220 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

Oh, you mean a castle that was artistically inspired by the TWW castle? Art style proves absolutely nothing. You really think that the TWW castle survived being destroyed by tons of water being pured down on it in TWW?

At one time argued that FSA took place between OoT and TWW beacuse of that. It's still possible I guess.

[LionHarted]

Oh, you mean a castle that was artistically inspired by the TWW castle?

Yeah.
Like the grove that was artistically inspired by the ALttP grove?

[Person]

The grove is in the Lost Woods. A couple of hundred years ago, the Lost Woods were the Temple of Time. By showing us this detail, it's like the devs were saying "That's how the MS got into the Lost Woods." If the connection had not been made, then it would have been a mere artistic inspiration. The same cannot be said for the FSA castle.

[LionHarted]

The grove is in the Lost Woods. A couple of hundred years ago, the Lost Woods were the Temple of Time.

The TP woods are to the south.
The ALttP Lost Woods are in the northwest, and aren't even Lost Woods until Ganon attempts to transform them with the power of darkness.

By showing us this detail, it's like the devs were saying "That's how the MS got into the Lost Woods."

By showing us the TWW castle in FSA, it's like the devs were saying "That's because FSA takes place after TWW."

[Person]

The TP woods are to the south.
The ALttP Lost Woods are in the northwest, and aren't even Lost Woods until Ganon attempts to transform them with the power of darkness.

Geography is irrelevant. The ToT is in the wrong spot in TP, and nobody shouts about that.

By showing us the TWW castle in FSA, it's like the devs were saying "That's because FSA takes place after TWW."

Even if FSA happens after TWW, do you honestly think that the castle wasn't destroyed in the deluge? Nevermind that the kingdom was destroyed, let's just keep the castle intact! It's an artistic choice, to go along with the cel-shaded look of the game. It's actually more simialar to the ALttP castle in the actual game, world map notwithstanding.

[LionHarted]

Geography is irrelevant. The ToT is in the wrong spot in TP, and nobody shouts about that.

The ToT is in two games.
The Lost Woods are in four, and featured consistently in sets of two, with each version having its own history (OoT=home of the Kokiri; FSA=home of the Dekus, transformed by Ganon).

Even if FSA happens after TWW, do you honestly think that the castle wasn't destroyed in the deluge? Nevermind that the kingdom was destroyed, let's just keep the castle intact!

A kingdom is a social construct. Hyrule Kingdom being filled with water will not wash away the physical space it occupied.

I didn't see Ganon's Tower get destroyed in the deluge.

[Person]

The Lost Woods are in these games:
-LoZ: A simple repeating screen in the middle of the map.
-ALttP: A misty forest, resting place of the Master Sword
-OoT: Home of the Kokiri
-OoS:In Holodrum, probably a branch of the Hyrulean Lost Woods
-TWW: Forest Haven and Forbidden Forest are probably the remains fo the old Lost Woods
-FSA: Same spot as ALttP, evil forest and home of the Dekus
-TMC:Home of the Minish
-TP: Misty forest and resting place of the Master Sword.

The Temple of Time is still in the wrong spot. It's geographically closer to where the OoT Lost Woods would be, whereas it should be right next to Hyrule Castle. Therefore, geography is irrelevant.

As for the castle, the kingdom was washed away. If the kingdom was simply a social construct, why would it need a flood to destroy it? It had a population of two before, because everybody else had already moved on to the mountains. THe king's wish was to destroy the land of Hyrule, not the social construct. And yes, Gonon's Tower was destroyed in the Deluge. We see water come tumbling down, and then everything else is murky. If the initial blast didn't topple it, the water would erode its foundations and send it tumbling down. The same for the castle. The FSA castle, no matter where you place it in the timeline, is different from the TWW castle.

[LionHarted]

The "Lost Woods" (Hyrule) are in four games:
LoZ, ALttP, OoT, FSA.

The movement between ALttP and OoT is not a retcon; they appear in the exact same place in FSA, released years after OoT, and are given an entirely different origin story.

The movement of the Temple of Time, on the other hand, goes entirely without explanation, yet its origins remain largely the same (with the Oocca factor added in). I reckon it's a retcon.

If the initial blast didn't topple it, the water would erode its foundations and send it tumbling down.

Because, of course, this happens all the time in Zelda, despite underwater temples appearing in almost every game to date.

Edited by LionHarted, 28 July 2007 - 10:49 PM.

[CID Farwin]

The movement between ALttP and OoT is not a retcon; they appear in the exact same place in FSA, released years after OoT, and are given an entirely different origin story.

