us, this is farewell here, isn't it!
Well, both of us have gotten what we were after... So this is where you and I part ways, isn't it?

まあまあ、楽しかったわよ
Oh well, it was fun, and stuff.
You know…it was kind of fun.

さあ、そろそろ　カーニバルが　はじまる時間だわ
Come on, it's almost time for the carnival to begin…
Well…it's almost time for the carnival to begin…

さっさと行ったら？
If you could just quickly be off?
So, why don't you just leave and go about your business? The rest of us have a carnival to go to.

！ありがとう
! Thank you.
Link! ...Thank you.

By the way, I found a row of unused quotes in TP's textdump (the English one) which give us some insight into what was originally planned with the Palace of Twilight dungeon. The quotes are about Zant, about the Sols, about the princess.. and Midna is not the one who says them. So, I'll post them when I have more time.

One last thing today, concerning the Japanese text of TWW that is not available as a dump: I've finally thought of checking YouTube for a Japanese visual guide, and luckily there is one for TWW. So, that at last will get me the text, though naturally it'll take a while to transcribe it from screenshots. In another thread I've already spotted an indirect request of TWW text, so that's what I'm gonna focus on soon.

Although, of course, I'm trying to get the FSA stuff done before that.

Edited by Jumbie, 11 April 2008 - 11:19 PM.

[Impossible]

I don't see any real difference in Tatl's goodbye, aside from the carnival bit. The implication of both is that she's pretending not to care that Link is leaving.

Some TWW translations should prove much more interesting than anything in FSA. I trust that TWW's final scenes are accurate in English, but a second way of wording them might shed some light on details that aren't explicit - and TWW's ending is full of details that aren't explicit. Looking forward to that.

I'm dropping the point with HoL anyway. He doesn't seem to understand my point at all.

[LionHarted]

By the way, I found a row of unused quotes in TP's textdump (the English one) which give us some insight into what was originally planned with the Palace of Twilight dungeon. The quotes are about Zant, about the Sols, about the princess.. and Midna is not the one who says them. So, I'll post them when I have more time.

I always thought that had something to do with why that segment of the game seems so unpolished and sloppy.

[Duke Serkol]

for any visitors who might be interested in reading this thread from beginning to end; I certainly don't want them to get put off by pages full of irrelevant side debates!
I can really imagine better things than having to ask Arturo every week to split all the junk off of this thread.

I'm afraid it's already quite a bit late for that.
Wouldn't it be easier if you were given mod powers (which, being a staff member, I think you ought to have anyways) so you could do our own splitting?

[Showsni]

It would be easier if people wouldn't go wildly off topic in the first place...
Jumbie, you can always PM me to split stuff.

[FDL]

Perhaps it'd be best if there a was a stickied topic where Jumbie and Prime Blue could post their translations(for easy access) while people discuss it in a separate thread?

[Malu CLBS]

Perhaps it'd be best if there a was a stickied topic where Jumbie and Prime Blue could post their translations(for easy access) while people discuss it in a separate thread?

The problem is that this thread is supposed to work that way. And yet everybody comes and discusses here.

[Jumbie]

Exactly. The idea is that people inform here about the differences, and if something of that gives rise to a debate, they are encouraged to create a new topic.
That way there would regularly be new threads, which would help bring some more life into these boards.

[Prime Blue]

Regarding The Wind Waker: I was going to beat the Japanese version either way, so you might as well post the English passages you would like to translate from the original Japanese wording. Direct-feed screenshots will make the transcription from the text easier than those tiny crappy YouTube videos (it's batshit insane to try to decipher these infinitesimally small furigana - believe me, I've done it before).
It'll take a few weeks for the shots to arrive due to my working duties, but I still think it's the better solution.

So basically, you give me "You received the legendary Wind Waker!" and you would get such a screenshot in return (just in Japanese):


You could also order those requests chronologically, that would make it easier, not to miss a quote during my playthrough y'know.


