220 replies to this topic

[Person]

Actually, they said that the story was "based on the Imprisoning War." In that sense, it's the basis of the legend, but not the whole thing.

[CID Farwin]

So then it should have that disclaimer.

[Person]

Yeah. I guess so. The developers even admitted that they took liberties with the story, didn't they?

[LionHarted]

This was due, I always assumed, to the seal.

Oh, I agree, here.

I also note the fact that it says he couldn't "figure out" how to return; not that he was "unable."

Actually, they said that the story was "based on the Imprisoning War."

Actually, they said "a name from the Imprisoning War era is [the name of?] a town later" (referring to the sage names between OoT and AoL).

Edited by LionHarted, 17 July 2007 - 11:32 PM.

[Person]

The "couldn't figure out" kind of indicates that he was unable. It wasn't until ALttP that he figured out that he needed to drain the maidens' power in order to open the seal.

[Fyxe]

He didn't 'drain their power', he sacrificed them by sending them to the Dark World.

[Person]

Okay, then. But they didn't die.

[LionHarted]

Notably, he never used the power of the sages to escape the OoT seal pre-TWW. He attacked the sages after escaping.

So how did TWW Ganon escape?

[MikePetersSucks]

Indeed. I, for one, would have expected them not to maintain that the Triforce was still at rest in the Sacred Realm from the creation.

Yet they did.

Check and mate.

ALttP itself says that Ganon could never figure out how to get out of the Sacred Realm after he entered, in which case a seal, I imagine, would be superfluous.

The Intro also describes how the Sages sealed all paths to the Sacred Realm, thus trapping Ganon there, and there's shitloads of dialogue about how Agahnim is sacrificing Maidens to undo the seal, etcetera. Seriously, you're just arguing over one of the most key plotpoints in the game.

So there's no split timeline? (contradicts plethora of things spoken of/seen in TWW/MM)

I never took the Legend of the Fairy seriously to begin with. Even so, it could theoretically be possible for Tingle of Termina to find himself in the Adult Timeline, or something.

Okay, then. But they didn't die.

That's debatable.

Notably, he never used the power of the sages to escape the OoT seal pre-TWW. He attacked the sages after escaping.

So how did TWW Ganon escape?

He attacked the Sages that guarded the Master Sword when he got out, which seem to be a separate set of Sages. For all we know, he had minions sacrifice the set of Sages that sealed him up, or something. Or maybe the door was opened when a certain dipshit King decided to move the Master Sword to his castle. (Which would explain why the Goddesses cursed him to wander the seas to look for a hero. Ooooh, that'd be a pretty neat fanfiction.)

[Showsni]

If we believe him on everything, then the timeline goes OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP with LA going anywhere. Things change.

Not that it's relevant, but I personally don't buy the authenticy of that old interview. Miyamoto isn't stupid. I figure either he or a translator misunderstood something, or the interview was just not taken down correctly.

He might not be stupid, but he doesn't care about the timeline. Pretty evident from these interviews, both about TWW:

Q: I think I'm right in saying the new Zelda takes place before the other Zelda games, right?

Miyamoto: I'm not that deeply involved in the Zelda project, but if that is actually the case we have decided that the setting for the game will be near the beginning.

NP: Where does the latest Zelda game fall into the series' mythology? Early in the series or after Majora's Mask?

Miyamoto: This is the very first Zelda story. If all we ever did was try to continue the story, we'd lose some of the interest. It's fun to jump back and forth.

He's so uninvolved that he agrees Wind Waker comes before OoT.

Anyway, the IW=OoT quote in question is:

This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."

(by the character designer)

"Secret" recognition? Well, they're hardly advertising this as being the IW out in the open. And from the same interview, we learn "The whole time I wanted to know what Mr. Miyamoto thought, but in the end, I realized that Mr. Miyamoto didn't have an opinion on the matter, so I decided to do it the way I wanted." referring to Ganondorf's appearance + personality. We also learn that Christopher Lambert was the model for Ganondorf... And, the script director's interview:

Though in this game Zelda is now included in the Seven Sages, the other six have the names of the town names from the Disk System edition "The Adventure of Link."

In the SNES edition game, the story "Long ago, there was a war called the Imprisoning War" was passed along. A name in the Imprisoning War era is the name of a Town later. They were like "pseudo-secrets." We wanted to throw these out through the entirety of the game. That thing from then is now this.

Tarin and Marin, a father and girl who appeared in "Link's Awakening" (GB) were used as the base for a different parent and child who comes out in this game. These are the things that when they are seen by a person who has played Zelda before they will understand. If people begin to think "Do you think that this could be that thing from then?" then I will be happy.

makes it clear that he's talking about "Easter Egg" appearances from other games, mentioning the names of the sages coming from AoL and Malon and Talon being based on LA.

So when OoT was made it was based on the IW, at least, taking elements (like Ganon's piggishness) from it.

The man who wrote the story is the only person who can make perfectly true statements about the intent of the story. As such, A2 is as canon as you can possibly get. If you're going to argue that the story writer was wrong about his own story, then I really don't see how any developer statement can be true.

