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#451 LionHarted

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 02:02 PM

As I recall, your argument was that "Hyrulians" and "Hyruleans" deliberately represented two different groups of people in Hyrule, which proved that the people in TP's Hyrule were altogether different from FSA's Hyrule. Since the term "Hyruleans" has a more simplistic meaning of "Hyrule's people" in Japanese, the potential distinction between groups thus ceases to exist.


Um... no?

I argued that "Hyruleans" refers to the people of Hyrule (which is what was just proved), and "Hyrulians" refers only to people with Hylian blood.

This seems to still be the case.

I don't know where you're getting your other idea about the distinction.

Edited by LionHarted, 17 April 2008 - 02:03 PM.


#452 Raien

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 02:03 PM

I argued that "Hyruleans" refers to the people of Hyrule (which is what was just proved), and "Hyrulians" refers only to people with Hylian blood.


Where's the proof that Hyrulians doesn't refer to Hyrule's people? And how do we define "Hyrule's people"? People living in Hyrule, or people descended from Hyrule?

Edited by jhurvid, 17 April 2008 - 02:04 PM.


#453 LionHarted

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 02:05 PM

Where's the proof that Hyrulians doesn't refer to Hyrule's people?


I don't know that it does, but every time I saw it used, it was used to refer to Hylians.

It could simply be that they changed the spelling, but I really can't say.

To your other question: people living in Hyrule.


EDIT: I've seen several sources report that Nintendo confirmed "Hyrulean" as the official spelling (I believe they did this when, at one point, they cleared up some pronunciation issues), and that previously fans had used "Hyrulian" and "Hyrulean" interchangeably. So "Hyrulian" may be a changed spelling or a misspelling, or it may be a new word. I'd like to believe the latter.

Edited by LionHarted, 17 April 2008 - 02:13 PM.


#454 Raien

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 02:13 PM

To your other question: people living in Hyrule.


It was a rhetorical question; it could mean either or even both together. The fact is that the basis for your argument lies in a one-letter difference between two words which are not referred to in the original game scripts. That's just not enough to justify a change of meaning; it's like arguing that the word "either" can have two different meanings because it can be pronounced in two different ways.

#455 LionHarted

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 02:16 PM

More like arguing the difference between "two" and "too."

Two denoting the number; too denoting an addition.

#456 Raien

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 02:19 PM

More like arguing the difference between "two" and "too."

Two denoting the number; too denoting an addition.


Except that "Two" and "Too" have established completely different meanings, whereas "Hyrulian" and "Hyrulean" have established almost identical meanings which, by your own admission, could indicate that they mean exactly the same thing.

PS: Ugh, sorry Jumbie for derailing the topic. I'll stop this now.

Edited by jhurvid, 17 April 2008 - 03:45 PM.


#457 Jumbie

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 04:23 PM

So, the Trident inscription. In the game it's written with Katakana, but I've transcribed it into Kanji and Hiragana to make it easier to understand where I'm coming from.

世界が欲しいか 力が欲しいか
Seek you the world? Seek you power?

Seek...you...the world? Seek you...power?

退屈な平和だと その魂が渇くならば
If peace is boring, if that soul thirsts

Does your...soul...despise peace and...thirst for...more?

破壊と征服をと その魂が叫ぶならば
If that soul cries for destruction and conquest

Does your soul...cry...for...destruction and...conquest?

お前に授けるよう 世界を亡ぼす 闇の力
You are granted, in order to ruin the world, the power of darkness

We...grant you...power to...ruin...the world. The power of...darkness.

欲望に溺れ 凡てを欲しがれ
Drown in desire and desire everything

- - -

暗黒から産み落とされし 魔のじゃき トライデント
Born from darkness, the demon's evil device, the trident

Evil...spirit of magic trident.

お前は 闇の王
You are the King of Darkness

You are?the?King of Darkness.


Notes:
- "That soul" means "your soul", of course.

- The line about drowning in desire is missing from the English text (parts of the other sentences fill that space).

- It's impossible to tell what is born from darkness. The line can either mean, "the evil device of the demon born from darkness", or "the demon's evil device born from darkness".
Moreover, the word for darkness here, 暗黒, is different from the one in the next line, 闇. The former is also found in FSA's Temple of Darkness, the latter is found in ALttP's Temple of Darkness and Dark World.

#458 Raien

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 04:35 PM

Thanks, Jumbie. Here are the two important lines from the translations you've given us.