I was under the impression that the wooded area behind Hyrule Castle in Oot was the ALttP Lost Woods. And if you look at things relatively; the Eastern Palace from ALttP, the Forest Temple from OoT, and the Temple of Time from TP seem to be in similar locations.

And the Castle/Ganon's tower were destroyed in the flood, because that's what the wish was for(if only in part.)

[Jumbie]

The Lost Woods are in these games:
-TMC:Home of the Minish

That one isn't true. The Minish Woods are never associated to Lost Woods. They consist mostly of fir trees, unlike the woods in any other Zelda game. They have no aspect of being dangerous to travellers. They're simply another forest in Hyrule we weren't shown before TMC.

However, there are actually Lost Woods in TMC, namely in front of the graveyard. They are even named that, and they look and work like the Lost Woods in LoZ.
It couldn't be made any clearer than this, that the Lost Woods are not a location name but a type of forest.
Much like the Ents' woods in LotR that pop up at Helm's Deep, the Lost Woods can pop up anywhere in Hyrule because they are formed by mysterious and magical plants.

The Temple of Time is still in the wrong spot. It's geographically closer to where the OoT Lost Woods would be, whereas it should be right next to Hyrule Castle.

Yes, if TP's map were halfway accurate, it should have the Temple of Time ruins right on Eldin horsebattle field.

I was under the impression that the wooded area behind Hyrule Castle in Oot was the ALttP Lost Woods.

That is definitely true.

And if you look at things relatively; the Eastern Palace from ALttP, the Forest Temple from OoT, and the Temple of Time from TP seem to be in similar locations.

Personally I have always equated the Eastern Temple with the Forest Temple. Same spot, similar architecture, similar dungeon layout.
Things get tough with TP's Temple of Time though. Unfortunately it can't be OoT's Forest Temple.

[SOAP]

[quote name='LionHarted' post='350541' date='Jul 29 2007, 03:08 AM']By showing us the TWW castle in FSA, it's like the devs were saying "That's because FSA takes place after TWW."[/quote]

Even I know that's not possible.


[quote name='Person' post='350548' date='Jul 29 2007, 03:43 AM']The same for the castle. The FSA castle, no matter where you place it in the timeline, is different from the TWW castle.[/quote]
How about before TWW? Or more interestingly, parallel to TWW in the child timeline with FSA being what TWW would've been if Hyrule was never flooded. Which is what I initially thought anyways before TP came out.

[quote name='Jumbie' post='350564' date='Jul 29 2007, 05:02 AM']The Temple of Time is still in the wrong spot. It's geographically closer to where the OoT Lost Woods would be, whereas it should be right next to Hyrule Castle.[/quote]Yes, if TP's map were halfway accurate, it should have the Temple of Time ruins right on Eldin horsebattle field.
[/quote]
I still say that that strange stone formation you see in Eldin feild are the remenants of the Temple of Time's fundation before it was lifted up and tossed into Lost Woods, probably ontop of the Forest Temple. We've seen huge manmade structures teleported by the Twili from one part of Hyrule to another before in TP. They or someone else probably moved the temple there at a much earlier time so that it was not as easily accessible.

As a side note, something about the TP Temple of Time reminds me of the entior of TWW Hyrule Castle....

[LionHarted]

And if you look at things relatively; the Eastern Palace from ALttP, the Forest Temple from OoT, and the Temple of Time from TP seem to be in similar locations.

Aside from the Temple of Time in TP being on the opposite side of the map.

[Person]

The ToT was not "lifted" or "moved." The devs just arbitrarily decided to put it near where the OoT Lost Woods are supposed to be. What would be the point, except to explain why the MS is in the Lost Woods in ALttP?

[LionHarted]

What would be the point, except to explain why the MS is in the Lost Woods in ALttP?

To put it somewhere more obscure than Castle Town.

[SOAP]

The ToT was not "lifted" or "moved." The devs just arbitrarily decided to put it near where the OoT Lost Woods are supposed to be. What would be the point, except to explain why the MS is in the Lost Woods in ALttP?

Yes it was.

[Person]

Give me one reference to suggest that the ToT was ever moved.

It's geography, which changes as the creators see fit.

[SOAP]

The remnants of what look like a building in the same general location it was in OoT. And more than one precedent of man-made structures being moved from one location to another through magic (the two bridges in TP by the Twili).

Edited by SOAP, 29 July 2007 - 04:26 PM.

