220 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

As I have said before, the story-writers maintained that OoT was based on the IW.

The story writer called OoT the "Imprisoning War era" when he said that the names of the sages were included as a reference to AoL. The character designer said they were dealing with the IW story, and said that Ganon's design came from this connection.

In TP, no mention is made of a seal. In TWW, which directly follows OoT, Ganon escapes, and the seal is broken.

1) In TP, something had to become of the Sacred Realm.
2) In TWW, Ganon escapes another seal (the "seal of the gods") without breaking it by escaping through a portal. There's no reason he couldn't have done the same with the OoT seal.

And pertaining to the Master Sword, why was it that Ganon needed it gone in order for him to get inside the realm?

Because it was the last key on the Sacred Realm, the entrance to which was in the Temple of Time.

1) When the sages' seal was cast, the Master Sword was not in this position.
2) We never see it in this position ever again in the Adult timeline.
3) We see it in a different position in TWW.

Conclusions:

1) The sages' seal operates independently of the Master Sword in OoT.
2) The Master Sword is no longer a key on the Sacred Realm post-OoT (and necessarily must not be in ALttP, otherwise you shouldn't be able to get in at all prior to obtaining it).
3) The Master Sword is not a key on the Sacred Realm in TWW. It is in a place we've never seen before, connected to a seal we've never heard of before.

-In ALttP it says that the Knights of Hyrule fought Ganon so the sages could imprison him.
-A game called Ocarina of Time is made to represent the Imprisoning War.
-In this game one boy fights Ganon so the sages can imprison him.

Actually, for the sake of accuracy, the Knights of Hyrule "bought time" for the sages to cast their seal in the original story by guarding against the attack against the royal palace. This could have still taken place in OoT.

Edited by LionHarted, 20 July 2007 - 03:46 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

1) You are, however, seeing that Hyrule Castle was totally wiped out. I imagine it would not have gone undefended. Do you?

2) There's no mention of sages sealing Ganon in TWW.

3) No Ganon getting lost is the biggest proof against Ganon from ALttP being in the IW, if the IW is OoT (which the developers say).

1) Good point
2) There is stained glass pictures of those same exact OOT Sages though.
3) No it isn't. You're using another one of your fallacies.

Source?

The entire canon as relevant to LTTP.

Wouldn't know. Haven't seen anyone try.

Except, y'know, Ganon.

What contradiction is there? (besides the ones about what happened to Ganon when he entered the Sacred Realm as told in-game, which I'm suggesting have been disjointed from the war anyway)

Prove it's disjointed from the war. You've yet to do so and your entire argument seems to rely on that.

The Sacred Realm was sealed in OoT by the seven sages. Ganon from OoT was sealed in the Sacred Realm.
Before TWW, Ganon escaped and was later sealed beneath Hyrule, and, in TWW, killed.

Ganondorf was reincarnated in FSA. Ganondorf rediscovered the entrance to the Sacred Realm, but couldn't figure out how to return to the light world (because it was sealed). Ganon, through Agahnim, sends the descendants of the sages to the Dark World in order to use their power to break the seal.

The seal is the result of the Imprisoning War. Ganon is stuck in the Sacred Realm because of the seal.

Except the Imprisoning War was the act of sealing Ganon before LTTP. If he breaks out and does shit in TWW in between and then reincarnates and does shit in FSA (and incarnation of Ganon that never had anything to do with the Triforce, I might add), then it's not the Imprisoning War. NOTHING involving Ganon can go inbetween the IW and the LTTP. Fact. Everyone accepts this except you.

Source that Ganon gets the whole Triforce in the IW?

It's common knowledge we receive from various dialogue in the game.

Ganon needs to touch the whole Triforce to make his wish.

And the Triforce needs to obey him to grant that wish, and if the Triforce obeys them, it does so for their entire life.

Why?

Unless there are three timelines, it's impossible for the IW to happen immediately before ALttP and be completely true, because:

That's only if you assume the OOT is still the IW.

1) The IW began while the Triforce was still in the Sacred Realm from creation;
2) The IW marked the "birth" of Ganon.

1) No it doesn't. Cite your source.
2) So does OOT and FSA. Both games are marked as the "birth" of Ganon.

Except it isn't a separate event.
The story-writers have said so. If they are incorrect, why should we believe there even is a Child Timeline?

Storywriter's quotes don't mean shit if they don't agree with their own works. We can believe there's a Child Timeline because TP and TWW can't coexist in the same timeline.

[CID Farwin]

I find it interesting that everything was responded to except this:

2) In TWW, Ganon escapes another seal (the "seal of the gods") without breaking it by escaping through a portal. There's no reason he couldn't have done the same with the OoT seal.

Which is a VERY good argument.

[Showsni]

2) In TWW, Ganon escapes another seal (the "seal of the gods") without breaking it by escaping through a portal. There's no reason he couldn't have done the same with the OoT seal.

