220 replies to this topic

[Person]

While I do not think this view has much evidence to back it up, I've seen it used some places to rectify discrepancies between the 2D and 3D games. It goes like this:

2D
TMC-FS-FSA-ALttP-LA-(OoX)-LoZ-AoL-(OoX)

3D
Timeline 1
OoT-MM-TP

Timeline 2
OoT-TWW-PH


I think this theory is just a cop-out that ignores the obvious connection between the 2D and 3D games, but I could see how someone could make it work.

Edited by Person, 12 July 2007 - 09:01 PM.

[CID Farwin]

No, THIS is a cop-out.

#1Nintendo's fractured timeline


Child Prong

_____/[MM]----[TP]-----(\)
[OoT](---------------------)[ALttP]--[KnS]--[LA]--[LoZ]--[AoL]
-------\ --[TWW]--[PH]--(/)

Adult Prong


#2The Light Force Timeline

[TMC]---[FS]---[FSA]

and finally:
#3The Oracle Timeline

[OoS]
X
[OoA]

And I stick by it.

Edited by CID Farwin, 12 July 2007 - 09:35 PM.

[Person]

Yeah. Your theory's even more of a cop-out than the one I mentioned. But what do you think of it?

[LionHarted]

Actually, to be quite honest, this is more accurate than any other timeline.

It really hinges on the Imprisoning War of ALttP, and how/if it relates to OoT or the 3D games in general. OoT was made to tell this story, but it can still tell the story without literally representing the pre-ALttP events.

[CID Farwin]

I think my timeline wins.

Seriously though, it has pretty good continuity. It has no other basis other than the 2D/3D, but I like it. It's new.

I like them all to be connected, which is why I eventually came up with this

[TMC]---[OoT]---[TWW]-[PH]---[FS]-[FSA]---[ALttP]-[KnS]-[LA]---[LoZ]-[AoL]
__________|
__________[MM]---[TP]
The oracles really could go pretty much anywhere.

which is basically just a single timeline with TP thrown into the mix.

It really hinges on the Imprisoning War of ALttP, and how/if it relates to OoT or the 3D games in general. OoT was made to tell this story, but it can still tell the story without literally representing the pre-ALttP events.

"The Legend of Zelda." OoT should come with a disclamer 'based on the Imprisoning War of ALttP' They would do well to do that if they made movies.

Edited by CID Farwin, 12 July 2007 - 10:47 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

"The Legend of Zelda." OoT should come with a disclamer 'based on the Imprisoning War of ALttP' They would do well to do that if they made movies.

"Based on" wouldn't discourage me from thinking FSA integrates it.

[Fyxe]

"The Legend of Zelda." OoT should come with a disclamer 'based on the Imprisoning War of ALttP' They would do well to do that if they made movies.

"Based on" wouldn't discourage me from thinking FSA integrates it.

Nah, FSA's plot should do that. XP

[Duke Serkol]

Except that it doesn't, OoT's ending does.

[Fyxe]

Eh?

Actually now I've lost track of what you're arguing.

I request that everyone state their standpoint more carefully.

[Person]

I think that Duke Serkol was saying that both OoT and FSA include elements of imprisoning war. This 2D/3D timeline does not have a story that could adequately explain the Seal War.

[Fyxe]

OoT includes all necessary elements, I feel, FSA only contains a few.

[LionHarted]

This 2D/3D timeline does not have a story that could adequately explain the Seal War.

OoT adequately explains what happened in the Seal War.

However, in this picture, the conditions of its ending lead to something that is not ALttP.

[Person]

I know that OoT satisfies most of the IW, but it has two direct sequels that are not ALttP. ALttP requires that Ganon be sealed inside the Dark World from the IW up until ALttP.

But that's not the crux of the argument. This 2D/3D timeline has no IW to speak of. That's what I think is wrong with it.

[CID Farwin]

"Based on" wouldn't discourage me from thinking FSA integrates it.

I'm just saying it would discourage people who say OoT can't be the IW because of a few technicalities.

I know that OoT satisfies most of the IW, but it has two direct sequels that are not ALttP. ALttP requires that Ganon be sealed inside the Dark World from the IW up until ALttP.

Ganon, but not Ganondorf. I know it's totally unlikely, but it's my reason for putting ALttP after TWW.(one of them anyway)

But that's not the crux of the argument. This 2D/3D timeline has no IW to speak of. That's what I think is wrong with it.

does it need one? I'm not saying that that timeline works, but it having no IW doesn't make it false.

