220 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

the map of OoT is EXACTLY the same as the one in ALttP!

No it's not.

-Knights fighting off Ganon and getting killed off in the process

does fit literal ALttP backstory, yes.

Do we actually have any idea what the knights were fighting in FSA? Could have been killed by Vaati, surely?

Ganon is Ganon(except for TP)

Uh, what?

Now my turn to counter Person's post.

-Origins of Ganon

It doesn't. Ganon has no origin in FSA. He's an ancient demon reborn. That's not an origin, that's a reappearance.

-Ganondorf becoming Ganon and getting sealed

As people have said, in the Four Sword.

-Sacred Realm

Wrong, Dark World.

-A fight with Ganon in which he is sealed

Well done, you just repeated yourself, have a cookie.

-Knights fighting off Ganon and getting killed off in the process

I refer to the point I made at the start of this post.

-Seven sages sealing away Ganon

You REALLY like repeating yourself. Actually they're Maidens. Why can't people get this right? Oh yeah, they're idiots.

-A boy who inherits the jewels of the knights fighting off Ganon

Nothing to do with the IW.

-The origins of Ganon's trident

It's not the origin at all. It's an appearance of the trident. And again, nothing to do with the IW.

-A reason why Ganon has the Four Sword in ALttP

Nothing to do with the IW though. And it's just one possible explanation.

-Ganon who looks identical to his ALttP form

Style similarity.

-Shared geographical locations with ALttP

Style similarity.

-A possible origins for the portals to the Dark World

In the IW, it's said that Ganon and his followers discovered a way into the Sacred Realm. The portals are all across the world in ALttP and FSA, no origin is given.

-A possible origin for the moon pearls

No origin is given for them either.

Enough?

Not at all.

Edited by Fyxe, 25 July 2007 - 09:53 AM.

[CID Farwin]

No it's not.

Alright, but it's about 90% Identical. That's more than you can say for any other game.

Uh, what?

It means In ALttP and OoT they look different, but that's just style change; They're the same. In TP Ganon is a pig on four legs, not the same.

And thank you, Fyxe, for coming up with the arguments that escaped me.

Edited by CID Farwin, 25 July 2007 - 12:39 PM.

[LionHarted]

Do we actually have any idea what the knights were fighting in FSA? Could have been killed by Vaati, surely?

They specifically say that it's not Vaati, but someone else with a mighty force.

-Origins of Ganon

It doesn't. Ganon has no origin in FSA. He's an ancient demon reborn. That's not an origin, that's a reappearance.

I agree that "reborn" denotes the reappearance. But if Ganon himself is not being reborn, but is rather the reincarnation of ANOTHER demon, then it could be counted as an origin.

[Person]

-Ahem...
I was talking about the Dark World, which is a transformed Sacred Realm. I was not referring to World 5, which is actually the "World of Darkness," or Ganon's power base in the Light World. If you deny that the Dark World and Sacred Realm are the same, you obviously have not played ALttP.

Now as for the Trident, I interpret that to be an origin story, even though some other people deny the obvious and try to say that it's an "appearance." Right.

Also, FSA does count as an origin for Ganon. It's his reincarnation after bein killed in either TWW or TP, depending on which timeline you put it in. I reject the theory that Ganon is the reincarnation of another demon, because he'd referred to as a demon in TP and OoT.

And you can't possibly deny that the FSA map and ALttP map are almost identical, while the OoT map is so different you have to turn it on its side to fudge the locations.

And yes, Ganon was ealed inside the Four Sword. But who's to say that the Four Sword was then put inside the Sacred Realm? In ALttP, Ganon has the Four Sword inside the Pyramid of Power.

And as for the maidens, I interpret those to be sages, because they seal Ganon.

And the knights are actually present, and are killed by Ganon. Just like the IW story.

[Fyxe]

I agree that "reborn" denotes the reappearance. But if Ganon himself is not being reborn, but is rather the reincarnation of ANOTHER demon, then it could be counted as an origin.

Given that the only 'demon' in the series is Ganon, who is referred to even as the Demon King, I think it's safe to assume that the ancient demon being reborn is the same ancient demon that was to be reborn in the Oracle games and in Zelda II.