How do you know that? Do you have intimate knowledge of how these seals work? If it was that easy, would Agahnim be gathering up the sages descendants to break the seal?

OoT-IW inconsitencies (a brief sample)

I'll use the Japanese canon, since anyone arguing by American canon has to accept they're different straight away simply thanks to the Master Sword.

So, off the top of my head...

In IW, the sages who cast the seal search for a hero.
In OoT, they don't.

In IW, the sages who cast the seal are mundanely called together by the king (the seventh sage, presumably (as his descendant is Zelda)).
In OoT, they are magically awakenend by the legendary hero.

In IW, the sages who cast the seal search for the existence of the master sword of legend.
In OoT, no one searches for the master sword, and at least one of the sages knows where it is anyway.

In IW, the knights of Hyrule are fighting a bloody battle in the instant the seal is cast.
In OoT, they're not, if they even exist.

In IW, the sages seal the SR.
In OoT, they seal Ganon into the SR.

In IW, Ganon never leaves the SR after entering.
In OoT, he comes out again quite swiftly.

In IW, Hyrule is protected by the knights and not taken over.
In OoT, Hyrule castle falls and up to seven years of rule by Ganon occurs.

In IW, Ganon stumbles across the entrance to the SR by accident.
In OoT, Ganon knows where the entrance is, and manipulates Link into opening it.

In IW, the entrance to the SR has been lost to all.
In OoT, many people know how to acces the SR.

In IW, Ganon fights a bloody fight against his fellow thieves to win the triforce.
In OoT, Ganon almost certainly doesn't. No Gerudo disappear or become hostile to him, and such is their deference that most wouldn't fight him for the triforce anway.

In IW, Ganon's laugh is heard in Hyrule.
In OoT, no one mentions it.

In IW, Ganon claims the whole triforce when he first touches it. It asks for his wish at that time.
In OoT, Ganon receives only ToP. He realises he needs to reunite the pieces to get his wish, and spends the whole of OoT and TWW doing so.

In IW, the sages who cast the seal are all depicted as Hylian males. Their descendants are all Hylian maidens.
In OoT, they come from a wide variety of backgrounds.

In IW, the master sword's very existence is uncertain.
In OoT, it is instantly recognisable even to a fairy from the forest.

And I'm sure there are more...

[LionHarted]

How do you know that?

Because you get around the seal easily enough, I presume that others could too, given the knowledge and capacity.

Do you have intimate knowledge of how these seals work?

Pretty much. Seal traps stuff inside, but there's always a way around.

If it was that easy, would Agahnim be gathering up the sages descendants to break the seal?

"He couldn't figure out how to return to the world of light."

In IW, the sages who cast the seal search for a hero.
In OoT, they don't.

Because you can make this claim, having witnessed what happened during the seven years.
As far as I know, they were all awaiting Link's return.

In IW, the sages who cast the seal are mundanely called together by the king (the seventh sage, presumably (as his descendant is Zelda)).
In OoT, they are magically awakenend by the legendary hero.

I wasn't aware OoT tells us who/what is responsible for the awakening call, other than that it is prophecised.

In IW, the sages who cast the seal search for the existence of the master sword of legend.
In OoT, no one searches for the master sword, and at least one of the sages knows where it is anyway.

See your first claim.

In IW, the knights of Hyrule are fighting a bloody battle in the instant the seal is cast.
In OoT, they're not, if they even exist.

The story I heard was that they defended against the attack on the royal palace, and that this bought time for the sages to cast their seal. Whether that was five minutes, a day, or seven years is really of no consequence.

In IW, the sages seal the SR.
In OoT, they seal Ganon into the SR.

Presumably the operative assumption in not-OoT IW is that Ganon had to have been sealed in the SR.

In IW, Ganon never leaves the SR after entering.
In OoT, he comes out again quite swiftly.

1) He doesn't? Is that a fact?
2) Can you tie the source you're undoubtedly sourcing to the Imprisoning War at all, besides the fact it is featured in ALttP?

In IW, Hyrule is protected by the knights and not taken over.
In OoT, Hyrule castle falls and up to seven years of rule by Ganon occurs.

1) Hyrule is protected by the knights, who perish in battle.
2) Hyrule is inevitably saved by the sages.
3) There is no account for what became of Hyrule outside of these two facts.

In IW, Ganon stumbles across the entrance to the SR by accident.
In OoT, Ganon knows where the entrance is, and manipulates Link into opening it.

Actually, the story I heard was that it was opened completely by chance by thieves.

In IW, the entrance to the SR has been lost to all.
In OoT, many people know how to acces the SR.

Not quite. In ALttP, the location of the entrance has been lost to all.
How many people in OoT know how to access it, outside the royal family?

In IW, Ganon fights a bloody fight against his fellow thieves to win the triforce.
In OoT, Ganon almost certainly doesn't. No Gerudo disappear or become hostile to him, and such is their deference that most wouldn't fight him for the triforce anway.

It's also important to note that they're likely brainwashed.