Another possibility for me would be to look into the file structure and to locate the text.

Edited by Prime Blue, 14 April 2008 - 02:26 PM.

[FDL]

Perhaps it'd be best if there a was a stickied topic where Jumbie and Prime Blue could post their translations(for easy access) while people discuss it in a separate thread?

The problem is that this thread is supposed to work that way. And yet everybody comes and discusses here.

Exactly. The idea is that people inform here about the differences, and if something of that gives rise to a debate, they are encouraged to create a new topic.
That way there would regularly be new threads, which would help bring some more life into these boards.

Well, that may be, but it hasn't worked out that way so far. Perhaps compiling it all into a new thread and then setting down those rules for any future translations would change that? That's what I'm trying to say.

Regarding The Wind Waker: I was going to beat the Japanese version either way, so you might as well post the English passages you would like to translate from the original Japanese wording. Direct-feed screenshots will make the transcription from the text easier than those tiny crappy YouTube videos (it's batshit insane to try to decipher these infinitesimally small furigana - believe me, I've done it before).
It'll take a few weeks for the shots to arrive due to my working duties, but I still think it's the better solution.

So basically, you give me "You received the legendary Wind Waker!" and you would get such a screenshot in return (just in Japanese):


You could also order those requests chronologically, that would make it easier, not to miss a quote during my playthrough y'know.


Another possibility for me would be to look into the file structure and to locate the text.

I've got four that I'd like to see. The lines after the first Forsaken Fortress in which the KoRL is explaining who Ganondorf is, Ganondorf explaining how the seal on his magic worked, the whole scene where Tetra learns her true identity, and the lines in which the King tells Link about what happened to the Hero of Time and the Triforce of Courage. Sorry if that's too many, I know many would require more than one screenshot.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 14 April 2008 - 03:04 PM.

[Prime Blue]

I've got four that I'd like to see. The lines after the first Forsaken Fortress in which the KoRL is explaining who Ganondorf is, Ganondorf explaining how the seal on his magic worked, the whole scene where Tetra learns her true identity, and the lines in which the King tells Link about what happened to the Hero of Time and the Triforce of Courage. Sorry if that's too many, I know many would require more than one screenshot.

Taking the screenshots is no problem, the real work here is to get the exact quotes and that's you people's part. Thus, you should quote from the text dump or the game script - as I will not automatically know when these scenes occur.

[Hero of Legend]

Quote Faq

I'm too tired to find the exact quotes right now.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 14 April 2008 - 04:17 PM.

[Raien]

These are the quotes I would like you to find please, Prime Blue. There's a lot here because I'm hoping to catch as many Hyrule/OoT references as possible, but I have tried to make it easy as possible for you to find. I hope you can capture all this:

1) I'm not quoting this directly, but I would like you to record the introduction back story (the text that has a tapestry behind it).

2) Grandma says this after giving you the Hero's Clothes:

Today is a day to celebrate! It is the day
that you become the same age as the young
hero spoken of in all the legends.

3) After you finish the sword tutorial with Orca, he says this (text begins as soon as the tutorial finishes).

And yet...I sense a certain anxiousness
in the sword you hold...an eagerness that
goes far beyond the mere desire to be
wielded on the fields of battle...

I do no know what has happened...

But I have faith in you. Somehow, I doubt
you will misuse that sword...

You may have it, Link. I give it
freely. Take the blade with you...

Since the olden days, this sword has been
used to fend off evil...

Its blade is infused with the desire to
become strong and righteous.

4) Quill says this after Aryll has been captured by Tetra (notice that he raises his hand to silence Tetra, before saying these lines).

Now, as my work entails delivering letters,
I spend much of my time traveling amongst
the many different islands. As a result,
I hear many things...

Haven't any of you heard word that young
girls have been getting kidnapped lately
from all regions of the Great Sea?

No matter. Whether you've heard it or not,
that seems to be the case. Young girls with
long ears like yours have been getting
kidnapped, never to be seen again.