-Ahem...
I was talking about the Dark World, which is a transformed Sacred Realm. I was not referring to World 5, which is actually the "World of Darkness," or Ganon's power base in the Light World. If you deny that the Dark World and Sacred Realm are the same, you obviously have not played ALttP.

They're not the same though. The Sacred Realm can change into the Dark World and visa-versa, but they're effectively two different worlds. The Sacred Realm and the Triforce are never mentioned in FSA, and the reappearance of the Dark World means nothing - it exists during the Oracle games and is even hinted at back in Zelda II.

Now as for the Trident, I interpret that to be an origin story, even though some other people deny the obvious and try to say that it's an "appearance." Right.

Also, FSA does count as an origin for Ganon. It's his reincarnation after bein killed in either TWW or TP, depending on which timeline you put it in. I reject the theory that Ganon is the reincarnation of another demon, because he'd referred to as a demon in TP and OoT.

Ok, is it just me or do these statements not work together? If you believe it's a reincarnation, then surely the logical reasoning for the trident turning Ganondorf into Ganon is because it's Ganon's trident? Makes damn perfect sense to me, especially because it's heavily implied.

And yes, Ganon was ealed inside the Four Sword. But who's to say that the Four Sword was then put inside the Sacred Realm? In ALttP, Ganon has the Four Sword inside the Pyramid of Power.

Why the hell would the send the evil incarnation of darkness into the Sacred Realm to sit quite happily with the Triforce? Especially after they already sealed him in a magical sword and reinforced the seal? Makes no logical sense whatsoever.

And as for the maidens, I interpret those to be sages, because they seal Ganon.

Then you're wrong. The definition of a 'sage' does not involve being able to seal demons.

And the knights are actually present, and are killed by Ganon. Just like the IW story.

They weren't killed in a big battle protecting the Sages, because there's no Sages, and they were killed individually protecting their respective stones. And there's only four of them.

[CID Farwin]

Now as for the Trident, I interpret that to be an origin story, even though some other people deny the obvious and try to say that it's an "appearance." Right.

Ganondorf got it from a pyramid. That doesn't say it's origins, because it existed before it was put into the pyramid.

Also, FSA does count as an origin for Ganon. It's his reincarnation after bein killed in either TWW or TP, depending on which timeline you put it in. I reject the theory that Ganon is the reincarnation of another demon, because he'd referred to as a demon in TP and OoT.

Because Ganondorf touching the Trident to become Ganon is a one-time occurence. And we've only had Ganondorf transform once if FSA goes after the adult ending of OoT. I've got to hand it to you; your logic is truly one of a kind.

And you can't possibly deny that the FSA map and ALttP map are almost identical, while the OoT map is so different you have to turn it on its side to fudge the locations.

*goes off ranting and half-swearing for 20 minutes*
When you turn the OoT map it matches exactly with maybe 3 exceptions. And it's not like some random turning either, because as I've stated in previous threads, THERE'S A FREAKIN' ARROW POINTING THAT WAY! If you match that up with ALttP's map, then they are pretty darn close to the same.

FSA map isn't nearly as accurate. It has no Lake Hylia, but it does have an Ice palace. Which is in ALttP's dark world. Which suggests a merging of the two worlds after ALttP.

All post-ALttP maps of Hyrule somewhat match up if you align them to death mountain.

[Showsni]

I don't think I'll be able to change your mind, LionHarted, so I'm going to stop arguing with you. We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't personally think IW and ALtttP refer to seperate Ganons; but if you want to argue that way, fine.

I also don't think FSA is the IW. So I'll just argue against a few random points above.

You REALLY like repeating yourself. Actually they're Maidens. Why can't people get this right? Oh yeah, they're idiots.

Actually, so are Saria, Zelda, Nabooru and Ruto. Clearly Nintendo through out the traditional definition of sage after OoT.

*goes off ranting and half-swearing for 20 minutes*
When you turn the OoT map it matches exactly with maybe 3 exceptions. And it's not like some random turning either, because as I've stated in previous threads, THERE'S A FREAKIN' ARROW POINTING THAT WAY! If you match that up with ALttP's map, then they are pretty darn close to the same.

FSA map isn't nearly as accurate. It has no Lake Hylia, but it does have an Ice palace. Which is in ALttP's dark world. Which suggests a merging of the two worlds after ALttP.

