220 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

To expand on what Hero of Legends said, Laruto makes a very big deal about her bloodline surviving the ravages of generations. A spiritual succession would render the passage of generations rather irrelevant.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

Your previous beliefs about ALttP don't hold anymore in the face of TWW and TP.

Replace "Beliefs" with "objective facts from credible source of information" and you'd be correct.

Quote

Except that's not true. Medli became the student of Komali's grandmother because she saw her playing the instrument, recognizing her as a Sage.

My mistake, then.

Quote

A spiritual succession would render the passage of generations rather irrelevant.

If you continue the train of thought of "bloodline = Instrument/Spiritual Quality", the passage of generations still maintains revelent.

[LionHarted]

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 15 2007, 12:44 AM, said:

Replace "Beliefs" with "objective facts from credible source of information" and you'd be correct.

[1] Give me one source related to ALttP that says that Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm prior to ALttP, and that he remained there for the entirety of the span between the war and ALttP. (btw, this information does not appear in the game or in the Japanese manual) [2] Give me one developer source post-Miyamoto Order that specifically refutes the order. [3] Give me one developer/official source post-OoT that specifically refutes its status as the Imprisoning War.

If you cannot do all three of these things, then you have no "objective facts" to refute these other "objective facts", which are plainly stated. All you have are your own wishes, and a load of circumstantial counter-evidence.

And while you're at it, you might find a way to refute the equally plainly-stated fact that the Triforce still rested (to use the exact wording) in the Sacred Realm at the time the Sacred Realm was opened prior to the war, because I'm fairly certain this is impossible if the war is any time after OoT Ganon's death.

Quote

If you continue the train of thought of "bloodline = Instrument/Spiritual Quality", the passage of generations still maintains revelent.

Not "passage of generations". "Ravages of generations." There is an extreme difference.

Edited by LionHarted, 15 July 2007 - 06:37 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

[1]Give me one source related to ALttP that says that Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm prior to ALttP, and that he remained there for the entirety of the span between the war and ALttP. (btw, this information does not appear in the game or in the Japanese manual) [2] Give me one developer source post-Miyamoto Order that specifically refutes the order. [3] Give me one developer/official source post-OoT that specifically refutes its status as the Imprisoning War.

If you cannot do all three of these things, then you have no "objective facts" to refute these other "objective facts", which are plainly stated. All you have are your own wishes, and a load of circumstantial counter-evidence.

And while you're at it, you might find a way to refute the equally plainly-stated fact that the Triforce still rested (to use the exact wording) in the Sacred Realm at the time the Sacred Realm was opened prior to the war, because I'm fairly certain this is impossible if the war is any time after OoT Ganon's death.

Give me a bit of time and I'll dig something up, but I have all of my Zelda stuff back home (Accessing from Grandma's.)

Quote

Not "passage of generations". "Ravages of generations." There is an extreme difference.

You said "Passage of generations", so that's your own fault.

[Person]

Let me bring out the text dump:

Quote

Link, thanks to you, I was
able to escape from the
clutches of evil. Thank you!
...The Triforce will grant the
wishes of whoever touches it,
as long as that person lives...
That is why it was hidden in
the Golden Land. Only a select
few were told of its location,
but at some point that
knowledge was lost...
The one who rediscovered
the Golden Land was
an evil thief named Ganondorf.
Luckily, he couldn't figure out
how to return to the Light
World...

We can discern a couple of things from this.
1.Ganon was not the first to find the Sacred Realm (TP backs this up)
2.People lost the knowledge of the Sacred Realm
3.Ganondorf found it, and has been stuck inside ever since.

Therefore, Ganon has been inside the Dark World since the IW. He found the realm, stole the Triforce, and then was sealed inside by the sages. He has not been out since. Using this logic, OoT by itself cannot be the IW, since Ganon breaks the seal and gets out in TWW, and he was never sealed in the first place in TP. However, we often forget that there are two Ganondorfs. I personally interpret this to mean Ganon's second incarnation (FSA), but it's a bit fanficcy.

[LionHarted]

Quote

You said "Passage of generations", so that's your own fault.