[CID Farwin]

The remnants of what look like a building in the same general location it was in OoT.

Isn't that around the same place where Link and Zelda dissapear and get the Light Arrows? You know, when I say that they go to the Sacred Realm.

Aside from the Temple of Time in TP being on the opposite side of the map.

What?

Things get tough with TP's Temple of Time though. Unfortunately it can't be OoT's Forest Temple.

It can't, no. But it's in the exact same spot!

[Person]

But it's called the Temple of Time, not the Forest Temple. Once again, geography proves to be irrelevant.

[Jumbie]

The ToT was not "lifted" or "moved." The devs just arbitrarily decided to put it near where the OoT Lost Woods are supposed to be. What would be the point, except to explain why the MS is in the Lost Woods in ALttP?

Hmm... Recently I came across something really interesting on some forum. I just kept the relevant quote by Cendamos. He's a fan very famous/notorious for hacking OoT. (To avoid confusion: in this quote he speaks only about OoT, not TP.)

The Temple of Time has an exit to the Sacred Meadow, but the Sacred Meadow does not have one to the ToT. However it has one to the 'item debug' stage. Further investigation leads to the fact that the Forest Temple ALSO has an exit to the 'item debug stage' which leads to the idea that the orginal ToT, acted as a gateway into our Forest Temple. The ToT also has an exit to a stage which crashes. I do not know where it orginally led.

It sounds confusing, but from what I gather, the Temple of Time in OoT's Beta version was originally meant to be put where they later put the Forest Temple. In connection to TP, this raises quite a few questions, or no?

Also, remember this suspicious beta screen of OoT:
 Z64_Tempel_der_Zeit3.jpg   6.59K   27 downloads

The remnants of what look like a building in the same general location it was in OoT.

Isn't that around the same place where Link and Zelda dissapear and get the Light Arrows? You know, when I say that they go to the Sacred Realm.

...Wow! Hehe, cool.

[Fyxe]

It's only cool if you love pulling assumptions out of thin air.

Anyway, that beta screenshot is painfully blurred, terrible quality. It certainly doesn't look like the Sacred Forest Meadow. Just looks like an early pre-rendered area. Not sure if what he found about exits necessarily means anything either. Just because two areas have exits to a debug area doesn't mean they're connected.

[LionHarted]

Why can't the Forest Temple be the Forest Temple?

[Person]

For once, I actually agree with you, LionHarted. The two temples aren't connected, and beta screens are non-canon anyway.

[Jumbie]

It's only cool if you love pulling assumptions out of thin air.

I do. Most of us, actually.

Anyway, that beta screenshot is painfully blurred, terrible quality.

It's the only beta screen of this area that I've seen. And you know, half of all the OoT beta screens are of this quality and size.

It certainly doesn't look like the Sacred Forest Meadow.

Of course it doesn't look like the Meadow, but like the place where the Temple of Time stands in Castle Town. But consider that they could've just relocated this whole area, I mean all that we see in this screen, from the woods to the town, and created as a substitute the Sacred Meadow that we came to know.

Just looks like an early pre-rendered area.

One can tell by the item buttons that this screen is from the second-to-last production stage of OoT, so it must have been a last minute change, also reinforced by that they failed to remove those secret area exits from the game code.

Overall it's a huge hint as to why the Temple of Time could've been put into the forest in TP - maybe the supposed retcon was not in TP but actually in OoT's final version.

Why can't the Forest Temple be the Forest Temple?

You know how in the developers' concepts several places can merge, overlap, or replace each other? That's why.

And then (referring to the Eastern Temple), also because the idea that there are a bazillion different temples in Hyrule, when some of them could actually be the same, only redesigned, is getting terribly on my nerves.

Edited by Jumbie, 30 July 2007 - 11:49 AM.

[LionHarted]

You know how in the developers' concepts several places can merge, overlap, or replace each other?

1) Merge: in FSA, the "Forest Temple" is not the Eastern Temple (it is the Temple of Darkness after Ganon has conquered the forest). Both exist in FSA.
2) Overlap: in FSA, the Eastern Temple looks nothing like OoT's Forest Temple.
3) Replace: the Eastern Temple, not OoT's Forest Temple, is in FSA.

Edited by LionHarted, 30 July 2007 - 11:51 AM.

[CID Farwin]

Except for, you know, FSA was meant to be like ALttP, and not OoT.

I do. Most of us, actually.

That's how I theorize. I take a Hypothetical(Let's say x is true,) and see if it pans out. If it does, then that's my new theory.