All post-ALttP maps of Hyrule somewhat match up if you align them to death mountain.

Geography arguments? There's really not much point considering it.

[Person]

FSA shows an origin for Ganon. The Tridentis used by him in ALttP, OoX, and is shown in the official arts for LoZ. FSA shows the first time he got it. The Trident was put there bey the makers of the Pyramid, not Ganon.

FSA map isn't nearly as accurate. It has no Lake Hylia, but it does have an Ice palace. Which is in ALttP's dark world. Which suggests a merging of the two worlds after ALttP.

No Lake Hylia? Except that the FIRST LEVEL OF THE GAME IS IN LAKE HYLIA?? Also, would it not be logical to assume that the Dark World Ice Palace is a mirror of the Light World one? After all, we have the Lost Woods and Death Mountain in both worlds. We also have no reason to beleive that the "worlds merged" as you say. Especially since we are told that the Dark World would pass away after ALttP. Besides, the Lost Woods are in the wrong spot in the ALttP map.

We also have the Dark World in FSA, but it isn't corrupted yet, it's merely a mirror world. Seems to suggest an FSA-ALttP placement, as does the PotFS.

[Fyxe]

You REALLY like repeating yourself. Actually they're Maidens. Why can't people get this right? Oh yeah, they're idiots.

Actually, so are Saria, Zelda, Nabooru and Ruto. Clearly Nintendo through out the traditional definition of sage after OoT.

Sage doesn't force masculinity on the bearer of the title, actually, despite western notions that it does. In Japan it doesn't. Men and woman can be Sages, it makes no difference.

Maidens are something different, the intention is that they play a similar role to Shrine Maidens, who, while they have a similar role to a 'Sage', there are distinct differences. It's a Shinto thing.

Person, you seem to be playing a silly 'chicken and egg' game with everything. You seem convinced that FSA is the origin for everything despite the fact that there's no evidence for such a thing.

Edited by Fyxe, 25 July 2007 - 05:57 PM.

[Arturo]

FSA shows an origin for Ganon. The Tridentis used by him in ALttP, OoX, and is shown in the official arts for LoZ. FSA shows the first time he got it. The Trident was put there bey the makers of the Pyramid, not Ganon.

ç
Or it could show how the SW-ALttP Ganon was reincarnated. Because FSA is not the origin of Ganon, it's the merging of the spirit of teh trident and Ganondorf, resulting the rebirth of Ganon.

[CID Farwin]

FSA shows an origin for Ganon.

And that origin is that he's back..

I reject the theory that Ganon is the reincarnation of another demon, because he'd referred to as a demon in TP and OoT.

So Ganon is the "ancient demon," but this is the first time we see Ganon?

FSA shows the first time he got it. The Trident was put there bey the makers of the Pyramid, not Ganon.

Yes, put there by the makers of the pyramid, but it's still ganon's.

Please for the sake of my sanity START MAKING SENSE!

[EDIT]
Holy crap it took me forever to find these. I don't know how to make them smaller, though, can anyone help?


Now how are these two remotely the same? or at least more than these two?

Edited by CID Farwin, 25 July 2007 - 07:03 PM.

[Person]

Okay here's my list of evidences for a FSA-ALttP connection:

-Palace of the Four Sword
-Moon Pearls are plentiful, in ALttP, there's only one left.
-Ganon's reborn form gets the trident for the first time. In all of the 2D games, he has it. In the 3D games, he does not (Phantom Ganon notwithstanding).
-Features the Knights of Hyrule dying out. In ALttP, Link is the last of their bloodline.
-Features the Dark World. ALttP says that the Dark World will disappear after Ganon dies.
-Ganon is an ancient demon reborn. He is the demon king in the 3D games, and he dies in TWW and TP. Since Ganon is reborn in FSA, and this is his first 2D appearance, it is therefore safe to say that this is the first appearance of Blue Pig Ganon.
-The Trident has been placed in the Pyramid by its builders, and does not appear to have been owned by Ganon (the inscription is ambiguous as to whether the Spirit of the Trident is the King of Darkness or the bearer of the Trident is, and I interpret it to be the latter).

Now as to the maps: Both the ALttP map and the OoT map are similar. Both the ALttP map and the FSA map are similar. The FSA map has the Eastern Palace, Lost Woods in the same spot, and the desert in the same spot. Only Lake Hylia is different. Frozen Hyrule was obviously off the ALttP map.