Actually, I said both, but didn't want to be totally monotonous, so didn't repeat it.

Read betta.

1) Ganon "rediscovered the Sacred Realm". Yes.
2) People lost the knowledge of the Sacred Realm. Yes.
3) Ganon couldn't return to the light world. Yes.

Now what does this have directly to do with the Imprisoning War? All that is said here has to do with Ganon and what happened after he "rediscovered" the Sacred Realm. Notably a war and a sealing are missing. He simply got in and couldn't figure out how to get back.

Edited by LionHarted, 15 July 2007 - 07:12 PM.

[Person]

In the context of the game, Ganon and the IW are synonymous. The maidens all talk about the backstory of the game. They talk about Ganondorf, the knights, the Triforce, the seal, etc. etc. Clearly, the IW was built as a backstory to explain both Ganon's origins and his current state. Some of the backstory was incorporated into OoT, while some was not. Likewise some was incorporated into FSA, and some was not. But it is clear that Ganon has been stuck inside the Sacred Realm since it was sealed. He has not escaped since. That is my reasoning as to why OoT can form the basis of the IW, but cannot complete the story in its entirety.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

Actually, I said both, but didn't want to be totally monotonous, so didn't repeat it.

Read betta.

Quote

To expand on what Hero of Legends said, Laruto makes a very big deal about her bloodline surviving the ravages of generations. A spiritual succession would render the passage of generations rather irrelevant.

Even if you said ravages the first time, "Ravages" and "passage" are two different things. Even still, it's not irrelevant. "ravages of generations" is no more literal than "passage".

Quote

Now what does this have directly to do with the Imprisoning War? All that is said here has to do with Ganon and what happened after he "rediscovered" the Sacred Realm. Notably a war and a sealing are missing. He simply got in and couldn't figure out how to get back.

The story continues to describe evil emanating from the portals and the Sages then sealed it up after a big ass war. Lose.

[CID Farwin]

Quote

Now what does this have directly to do with the Imprisoning War? All that is said here has to do with Ganon and what happened after he "rediscovered" the Sacred Realm. Notably a war and a sealing are missing. He simply got in and couldn't figure out how to get back.

Now this would work with the child ending, except for that TP gets in the way.

And now I've got a new theory! I'll have to post it on my sig.

Okay, so I guess now I'm going to have to make a new thread, too, because I'm reformatting my old one.

Quote

In the context of the game, Ganon and the IW are synonymous. The maidens all talk about the backstory of the game. They talk about Ganondorf, the knights, the Triforce, the seal, etc. etc. Clearly, the IW was built as a backstory to explain both Ganon's origins and his current state. Some of the backstory was incorporated into OoT, while some was not. Likewise some was incorporated into FSA, and some was not. But it is clear that Ganon has been stuck inside the Sacred Realm since it was sealed. He has not escaped since. That is my reasoning as to why OoT can form the basis of the IW, but cannot complete the story in its entirety.

This is why I play games relatively. OoT is the IW, but as far as ALttP goes, no game is.

[LionHarted]

Person, on Jul 15 2007, 07:53 PM, said:

In the context of the game, Ganon and the IW are synonymous.

OoT and the IW are synonymous.

Quote

Clearly, the IW was built as a backstory to explain both Ganon's origins and his current state.

Clearly, OoT depicts the IW.
Clearly, OoT doesn't explain Ganon's state in ALttP.

You reconcile these two facts by claiming the first is incorrect. What is your basis for this? What alternative do you propose? What evidence do you have for your alternative? Does your alternative serve to replace the original story without changing any of the details?

I, on the other hand, reconcile these two facts by removing all non-facts (i.e., assumptions) surrounding ALttP when it came out. Specifically (1) that the IW is supposed to tell us why Ganon is in the Sacred Realm in ALttP; (2) that Ganon must necessarily have been in the Realm for the entirety of the span between the IW and ALttP; (3) that the first time the Sacred Realm was opened can possibly have been the "rediscovery" of the Sacred Realm after its location was lost to those chosen (i.e., the royal family, as shown us in OoT).