5) When Link first wakes up on the King of Red Lions, he first tells of Ganon (when you see Ganon's back on-screen, that's when it says "He who obtained the power of the gods...")

His name is...Ganon...

...He who obtained the power of the gods,
attempted to cover the land in darkness,
and was ultimately sealed away by the
very power he hoped to command.

He is the very same Ganon...
The emperor of the dark realm the ancient
legends speak of...

I do not know why the seal of the gods has
failed, but now that Ganon has
returned, the world is once again being
threatened by his evil magic.

6) The Deku Tree speaks this only in the Second Quest (where Hylian becomes English/Japanese). I don't whether you'll want to play through it a second time, but here it is anyway.

That garb you wear...
Could you be the legendary hero?

Has the king at long last found the
Hero of Time?

What is the matter? Do you not understand
the ancient Hylian tongue?

7) The Deku Tree speaks this after you rescue Makar and receive Farore's Pearl.

Every year after the Koroks perform this
ceremony, they fly off to the distant
islands on the sea and plant my seeds
in the hopes that new forests will grow.

Forests hold great power--they can change
one tiny island into a much larger island.
Soon, a day will come when all the islands
are one, connected by earth and grove.

And the people who live on that great
island will be able to join hands and,
together, create a better world.

Such is my dream.

8) The conversation with Jabun is only fully visible in the Second Quest, and I would like you to record the whole conversation if possible. If it isn't possible, could you record this excerpt?

The one I have brought with me has no
connection to the legendary one.

And yet I sense great promise in the
courage that this one possesses.

9) When Link confronts Ganondorf on the top of Forsaken Fortress:

By the way, boy... When you drew that
sword of yours out of its pedestal...

Did you by chance notice how all of the
monsters frozen in time down there
suddenly began stirring again?

Do you understand precisely what that
means? ...I highly doubt you do.

Foolish child. While that sword is indeed
the blade of evil's bane, at the same time,
it has long played another role...

You see, it is also a sort of key...
a most wretched little key that has kept
the seal on me and my magic intact!

By withdrawing the blade, you have
broken that seal...

10) Once again, I'm not quoting this directly, but I would like you to record the conversation between Tetra/Zelda and the King of Hyrule in the Master Sword Chamber (you can stop when the King of Hyrule disappears). It's very long, but it's all very important.

11) When Link meets the King of Red Lions in the pool outside Hyrule Castle, the King of Hyrule will explain the temples. Please record that conversation.

12) When the King of Red Lions rises to the surface of the Great Sea after the previous conversation, he talks about the Triforce of Courage. Please record the whole conversation.

13) When you first meet Laruto, the Zora Sage, please record her entire speech.

14) When you speak to Medli for the second time (don't take out the Wind Waker), she says this:

This instrument is called one of fate's tools.

Prince Komali's grandmother saw me
carrying it one day and called out to
me to stop. She'd seen my fate in the
curves of the instrument, you see.

She eventually became my teacher, and
that's how I became the attendant you
see before you today.

15) When Link returns to the Tower of the Gods with the Triforce of Courage restored, the King of Red Lions says this:

Well done, Link. You must show
the Triforce piece you have assembled to
the gods.

(Link shows it, Triforce of Courage symbol appears on his hand)

Oh! What is this? There, on your hand--the
Triforce piece now dwells within you!

It is the Triforce of Courage--proof
that you are indeed the true hero.

You have controlled the wind and crossed
the seas, and here, near the end of your
quest, the power of the gods has been
bestowed upon you...

Surely, from this moment on, you shall be
known as the Hero of Winds...

16) Talk to the King of Hyrule after destroying Ganon's barrier with the Master Sword (which allows you to enter Ganon's Tower):

Long ago, Ganon's Tower was an
impenetrable fortress that not even
the daring and dauntless Knights of
Hyrule could hope to assail.