You mean, the character designer. And I didn't say that OoT isn't based on IW. Look at all the elements they've copied; it's clearly borrowed a lot from IW.

B1 is non-existent. Which contradictions? Why couldn't any of the things that are missing from the OoT story have happened in the seven years Link was away?

Seriously? You believe there are no canon contradictions if you put OoT as the IW? Well, you're wrong. Do you really want me to go through them all? There are quite a lot.

B2 assumes that the relationship between ALttP and the IW is absolute. If OoT is the IW, and other games force OoT not to be directly related to ALttP, then one would think the default would be to change the relationship between the IW and ALttP, that relationship being the more archaic and never actually established outside of a lack of an alternative (until TWW forced one), not the status of OoT, the more recent game and the game that has become the center-point of the series.

Ganon doesn't leave the SR between IW and ALttP. If TWW is a sequel to OoT (hint: it is) and OoT is the IW, then TWW must therefore come after ALttP. That is, after Ganon's been killed. Oops. It's really not worth messing up the neat OoT-TWW continuity to shoehorn ALttP in there.

It's like the developer statements don't matter when they interfere with your ideals.

They don't matter to me one jot when they try to interfere with canon.

[LionHarted]

Notably, no developer statement about games that the developer in question did not direct or play a significant role in creating has ever really been accurate.

Hence why Miyamoto knows next to nothing about LA/TWW in his interviews, and why Aonuma knows nothing about FS/A.

The Intro also describes how the Sages sealed all paths to the Sacred Realm, thus trapping Ganon there, and there's shitloads of dialogue about how Agahnim is sacrificing Maidens to undo the seal, etcetera. Seriously, you're just arguing over one of the most key plotpoints in the game.

1) The intro describes the sages sealing all paths to the Sacred Realm, but notably forgets to tell us that this had anything to do with Ganon.
2) All the dialogue about Agahnim also conveniently forgets that Ganon is in the Sacred Realm, and is the reason it is supposed to remain sealed.

Really, it's not until the maidens tell you that you even find out Ganon exists, much less in the Dark World or with the Triforce, and he had been the one to orchestrate their capture. And they had been in the Dark World, listening in on the evil one's plans.

A name in the Imprisoning War era is the name of a Town later.

States quite plainly that the names are from the "Imprisoning War era", as though it ought to be taken for granted that OoT = IW.

Ganon doesn't leave the SR between IW and ALttP.

THIS IS NOT A FACT. THIS IS AN ASSUMPTION BASED ON WHAT LIMITED INFORMATION WAS AVAILABLE BEFORE OCARINA OF TIME WAS EVER RELEASED.

You know, back when there were no chances for us to raise ideas about inconsistencies between Ganon in the IW and Ganon in ALttP, because the IW was an event undepicted in any game, and therefore would have been assumed to happen immediately before ALttP, with everything being exactly as we would have expected it to be for the events of ALttP to succeed the IW directly.

You believe there are no canon contradictions if you put OoT as the IW?

Yep.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 July 2007 - 09:02 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

1) The intro describes the sages sealing all paths to the Sacred Realm, but notably forgets to tell us that this had anything to do with Ganon.

Now you're just being anal. If all portals between Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are sealed, and Ganon is in the Sealed Realm, than Ganon is sealed in the Sacred Realm. Why are we arguing this?

Really, it's not until the maidens tell you that you even find out Ganon exists, much less in the Dark World or with the Triforce, and he had been the one to orchestrate their capture. And they had been in the Dark World, listening in on the evil one's plans.

So what? doesn't change the fact he's sealed in there.

THIS IS NOT A FACT.

YES IT IS.

Yep.

Then you're an idiot.

I'm starting to think you've never played LTTP or OOT.

[LionHarted]

Now you're just being anal. If all portals between Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are sealed, and Ganon is in the Sealed Realm, than Ganon is sealed in the Sacred Realm. Why are we arguing this?

We're not. We're arguing whether the Ganon in ALttP is the one from the IW.
I'm arguing that there's no proof either way, since the game never relates Ganon specifically to the war or to the seal at all; he's just some guy who wandered into the Sacred Realm, took the Triforce, and was unable to return, and who is now trying to break out.

So what? doesn't change the fact he's sealed in there.

He is sealed in there. Was he specifically targeted by sages in a war to be sealed?

I don't think so. I think this fate is reserved for OoT Ganon, and that this ALttP Ganon was an unfortunate victim of the after-effects, having rediscovered the sealed realm.

YES IT IS.

Then show me the following:

[1] Give me one source related to ALttP that says that [this] Ganon [from ALttP] was sealed in the Sacred Realm prior to ALttP, and that he remained there for the entirety of the span between the war and ALttP. (btw, this information does not appear in the game or in the Japanese manual) [2] Give me one developer/official source post-OoT that specifically refutes its status as the Imprisoning War.

If you cannot do this, then you:

[1] Have no actual facts to prove that your theory is fact, just a collection of facts that you can piece together to form your theory;
[2] Have an actual fact that, especially in light of more recent canon, contradicts your theory outright.