[Person]

Considering that the IW is in ALttP's backstory, it needs to happen.

[CID Farwin]

Just because it's not shown, doesn't mean it didn't happen. It could just be pre-ALttP.

[Duke Serkol]

OoT includes all necessary elements, I feel, FSA only contains a few.

I disagree. OoT ends with two parts of the Triforce not sealed up with Ganon, whereas in FSA the Triforce's whereabouts are not given, meaning Ganon could have the whole thing (something clearly not possible in OoT).

...what's up with the lil' Mario?

"Based on" wouldn't discourage me from thinking FSA integrates it.

I'm just saying it would discourage people who say OoT can't be the IW because of a few technicalities.

Okie dokie

Edited by Duke Serkol, 13 July 2007 - 06:51 PM.

[Fyxe]

OoT includes all necessary elements, I feel, FSA only contains a few.

I disagree. OoT ends with two parts of the Triforce not sealed up with Ganon, whereas in FSA the Triforce's whereabouts are not given, meaning Ganon could have the whole thing (something clearly not possible in OoT).

I disagree, the lack of mention of the Triforce in FSA shows an obvious attempt by the designers to keep it away from the plot of FSA. Besides, we're told how Ganondorf becomes Ganon in FSA, due to the trident. This is nothing to do with the Triforce, and having two explainations for his reverting to demon form is needless and messy. Besides, FSA relies on an ancient demon Ganon being dead anyway. While the TP Ganon could possibly fit the bill, it's a bit of a stretch in my opinion, especially given that FSA was made well before TP was off the drawing board.

The fact that Ganondorf does not have the ToP is less of an issue than it not being mentioned whatsoever. Sure, he COULD have it, but he could also be an alien from outer space if you're going to go down that route of selective fact.

Then there's the whole deal about the lack of Sages (yes, I know, the maidens are similar, but given that they're a reference to ALttP, the designers aren't stupid; they would have made them Sages if they intended FSA to be the IW), the fact that Ganon is sealed within the Four Sword, and the fact that most of Hyrule seems oblivious to the fact that Ganon exists; Vaati is the overt threat.

...what's up with the lil' Mario?

It's my sig, what's wrong with it? o.o It's retro.

[Duke Serkol]

I disagree.

I disagree

I guess it's once again super happy agree to disagree fun time!

...what's up with the lil' Mario?

It's my sig, what's wrong with it? o.o It's retro.

Oh, nothing wrong with it, just wondering if it was part of something (like your "Lordy -> Oh my lordy" progression... figured it could be the start of a new one)

[Person]

FSA also has the Knights of Hyrule. No knights are present in OoT, and they are only mentioned once in the dialogue box when you get the Hylian Shield. In the IW, they are the main characters who fight off Ganon to the death, just like they do in FSA.

It also has seven Hylian maidens. In ALttP, all of the maidens are Hylian. If we go to say that they are the descendants of the OoT sages, we have to have descendants of a Zora, Goron, and Kokiri. These species are not in ALttP, so I believe that the bloodline was literal. The maidens from FSA later got married, had kids, and have a bloodline going to the ALttP maidens.

[LionHarted]

OoT ends with two parts of the Triforce not sealed up with Ganon

Funny; every version of the Seal War story I've read never specifies.
And none of the versions of ALttP I've played ever say that Ganon was sealed up anywhere.

It also has seven Hylian maidens. In ALttP, all of the maidens are Hylian. If we go to say that they are the descendants of the OoT sages, we have to have descendants of a Zora, Goron, and Kokiri. These species are not in ALttP, so I believe that the bloodline was literal.

In TP, the Hylians are descended from the Oocca.

Edited by LionHarted, 14 July 2007 - 12:42 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Or more simply, the Imprisoning War is a stand-alone event like the Fierce War and the Sealing of the Twili and the Sleeping Zelda and the Flood. Criminy, people. It's just not worth it to debate about it this anally.

[LionHarted]

Or more simply, the Imprisoning War is a stand-alone event like the Fierce War and the Sealing of the Twili and the Sleeping Zelda and the Flood.

Except a game has already been made about it.