You must sharpen your senses so as not to
fall victim to Ganon's illusions.

17) Before and directly after the battle with Puppet Ganon, Ganondorf has lots to say about Hyrule. Please record the entire conversation.

18) Please record the entire conversation with Ganondorf and the King of Hyrule at the top of Ganon's Tower, up until the game ends.


WOW! And I'm done. I'm going to be very grateful if you can get through all this. This would be so much easier if we had a Japanese text dump available.

Edited by jhurvid, 14 April 2008 - 06:04 PM.

[Impossible]

That list is so comprehensive that I can't think of anything else to ask for... My only other request was something back at the end of page 5 in TP, I think.

[Hero of Legend]

I would add Gohdan's lines along with what the King says before and after the Tower of the Gods, and also the Sages' (Laruto and Fado) tales. Also, when you return to the Deku Tree after discovering the Forest Springwater (talk to one of the Koroks, and maybe cure a tree) you can ask him about the King and his search for the Hero of Time. I'd be interested in all of that.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 15 April 2008 - 10:36 AM.

[Jumbie]

That's very good news, Prime Blue! I just hope you aren't discouraged by the long list that FDLink, jhurvid, and HoL compiled...
In that case it's probably easier to look into the file structure.
Until you get to the ending battle, my screen transcription of that scene should already be completed. And yes, it is a pain.

Wait, that example screenshot of the Wind Waker, "you can borrow the power of the gods" - wasn't that supposed to be the Triforce's nickname?

6) The Deku Tree speaks this only in the Second Quest (where Hylian becomes English/Japanese). I don't whether you'll want to play through it a second time, but here it is anyway.

8) The conversation with Jabun is only fully visible in the Second Quest, and I would like you to record the whole conversation if possible. If it isn't possible, could you record this excerpt?

Well, Prime could take those screenshots already in the First Quest, it's not a big problem to transcribe Hylian to Japanese.

My only other request was something back at the end of page 5 in TP, I think.

Oh, yes, Zant's story. I halted halfway through that... Will be finished.


Now, finally, a completed request. For Hero of Legend, the last stages of FSA (it's more than you asked for, but still not every single line):

リンク！　とうとう風の魔神グフーを?。
Link! Finally the wind majin Gufuu?
Link! You've defeated the wind sorcerer Vaati.

?！　この宮殿は　本来　グフーの魔力によって　支えられていたもの。
?! This palace in itself was propped by Gufuu's magical strength.
?! This palace was built on the power of Vaati's magical strength.

あるじを失ったことで　形を保っていられなく　なったのですわ?。
With its master gone, it can no longer retain its form?
With its master gone, it can no longer retain its form.

ここにいては　まきこまれて　しまいます。急いで　風の塔をくだりましょう！
We can't stay here any longer. We must hurry down the Tower of Winds!
We can't stay here any longer! We must escape to the Tower of Winds!

風の魔神グフーとやらが　この程度だったとはな。
This was all there was to that wind majin Gufuu, eh?
This was all there was to the wind sorcerer Vaati, eh?

フォーソードの前には　なすすべも　なしか?。役立たずめ?！
Before the Four Sword, he was at his wit's ends? So useless?!
Before the Four Sword, you were at your wit's ends. Useless cur!

ハイラルの者どもから　うばいし力も　まだ足りん。
Even the power stolen from Hyrule's people still wasn't enough.
I did not steal enough power from the Hyruleans.

たぎる?。血がたぎるぞ　勇者よ?！
I'm seething? My blood is seething, heroes?!
My blood boils, heroes! It seethes at the sight of you!

ハカイへの渇き！　怒りを解き放つ　この快感！！
I thirst for destruction! The delight of releasing wrath!!
I thirst for destruction! For the pure release of rage, the power of wrath!

フォーソードなど　このトライデントが　打ちくだいてくれるわ！
Four Sword and whatnot ? this trident will tear you to pieces!
Four Sword or no, my trident will reduce you to nothingness!