Then you're an idiot.

I'm starting to think you've never played LTTP or OOT.

The fact that you make ad hominem attacks instead of providing actual arguments doesn't prove your point.

Edited by LionHarted, 19 July 2007 - 11:23 AM.

[Person]

The one who rediscovered
the Golden Land was
an evil thief named Ganondorf.
Luckily, he couldn't figure out
how to return to the Light
World...

How many time must I pull out this quote? Evil thief named Ganondorf walks into the Sacred Realm and gets the Triforce. He is sealed inside by some sages. He can't get out. That is the gist of the IW story.

As for canon contradictions regarding OoT:
-Ganon only gets the ToP
-He escapes and breaks the seal in TWW.
-The seal is held in place by the Master Sword. The ALttP seal has nothing to do with the Master Sword.

[CID Farwin]

Yay! I'm done with my new thread. It's been really fun watching MPS and LionHarted duke it out, but now I can intervene.

-Ganon only gets the ToP

Does it ever say he has it all, or it at all, in ALttP?

-He escapes and breaks the seal in TWW.

escapes-yes. breaks the seal-possibly. He could've used the magic mirror for all we know. LionHarted has a point.

-The seal is held in place by the Master Sword. The ALttP seal has nothing to do with the Master Sword.

I don't remember the seal holding Ganon in OoT having anything to do with the Master Sword.

By the way, only one of these is new from the time that OoT was without a doubt the IW.

[Fyxe]

I'm sorry, I have to jump in here.

Does it ever say he has it all, or it at all, in ALttP?

YES. YES HE DOES. IT'S IN THE ROOM RIGHT BEHIND HIM. HE OWNS THE TRIFORCE.

Have to kill these things as soon as they appear.

[CID Farwin]

I'm sorry, I have to jump in here.

Does it ever say he has it all, or it at all, in ALttP?

YES. YES HE DOES. IT'S IN THE ROOM RIGHT BEHIND HIM. HE OWNS THE TRIFORCE.

Have to kill these things as soon as they appear.

I was hoping for this exact reply.

1. It's in the room behind him, not with him.
2. I'm under the impression that if it was already there, it would be whole, not in peices.
3. Ganon's dead , and Link(with Zelda) walks into the room, where the Triforce unifies. There's no proof it was already there.

Edited by CID Farwin, 19 July 2007 - 05:24 PM.

[Showsni]

Then what's the point of the game??? Ganon has the triforce in ALttP. Don't even try to argue against it. The Ganon in ALttP is (shock horror) the same Ganon as the one in ALttP's backstory! Who'd've thought it! Trying to argue against these points is just silly. Maybe you could weasel out some explanation that could potentially work. But why would you try to? Seriously? I could argue that in OoT, adult Link is actually an entirely different person to young Link. But I'm not going to try to. Because it's stupid! You really want proof that
1. (CID Farwin) Ganondorf has the triforce in ALttP.
2. (LionHarted) The Ganon in ALttP's backstory is the Ganon in ALttP.

Seriously?

Well,
1. "Surprisingly, the Triforce created this world to fulfill Ganon's wish." Oh, so it's fulfilling Ganon's wish. Something only a whole triforce does.
"But because Ganon, the boss of thieves, wished it the world was transformed..."
"The Triforce will grant the wishes of whoever touches it, as long as that person lives..."
"If a person who has an evil heart gets the Triforce, a Hero is destined to appear... ...and he alone must face the person who began the Great Cataclysm. If the evil one destroys the Hero, nothing can save the world from his wicked reign. Only a person of the Knights Of Hyrule, who protected the royalty of Hylia, can become the Hero...You are of their blood-line, aren't you?" - i.e. the Prophecy of the Great Cataclysm has kicked in. Which it only does if someone gets the whole triforce.
"If you defeat Ganon, this world will vanish and the Triforce will wait for a new holder."
"You're new here, aren't you? Did you come here looking for the Power Of Gold? Well, you're too late.It will obey only the first person who touches it. The man who last claimed the Power Of Gold wished for this world.It reflects his heart. Yes, I came here because of greed for the Golden Power, and look what happened to me... To restore the Golden Land, a person worthy of the Golden Power must defeat the man who created this place... Until that time, I am stuck in this bizarre shape. But what a mischievous thing to leave lying around... The Power Of Gold... Triforce..."
Need I go on?

2. This is like mohammedali's two king's theory... I mean, honestly. If I tell you "I bought a really nice spork earlier today." And then hand you a spork, don't you assume it's the one I'm talking about? Doesn't all common sense say that? You're seriously saying that a player would read the instruction book, where it tells about a greedy thief called Ganon who took the triforce and was sealed in the SR, and play the game up to a point where they're told about a greedy thief called Ganon who took the triforce and was sealed in the SR, and assume they're different people???

[Fyxe]

1. It's in the room behind him, not with him.
2. I'm under the impression that if it was already there, it would be whole, not in peices.
3. Ganon's dead , and Link(with Zelda) walks into the room, where the Triforce unifies. There's no proof it was already there.