[MikePetersSucks]

-Palace of the Four Sword

That's more of an FS-LTTP connection, and even then there's no necessary plot relevance.

-Moon Pearls are plentiful, in ALttP, there's only one left.

And they also have totally different powers. What's your point? Shit gets recycled all the time.

-Ganon's reborn form gets the trident for the first time. In all of the 2D games, he has it. In the 3D games, he does not (Phantom Ganon notwithstanding).

Depends on how you order the games.

-Features the Knights of Hyrule dying out. In ALttP, Link is the last of their bloodline.

The Knights of Hyrule in FSA weren't dying to help the Sages seal up the Sacred Realm, and FSA Link doesn't seem to be related to them AT ALL. Plus something like "The Knights of Hyrule being corrupted into horrible monsters" would probably get into the legend.

-Features the Dark World. ALttP says that the Dark World will disappear after Ganon dies.

The name "Dark World" is also given to a patch of Hyrule. For all we know, FSA's Dark World might be an entirely different dimension, and it can't really be the LTTP Dark World because FSA Ganon doesn't have the Triforce.

-Ganon is an ancient demon reborn. He is the demon king in the 3D games, and he dies in TWW and TP. Since Ganon is reborn in FSA, and this is his first 2D appearance, it is therefore safe to say that this is the first appearance of Blue Pig Ganon.

Uh, what about the final fight in OOT? Anyway, no.

-The Trident has been placed in the Pyramid by its builders, and does not appear to have been owned by Ganon (the inscription is ambiguous as to whether the Spirit of the Trident is the King of Darkness or the bearer of the Trident is, and I interpret it to be the latter).

That doesn't prove anything.

[Person]

I'm not saying that FSA is the IW story exactly, but I am just saying that it comes before ALttP. As for the Moon Pearls, they act in a similar manner to ALttP. In FSA, you use them to open portals, and in ALttP, you use it to prevent transformation. While these powers may not seem similar, they both interact with the dark world. As for the "Dark World" in the northwest, that is more accurately a "World of Darkness" whereas the Dark World uses the same Japanese words as ALttP.

That's more of an FS-LTTP connection, and even then there's no necessary plot relevance.

And FSA comes right after FS. Therefore, the order would go: FS-FSA-ALttP. This order is in both of our timelines, so why are we arguing about it, MPS?

As for pig Ganon, I was referring to the "old-school" blue pig that was used in LoZ and ALttP. OoT and TP pig Ganons look totally different, and aren't connected to the Trident in any way.

The Knights are killed by Ganon, and the sages seal him up in the end. The legend took these two plot points and made them more dramatic with the Knights dying after a horrible battle, whereas in reality they were corrupted and then killed. But it's still more than OoT has to offer in that regard.

[CID Farwin]

And FSA comes right after FS. Therefore, the order would go: FS-FSA-ALttP. This order is in both of our timelines, so why are we arguing about it, MPS?

I can't speak for MPS, but the reason I'm arguing so hard is because you lack actual facts to support your theory which you defend with so much energy.

As for pig Ganon, I was referring to the "old-school" blue pig that was used in LoZ and ALttP. OoT and TP pig Ganons look totally different, and aren't connected to the Trident in any way.

TP Ganon differs because he's a pig, not a pig-man. He's a four-legged beast to counteract Link.
OoT Ganon, while without the Trident, and while looking different, he's still the same Ganon.

The character designer(from what I remember, I don't have quotes on hand like those resourseful people) said both that OoT was supposed to be the IW, and that they tried to keep Ganon's "pigness." This says to me that they intended him to be the same, even though he might look different.

[Showsni]

You REALLY like repeating yourself. Actually they're Maidens. Why can't people get this right? Oh yeah, they're idiots.

Actually, so are Saria, Zelda, Nabooru and Ruto. Clearly Nintendo through out the traditional definition of sage after OoT.

Sage doesn't force masculinity on the bearer of the title, actually, despite western notions that it does. In Japan it doesn't. Men and woman can be Sages, it makes no difference.

Maidens are something different, the intention is that they play a similar role to Shrine Maidens, who, while they have a similar role to a 'Sage', there are distinct differences. It's a Shinto thing.