まっていろ　虫ケラども！！！
Just you wait, you worms!!!
I'm waiting, you worms!

！！　この強大な闇のかたまりは　いったい何？！
!! This mighty mass of darkness, what on earth is that?!
What? That raw patch of darkness, deeper than the blackest night...

こ?これは?。グフー？！　いえ、風の魔神とは　ちがう?。
I..is that? Gufuu?! No, it's different from the wind majin?
Is... Is that Vaati? No, it's not the wind sorcerer?

しかし　このままでは?。私の力で封じこめねば！
But in this case? If I don't seal it away with my power?!
No matter, I must use my power to seal it away!

息が重い?　力が抜けて?　こうしている　だけでも?。
My breath is heavy? My power is fading? already from that?
Can't breathe... My strength is failing me...

まわりの空気が　死んでいくようだわ?。
The air around me seems to be dying?
The very air around me is growing thin? dying?

もうすこし?　?もっと力を?！　もっと?！！
Just a little bit? ?more power?! More?!!
I only need a bit? more power? MORE!!

つまらん?！　ハイラル王女とやらの力も　たかが知れるというもの。
Enough?! The questionable power of the princess of Hyrule, too, amounts to only that.
Enough! The princess of Hyrule and all her power amounts to nothing!

ゼルダ！　このガノンが　キサマを　封じこんでくれる！
Zelda! I, Ganon, now seal you away!
Zelda! I, Ganon, now seal you away forever!

ガノン?。この魔獣が　ゲルド族?、人間だった　ガノンドロフだというの?！
Ganon? This demon beast was of the Gerudo tribe?, it was human and called Ganondorf?!
Ganon? this beast was once of the Gerudo... Once human. He was called Ganondorf!

闇の王?　太古から　よみがえった　魔の邪器（じゃき）、トライデントを手にした男！！
King of Darkness? The man who took the Trident, the demon's evil device (ja-ki) revived from ancient times!!
King of Darkness, ancient demon reborn. The wielder of the trident!!

でも　いまなら?！　ガノンの力が　弱まっている　いまなら！！
Yet if now?! If Ganon's power has grown weak now!!
Yet now... While Ganon's power has waned...

私は残された　ありったけの力を　ここに注ぎ、光の玉を放ちます！
Pouring all of my remaining power here, I will release a ball of light!
I will pour all of my remaining strength into this ball of light!

かがやきが満ちたら　この光の玉を放つわ！
When its radiance is full, I will let it go!
When it is suffused with Power, I will release it and strike!

だから　その時は　これを！
So, at that time, use this!
At that time, use this!

その弓矢を　光の玉めがけ、力いっぱい　うち放って！！
Aim that bow and arrow at the ball of light, and shoot into it with all your might!!
Fire at the ball of light with all your might!

あなたと私が力を合わせれば　きっとあのガノンを封印できます！
If you and I combine our powers, surely that Ganon can be sealed!
If we combine our powers, we may yet be able to seal Ganon away from the world!

光の玉のかがやきが　十分に満ちるまで?。それまで　なんとか　ガノンの動きを封じて！！
Until the ball of light's radiance is full enough? Somehow prevent Ganon's movement until then!!
Link! You must hold back Ganon until my ball of light is ready!!

Notes:
- Interestingly, when Ganon calls Vaati "so useless", that could also be read as "useless eyeball". But that wasn't intended here, it's just a funny coincidence.

- I'm not sure if the line, "Even the power stolen from Hyrule's people still wasn't enough" refers to Ganon or Vaati. I think it's Vaati, because he was the one who actually drained the power, so this would be Ganon continuing to mock Vaati's defeat.

- "Demon beast" (魔獣) is quite a special term that only reappears in TP, being the Japanese title of "dark beast" Ganon. There, Midna calls Link the "divine beast" (神獣) and remarks that it's fitting for the divine beast and the demon beast to face off. This is once again a theme taken from Japanese mythology, a battle of two mighty animals representing good and evil.
Anyway, what matters for FSA is that this form of Ganon is apparently comparable to his beast form in TP.