*Clears throat* Ahem...

...You're an utter doofus.

[CID Farwin]

1. (CID Farwin) Ganondorf has the triforce in ALttP.

OF COURSE HE DOES!
otherwise

Then what's the point of the game???

Don't take me for a moron. I've been working on this theory for two years; Believe it or not I actually know what I'm talking about. I'm just trying to redefine 'has.' It's in his possession. He was the last to [touch it-wish on it-use it-whatever.] That doesn't mean that he physically has it with him. You can have a car without carrying it with you.

Oh, so it's fulfilling Ganon's wish. Something only a whole triforce does.

So he made a wish to rule the world(in OoT/IW) on the whole Triforce. And then it split.

The Triforce split in TWW. Doesn't mean it didn't fulfil Daphnes Nohansen's wish.

A 1/3 Triforce would also explain why it gave Ganon/dorf a shadow of the world instead of the real thing.

and now for my quotes:
"The resting place of the sacred triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a mirror that reflects what is in the heart... the heart of one who enters it... If an evil heart, the Realm will become full of evil; if pure, the Realm will become a paradise."-So the Sacred Realm became the Dark World as a result of Ganondorf entering.
"If the heart of the one who holds the sacred triangle has all three forces in balance, that one will gain the True Force to govern all. But, if that one's heart is not in balance, the Triforce will separate into three parts: Power, Wisdom and Courage."-so every time Ganon/dorf makes a wish it separates.
"The Triforce parts are resonating... They are combining into one again... " Like we see in TWW, when all three peices are gathered, the Triforce becomes whole. Why would it be in pieces at the end of ALttP?

- i.e. the Prophecy of the Great Cataclysm has kicked in. Which it only does if someone gets the whole triforce.

hmm...
"If a person who has an evil heart gets the Triforce, a Hero is destined to appear... ...and he alone must face the person who began the Great Cataclysm. If the evil one destroys the Hero, nothing can save the world from his wicked reign. Only a person of the Knights Of Hyrule, who protected the royalty of Hylia, can become the Hero...You are of their blood-line, aren't you?"
1. This happened in OoT, yet Ganondorf only had one piece of the Triforce. And I don't see anything here about the whole Triforce. Granted it was written with that intent, but since this IS WHAT HAPPENED in OoT, the interpretation changes.

*Clears throat* Ahem...

...You're an utter doofus.

There's a good possibility of that, but like I said: I do know what I'm talking about.

Edited by CID Farwin, 19 July 2007 - 09:46 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Don't take me for a moron. I've been working on this theory for two years; Believe it or not I actually know what I'm talking about. I'm just trying to redefine 'has.' It's in his possession. He was the last to [touch it-wish on it-use it-whatever.]That doesn't mean that he physically has it with him. You can have a car without carrying it with you.

No one's arguing Ganon physically has the Triforce in his hand or something. He keeps it in the back room and guards the entrance to it.

The Triforce split in TWW. Doesn't mean it didn't fulfil Daphnes Nohansen's wish.

We don't know that the Triforce split. It's ALWAYS dismissed with three triangles going everywhere. It probably just regrouped in the Sacred Realm or something.

The Triforce granted Ganon's wish, meaning it will serve him for the rest of his days as a unified whole.

A 1/3 Triforce would also explain why it gave Ganon/dorf a shadow of the world instead of the real thing.

No it wouldn't.

Why would it be in pieces at the end of ALttP?

I wouldn't call that in pieces. It's just in a more ethereal form to represent it's essence. I figured that was the obvious implication.

"If a person who has an evil heart gets the Triforce, a Hero is destined to appear... ...and he alone must face the person who began the Great Cataclysm. If the evil one destroys the Hero, nothing can save the world from his wicked reign. Only a person of the Knights Of Hyrule, who protected the royalty of Hylia, can become the Hero...You are of their blood-line, aren't you?"
1. This happened in OoT, yet Ganondorf only had one piece of the Triforce. And I don't see anything here about the whole Triforce. Granted it was written with that intent, but since this IS WHAT HAPPENED in OoT, the interpretation changes.

OOT Link didn't face the evil heart "ALONE" though, and there's no proof that OOT Link is of the Knight's bloodline.

I do know what I'm talking about.

Debatable.

We're not. We're arguing whether the Ganon in ALttP is the one from the IW.
I'm arguing that there's no proof either way, since the game never relates Ganon specifically to the war or to the seal at all; he's just some guy who wandered into the Sacred Realm, took the Triforce, and was unable to return, and who is now trying to break out.

Holy hell, who the hell is trying to say Ganon of LTTP isn't the same as the one in IW? I'm certainly not, and if you are, you're a dipshit not worth arguing with.

And yea, it does specifically relate Ganon to the War/Seal. Just not by name. Ganon gets Triforce, he makes wish, Sacred Realm is corrupted with evil. Evil emanates from the portals, so they're sealed. Imprisoning War. Ganon's ass is stuck inside due to the seal, and never gets out until the time of LTTP.