Overall it's a huge hint as to why the Temple of Time could've been put into the forest in TP - maybe the supposed retcon was not in TP but actually in OoT's final version.

So basically, it's possible that the reason that TP's ToT is in the forest is not timeline related but merely just what they were origionally planning for OoT. Interesting...

One can tell by the item buttons that this screen is from the second-to-last production stage of OoT, so it must have been a last minute change, also reinforced by that they failed to remove those secret area exits from the game code.

Last minute change, like one of Myamoto's infamous 'upending the table' moments probably.

Ineresting side note here: the sword and action buttons are switched here, and the action button says 'Teekku' or 'take'[/interesting side note]

And beta-stages can't just be discarded; they're the best source of the creators' intent.

...Wow! Hehe, cool.

I know! I love it when I have a theory and then something else comes along to support it, when there's still no evidence against it.

Edited by CID Farwin, 30 July 2007 - 12:09 PM.

[Jumbie]

So basically, it's possible that the reason that TP's ToT is in the forest is not timeline related but merely just what they were origionally planning for OoT. Interesting...

That's what I wanted everyone to see, yes. A shame that most have already jumped to arms against it.

Ineresting side note here: the sword and action buttons are switched here, and the action button says 'Teekku' or 'take'[/interesting side note]

Yes, the button-switching was the main characteristic of the second-to-last OoT stage. Strangely, the same thing goes for a beta of TWW... Why would they try switching buttons in each game, if they never follow through anyway?

And beta-stages can't just be discarded; they're the best source of the creators' intent.

True. So so many things from OoT's beta were only put to use in TP (sword on horse, horse reed, Link's clothing colour...).

Edited by Jumbie, 30 July 2007 - 01:08 PM.

[Person]

They're still non-canon. Beta stages may show creator intent, but ultimatley the final version is what we should go by. In OoT, the ToT is in the town, in TP, it's in the forest. What do we say now? The ToT in the town isn't the "real" ToT? Jeez.

I say beta stages are non-canon in any situation, in the game code or not. Also, that beta stage really doen't look like the final version of the ToT.

Final version is canon in all situations.

[Jumbie]

They're still non-canon. Beta stages may show creator intent, but ultimatley the final version is what we should go by. In OoT, the ToT is in the town, in TP, it's in the forest. What do we say now? The ToT in the town isn't the "real" ToT? Jeez.

No, we can't possibly say it because of what a resident of Castle Town says:

Do you know about the Temple of Time that we have in the northeast part of town?
Legends say that the Temple of Time is the entrance to the Sacred Realm... Did you know that?

I have wondered about this for a long time: If geography is irrelevant but game text is relevant, then what about geography described by game text? If a chara says, "This place is located next to that place", and another game visually makes it seem that it isn't so, don't we have a nice contradiction of canon there?
I really like to know, I don't think that has been clarified before.

[Fyxe]

It hasn't been clarified because it's a pretty damn stupid thing to bother clarifying, quite frankly. o.o

It's only cool if you love pulling assumptions out of thin air.

I do. Most of us, actually.

Then 'most of us' are stupid as hell.

It's the only beta screen of this area that I've seen. And you know, half of all the OoT beta screens are of this quality and size.

I've seen a better quality in an old magazine somewhere, maybe I should scan it someday.

Of course it doesn't look like the Meadow, but like the place where the Temple of Time stands in Castle Town. But consider that they could've just relocated this whole area, I mean all that we see in this screen, from the woods to the town, and created as a substitute the Sacred Meadow that we came to know.

What are you ON about? It clearly looks like an early version of the area that we see in the final game. It looks crappier and doesn't have the Gossip Stones, and the camera angle is different. That's pretty much all.

Overall it's a huge hint as to why the Temple of Time could've been put into the forest in TP - maybe the supposed retcon was not in TP but actually in OoT's final version.

How on earth is it a hint to that at all? It seems you're trying to link entirely unconnected tidbits of vague beta information to create some kind of interwoven tapestry, but you're only seeing those connections because you want to.

And then (referring to the Eastern Temple), also because the idea that there are a bazillion different temples in Hyrule, when some of them could actually be the same, only redesigned, is getting terribly on my nerves.

Whether you like it or not, there ARE a bazillion different temples in Hyrule. Hell, TLoZ, which takes place in a fairly small Death Mountain region, has about six ruins and three more dungeons aside.

Even dungeons that have the same name can't necessarily be the same place. The Shadow Temple, despite having the same name as the Palace of Darkness, obviously can't be the same place.