In IW, Ganon's laugh is heard in Hyrule.
In OoT, no one mentions it.

Glad to see we still can't spot metaphors.

In IW, Ganon claims the whole triforce when he first touches it. It asks for his wish at that time.
In OoT, Ganon receives only ToP. He realises he needs to reunite the pieces to get his wish, and spends the whole of OoT and TWW doing so.

Ganon touches the whole Triforce. In ALttP, he is seen with the whole Triforce.
If the argument is that OoT is the war, and ALttP comes later and separately, then arguing from the not-really-established counter-axioms doesn't get you anywhere, I'm afraid.

In IW, the master sword's very existence is uncertain.
In OoT, it is instantly recognisable even to a fairy from the forest.

Let's presume for a moment that fairies in fantasy aren't traditionally immortal.

Edited by LionHarted, 22 July 2007 - 08:30 AM.

[Fyxe]

Y'know, I find it ironic how people who would previously argue for the IW and OoT connection, which was commonly percieved by most people as pretty much factual, are now turning back to the ancient old IW/OoT 'inconsistencies' argument that some of them were probably arguing against prior to TP.

Especially given the fact that the whole IW/OoT inconsitency thing is the most pointless argument ever. You know why there are some little 'inconsistencies'? Because Ocarina of Time had to be a standalone Zelda game. Of course it's not going to be 101% accurate! The fact that it's even 90 or 99% accurate (depending on your level of bias) to the IW story is fairly remarkable and shows a CLEAR intention to connect the two games.

Playing OoT in context makes it so fucking obvious that both games were intended to have a connection. The OoT plot is SO similar to the IW you'd have to be running around without a goddamn head not to realise it.

Thus the inconsistencies argument is the most utterly meaningless thing ever.

Seriously. I don't usually agree with LionHarted but this has gone too far.

[MikePetersSucks]

The fact that it's even 90 or 99% accurate (depending on your level of bias) to the IW story is fairly remarkable and shows a CLEAR intention to connect the two games.

Oh come on. 90% is a little far.

[Fyxe]

I don't think it is. The major inconsitencies add up to 'the Sages aren't Hylian' which I agree is a mildly valid point if it wasn't for TWW explaining how Sages don't have to be the same species to continue their line, and 'Ganon only gets the ToP' which is fair enough but easily glossed over (therefore adding to around a 10% inconsistency nontheless). The other inconsistencies are trite nonsense like 'where were the Knights of Hyrule', when it's freakin' obvious they were in the castle somewhere doing knightly things and they get killed during the seven years Link is gone. They all add up to the fact that OoT has to be a game in it's own right, it's a retelling of what we thought we knew, and that's the point.

The important factor is that ignoring the obvious and intentional similarities is akin to being an utter doofus of the highest order.

Now, whether it is STILL the IW is another issue, but it always was intended to be and the reason they originally had an open-ended conclusion was so they COULD have it be the IW and still have a sequel like MM and TWW.

Edited by Fyxe, 22 July 2007 - 11:39 AM.

[LionHarted]

It's somewhat of a hypocrisy to say:

The Imprisoning War is OoT. The developers says so; the game supports it.
Then, when evidence that complicates this arises, you maintain it, but say there's a new timeline (which frankly exists for the sole purpose, in your head, of removing the complication).
Then, when evidence arises that complicates your new timeline, you go back on what you said originally, declaring it never possible in the first place.

The developers still said so; the game still supports it; nothing has shown itself to be otherwise. It's just going to have to be more complicated than you want it to be.

I admit this much regarding my views on the single timeline. I failed to take into account that genuine developer statements (not quoted, unfortunately) did exist in 2003 (thinking that they were probably another April Fool's joke courtesy of TSA), and so it wasn't until 2006 that I realized that I had been ignoring this, and that it had been pointless to argue against it.

This is more or less what is happening here, at least, so far as the evidence we do have goes. You [the opposing crowd] can't bear the thought of the relationship between the IW and ALttP being complicated; I couldn't bear the thought of the relationship between OoT and MM/TWW being complicated.

Thank goodness I've learned from that mistake. I'll stick with the developer statements from here on.

Edited by LionHarted, 22 July 2007 - 11:47 AM.

[Showsni]

[quote name='LionHarted' post='348881' date='Jul 22 2007, 02:28 PM'][quote]How do you know that?[/quote]Because you get around the seal easily enough, I presume that others could too, given the knowledge and capacity.[/quote]

You mean, given the Magic Mirror which it's stated only the Hero can use?

[quote][quote]Do you have intimate knowledge of how these seals work?[/quote]

Pretty much. Seal traps stuff inside, but there's always a way around.[/quote]

So explain exactly how you'd cast a magic spell sealing off a dimension. What words would you say? Would spell reagents be necessary? How much MP does it consume?

[quote][quote]If it was that easy, would Agahnim be gathering up the sages descendants to break the seal?[/quote]"He couldn't figure out how to return to the world of light."[/quote]

Well, there you go. You agree he couldn't get out after all, despite just saying he could. Make your mind up.