He is sealed in there. Was he specifically targeted by sages in a war to be sealed?

I don't think so. I think this fate is reserved for OoT Ganon, and that this ALttP Ganon was an unfortunate victim of the after-effects, having rediscovered the sealed realm.

Which supports my argument of OOT NOT being the imprisoning war. Thanks.

Then show me the following:

[1] Give me one source related to ALttP that says that [this] Ganon [from ALttP] was sealed in the Sacred Realm prior to ALttP, and that he remained there for the entirety of the span between the war and ALttP. (btw, this information does not appear in the game or in the Japanese manual) [2] Give me one developer/official source post-OoT that specifically refutes its status as the Imprisoning War.

If you cannot do this, then you:

[1] Have no actual facts to prove that your theory is fact, just a collection of facts that you can piece together to form your theory;
[2] Have an actual fact that, especially in light of more recent canon, contradicts your theory outright.

[1] The backstory. Now pull your head out of your ass.
[2] I explained that I don't give a shit about developer quotes if they contradict the canon.

The fact that you make ad hominem attacks instead of providing actual arguments doesn't prove your point.

It's a legitimate concern. The way you blindly wade through the arguement, I SERIOUSLY suspect, without a hint of sarcasm or mockery, that you probably haven't played either game.

[CID Farwin]

I'll start by mentioning the great mental imagery this provides:

Ganon's ass is stuck inside due to the seal, and never gets out until the time of LTTP.

Now on to the discussion.

OOT Link didn't face the evil heart "ALONE" though,

Last I checked, he was the only one fighting against him.

and there's no proof that OOT Link is of the Knight's bloodline.

Don't tell me this. I will ignore such comments. It is my opinion that EVERY Link is of the knights bloodline. "Only a person of the Knights Of Hyrule, who protected the royalty of Hylia, can become the Hero..." says to me that Link will only reincarnate inside of the bloodline.

It's ALWAYS dismissed with three triangles going everywhere.

I recall that happening...ONCE. during TWW. Or maybe it happens in a game like AoL I haven't finished. If that's the case, then I guess I've left myself open for checkmate.

Debatable.

Yes it is, depending on the subject. I at least know more than certain other*looks at LionHarted* people in this discussion.

No one's arguing Ganon physically has the Triforce in his hand or something. He keeps it in the back room and guards the entrance to it.

*checks thread* ....You're right. I don't know why I even brought it up. This would be one of those "debatable" times.

No it wouldn't.

What? he makes a wish and gets sealed. The Triforce, though not whole, still tries to grant his wish. Is it really that far of a stretch?

Or how about this: The Sacred Realm changes according to the person who enters it. Ganon/dorf's desire is to conquer Hyrule, and cover it in darkness, so the Sacred Realm changes to reflect the fulfillment of this desire. When he does get the entire Triforce, the Sacred Realm "solidifies" into the Dark World

I wouldn't call that in pieces. It's just in a more ethereal form to represent it's essence. I figured that was the obvious implication.

and OoT=IW is a less obvious implication?

[edited addition]So is the any REAL contradictions for OoT=IW?

Edited by CID Farwin, 20 July 2007 - 12:40 AM.

[LionHarted]

The one who rediscovered
the Golden Land was
an evil thief named Ganondorf.
Luckily, he couldn't figure out
how to return to the Light
World...

This quote doesn't have to have anything to do with the Imprisoning War, especially not now that there are multiple Ganons anyway. All this tells is is why/how Ganon is in the Sacred Realm. The war tells us why it is sealed.

As for canon contradictions regarding OoT:
-Ganon only gets the ToP
-He escapes and breaks the seal in TWW.
-The seal is held in place by the Master Sword. The ALttP seal has nothing to do with the Master Sword.

Then, in the IW, Ganon only gets the ToP. He'll get the whole thing when he reenters the realm [still-sealed] later.
Find a quote that says Ganon "broke the seal" in TWW.
Find a quote that relates the sages' seal to the Master Sword.
(NOTE: Point 1 is exactly what you have happen, minus the placement of the war after he reenters the realm; instead I have the realm still sealed when he reenters. The only difference is the placement of the IW, and, inevitably, the fact that you have it happen twice.)

1. "Surprisingly, the Triforce created this world to fulfill Ganon's wish." Oh, so it's fulfilling Ganon's wish. Something only a whole triforce does.
"But because Ganon, the boss of thieves, wished it the world was transformed..."

I agree that Ganon has the whole Triforce in ALttP, but the Triforce of Power alone transformed the Sacred Realm in OoT, so there's no reason to say it couldn't again. "Triforce" doesn't have to refer to the whole thing; "fulfilling Ganon's wish" doesn't have to require the whole Triforce (especially since it was only partially fulfilled).

2. This is like mohammedali's two king's theory...

Both theories are like it.

Yours has two wars; mine has two Ganons.

The main difference being that we already know there are two Ganons, while you have to assume that there

(1) has to be another war;
(2) is another war.