- I also revisited the infamous quote. Now, after months of pondering, I finally came to a conclusion on what "ja-ki" (邪器) is supposed to mean. It doesn't mean "evil spirit" nor "evil vessel", but "evil device / tool". So, no spirit in the trident, at least as far as we're told.
Also, the sentence says the demon's trident has been "revived", which just means "reactivated" or "brought back".
Because of all that, the reason Zelda knows this presumed stuff of legends is simpler than we thought: It's merely the knowledge the maidens acquired throughout that same game, so *anyone* could've summed up who Ganon is the way Zelda does...

- Somehow I find it noteworthy that Zelda pours her power "here" (into the room), where it then takes the form of a ball of light. NoA's version implies she actively shapes a ball.

- Zelda doesn't say "seal Ganon away from the world", just in case that makes a difference for someone...

Edited by Jumbie, 09 June 2008 - 10:07 PM.

[Impossible]

Resurrected was translated earlier by Prime Blue as "revived", wasn't it? So doesn't that still imply that someone was brought back to life in some way?

[Raien]

Thanks for clearing the dark silence, Jumbie. A good translation as ever.

Notes:- I'm not sure if the line, "Even the power stolen from Hyrule's people still wasn't enough" refers to Ganon or Vaati. I think it's Vaati, because he was the one who actually drained the power, so this would be Ganon continuing to mock Vaati's defeat.

What does Ganon mean by Vaati being at his "wit's end"? It says "Before the Four Sword, Vaati was at his wit's end. Even the power of Hyrule's people was not enough." Could it mean Vaati was power-mad, but ultimately did not have enough power to stop Link? Or something...

- I also revisited the infamous quote. Now, after months of pondering, I finally came to a conclusion on what "ja-ki" (邪器) is supposed to mean. It doesn't mean "evil spirit" nor "evil vessel", but "evil device / tool". So, no spirit in the trident, at least as far as we're told.

How confident are you of this? Wouldn't want to make conclusions and then find you've changed your mind.

Also, it's quite a shame that the word is "resurrected" and not "reborn" or "reincarnated". The sentence says the demon who the trident belongs to, the King of Darkness, has been resurrected.

Are you sure that's a correct interpretation? Looking at the translation myself, it appears to say that the King of Darkness is the man who took the Trident (i.e. Ganondorf), and that the Trident is a demon's device that Ganondorf resurrected from ancient times. It doesn't appear to say that the demon itself was resurrected, or that the King of Darkness is the ancient demon.

Also, have you translated the pedestal's words within the Pyramid? I've looked through my list and it's not there. I wouldn't mind seeing how the two quotations compare.

- Zelda doesn't say "seal Ganon away from the world", just in case that makes a difference for someone...

I think the point was clear enough with the NOA translation. But while we're on the subject, your translation also means the only use of the word "Hyruleans" doesn't exist in Zelda canon. So Lexs discrepancy of the words "Hyrulians" and "Hyruleans" doesn't exist.

Edited by jhurvid, 17 April 2008 - 06:10 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

Heh, I like the Japanese text more than the official translation, though it doesn't answer any questions... Good work anyway, Jumbie.

So, Vaati is "supposedly" dead, and Ganon is "possibly" reincarnated? That's pretty ambiguous on both accounts. Yet Ganondorf was reborn; that's obvious from the game, so...

Anyway, I noticed what you said about Vaati being the one who drained the power from Hyrule. I agree with you, but now I realize: Ganon couldn't do this. Vaati and Bellum could. Now, they are the same kind of demon, so that's not too surprising, but what it means is that this ability is probably exclusive to these demons in the Zelda series. That's pretty cool.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 April 2008 - 05:56 AM.