[Person]

The IW backstory does not specify how many pieces were sealed up with Ganon, but ALttP itself does. Considering that Ganon had all three pieces of the Triforce, and he's been there since the IW, I find it unlikely that Ganon somehow got all three pieces without leaving his prison.

And yes, Ganon was not mentioned as being sealed up in the backstory, but he was mentioned as having been sealed up along with the Sacred Realm in the game. And he's been unable to get out ever since.

And yes, the Hylians are descended from the Oocca, but that's in the sense that humans are descended from apes. The Oocca civilization is older than dirt. In OoT, we have two sages that seem to be biologically incompatible with normal Hylians, Ruto and Darunia. How could they have Hylian descendants in ALttP?

[Fyxe]

The IW backstory does not specify how many pieces were sealed up with Ganon, but ALttP itself does. Considering that Ganon had all three pieces of the Triforce, and he's been there since the IW, I find it unlikely that Ganon somehow got all three pieces without leaving his prison.

You could say the same thing about TWW. It seems unlikely that Ganondorf got part of the Triforce of Wisdom when he was sealed under the Great Sea, yet he managed it.

Plus Ganon manages to break his seal without actually leaving it. With Agahnim as his pawn, all it takes is time and effort for Ganon to retrieve the remaining pieces if he needs to.

And yes, the Hylians are descended from the Oocca, but that's in the sense that humans are descended from apes. The Oocca civilization is older than dirt. In OoT, we have two sages that seem to be biologically incompatible with normal Hylians, Ruto and Darunia. How could they have Hylian descendants in ALttP?

How could Medli and Makar take on the bloodline of a Zora and a Kokiri?

I think TWW, ironically given it essentially messed with the timeline like crazy, answers some of the small issues with the OoT/IW connection.

Edited by Fyxe, 14 July 2007 - 12:26 PM.

[Person]

Plus Ganon manages to break his seal without actually leaving it. With Agahnim as his pawn, all it takes is time and effort for Ganon to retrieve the remaining pieces if he needs to.

So essentially, a wizard did it?

How could Medli and Makar take on the bloodline of a Zora and a Kokiri?

All of that is explained in the game itself. Kokiri were merely forst spirits who could take a different form, and the Rito are evolved Zoras. Plus, the game itself says that they are direct descendants. In ALttP, we have no reason to believe that a Goron or Zora could sire Hylian offspring. This is cleared up by having the maidens from FSA be the sages. They're all the same species.

[MikePetersSucks]

Except a game has already been made about it.

If you say so. That creator's intent clearly doesn't hold anymore in the face of TWW and TP.

All of that is explained in the game itself. Kokiri were merely forst spirits who could take a different form, and the Rito are evolved Zoras. Plus, the game itself says that they are direct descendants. In ALttP, we have no reason to believe that a Goron or Zora could sire Hylian offspring. This is cleared up by having the maidens from FSA be the sages. They're all the same species.

Even though both Sages explain that their bloodline is apparently signified by possessing the same instrument, and Medli got hers from Prince Komali's grandmother? I smell plothole. Or bloodlines can be a metaphor and it's a spiritual heritage that can be passed on to ANY worthy individual.

[Fyxe]

Given that Zoras 'evolve' into Rito, then who's to say that the bloodline of Sages like Darunia and Ruto could not also evolve into beings that *could* breed with Hylians?

Then again, I'm not sure if 'bloodline' is meant to be taken too literally anyway. TWW showed that destiny and fate can continue despite the lack of blood connection.

Besides, FSA has more problems other than the Maidens not being Sages.

[LionHarted]

If you say so. That creator's intent clearly doesn't hold anymore in the face of TWW and TP.

No.

Your previous beliefs about ALttP don't hold anymore in the face of TWW and TP.

Why would the base meaning and purpose of OoT at its release be changed, as opposed to its immediate relationship to the much-older ALttP, as well as ALttP's relationship to a war that can only happen in the place occupied by OoT (being cited as the origins of Ganon, and as having begun before the Triforce ever left the Sacred Realm)?

Edited by LionHarted, 14 July 2007 - 01:34 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Even though both Sages explain that their bloodline is apparently signified by possessing the same instrument, and Medli got hers from Prince Komali's grandmother? I smell plothole.

Except that's not true. Medli became the student of Komali's grandmother because she saw her playing the instrument, recognizing her as a Sage.

And Laruto makes it painfully obvious that 'bloodline' is literal.