The backstory. Now pull your head out of your ass.

The backstory says that the Sacred Realm was sealed, not that the war and the breaking of the seal are a seamless progression of events. The backstory even allots for hundreds of years in-between the sealing and Agahnim's appearance in Hyrule.

I explained that I don't give a shit about developer quotes if they contradict the canon.

OoT being the Imprisoning War contradicts your views; it contradicts no stated canon.
I don't give a shit about your views if they contradict developer quotes.

It's a legitimate concern. The way you blindly wade through the arguement, I SERIOUSLY suspect, without a hint of sarcasm or mockery, that you probably haven't played either game.

You're seriously wrong.

Which seems to be something of a pattern among your lines of thought.

who the hell is trying to say Ganon of LTTP isn't the same as the one in IW?

Me. OoT is the IW, as the developers have said, and as the backstory necessitates with its description of the Triforce and the events prior to the war, which are substantiated in OoT and maintained in TP's history; Ganon in ALttP is not the same Ganon as the one in OoT, as the games make obvious by killing off OoT Ganon in each timeline outside ALttP.

Which supports my argument of OOT NOT being the imprisoning war.

A view that is not yours that is equally plausible supports your argument... how?
Which Ganon is which is really irrelevant; all that matters is that Ganon gets in the Sacred Realm and touches the Triforce, and that the realm is sealed.

Edited by LionHarted, 20 July 2007 - 10:57 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Last I checked, he was the only one fighting against him.

It said he'd face the Evil alone, but he's supported by Navi and the Sages.

Don't tell me this. I will ignore such comments. It is my opinion that EVERY Link is of the knights bloodline. "Only a person of the Knights Of Hyrule, who protected the royalty of Hylia, can become the Hero..." says to me that Link will only reincarnate inside of the bloodline.

Yea, it's your opinion, not a fact. It's MY opinion that such a line, like all other prophecies in Zelda canon, only refers to this one instance.

I recall that happening...ONCE. during TWW. Or maybe it happens in a game like AoL I haven't finished. If that's the case, then I guess I've left myself open for checkmate.

It happens in AOL, yes.

What? he makes a wish and gets sealed. The Triforce, though not whole, still tries to grant his wish. Is it really that far of a stretch?

Or how about this: The Sacred Realm changes according to the person who enters it. Ganon/dorf's desire is to conquer Hyrule, and cover it in darkness, so the Sacred Realm changes to reflect the fulfillment of this desire. When he does get the entire Triforce, the Sacred Realm "solidifies" into the Dark World

The Sacred Realm was fine until he actually received the Triforce, changing to the Dark World SPECIFICALLY as a result of his wish. He may not rule the entire cosmos, but in my opinion, the Triforce merely provides you with all the tools to accomplish it yourself.

and OoT=IW is a less obvious implication?

[edited addition]So is the any REAL contradictions for OoT=IW?

I'm not seeing any Knights of Hyrule in OOT, no mention of a hero in the IW, there's no Ganon getting lost in the Sacred Realm in OOT and he doesn't have the whole Triforce either, etcetera.

This quote doesn't have to have anything to do with the Imprisoning War, especially not now that there are multiple Ganons anyway. All this tells is is why/how Ganon is in the Sacred Realm. The war tells us why it is sealed.

It leads up to the Imprisoning War. By that logic, all the strife in Europe had nothing to do with WW2.

Then, in the IW, Ganon only gets the ToP. He'll get the whole thing when he reenters the realm [still-sealed] later.

He gets the entire Triforce. End of story.

"fulfilling Ganon's wish" doesn't have to require the whole Triforce (especially since it was only partially fulfilled).

Yes it does. Triforce pieces don't even grant partial wishes.

The backstory says that the Sacred Realm was sealed, not that the war and the breaking of the seal are a seamless progression of events. The backstory even allots for hundreds of years in-between the sealing and Agahnim's appearance in Hyrule.

I never said it did.

OoT being the Imprisoning War contradicts your views; it contradicts no stated canon.
I don't give a shit about your views if they contradict developer quotes.

If OOT doesn't fit the details of the IW as described in LTTP's backstory, it's not the IW.

Me. OoT is the IW, as the developers have said, and as the backstory necessitates with its description of the Triforce and the events prior to the war, which are substantiated in OoT and maintained in TP's history; Ganon in ALttP is not the same Ganon as the one in OoT, as the games make obvious by killing off OoT Ganon in each timeline outside ALttP.

If they're not the same Ganon, then why the hell is the LTTP Ganon stuck in the Sacred Realm as a result of the Imprisoning War? That just defeats the whole point, you're just redefining the term, now.

Which Ganon is which is really irrelevant; all that matters is that Ganon gets in the Sacred Realm and touches the Triforce, and that the realm is sealed.

It IS relevant, however, that the Ganon of the IW has to be the same Ganon as LTTP.

[CID Farwin]

It happens in AOL, yes.

All right, then.

It said he'd face the Evil alone, but he's supported by Navi and the Sages.

It says "he alone." Which in this context means "only he." He's the only one fighting.