King of Darkness… The man who took the Trident, the evil device (ja-ki) of the demon resurrected from ancient times!!

Born from darkness, the demon's evil device, the trident.


Notice that in both these lines, the game does not refer to the actual demon; only the device of the demon (the Trident). I think that we can come to the conclusion from this that the demon itself doesn't play a role in FSA's story. The demon just serves to explain where the Trident comes from.

Edited by jhurvid, 17 April 2008 - 04:46 PM.


#459 Hero of Legend

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 04:50 PM

Interesting; that line missing from the other versions is very reminiscent of something Miyamoto once said about Ganon's original design - he made him a pig because he thought pigs were greedy animals, and Ganon was supposed to represent greed and malice. The designers likely made a point with this statement, which explains why Ganondorf's appearance changed when he took the trident.

Notice that in both these lines, the game does not refer to the actual demon; only the device of the demon (the Trident). I think that we can come to the conclusion from this that the demon itself doesn't play a role in FSA's story. The demon just serves to explain where the Trident comes from.

Exactly. The identity of the demon itself is never specified. It could be Ganon, of course, but FSA could also work as a sort of alternate origin story. I see now no real reason why FSA can't come after TWW, but of course that's speculation at this point.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 April 2008 - 04:53 PM.


#460 Raien

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 04:55 PM

Of course, it is never explained where the inscription comes from either. Did the demon have followers (a Tribe of Evil)? The general ambiguity gives me the impression that we aren't meant to focus on the back story to the Trident; just accept that this is where Ganondorf got his evil power. I suspect that it doesn't have relevance to the timeline.

Edited by jhurvid, 17 April 2008 - 05:04 PM.


#461 Hero of Legend

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 05:08 PM

We know there was an evil tribe - the ancestors of the Zuna built the Pyramid (in the NoA version, I should say), and evidently worshipped the demon. I agree the trident and its origins do not in themselves matter to the timeline - this is the origin story of Ganon's trident. Yet, the fact that there are now two separate Ganondorfs does bear relevance to the timeline, for obvious reasons.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 April 2008 - 05:13 PM.


#462 Raien

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 05:15 PM

We know there was an evil tribe - the ancestors of the Zuna built the Pyramid (in the NoA version, I should say), and evidently worshipped the demon. I agree the trident and its origins do not in themselves matter to the timeline - this is the origin story of Ganon's trident. Yet, the fact that there are now two separate Ganons does bear relevance to the timeline, for obvious reasons.


The Zuna built the Pyramid, but then again, the Pyramid wasn't necessarily built for the purpose of holding the Trident. It's also a Gerudo tomb; a burial ground for ancient Gerudo warriors and a holy place to the current tribe. It might have been that the Zuna were called on to help seal the Trident within the Pyramid, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the Zuna worshipped the demon. It could even be that the Gerudo worshipped the demon.

Edited by jhurvid, 17 April 2008 - 05:16 PM.


#463 Fyxe

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 05:18 PM

I think it's hard to deny the fact that the 'demon's device' of the trident is a reference to ALttP (and there's lots of references to ALttP in FSA). That said, FSA is still extremely vague. Personally I still like to place it in the fairly comfortable post-ALttP area where the Oracles inhabit. If the Oracles can involve attempts to revive both the Dark World and Ganon, as does FSA, then I see no reason why they cannot occur in the same sort of post-ALttP area. But hey, FSA is so self-contained that it's hard to say.

#464 Hero of Legend

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 05:22 PM

Well, that?s all inconsequential to the point I was making - someone placed the trident there; they did not use it themselves, but were willing to grant the power to destroy the world to the man who wanted it. Sounds pretty evil-triby to me. Of course, it only makes sense to assume that it was the original builders who did it ? otherwise, why mention them? ? but as you yourself admitted, it?s not really important.

Fyxe; it could work the other way around as well; Ganon could've gotten his ALttP trident in FSA, though that theory isn't without its problems...

...And now we're getting of topic again.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 April 2008 - 05:27 PM.


#465 Raien

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 05:34 PM

The thing is, when I look at all the pyramids built in the desert, I realise that there is a productive relationship between the Gerudo and the Zuna. The Gerudo pay the Zuna to build their tombs. I don't think the Zuna tribe would be building pyramids for the Gerudo if they had evil power with a demon at their helm. But if the Gerudo were evil, they could force the Zuna to build their tomb and seal the Trident away. But maybe I'm over-speculating.