[quote][quote name='Showsni' post='348868' date='Jul 21 2007, 09:55 PM']In IW, the sages who cast the seal search for a hero.
In OoT, they don't.[/quote]

Because you can make this claim, having witnessed what happened during the seven years.
As far as I know, they were all awaiting Link's return.[/quote]

Have you played OoT? The sages only come together as a group after Link awakens them.

[quote][quote]In IW, the sages who cast the seal are mundanely called together by the king (the seventh sage, presumably (as his descendant is Zelda)).
In OoT, they are magically awakenend by the legendary hero.[/quote]I wasn't aware OoT tells us who/what is responsible for the awakening call, other than that it is prophecised.[/quote]

I was talking about the more hands on awakening Link performs - i.e. Saria says:
"Because of you, I could awaken as a Sage..."
You're referring to the awakening call: "When evil rules all, an awakening voice from the Sacred Realm will call those destined to be Sages..."
You claim this is equivalent to "The king of Hyrule sent for the seven sages living in Hyrule, and the Group of Knights, and ordered them to seal the source of evil."? A mystical prophesised awakening voice is pretty different to clearly mundane messages sent by the king himself. And I shouldn't think it likely the king moved to the SR.

[quote][quote]In IW, the sages who cast the seal search for the existence of the master sword of legend.
In OoT, no one searches for the master sword, and at least one of the sages knows where it is anyway.[/quote]

See your first claim.[/quote]

Again, I reiterate - the sages are only united as a group after the seven years are up. And Rauru knows exactly where the master sword is - he wouldn't need to search for it.

[quote][quote]In IW, the knights of Hyrule are fighting a bloody battle in the instant the seal is cast.
In OoT, they're not, if they even exist.[/quote]

The story I heard was that they defended against the attack on the royal palace, and that this bought time for the sages to cast their seal. Whether that was five minutes, a day, or seven years is really of no consequence.[/quote]

It's pretty obvious on reading the manual that time is of the essence; that the knights are literally fighting to the death as the seal is cast. It's only the seal that saves the castle. I defy anyone to read the manual and believe from that there's a seven year gap in the middle of this sentence: "The Knights had valiantly used their bodies as shields during the fierce attack, and although they unfortunately perished when their strength had exhausted, this had given the Sages time to complete their Seal."

[quote][quote]In IW, the sages seal the SR.
In OoT, they seal Ganon into the SR.[/quote]Presumably the operative assumption in not-OoT IW is that Ganon had to have been sealed in the SR.[/quote]

AlttP is quite clear that it's just the SR being sealed. Ganon isn't even mentioned in the major quote -
"One day evil power began to flow from the Golden Land... So the King commanded seven wise men to seal the gate to the Land of the Golden Power. That seal should have remained for all time..."
versus
"Thanks to you, Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm! Thus, peace will once again reign in this world...for a time."

Also note the IW people had no inkling the seal would ever break, whereas in OoT they seem to know it wouldn't hold for long.


[quote][quote]In IW, Ganon never leaves the SR after entering.
In OoT, he comes out again quite swiftly.[/quote]

1) He doesn't? Is that a fact?
2) Can you tie the source you're undoubtedly sourcing to the Imprisoning War at all, besides the fact it is featured in ALttP?[/quote]

1. Yes.
2. "Several centuries have passed since the Seal War. In Hyrule there was a peace due to the wisdom and faith deep in the people's hearts."

I.e. there has been peace in the few centuries after the IW until the recent floods, drought, famine, etc. If Ganon ever escaped, you can bet there wouldn't be. Of course, luckily, he couldn't figure out how to return to the Light World...

[quote][quote]In IW, Hyrule is protected by the knights and not taken over.
In OoT, Hyrule castle falls and up to seven years of rule by Ganon occurs.[/quote]1) Hyrule is protected by the knights, who perish in battle.
2) Hyrule is inevitably saved by the sages.
3) There is no account for what became of Hyrule outside of these two facts.[/quote]

"The people celebrated their victory; Hyrule had been saved from Ganon's misuse of the Triforce's power."
Saved. Not like in OoT, where it is conquered. Reading the whole story together, from "However, the situation was urgent, and Ganon's malice was enclosing on the royal palace." it's clear that they seal him before his malice actually reaches the palace.

[quote][quote]In IW, Ganon stumbles across the entrance to the SR by accident.
In OoT, Ganon knows where the entrance is, and manipulates Link into opening it.[/quote]

Actually, the story I heard was that it was opened completely by chance by thieves.[/quote]

That's what I said - Guuzen = by chance, unexpectedly, suddenly, by accident, fortuitously. You haven;t argued against my point, in any case.