Instead I propose alternatives; namely (1) that the IW is supposed to tell us why the Sacred Realm is sealed, hence why the in-game story doesn't ever relate Ganon to it at all; (2) that Ganon must necessarily have escaped the Realm to allow for a connection between ALttP and the 3D games; (3) that the "rediscovery" of the Sacred Realm was not the IW, which happened the first time the Sacred Realm was opened, while the location was still known.

Edited by LionHarted, 16 July 2007 - 12:01 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

Clearly, OoT depicts the IW.
Clearly, OoT doesn't explain Ganon's state in ALttP.

If it's not one, it can't be the other. They kind've go together as synonymous events.

[Duke Serkol]

CID Farwin, on Jul 16 2007, 04:48 AM, said:

now I've got a new theory! I'll have to post it on my sig.

That reminds me... I should inform you guys that KnS is not the correct acronym; that would be InS, standing for Inishie no Sekiban (which still translates to Ancient Stone Tablets).

This was determined by listening to Zelda no Video and recently confirmed by a Japanese player who did have the BS-X.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 16 July 2007 - 05:17 AM.

[LionHarted]

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 16 2007, 03:51 AM, said:

If it's not one, it can't be the other. They kind've go together as synonymous events.

That is your belief; it is not a fact.

Quit with the effing circular reasoning. The answer to the question "why?" is not "because it is."

Edited by LionHarted, 16 July 2007 - 08:56 AM.

[Person]

The backstory of ALttP is the IWThe IW explains how Ganon broke into the Sacred Realm, stole the Triforce, and fought a war. Seven sages sealed up the Sacred Realm with the help of a family of knights. Ganon was inside the Sacred Realm, and he was stuck.

Some of the elements of this story are in OoT, and some are not. Claiming that OoT was meant to be the IW in its entirety is unfounded. OoT has two direct sequels with Ganon in them. Therefore, it cannot explain the entirety of the IW legend.

[LionHarted]

Person, on Jul 16 2007, 11:00 AM, said:

The backstory of ALttP is the IWThe IW explains how Ganon broke into the Sacred Realm, stole the Triforce, and fought a war. Seven sages sealed up the Sacred Realm with the help of a family of knights. Ganon was inside the Sacred Realm, and he was stuck.

Yep.

OoT explains what happened during the IW.
TWW explains what happened to Ganondorf after the IW.
FSA explains the rebirth of Ganon and the origins of his trident.
Now we just need to explain how he got from the Four Sword to having "rediscovered the Sacred Realm" and being "unable to figure out how to return to the world of light."

OSHI. We need to do this anyway.

Why does there have to be another war?

Quote

Claiming that OoT was meant to be the IW in its entirety is unfounded.

The man who wrote the game says that it is.

Quote

Therefore, it cannot explain the entirety of the IW legend.

It cannot explain the entirety of the ALttP story. It can explain everything about how the Sacred Realm came to be sealed, and how Ganon the Evil King came to be.

Edited by LionHarted, 16 July 2007 - 11:46 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

That is your belief; it is not a fact.

You keep telling me that, but you've yet to prove to me why that's so, since it's straight from the LTTP manual.

Quote

The man who wrote the game says that it is.

The man who started the franchise said that all Links were the same.

[Showsni]

A. Why OoT should be the IW.
1. There are some similarities in the story.
2. The developers claim that OoT was based on the IW.

B. Why OoT should not be the IW.
1. There are some differences in the story.
2. If it is, then the sequels to OoT do not gel with ALttP.

A2 is not canon, so we can hold it as a lot lower than any canon points. A1 is undoubtedly true, but that doesn't necessarily make OoT the IW - there are similarities between FSA and OoT, but that doesn't make them the same event. B1 is a major sticking point. Any timeline that has contradictions with canon isn't as good as one with no contradictions, to an extent. B2 again means that contradictions with canon come up. So I tihnk the B points hold more weight than the As overall.

No amount of developer quotes outweighs contradictions in canon, in my view. And you can't deny there are contradictions in canon if you hold OoT to be the IW.

[Fyxe]

There are contradictions if it isn't.

Edited by Fyxe, 16 July 2007 - 04:12 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Quote

That reminds me... I should inform you guys that KnS is not the correct acronym; that would be InS, standing for Inishie no Sekiban (which still translates to Ancient Stone Tablets).