I never said sage does force a gender - it definitely doesn't. Maiden does, of course. Using OoT's definition of sage, though, we can easily apply it to the FSA and ALttP maidens.

[Person]

I have already listed my evidences in a previous post, and I think that the Knights, Trident, and the Palace of the Four Sword suggest an FSA-ALttP order.

However, the character designer used the pig form as an homage. It was a beast with the feeling of a pig, but not a pig. FSA is definitely a bipedal pig.

[MikePetersSucks]

And FSA comes right after FS. Therefore, the order would go: FS-FSA-ALttP. This order is in both of our timelines, so why are we arguing about it, MPS?

Because I don't hold that the Palace of Four Sword nessessarily has canon existence or that FSA has shit to do with the IW.

[Person]

Palcae of the Four Sword only contradicts canon if you think that the secret ending happens after Link defeats Ganon. Since the ending only shows Dark World bosses and dungeons, I think it happens right after Link goes to the Dark World. That way, it doesn't really contradict anything. I really don't think that we can write it off as non-canon, because it connects the FS series to ALttP.

[MikePetersSucks]

Just because it doesn't contradict canon doesn't mean it's not non-canon. If you hold Palace of the Four Sword to be canon, then so is Shadow Battle and Tetra Trackers.

[Person]

Shadow Battle has no relevance to the storyline, but Navi Trackers contradicts canon by bringing the King of Red Lions back from the dead. Besides, PotFS was included as a dungeon inside ALttP, whereas NT and SB were bonus games.

[Fyxe]

Navi Trackers may have had a canon reason for 'bringing the King of Red Lions back from the dead', such as the king maybe retaining his soul within the boat. Without knowing the dialogue, we cannot claim that it breaks canon or not.

Shadow Battle doesn't break canon anyway, it's just Shadow Links fighting each other.

[Person]

I really don't think the king's soul was inside the boat, though it seems possible. In the ending, the boat seems hollow, like it's lost its enchantment. Plus, it doesn't return in PH, so I think the intention is that he's dead. But yeah, SB is just the Links getting mad and fighting each other.

Edited by Person, 27 July 2007 - 05:59 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The point is that just because it's there doesn't mean diddly poop. Loads of people argue that stuff such as the Master Sword and the Legend of the Fairy are Easter Eggs, so why not the Palace of the Four Sword? If you're gonna accept that, you have to accept ALL bonuses as canon, which means that your personal theory wouldn't be able to work.

[CID Farwin]

However, the character designer used the pig form as an homage. It was a beast with the feeling of a pig, but not a pig. FSA is definitely a bipedal pig.

Homage...Like the Master Sword being in the forest is a definite homage.

[Person]

No. The Master Sword in the forest was not a homage. If ti was an homage, why would they go to desperate lengths to show that the forest used to be the Temple of Time? This indicates that the resting place of the Master Sword stays constant from TP to ALttP.

Now as for the "Easter Egg" argument:
Not all bonuses are easter eggs. By your logic, the Biggoron Sword is non-canon, then. Simply because it has no storyline relevance doesn't mean it's non-canon. In PotFS, we have the Four Sword, which is a significant canon object in the FS saga. In OoX, we have the Master Sword, which is the most important canon sword in the entire series. I'm just not content with writing those off as Easter Eggs like Legend of the Fairy or the Mario portraits in OoT.

[CID Farwin]

Homage =/= non-canon. I suppose that the fact that there's a shot in TP of the Master Sword that looks almost exactly like my old desktop background is a convenient coincidence.

[Person]

Oh. That's what you meant. Yeah. It's both a canon explanation for why the MS is in the Lost Woods and an homage to ALttP. Sorry I misunderstood you.

[LionHarted]

No. The Master Sword in the forest was not a homage. If ti was an homage, why would they go to desperate lengths to show that the forest used to be the Temple of Time? This indicates that the resting place of the Master Sword stays constant from TP to ALttP.

Right. Because the TWW castle appearing in FSA doesn't definitely suggest that Hyrule wasn't destroyed. =/

[Person]

Oh, you mean a castle that was artistically inspired by the TWW castle? Art style proves absolutely nothing. You really think that the TWW castle survived being destroyed by tons of water being pured down on it in TWW?