[quote][quote]In IW, the entrance to the SR has been lost to all.
In OoT, many people know how to acces the SR.[/quote]Not quite. In ALttP, the location of the entrance has been lost to all.
How many people in OoT know how to access it, outside the royal family?[/quote]

That anyone knows instantly makes a contradiction. The royal family knows, it's possible the great Deku tree knows, Impa seems to know, Ganondorf certainly knows an awful lot if not all... But really, just having Zelda know = contradiction with IW.

[quote][quote]In IW, Ganon fights a bloody fight against his fellow thieves to win the triforce.
In OoT, Ganon almost certainly doesn't. No Gerudo disappear or become hostile to him, and such is their deference that most wouldn't fight him for the triforce anway.[/quote]

It's also important to note that they're likely brainwashed.[/quote]

So if they are, he wouldn't need to fight them. You agree with me this is a contradiction?

[quote][quote]In IW, Ganon's laugh is heard in Hyrule.
In OoT, no one mentions it.[/quote]Glad to see we still can't spot metaphors.[/quote]

Luckily this isn't a metaphor.

[quote][quote]In IW, Ganon claims the whole triforce when he first touches it. It asks for his wish at that time.
In OoT, Ganon receives only ToP. He realises he needs to reunite the pieces to get his wish, and spends the whole of OoT and TWW doing so.[/quote]

Ganon touches the whole Triforce. In ALttP, he is seen with the whole Triforce.
If the argument is that OoT is the war, and ALttP comes later and separately, then arguing from the not-really-established counter-axioms doesn't get you anywhere, I'm afraid.[/quote]

What? Please, elucidate. I don't know what you're trying to say.

[quote][quote]In IW, the master sword's very existence is uncertain.
In OoT, it is instantly recognisable even to a fairy from the forest.[/quote]

Let's presume for a moment that fairies in fantasy aren't traditionally immortal.
[/quote]

That... doesn't counter my point at all. In IW, people (especially the sages) don't know where the master sword is. In OoT, Rauru knows it is in the ToT.

[Person]

The Master Sword is what blocks Ganon from getting into the Sacred Realm in OoT, which is why he needs Link to lift it. In the IW, it's a sacred doohicky that kills evil things with no relation to the Sacred Realm at all. The Master Sword has changed roles countless times, but it didn't have anything to do with the SR in the IW backstory. It has a big deal to do with the SR in OoT.

[Arturo]

This argument is utterly ridiculous.

LionHarted, if you have played ALttP, you speak as if you never had. Saying there is more than one Ganon on its backstory is just neglecting the canonic facts, and showing clearly taht yuou don't understand what ALttP is about.
And the inconsistencies between OoT and ALttP, except for the ones mentioned by Fyxe, are very minor, and are irrelevant unless you are a strict canonist, which I am not.

[LionHarted]

Saying there is more than one Ganon on its backstory is just neglecting the canonic facts, and showing clearly taht yuou don't understand what ALttP is about.

Saying OoT isn't the Imprisoning War is just neglecting a canon fact; saying that more than one Ganon exists in ALttP's backstory (one in the war, one who takes the whole Triforce prior to ALttP) simply involves taking advantage of the fact that ALttP never connects the line between ALttP Ganon and the Imprisoning War, as is necessitated at the moment because a direct connection between OoT and ALttP is highly impossible without a third split, which we cannot confirm even remotely yet.

At first, your party did something similar, by saying that "OoT is the IW" was more vague than the obvious implication, that the "in-game events" of OoT were there to serve as the IW. And instead of placing the IW in the Adult Timeline, you moved it to the Child Timeline. Clear neglect of canon. OoT cannot be a treatment of the IW if the sages' seal, its final conclusion is cast outside of what is presented in that game.

That said, ALttP is about conquering the threats unleashed when the Sacred Realm is reopened. Is it really relevant what those threats are? (Since the game seems to ignore the 'fact' that Ganon was the same threat from the IW for its entirety.)

You mean, given the Magic Mirror which it's stated only the Hero can use?

Which it's stated has powers only the hero can master.

Well, there you go. You agree he couldn't get out after all, despite just saying he could.

He (ALttP Ganon) couldn't figure it out.
He (TWW Ganon) could.

TWW Ganon escaped the IW seal, possibly as he did the seal of the gods; ALttP Ganon was not smart enough (perhaps thanks to his loss of humanity?), so he did the brutish thing and broke it.

Have you played OoT? The sages only come together as a group after Link awakens them.

Is this relevant at all?

All that the story said is that the sages searched for a hero. Never said that they did so as a collective group.

I was talking about the more hands on awakening Link performs - i.e. Saria says:
"Because of you, I could awaken as a Sage..."

Link awakens them. He does not send for them. Sheik/Zelda orders him to round them up, because they could not hear the call.

You're referring to the awakening call: "When evil rules all, an awakening voice from the Sacred Realm will call those destined to be Sages..."
You claim this is equivalent to "The king of Hyrule sent for the seven sages living in Hyrule, and the Group of Knights, and ordered them to seal the source of evil."? A mystical prophesised awakening voice is pretty different to clearly mundane messages sent by the king himself. And I shouldn't think it likely the king moved to the SR.