Neither the Gerudo or the Zuna are suggested to be evil in FSA; quite the contrary. But unlike the Zuna, the Gerudo do have a known history of evil magic. And then there's FSA Ganondorf.

Edited by jhurvid, 17 April 2008 - 05:38 PM.


#466 Hero of Legend

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 06:10 PM

Actually, I believe the pyramid and temple are "tombs" in the sense that they are places of death. The temple at least was built to protect the pyramid, yet it is still called a tomb. Of course, there are Gibdos there, but those could be people who were lost to the traps of the temple.

I see no reason to suspect an active relationship of that kind between the Gerudo and Zuna.

The Zuna are pretty useless, and frankly remind me of the Oocca; The Zuna ancestors were supposed to be "wise" but since the Zuna themselves can't even remember if the pyramid is a good or evil place, I'm not putting too much stock into what they say.

The Gerudo might be the evil tribe, but Ganondorf is not a good indication of their affinity in FSA.

Also, I suppose it is possible the Dark Tribe of the Mirror were the people who hid the trident, but again, that's just a guess.

#467 Raien

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 06:21 PM

The Gerudo refer to the Great Pyramid as sacred ground, so I don't think there's any doubt that the Pyramid was built for the burial of Gerudo warriors. Of course, if the Pyramid became sacred because of the Trident, then that would implicate them as the evil tribe.

But I don't think either the Gerudo or the Zuna that we see in FSA are accurate representations of their ancestors; I was only making the point that we at least know the Gerudo have a history associated with evil, that the Gerudo also worship the Pyramid, and that a recurring villain appears apparently out of nowhere (his heart appeared to corrupt for no reason).

The Zuna don't have pyramids to call their own, and nor do they show any any traits that we can associate with power. The word "wise" would suggest to the player that the Zuna's ancestors did not have evil hearts, whatever little knowledge the Zuna possess in the game. That's why I doubt they are the evil tribe.

Edited by jhurvid, 17 April 2008 - 06:22 PM.


#468 Jumbie

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 07:44 PM

Interesting; that line missing from the other versions is very reminiscent of something Miyamoto once said about Ganon's original design - he made him a pig because he thought pigs were greedy animals, and Ganon was supposed to represent greed and malice. The designers likely made a point with this statement, which explains why Ganondorf's appearance changed when he took the trident.

Ah good, that explains that!

The identity of the demon itself is never specified. It could be Ganon, of course, but FSA could also work as a sort of alternate origin story. I see now no real reason why FSA can't come after TWW, but of course that's speculation at this point.

After counsel with a friend, I now think that the weapon is not *of* one demon, but *for* demons, as in, a demonic weapon. So if it was the trident that was revived, and if it means demonic tool, that contains no more information than the pyramid legends gave us beforehand.

And I see no reason why FSA couldn't come before OoT. As we know, FSA never says the Gerudo Ganondorf is reincarnated.

It's also a Gerudo tomb; a burial ground for ancient Gerudo warriors

Where is that stated? That should be looked into.

Also, I suppose it is possible the Dark Tribe of the Mirror were the people who hid the trident, but again, that's just a guess.

I doubt the Clan of Darkness were the Zunas' ancestors, being sealed away while they invaded Hyrule...
At best, it's possible that the trident was their weapon, and the Zunas' ancestors enshrined it in the pyramid after their banishment.


Here are two more related translations:

ジャキ? 魔の邪器(じゃき) トライデント??
Ja-ki? Demon's evil device, the trident??

Evil spirit... Spirit of magic? Trident?

武器の形をした このくぼみ?。
This indentation is in the shape of a weapon?

This indentation is in the shape of a weapon.

ここから そのトライデントを 手に入れた者が ?もしや ガノンドロフ??!
Don't tell me the person who took this trident from here? was Ganondorf??!

Do you think the person who took this trident was... Ganondorf?!?

グフーとは またちがう 闇の王?!!
The King of Darkness is not Gufuu?!!

The King of Darkness is not Vaati?

そ?、そんな おそろしい男が、いったい今 このハイラルのどこで 何をしていると言うの?!
S?such a terrible man is actually now somewhere in Hyrule doing something?!

Does this mean this wicked man is somewhere in Hyrule plotting even now?

?リンク! 事態は 私たちが考えていた以上に しんこくです! 先を急ぎましょう!
?Link! The situation is even more serious than we thought! We must hurry!