[LionHarted]

I'm not seeing any Knights of Hyrule in OOT, no mention of a hero in the IW, there's no Ganon getting lost in the Sacred Realm in OOT and he doesn't have the whole Triforce either, etcetera.

1) You are, however, seeing that Hyrule Castle was totally wiped out. I imagine it would not have gone undefended. Do you?

2) There's no mention of sages sealing Ganon in TWW.

3) No Ganon getting lost is the biggest proof against Ganon from ALttP being in the IW, if the IW is OoT (which the developers say).

It leads up to the Imprisoning War.

Debatable. It leads up to ALttP, and the evil breaking out of the Sacred Realm.
OoT leads up to the Imprisoning War.

He gets the entire Triforce.

Source?

Triforce pieces don't even grant partial wishes.

Wouldn't know. Haven't seen anyone try.

I never said it did.

You claim that what is never told us is absolute truth?

If OOT doesn't fit the details of the IW as described in LTTP's backstory, it's not the IW.

What contradiction is there? (besides the ones about what happened to Ganon when he entered the Sacred Realm as told in-game, which I'm suggesting have been disjointed from the war anyway)

If they're not the same Ganon, then why the hell is the LTTP Ganon stuck in the Sacred Realm as a result of the Imprisoning War?

The Sacred Realm was sealed in OoT by the seven sages. Ganon from OoT was sealed in the Sacred Realm.
Before TWW, Ganon escaped and was later sealed beneath Hyrule, and, in TWW, killed.

Ganondorf was reincarnated in FSA. Ganondorf rediscovered the entrance to the Sacred Realm, but couldn't figure out how to return to the light world (because it was sealed). Ganon, through Agahnim, sends the descendants of the sages to the Dark World in order to use their power to break the seal.

The seal is the result of the Imprisoning War. Ganon is stuck in the Sacred Realm because of the seal.

the Ganon of the IW has to be the same Ganon as LTTP.

Why?

Unless there are three timelines, it's impossible for the IW to happen immediately before ALttP and be completely true, because:

1) The IW began while the Triforce was still in the Sacred Realm from creation;
2) The IW marked the "birth" of Ganon.

Edited by LionHarted, 20 July 2007 - 01:08 PM.

[Person]

1) You are, however, seeing that Hyrule Castle was totally wiped out. I imagine it would not have gone undefended. Do you?

Argument from silence. The Knights of Hyrule appear in one dialogue box in the entire game. We never see any of them in the course of the game. We do, however, see them in FSA.

2) There's no mention of sages sealing Ganon in TWW.

Someone's obviously never taken a look around Hyrule Castle. Look at the stained-glass windows. The seven sages are there, exactly as in OoT. Plus, the Master Sword is the last thing keeping Ganondorf's powers sealed. In OoT, it's the gateway to the Sacred Realm. When TWW Link gets the MS, the seal is gone and Ganon is totally free. In ALttP, the Master Sword has nothing to do with the seal, the maidens do.

3) No Ganon getting lost is the biggest proof against Ganon from ALttP being in the IW, if the IW is OoT (which the developers say).

Ganon from the manual, Ganon from the backstory and Ganon from the final boss fight are the same. Saying otherwise is just plain stupid.

Debatable. It leads up to ALttP, and the evil breaking out of the Sacred Realm.

Then why is the IW even mentioned in ALttP? Maybe because the whole seal on the Sacred Realm is the WHOLE POINT OF THE IMPRISONING WAR??????

Source?

The game itself?

Wouldn't know. Haven't seen anyone try.

Argument from silence. Besides, in TWW, Ganon needs the whole Triforce to make his wish.

The Sacred Realm was sealed in OoT by the seven sages. Ganon from OoT was sealed in the Sacred Realm.
Before TWW, Ganon escaped and was later sealed beneath Hyrule, and, in TWW, killed.

Ganondorf was reincarnated in FSA. Ganondorf rediscovered the entrance to the Sacred Realm, but couldn't figure out how to return to the light world (because it was sealed). Ganon, through Agahnim, sends the descendants of the sages to the Dark World in order to use their power to break the seal.

The seal is the result of the Imprisoning War. Ganon is stuck in the Sacred Realm because of the seal.

Except that in TP the seal doesn't exist, and in TWW it's broken.

1) The IW began while the Triforce was still in the Sacred Realm from creation;
2) The IW marked the "birth" of Ganon.

If ALttP goes in the Child timeline, this all makes perfect sense. After TP, OoT Ganon is dead, and the IW can be a separate event.

[LionHarted]

Argument from silence. The Knights of Hyrule appear in one dialogue box in the entire game. We never see any of them in the course of the game. We do, however, see them in FSA.

We can assume they exist, though.
And we can assume they guarded the castle, like they were said to have in the IW story.
And we can assume that they were all but wiped out, like they were in the IW story.

The Triforce of Courage never is shown to split when Link leaves the future/leaves Hyrule in OoT/MM, yet TWW's story clearly maintains that it does. Ganondorf was never shown to have been captured when Link returned to the past in OoT, but TP's story reveals that this was definitely the case.