The royal family is in command of the sages, and very capable of performing very advanced forms of magic, as the King of Red Lions demonstrates. Why couldn't they send out an awakening call from the Sacred Realm in times of need?

Again, I reiterate - the sages are only united as a group after the seven years are up. And Rauru knows exactly where the master sword is - he wouldn't need to search for it.

"The sages" neither denotes a group or all of the members of that group; simply more than one member.

It's pretty obvious on reading the manual that time is of the essence; that the knights are literally fighting to the death as the seal is cast.

It's pretty obvious that this is not the only interpretation, especially after OoT's version of the telling presents a much different picture.

AlttP is quite clear that it's just the SR being sealed. Ganon isn't even mentioned in the major quote -
"One day evil power began to flow from the Golden Land... So the King commanded seven wise men to seal the gate to the Land of the Golden Power. That seal should have remained for all time..."
versus
"Thanks to you, Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm! Thus, peace will once again reign in this world...for a time."

Ganon wouldn't be mentioned, if the Ganon who was sealed has nothing to do with ALttP, and it is only the seal that remains. That wouldn't make sense at all, and, in fact, it would all but confirm your interpretation. Notably, none of the in-ALttP references seem to remember that Ganon has anything to do with the seal. He's just the thief who rediscovered it and is now caught in there with the Triforce, trying to destroy you and Hyrule.

Also note the IW people had no inkling the seal would ever break, whereas in OoT they seem to know it wouldn't hold for long.

Actually, they knew that the peace would not remain forever.

Which has very little to do with the seal, and very much to do with the fact that Ganondorf is not the only threat Hyrule has ever faced, and certainly not the only one she will ever face.

1. Yes.
2. "Several centuries have passed since the Seal War. In Hyrule there was a peace due to the wisdom and faith deep in the people's hearts."

1) Citation?
2) This refers to the time "several centuries" after the Seal War. There "was a peace" several centuries since the Seal War. A number of non-peaces could have happened in-between; no peace lasts for fucking hundreds of years without being broken by someone.

"The people celebrated their victory; Hyrule had been saved from Ganon's misuse of the Triforce's power."
Saved. Not like in OoT, where it is conquered.

And then saved.

Reading the whole story together, from "However, the situation was urgent, and Ganon's malice was enclosing on the royal palace." it's clear that they seal him before his malice actually reaches the palace.

You mean it is clear if only the text from that version of the story applies to the facts of it.

That's what I said - Guuzen = by chance, unexpectedly, suddenly, by accident, fortuitously. You haven;t argued against my point, in any case.

Ganondorf was putting a heavy gamble on Link being able to open the Realm. By some wild chance, plus his own wit, he was correct.

That anyone knows instantly makes a contradiction. The royal family knows, it's possible the great Deku tree knows, Impa seems to know, Ganondorf certainly knows an awful lot if not all... But really, just having Zelda know = contradiction with IW.

Unless Ganondorf didn't "rediscover the Sacred Realm after its location had been lost" during the IW, at which time the location had not been lost.
Which is, of course, what I'm arguing.

So if they are, he wouldn't need to fight them. You agree with me this is a contradiction?

I was talking about the Gerudo you encounter at the Fortress, not the ones who would have tried to get in the Sacred Realm before him.

Luckily this isn't a metaphor.

I'm actually tempted to tell you how thick you're being.

What? Please, elucidate. I don't know what you're trying to say.

The theory is that THE TIME GANON ENTERED THE REALM PRIOR TO ALTTP IS NOT THE WAR.
Any of your arguments can be dispelled simply by telling you that providing your picture of events in contrast with mine doesn't disprove my theory; simply proves that yours has no contradiction.

That... doesn't counter my point at all. In IW, people (especially the sages) don't know where the master sword is. In OoT, Rauru knows it is in the ToT.

Rauru is notably in the Sacred Realm, and not leaving anytime soon.

Edited by LionHarted, 23 July 2007 - 08:45 AM.

[Person]

There is one Ganon mentioned in the backstory in both the manual and the game. It is clear that the same Ganon who was sealed is the Ganon of ALttP. Nothing is going to change that. My reasons for believing that OoT is not the IW are twofold:
-TWW
-TP

[LionHarted]

There is one Ganon mentioned in the backstory in both the manual and the game. It is clear that the same Ganon who was sealed is the Ganon of ALttP.

Actually, there is no longer a Ganon mentioned in the manual. All the Ganon references in the war story have been effectively removed. The threat that started the war goes unknown.

Perhaps, and this is my conjecture, this is to suggest that the relevance of his part in the story to the plotline of ALttP is gone? Or, more specifically, that this is a new Ganon, and a new threat?

Edited by LionHarted, 23 July 2007 - 10:10 AM.

[Person]

Ganon was taken out of the manual to remove spoilers. The full story is still told in-game by the maidens.