Link! The situation is even more desperate than I believed! We must hurry!


Note:
- The Kanji for "weapon" include that for "device", so it's safe to say the trident is a demon's weapon (as opposed to vessel).

ピラミッドのひみつを しりたいズナか?
Do you want to know the secret of the pyramid, zuna?

Do you want to know the secret of the pyramid?

オイラたちは でんせつのじだいから ピラミッドのはなしを かたりついできたズナ!
From the era of legend, we have handed down talk of the pyramid, zuna!

When we're young, we're told all the legends of the pyramid!

ピラミッドには おそろしい いいつたえが あるズナよ?。
There's a dreadful tale about the pyramid, zuna?!

There are many frightening tales about the pyramid.

わるーいちからが あるとか ないとか?。
An eeevil force is there - or is it not??

They say there's an evil force... No, wait... They say there's no evil force.

?んー どっちだったかナ?
?Hmm, which one was it?

Wait...which one was it? Evil force or no evil force?


Hm, what a curious difference there is... Although it's such an easy sentence?!

#469 Raien

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 08:04 PM

After counsel with a friend, I now think that the weapon is not *of* one demon, but *for* demons, as in, a demonic weapon. So if it was the trident that was revived, and if it means demonic tool, that contains no more information than the pyramid legends gave us beforehand.


That makes a lot of sense. Ganon takes the Trident and becomes a demon, does he not? With this, we can explain the exact nature of his transformation.


Where is that stated? That should be looked into.


It isn't actually stated, but it's clearly implied by two things:

1) Pyramids are by definition tombs of the deceased.
2) The Gerudo worship the Great Pyramid, which means that what lies inside of the pyramid must be connected to their religion.

The pyramid is sacred
to our people.

To have a criminal such as
him enter... His presence
stains its holy ground.


If the only significance that the Pyramid holds is the Trident, then that would strongly suggest that the Gerudo once knew of or possessed the Trident. There would be no other reason for the Pyramid to be significant to their culture.

Edited by jhurvid, 17 April 2008 - 11:56 PM.


#470 Impossible

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 01:12 AM

There's absolutely no way that the Japanese distinguishes between Hyrulian and Hyrulean, it's a useless point. They're both pronounced the same, and are purely alternate spellings with an English alphabet. Suggesting a difference is nonsensical. This has to be one of the worst attempts Lex has made at a semantics argument. There's just no way the meaning is different. This shouldn't even be happening in this topic.

EDIT: I've seen several sources report that Nintendo confirmed "Hyrulean" as the official spelling (I believe they did this when, at one point, they cleared up some pronunciation issues), and that previously fans had used "Hyrulian" and "Hyrulean" interchangeably. So "Hyrulian" may be a changed spelling or a misspelling, or it may be a new word. I'd like to believe the latter.


Sure, just like people have seen Bill Trinen call the Legend of the Fairy canon. Hyrulian, not Hyrulean, is in TP, so while Hyrulean may have been in use in 2004, Hyrulian is the official spelling as of 2006.

Let's see. Previously I considered that "jaki" (written with different Kanji) means "evil spirit", but since the Kanji don't match, that cannot be.
邪 certainly means "evil", and 器 can mean "tool" or "vessel". But since there is no mention of a spirit after all, translating it as vessel wouldn't make sense. Also, one would identify a trident much rather as a tool then a vessel.


Could it mean both? Maybe even as a play on words? It's the evil demon of the "device" (trident) revived, or the trident's evil demon, or something like that. In any case, it still seems like there would be some kind of ancient demon... Saying that the trident just turned Ganon into a demon doesn't explain how it was something ancient that was "revived". This is confusing.

#471 Raien

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 05:08 AM

Could it mean both? Maybe even as a play on words? It's the evil demon of the "device" (trident) revived, or the trident's evil demon, or something like that. In any case, it still seems like there would be some kind of ancient demon... Saying that the trident just turned Ganon into a demon doesn't explain how it was something ancient that was "revived". This is confusing.


Revival or resurrection does not need to be spiritual; it could be said that the Titantic was resurrected from the bottom of the ocean (although whether it actually was or not is another matter altogether). Seeing as how the Trident had been lying in the Pyramid since ancient times, it's not at all strange to suggest that it was being revived.

And then ask yourself, when has a second demon ever been suggested to exist in FSA or play a part in FSA's story. It appears that the only justification is one ambiguous quote that could have a simpler meaning.