We can learn about the past, about events unseen, from the legends kept.

Someone's obviously never taken a look around Hyrule Castle. Look at the stained-glass windows. The seven sages are there, exactly as in OoT. Plus, the Master Sword is the last thing keeping Ganondorf's powers sealed.

1) Six sages.
2) Of course, if you read the ALttP manual, you'd see that the hero was said to have not been found before Ganon's army attacked the royal palace. Not that none was found at all. Playing OoT, it's clear that the hero was not found before Ganon's army attacked the royal palace. He was in the Sacred Realm.
3) The Master Sword keeps his powers sealed, but this particular seal most likely was placed on him after he escaped the Sacred Realm.

In OoT, it's the gateway to the Sacred Realm.

It notably was the sages who sealed the Sacred Realm in OoT. The Master Sword doesn't seem to have returned to the Temple of Time at all; instead it is in the sages' shrine in Hyrule Castle.

When TWW Link gets the MS, the seal is gone and Ganon is totally free.

The seal on Hyrule and on Ganon's magic is gone.

The Sacred Realm notably has absolutely nothing to do with TWW.

Ganon from the manual, Ganon from the backstory and Ganon from the final boss fight are the same. Saying otherwise is just plain stupid.

This is an illogical argument.

Then why is the IW even mentioned in ALttP?

Because the seal from the IW, the descendants from the sages of the IW, and the descendant of the knights of the IW are the prime elements and legends relevant to what's happening in ALttP.

Ganon is stuck inside the Sacred Realm [after having rediscovered it and gotten himself stuck inside]; he is using the sages' descendants to break the seal; the hero-descendant of the knights is rising again to battle the evil use of the Triforce.


Maybe because the whole seal on the Sacred Realm is the WHOLE POINT OF THE IMPRISONING WAR??????

The game itself?

Which I'm proposing depicts Ganon not-from-the-IW, not Ganon from-the-IW.

Source that Ganon gets the whole Triforce in the IW?

Argument from silence.

Yes. Because arguing your point isn't equally so.

Ganon needs the whole Triforce to make his wish.

Ganon needs to touch the whole Triforce to make his wish.

Except that in TP the seal doesn't exist, and in TWW it's broken.

Source?
Source?

If ALttP goes in the Child timeline, this all makes perfect sense. After TP, OoT Ganon is dead, and the IW can be a separate event.

Except it isn't a separate event.
The story-writers have said so. If they are incorrect, why should we believe there even is a Child Timeline?

[Person]

As I have said before, the story-writers maintained that OoT was based on the IW. It includes elements, but it is not the whole thing. All of your other arguments suck.

In TP, no mention is made of a seal. In TWW, which directly follows OoT, Ganon escapes, and the seal is broken. Apparently, your definition of "source" means it has to be explicitly stated. Besides, the Sages are in the game on the stained-glass windows. And pertaining to the Master Sword, why was it that Ganon needed it gone in order for him to get inside the realm?

[CID Farwin]

Argument from silence. The Knights of Hyrule appear in one dialogue box in the entire game. We never see any of them in the course of the game. We do, however, see them in FSA.

I don't see you, just a couple of dialog boxes. you must not exist.

-In ALttP it says that the Knights of Hyrule fought Ganon so the sages could imprison him.
-A game called Ocarina of Time is made to represent the Imprisoning War.
-In this game one boy fights Ganon so the sages can imprison him.

this creates an inconsistency.


LOGIK KOMBAT!

option 1: ALttP is wrong.
option 3: OoT isn't the Imprisoning War.
option 2: This boy must be one of the Knights.

F vs. A

F=For
A=Against

option 1:

F: It is possible that through a lot of storytelling, the story changes over the years.
A: Why would the game be wrong about itself?
F: OoT is the imprisoning War, so what it says is more correct.
A: But ALttP was re-released after OoT, why didn't they change it?
F: 1.they would have to go in and change every reference, and most likely miss at least one. 2.The game doesn't need to be changed.
A: If it doesn't need to be changed, then it can't be wrong.

STALEMATE

Option 2:

A: It Isn't the IW because of the inconsistencies, and there's no real proof that it is the IW anyway.
F: Aside from the fact that they created the game to be the Imprisoning War?
A: show me proof of that.
F: The developers said--
A: I don't care what the developers said.
F: well then the game clearly is meant to be the Imprisoning War.
A:Show me visual or textual proof that this is the case.

STALEMATE

Option 3:

A: There's no proof for this.
F: There's no proof against it either. But if it is true, then ALttP is right, OoT is the imprisoning war, and the inconsistency is null. Nothing is gained from it being wrong except for it has to be option 1 or 2, both of which resulted in a null argument

[/Logik Kombat]

I've seen plenty of arguments like these. The ones I've labeled as 'stalemate' are because the argument will stay at that point until one side eventually just gives up and the thread dies, nothing being solved.

Does the argument for option 3 count(assuming one way, what are the results?) I don't know so I haven't come to a conclusion.