[LionHarted]

Ganon was taken out of the manual to remove spoilers. The full story is still told in-game by the maidens.

Really? As far as I've read, the story is not that Ganon attacked Hyrule with the Triforce; it's that he simply entered the Sacred Realm and could not return. Once he breaks the seal, he will be able to return. And, as far as I've read, most of the things that were changed were changed specifically to match up with OoT terminology, something that makes very little sense if they're not trying to match up the stories, too.

They could have left it "wise men" if they were referring to a different group of old, wizened sages.

[Person]

Nope. The story about the knights, Triforce, and sages remains in the spoken dialogue, it was just trimmed out of the manual. Changes nothing, really. And about the terminology:

The sages in FSA are female, too. Besides, the "wise men" was a mistranslation, anyway.

[LionHarted]

Nope. The story about the knights, Triforce, and sages remains in the spoken dialogue, it was just trimmed out of the manual.

And was never in the game, and remains not in the game in the remake.

The sages in FSA are female, too. Besides, the "wise men" was a mistranslation, anyway.

Actually, "wise man" is a synonym for "sage."

There were not "sages" in FSA; there were Shrine Maidens, who we interpret perhaps as being descended from the sages.

[Person]

If the knights and the seal are not in the game, then explain these:

Generations ago, an order of
knights protected the Hylian
royalty. These Knights of
Hyrule were also guardians
of the Pendant of Courage.
It has been said that whenever
disaster waylays the royal
family, a Hero shall emerge
from the bloodline of the
Knights of Hyrule...
Unfortunately, most of them
were destroyed in the great
war against evil that took
place when the seven sages
created their seal, so it was
thought that a hero would
never again emerge...

...a doorway to that realm
was suddenly opened...
Hoping to claim the Golden
Power as their own, the people
began to quarrel and fight...
Many sought to enter the
hidden Golden Land...
But none returned, and instead
evil power began to issue
forth from the dark portal...
So the king commanded seven
sages to seal the gate to
the land of the Golden Power.
Many brave knights were lost
in the battle to protect the
sages from the tides of evil,
but the seal was cast! Evil
flowed no more! And the seal
would remain for all time...
Or so the people hoped...

...This world was once the
Golden Land where the Triforce
was hidden.
But because Ganon, the leader
of the thieves, wished it, this
world was transformed...

The one who rediscovered
the Golden Land was
an evil thief named Ganondorf.
Luckily, he couldn't figure out
how to return to the Light
World...

Yeah. Knights/Sages/Ganon story is completely intact in the remake. Anyway, the seven shrine maidens from FSA could be sages. After all, they seal Ganon away at the end of the game.
The aforementioned quotes do not suggest a disjointed narrative. The Ganon in the quotes is the same Ganon of the Imprisoning War.

[Fyxe]

FSA is not the Imprisoning War.

It doesn't match up. If you think it does, you have not played FSA, or you have not read the manual to ALttP or played it.

[LionHarted]

The entire IW-ALttP story can still be contrived from ALttP by assuming all the tales refer to one event, since the game was probably originally structured that way (given that we had no reason to assume otherwise).

However, the story could also be contrived as follows:

1) IW, story of how the Sacred Realm got sealed by the seven sages
2) Ganon, story of the evil thief who rediscovered the sealed realm, stole the Triforce and used the wizard Agahnim to break said seal with the sages' power

Similarly, the TP story could be contrived as consisting of two wars:

1) The war which resulted in the Twili sealing
2) Ganon's invasion of Hyrule

or these could be considered twin halves of the same event.

The games never make it clear.

Edited by LionHarted, 23 July 2007 - 05:42 PM.

[Person]

ALttP does make it clear that Ganon was the one stuck inside the Sacred Realm because he was sealed there. Why couldn't he get out? Because he was sealed there. Anything else is bunk. You have not played the game if you think that the Ganon in the game is not the Ganon of the backstory.

And Fyxe, I do not believe that FSA is the IW in its entirety. I know I have stated that before, but I changed my mind. FSA only accounts for the presence of the Four Sword in Ganon's fortress. Rather, the IW is a mix of OoT and FSA elements. Besides, OoT and the IW don't match up either. The protagonists of the story, the knights, are not even present.

Besides, TP is a flase analogy. Ganon's invasion and the Twili war are made out to be two separate events, because the Twili war accounts for how the Twili Mirror got into the sages' hands.

[CID Farwin]

The protagonists of the story, the knights, are not even present.

Hm.

It has been said that whenever
disaster waylays the royal
family, a Hero shall emerge
from the bloodline of the
Knights of Hyrule...

so..That means that there's a VERY GOOD CHANCE, considering you don't know who his parent's are, that OoT Link is from the bloodline of the Knights.
Taking this into account it is a correct statement to say that the Knights of Hyrule(represented by one of the last in their bloodline) fought against Ganon to delay him enough for the Sages to seal him away.

Is this the only real argument against the OoT-IW connection? because this doesn't seem like that much of a problem.