And you appear to have missed one of Jumbie's later comments. He suggests that "a demon's device" is not referring to a literal demon, but simply refers to the item being demonic; an item to be wielded by demons. This makes sense because Ganon became a demon when he wielded the Trident. So what we have as a result is no back story to the Trident, but a better description of how it change Ganon.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 April 2008 - 05:29 AM.


#472 Hero of Legend

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 05:25 AM

Or the trident was revived in the same way the Master Sword was when Link restored it's powers in TWW.

#473 Impossible

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 06:32 AM

And you appear to have missed one of Jumbie's later comments. He suggests that "a demon's device" is not referring to a literal demon, but simply refers to the item being demonic; an item to be wielded by demons. This makes sense because Ganon became a demon when he wielded the Trident. So what we have as a result is no back story to the Trident, but a better description of how it change Ganon.


Can we be sure about that interpretation, though? It doesn't seem like the translation rules out the possibility of a demon from ancient times being the source of the power in the trident. That would explain why Ganon is transformed by it.

#474 Raien

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 07:08 AM

Can we be sure about that interpretation, though? It doesn't seem like the translation rules out the possibility of a demon from ancient times being the source of the power in the trident. That would explain why Ganon is transformed by it.


The translation makes no direct reference to a demon, only a demon's device (or the device of a demon). You might argue that the evidence doesn't rule out the possibility of a demon within the Trident, but neither does it actively support the notion that there is a demon within the Trident. As far as we are told directly, the Trident is an evil weapon and Ganondorf became the Demon King of Darkness by wielding it.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 April 2008 - 07:24 AM.


#475 LionHarted

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 08:26 AM

To Impossible: Ganon becomes the Evil King when he takes the Triforce of Power in OoT, but there's definitely not a demon's spirit inhabiting it. At least, not probably.

My question is, if the use of possessive isn't supposed to denote an actual demon, why use it instead of simply using an adjective term synonymous to evil (i.e., a term used for the "power of darkness" or "demonic power" from other games)?

And, no, this isn't a semantics argument; it's a question of context. It looks like NoA substituted "demon" with "evil spirit," and decided that it was the evil spirit that was being resurrected. Which, as Jumbie has said, is a perfectly acceptable interpretation/translation.

I'm quite curious, though.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 April 2008 - 08:33 AM.


#476 Raien

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 12:01 PM

Don't get me wrong. I'm quite happy to accept that the Trident was once wielded by an ancient demon. I just don't accept that there is a demon within the Trident that is the source of the Trident's power. I never have been able to accept it and I don't think I ever will.

#477 LionHarted

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 02:10 PM

And I've never been able to accept that there is a Dark Tribe literally inside a Mirror that is the source of its power...

Gee, isn't that funny? =]

#478 Raien

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 03:16 PM

And I've never been able to accept that there is a Dark Tribe literally inside a Mirror that is the source of its power...

Gee, isn't that funny? =]


You're judging me by Impossible's argument again. I haven't actually argued against the belief that the Dark Mirror is the Twilight Mirror; I think it's valid reasoning.

#479 LionHarted

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 03:49 PM

You're judging me by Impossible's argument again. I haven't actually argued against the belief that the Dark Mirror is the Twilight Mirror; I think it's valid reasoning.


Actually, my comment was not made in reference to the Twilight Mirror, but in reference to your spiel that the Dark Tribe is what makes the Mirror dark. (Do you stand by that anymore, even?)

#480 Jumbie

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 04:09 PM

My question is, if the use of possessive isn't supposed to denote an actual demon, why use it instead of simply using an adjective term synonymous to evil (i.e., a term used for the "power of darkness" or "demonic power" from other games)?

As said: to make clear that the trident is what turned Ganondorf into the demon he is - the Maou of Darkness. If you wish to become the king of demons, take up the tool of demons. That's what the inscription means to say.

An even simpler explanation is that there is no Japanese adjective for "demonic"; that needs to be said via the noun "demon" + possessive (much like it's the case with "dark", which most often is expressed by saying "...of darkness").

And, no, this isn't a semantics argument; it's a question of context. It looks like NoA substituted "demon" with "evil spirit," and decided that it was the evil spirit that was being resurrected. Which, as Jumbie has said, is a perfectly acceptable interpretation/translation.

Right. Just that it seems unlikely (because irrelevant to both FSA and the timeline) that another ancient demon existed.




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