This was determined by listening to Zelda no Video and recently confirmed by a Japanese player who did have the BS-X.

Okay. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, *changes K's to I's and clicks on 'update my signature'* Fixed. Thanks for the heads-up. I don't like looking like some sort of moron. *Trips running up stairs* crap, well so much for that.

I promise I'm working on that thread right now, it's just probably going to take a few days.

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

There are contradictions if it isn't.

The only thing I can think of is Developer Quotes, which as Showsni explained, the games have to take priority over. Give me contradictions within the games and then we'll talk.

[Fyxe]

I can't, because I don't know what order of games you're working with. Sure, if you put the game order as ALttP, LA, Zelda and Zelda II, that's fine. Go nuts. But where are you putting games before ALttP? If you're using FSA as the IW, then I could throw about a billion contradictions at you. If you're placing OoT before ALttP but not having it be the IW, but not having FSA be the IW either, you've still got complications.

I can't offer you problems for a timeline I don't know, though. And I'm not repeating the problems with FSA again, I can't be fucked, we've been over them a thousand times.

Also, Serkol: Now you tell us.

Edited by Fyxe, 17 July 2007 - 06:24 AM.

[LionHarted]

MikePetersSucks, on Jul 16 2007, 01:34 PM, said:

You keep telling me that, but you've yet to prove to me why that's so, since it's straight from the LTTP manual.

ALttP manual never says that Ganon himself was sealed, just that the sages were supposed to stopper the flow of darkness from the Sacred Realm. Instead of retconning the placement of this event as something other than OoT, why not retcon the unstated ideas involved in determining how the event relates to ALttP?

Quote

The man who started the franchise said that all Links were the same.

And someone else said that they weren't.

No developer has said that OoT is not the IW.

Showsni said

A2 is not canon, so we can hold it as a lot lower than any canon points.

The man who wrote the story is the only person who can make perfectly true statements about the intent of the story. As such, A2 is as canon as you can possibly get. If you're going to argue that the story writer was wrong about his own story, then I really don't see how any developer statement can be true.

B1 is non-existent. Which contradictions? Why couldn't any of the things that are missing from the OoT story have happened in the seven years Link was away?

B2 assumes that the relationship between ALttP and the IW is absolute. If OoT is the IW, and other games force OoT not to be directly related to ALttP, then one would think the default would be to change the relationship between the IW and ALttP, that relationship being the more archaic and never actually established outside of a lack of an alternative (until TWW forced one), not the status of OoT, the more recent game and the game that has become the center-point of the series.

It's like the developer statements don't matter when they interfere with your ideals.

lol, single timelines, and all that stuff.

Edited by LionHarted, 17 July 2007 - 07:33 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

CID Farwin, on Jul 17 2007, 02:14 AM, said:

Okay. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, *changes K's to I's and clicks on 'update my signature'* Fixed. Thanks for the heads-up. I don't like looking like some sort of moron. *Trips running up stairs* crap, well so much for that.

I promise I'm working on that thread right now, it's just probably going to take a few days.

Wasn't your fault... or mine for that matter. The wrong translation came about before I became involved with BS Zelda (not that I could have proven it wrong anyway, not knowing Japanese).

I was rather annoyed too when I found I had to get used to a completely different word being in the title. Thankfully the English meaning doesn't change.

Have fun with the thread

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

I can't, because I don't know what order of games you're working with.

It's in my sig.

Quote

Sure, if you put the game order as ALttP, LA, Zelda and Zelda II, that's fine. Go nuts. But where are you putting games before ALttP? If you're using FSA as the IW, then I could throw about a billion contradictions at you. If you're placing OoT before ALttP but not having it be the IW, but not having FSA be the IW either, you've still got complications.

Agreed, except i'm not using any game as my IW. It's a stand-alone story in LTTP's backstory just like Ganon's sealing in TP's backstory.

Quote

ALttP manual never says that Ganon himself was sealed, just that the sages were supposed to stopper the flow of darkness from the Sacred Realm. Instead of retconning the placement of this event as something other than OoT, why not retcon the unstated ideas involved in determining how the event relates to ALttP?