I do not believe that FSA is the IW in its entirety. I know I have stated that before, but I changed my mind. FSA only accounts for the presence of the Four Sword in Ganon's fortress. Rather, the IW is a mix of OoT and FSA elements.

I STILL DON'T GET THIS! I made a thread to try and figure this one out, but of course it got off track rather quickly. WHAT is it about FSA that makes it so much the Imprisoning War?!

Actually, "wise man" is a synonym for "sage."

not to mention the Japanese word used for both is THE SAME WORD!!!!

Edited by CID Farwin, 24 July 2007 - 12:16 PM.

[LionHarted]

ALttP does make it clear that Ganon was the one stuck inside the Sacred Realm because he was sealed there. Why couldn't he get out? Because he was sealed there.

He couldn't get out because of the seal.

Besides, TP is a flase analogy. Ganon's invasion and the Twili war are made out to be two separate events, because the Twili war accounts for how the Twili Mirror got into the sages' hands.

Nope. We interpret it as such, based on knowledge related to OoT.

[Person]

The IW has similarities to the story in FSA because it has most of the necessary elements. It has the knights fighting off Ganon, dying, and seven sages (maidens) sealing away Ganon. It also features the Sacred Realm.

And any mention of the knights in OoT is pure argument from silence. The knights are mentioned in one dialogue box in the entire game. We have no mention of the knights of Hyrule significantly outside of FSA and ALttP.

[CID Farwin]

The IW has similarities to the story in FSA because it has most of the necessary elements. It has the knights fighting off Ganon, dying, and seven sages (maidens) sealing away Ganon. It also features the Sacred Realm.

Most? *counts* ...That's two.

OoT has:
-Origin of Ganondorf
-Ganondorf becoming Ganon and getting sealed.
-Deals LARGELY with the Sacred Realm.
-A fight with Ganon in which he is sealed.
-Seven sages sealing away Ganon.
-A boy(who there's more than a lttle chance that he's of the bloodline of knights) fighting off Ganon.
-And many more.

Not only does OoT fit better with the IW, it also has the elements that you say make FSA part of the IW.

Edited by CID Farwin, 24 July 2007 - 05:23 PM.

[Person]

FSA has:
-Origins of Ganon
-Ganondorf becoming Ganon and getting sealed
-Sacred Realm
-A fight with Ganon in which he is sealed
-Knights fighting off Ganon and getting killed off in the process
-Seven sages sealing away Ganon
-A boy who inherits the jewels of the knights fighting off Ganon
-The origins of Ganon's trident
-A reason why Ganon has the Four Sword in ALttP
-Ganon who looks identical to his ALttP form
-Shared geographical locations with ALttP
-A possible origins for the portals to the Dark World
-A possible origin for the moon pearls

Enough?

[CID Farwin]

-Shared geographical locations with ALttP

hehehe...*falls on ground*..BWAHAHAHAHAHA! HAHA! Ha Ha Ha
Oh, wait, you're actually being serious about this one? *giggle* the map of OoT is EXACTLY the same as the one in ALttP! FSA map? not.

-A boy who inherits the jewels of the knights fighting off Ganon

This has WHAT association with the Imprisoning War?

-The origins of Ganon's trident

[sarcasm]"Origins," riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.[/sarcasm]

-A fight with Ganon in which he is sealed

Incomplete Idea. "in which he is sealed"--inside the four sword.

*gets serious*

-Seven sages sealing away Ganon

Again, in the four sword. ALttP makes it pretty clear that Ganon is in the Dark World. And anyway, how would the Triforce get in there?

-A possible origins for the portals to the Dark World
-A possible origin for the moon pearls

I'll give you that one. except in ALttP they have no connection.

-Knights fighting off Ganon and getting killed off in the process

does fit literal ALttP backstory, yes.

-Ganon who looks identical to his ALttP form

Alas, if only there was Ganon such as this in 3-D. Still doesn't say much, though, Ganon is Ganon(except for TP)

-A reason why Ganon has the Four Sword in ALttP

Wha? ALttP goes with FS, not FSA. Which actually means BEFORE FSA.

-Origins of Ganon
-Ganondorf becoming Ganon and getting sealed
-Sacred Realm

Ties with OoT.

So let me get this straigt,

the IW is a mix of OoT and FSA elements.

so both OoT and FSA create the Imrisoning War, yet LionHarted is a moron for saying there is two Ganons/Ganondorfs.

There is one Ganon mentioned in the backstory in both the manual and the game. It is clear that the same Ganon who was sealed is the Ganon of ALttP.

Yet OoT and FSA ential different Ganons/Ganondorfs, only one of which is in ALttP. So either: 1.OoT is in entirely the IW, or not at all, or 2. You're just a hypocrite.

Edited by CID Farwin, 24 July 2007 - 04:57 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

-Sacred Realm

Where? If you say "Dark World" that's not necessarily proof, since the Dark World is a post-IW phenomena.