[FDL]

Looks like I don't need to post what lines I want, jhurvid's covered them. Anyway, those are interesting Jumbie. I'm confused, though. Does the original JP version say that Ganon is the thing that was ressurected, or just the trident.

[Fyxe]

Yes, I too am confused by your translation of said line, Jumbie. What exactly is being reborn?

I think any discrepancy over the differences between 'reborn' 'revived' and 'resurrected' is just semantic nonsense. They all essentially mean the same thang.

I do think that the Japanese version seems to make it a LOT more clear that the trident belonged to the ancient demon, and this demon was Ganon, which obviously emphasises a post-ALttP placement. The details seem as vague as ever though, but FSA wasn't exactly made with plot in mind.

[Duke Serkol]

Also, it's quite a shame that the word is "resurrected" and not "reborn" or "reincarnated". The sentence says the demon who the trident belongs to, the King of Darkness, has been resurrected.

Are you sure that's a correct interpretation? Looking at the translation myself, it appears to say that the King of Darkness is the man who took the Trident (i.e. Ganondorf), and that the Trident is a demon's device that Ganondorf resurrected from ancient times. It doesn't appear to say that the demon itself was resurrected

That certainly would make sense and match the structure of the sentence much better! In fact, all it needs to work in Jumbie's current translation is an additional comma:

King of Darkness? The man who took the Trident, the evil device (ja-ki) of the demon, resurrected from ancient times!!

[Hero of Legend]

I do think that the Japanese version seems to make it a LOT more clear that the trident belonged to the ancient demon, and this demon was Ganon, which obviously emphasises a post-ALttP placement.

I wouldn?t say that. Yes, we are told the trident belonged to an ancient demon who was the King of Darkness, but that?s all the game tells us. Ganondorf, the man who retrieved the trident and became Ganon, the King of Darkness, does not necessarily have anything to do with the previous King of Darkness. Obviously the implication that it is Ganon?s old trident is there, but it's even more vague than in the NoA version, which directly states that Ganon is the King of Darkness reborn.

edit: "The sentence says the demon who the trident belongs to, the King of Darkness, has been resurrected." Well, if that's true, then both versions state that Ganon is the old King of Darkness resurrected/reborn.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 April 2008 - 10:12 AM.

[LionHarted]

I do think that the Japanese version seems to make it a LOT more clear that the trident belonged to the ancient demon, and this demon was Ganon, which obviously emphasises a post-ALttP placement. The details seem as vague as ever though, but FSA wasn't exactly made with plot in mind.

Or post-LoZ.

*whistles and walks off*

[jacensolo06]

Yes, I too am confused by your translation of said line, Jumbie. What exactly is being reborn?

In the original Japanese the term "resurrected" is applied to the noun "demon".

Edited by jacensolo06, 17 April 2008 - 12:17 PM.

[Jumbie]

Resurrected was translated earlier by Prime Blue as "revived", wasn't it? So doesn't that still imply that someone was brought back to life in some way?

Yes, "revived" is an equally valid translation.

Could it mean Vaati was power-mad, but ultimately did not have enough power to stop Link? Or something...

Anyway, I noticed what you said about Vaati being the one who drained the power from Hyrule. I agree with you, but now I realize: Ganon couldn't do this. Vaati and Bellum could. Now, they are the same kind of demon, so that's not too surprising, but what it means is that this ability is probably exclusive to these demons in the Zelda series. That's pretty cool.

Oh, nice conclusions!

How confident are you of this? Wouldn't want to make conclusions and then find you've changed your mind.

Let's see. Previously I considered that "jaki" (written with different Kanji) means "evil spirit", but since the Kanji don't match, that cannot be.
邪 certainly means "evil", and 器 can mean "tool" or "vessel". But since there is no mention of a spirit after all, translating it as vessel wouldn't make sense. Also, one would identify a trident much rather as a tool then a vessel.