If they were planning to retcon the events of the Imprisoning War, I'd have expected a very different telling of the events in LTTP's re-release. Furthmore, Ganon was in the Sacred Realm when it was sealed. Thus, Ganon was sealed.

Quote

And someone else said that they weren't.

No developer has said that OoT is not the IW.

And as you've just proven, the developers don't always agree and are frequently changing their minds, so I don't give a damn about what they have to say if it contradicts game canon.

[LionHarted]

Quote

If they were planning to retcon the events of the Imprisoning War, I'd have expected a very different telling of the events in LTTP's re-release.

Indeed. I, for one, would have expected them not to maintain that the Triforce was still at rest in the Sacred Realm from the creation.

Yet they did.

OoT didn't change anything about the IW. Nothing in ALttP needed to be changed. All the relevant information was already there. That a hero saved the day in the end doesn't matter to the immediate story of ALttP, just like that the sages saved the day and the sacred land was sealed doesn't matter to TWW.

Quote

Furthmore, Ganon was in the Sacred Realm when it was sealed. Thus, Ganon was sealed.

These are never established outside of

1) Ocarina of Time;
2) The mistranslated NoA manual

ALttP itself says that Ganon could never figure out how to get out of the Sacred Realm after he entered, in which case a seal, I imagine, would be superfluous.

Quote

And as you've just proven, the developers don't always agree and are frequently changing their minds, so I don't give a damn about what they have to say if it contradicts game canon.

So there's no split timeline? (contradicts plethora of things spoken of/seen in TWW/MM)

Edited by LionHarted, 17 July 2007 - 02:33 PM.

[Arturo]

Plethora of things?

Say anything that isn't the Legend of Fairy.

[Person]

Quote

These are never established outside of

1) Ocarina of Time;
2) The mistranslated NoA manual

Quote

The one who rediscovered
the Golden Land was
an evil thief named Ganondorf.
Luckily, he couldn't figure out
how to return to the Light
World...

Quote

As the sages sealed the way
to the Dark World, the Knights
of Hyrule defended them from
the attacks of evil monsters.

The maidens are talking about the IW here. Not two separate events. We have reason to beleive from these quotes that the sages sealed Ganon in the Sacred Realm. If he was able to escape as TWW tells us, why would they make such a big deal out of using the maidens to break the seal? This makes the ALttP seal a different seal from the OoT seal.

[Fyxe]

LionHarted, on Jul 17 2007, 08:29 PM, said:

ALttP itself says that Ganon could never figure out how to get out of the Sacred Realm after he entered, in which case a seal, I imagine, would be superfluous.

This was due, I always assumed, to the seal. I don't think it's ever suggested that he couldn't find his way out prior to the seal being cast.

However, I still believe OoT is the Imprisoning War. Y'know, because the designers intended it to be.

[Person]

Those developer quotes come from 1998. And from Miyamoto. If we believe him on everything, then the timeline goes OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP with LA going anywhere. Things change.

Now if Aonuma had said it, you might have a case there.

[Fyxe]

Person, on Jul 18 2007, 01:22 AM, said:

Those developer quotes come from 1998.

When the game was released. Precisely the best time to figure out what the designers were intending with the final story, yes? Yes.

Quote

And from Miyamoto.

Actually, no, it was from the scriptwriter and the character designer, I believe. And from what the character designer said, it was clear that it was a concept that everyone understood: 'this is the Imprisoning War'.

Quote

If we believe him on everything, then the timeline goes OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP with LA going anywhere. Things change.

Not that it's relevant, but I personally don't buy the authenticy of that old interview. Miyamoto isn't stupid. I figure either he or a translator misunderstood something, or the interview was just not taken down correctly.

Quote

Now if Aonuma had said it, you might have a case there.

I don't need Aonuma or Miyamoto, I have two of the most important plot-based people who worked on the game saying that was the Imprisoning War. If they got it wrong, then we might as well give up arguing about the timeline altogether, because if they don't know what they're doing then what the hell is the point in considering whether the games have any logical connections whatsoever?