Are you sure that's a correct interpretation? Looking at the translation myself, it appears to say that the King of Darkness is the man who took the Trident (i.e. Ganondorf), and that the Trident is a demon's device that Ganondorf resurrected from ancient times. It doesn't appear to say that the demon itself was resurrected

That certainly would make sense and match the structure of the sentence much better! In fact, all it needs to work in Jumbie's current translation is an additional comma:

King of Darkness? The man who took the Trident, the evil device (ja-ki) of the demon, resurrected from ancient times!!

I didn't think an item can be revived. But it seems よみがえった can also be downplayed to "brought back", so I must acknowledge that possibility. It's sad when such ornate words boil down to something really simple, but that's Japanese for you...
Yes, the addition of a comma at that place is conceivable, but there's no way to tell if that is correct.

Yes, I too am confused by your translation of said line, Jumbie. What exactly is being reborn?

In the original Japanese the term "reborn" is applied to the noun "demon".

Unless you're a native speaker, I'd have to say, yes and no. The noun in question may be "the demon" alone, or rather the compounded noun "the demon's evil device". So it could either say "the revived evil device of the demon", or "the revived demon's evil device".
But as said, if you can prove this wrong, it will have been a gap in my experience with Japanese.

Also, have you translated the pedestal's words within the Pyramid? I've looked through my list and it's not there. I wouldn't mind seeing how the two quotations compare.

Right, I should finish that at last.

But while we're on the subject, your translation also means the only use of the word "Hyruleans" doesn't exist in Zelda canon. So Lexs discrepancy of the words "Hyrulians" and "Hyruleans" doesn't exist.

Mhm, like the Japanese say Hylia people for Hylians.

Edited by Jumbie, 17 April 2008 - 12:42 PM.

[LionHarted]

I think the point was clear enough with the NOA translation. But while we're on the subject, your translation also means the only use of the word "Hyruleans" doesn't exist in Zelda canon. So Lexs discrepancy of the words "Hyrulians" and "Hyruleans" doesn't exist.

I think you're just looking for excuses to say I'm wrong about things.

They DO exist--in the NoA translation. That's how they're referred to in my territories. And it's the translation used in my territory that I was drawing the discrepancy on. So far, I was right--"Hyrulean" was translated from "Hyrule's people."

What, does Japan not exist just because that's not what it's called in Japanese?

Edited by LionHarted, 17 April 2008 - 12:54 PM.

[jacensolo06]

Unless you're a native speaker, I'd have to say, yes and no. The noun in question may be "the demon" alone, or rather the compounded noun "the demon's evil device". So it could either say "the revived evil device of the demon", or "the revived demon's evil device".
But as said, if you can prove this wrong, it will have been a gap in my experience with Japanese.

My mistake. Now that I look at the sentence again, I can see that you're right. The wording in Japanese actually is fairly ambiguous as to which noun is being described by よみがえった. The ambiguity is unfortunate, but rather par for the course for Zelda quotes.

[Raien]

I didn't think an item can be revived. But it seems よみがえった can also be downplayed to "brought back", so I must acknowledge that possibility. It's sad when such ornate words boil down to something really simple, but that's Japanese for you... Yes, the addition of a comma at that place is conceivable, but there's no way to tell if that is correct.

Relics can be resurrected from the ground. Like the resurrection of the Titanic.

They DO exist--in the NoA translation. That's how they're referred to in my territories. And it's the translation used in my territory that I was drawing the discrepancy on. So far, I was right--"Hyrulean" was translated from "Hyrule's people."

What, does Japan not exist just because that's not what it's called in Japanese?

As I recall, your argument was that "Hyrulians" and "Hyruleans" deliberately represented two different groups of people in Hyrule, which proved that the people in TP's Hyrule were altogether different from FSA's Hyrule. Since the term "Hyruleans" has a more simplistic meaning of "Hyrule's people" in Japanese, the potential distinction between groups thus ceases to exist.

Edited by jhurvid, 17 April 2008 - 01:47 PM.