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#121 Raien

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 12:29 PM

Prettttty sure Zant tried to call himself the same, and that Vaati was at first perceived to be the "King of Darkness" (Ganon's title).


They tried to assert that the Dark World was their dominion, but it was established that Ganon was the true "maou".

#122 LionHarted

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 02:27 AM

Right, but it goes to show that the role isn't as exclusive as that, at least not in the eyes of the people (and therefore probably not in reality).

#123 Jumbie

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 01:00 PM

Ganon is a *generic* Maou, but at the same time the *only* Maou in the Zelda world.


Prettttty sure Zant tried to call himself the same


The same? Not Maou, no. In the NoA version, Midna does call Zant the "King of Darkness", but that is a mistranslation. Japanese says here "King of Shadow" ("Shadow" is an abbreviation for the Shadow World (= Twilight Realm)).
The Japanese TP does not use "King of Darkness" anywhere in the game.

Vaati was at first perceived to be the "King of Darkness" (Ganon's title).


Yes, until the Dekus revealed that it refers to Ganon. But what is your point? That fact only emphasizes that anyone can bear the title "King of Darkness" and Ganon doesn't hold copyright on it.

"Maou (Demon King)", on the other hand, is not a mere title. It connotes a position, a profession, a unique entity. A Maou generally needs two things: his own Makai (Demon World) and his own Mazoku (Demon Tribe). Ganon has both. Vaati never has either. And Zant... well, he plays in a much lower league, already by terminology.

They tried to assert that the Dark World was their dominion, but it was established that Ganon was the true "maou".


In fact, the word Maou appears in FSA exactly once: before the final fight, when Ganon refers to himself as the "Demon King of Darkness" (Yami no Maou).
Obviously this is a merge of his title (King of Darkness) and his entity (Maou), and has in that same form already been used in ALttP by a Maiden.

Right, but it goes to show that the role isn't as exclusive as that, at least not in the eyes of the people (and therefore probably not in reality).


You are confusing "Maou" with "Yami no Ou". I've just given some explanations, that should help.


And now, in view of the occasion, a little summary of Ganon's names throughout the games:

LoZ manual: 大魔王 (Dai Maou) = Great Demon King
AoL manual: -no title given-
ALttP manual: 邪悪の王 (jaaku no ou) = evil king
ALttP in-game: 闇の魔王 (Yami no Maou) = Demon King of Darkness
OoT: ()魔王 ((Dai) Maou) = (Great) Demon King
FSA: - 闇の王 (Yami no Ou) = King of Darkness
- 闇の魔王 (Yami no Maou) = Demon King of Darkness
TP: 大魔王 (Dai Maou) = Great Demon King


As you can see, no game except FSA uses more than one name for Ganon.

"Jaaku no ou" in ALttP's manual is actually the only instance in the entire series where NoA's commonly used "Evil King" is appropriate. That wording never reappeared anywhere else though, so it can be neglected.

What regards TP, the description "Dai Maou" only appears before the swordfight with Ganondorf.
Of course he earlier referred to himself as the "king that rules light and shadow", but that is quite obviously not a title.

I'm really curious about TWW, where the King of Red Lions calls Ganon the "emperor of the dark realm". Unfortunately the Japanese TWW textdump isn't available yet.

Edited by Jumbie, 18 December 2007 - 01:05 PM.


#124 Fyxe

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 04:41 PM

Thanks for that post Jumbie, it's interesting to actually get a carefully defined definition of Ganon's title in most of the games. Having TWW would be very helpful though.

It's a shame most people aren't aware of Ganon's status as a 'Demon King'. 'Demon' of course isn't entirely the right word, since 魔 doesn't exactly relate to the traditional western idea of a demon, due to it's Christian connotations. Still, it's the closest word anyone can probably find.

#125 LionHarted

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 07:14 PM

You are confusing "Maou" with "Yami no Ou". I've just given some explanations, that should help.


I'm aware that the Japanese terms are not synonymous, but the context is the same nonetheless. Vaati is believed to be the one sapping power from Hyrule; Vaati is the one believed by the maidens to be the king of darkness destined to hold the trident which contains the soul of the demon (some interpretation inserted here, admittedly, in the case of the demon soul). In fact, until the discovery of Ganon's identity as the king of darkness, it is believed that Vaati is responsible for everything and what would extend to the Dark World. Zant, too, believes himself to be the king of darkness... the one destined to carry the power of darkness, when in fact this falls to Ganondorf, who is leasing Zant his powers in order to conquer Hyrule by stealth.

The title of "demon king" is only applied, I must note, in those cases where such a being is directly observed.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 December 2007 - 07:14 PM.


#126 Jumbie

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 09:24 PM

Thanks for that post Jumbie, it's interesting to actually get a carefully defined definition of Ganon's title in most of the games. Having TWW would be very helpful though.


Glad you appreciate it^^ I guess Oracles, too, might be of interest, but not available...

It's a shame most people aren't aware of Ganon's status as a 'Demon King'. 'Demon' of course isn't entirely the right word, since 魔 doesn't exactly relate to the traditional western idea of a demon, due to it's Christian connotations. Still, it's the closest word anyone can probably find.


Exactly right. "Devil" would be another option, considering that Ganondorf is comparable to the maou in Christianity, Satan, who also started out as a.. well, not as a Gerudo but as an angel, but well.. still as a different being from what he ended up as. I see it as justifiable to view Ganon as a counterpart of Satan in the Zelda world.

I'm aware that the Japanese terms are not synonymous, but the context is the same nonetheless. Vaati is believed to be the one sapping power from Hyrule; Vaati is the one believed by the maidens to be the king of darkness destined to hold the trident which contains the soul of the demon (some interpretation inserted here, admittedly, in the case of the demon soul). In fact, until the discovery of Ganon's identity as the king of darkness, it is believed that Vaati is responsible for everything and what would extend to the Dark World.


All true of course, but unfortunately, it's all only relevant to the use of "King of Darkness", and not to the use of "Demon King".
While "demon (= ma)" does come up when FSA talks about the trident, this is just as close to Vaati the Ma-Jin as to Ganon the Ma-Ou. With that I just want to express that no one in the Zelda world besides Ganon has ever been, or perceived as being, a Maou.

Zant, too, believes himself to be the king of darkness... the one destined to carry the power of darkness, when in fact this falls to Ganondorf, who is leasing Zant his powers in order to conquer Hyrule by stealth.


Ehm.. I think I told you that Zant comprehends his role very well in Japanese, namely as the King of Shadows.

The title of "demon king" is only applied, I must note, in those cases where such a being is directly observed.


That may be true, but nonetheless it has never been applied to anyone but Ganon!
And when all the world had long forgotten about the term Maou (in FSA), it is Ganon himself who brings to our attention that he is the Maou.

#127 Raien

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 06:38 PM

Jumbie, I don't know if you can clarify this as of yet, but is it more likely that every incarnation of Ganon is the same soul reincarnated, or is every incarnation a different soul reforming the same character (like Link and Zelda)?

Edited by jhurvid, 20 December 2007 - 06:41 PM.


#128 Duke Serkol

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 08:45 PM

I would not say we know this for certain about anyone really... though of course Link's undead teacher in TP could be considered to heavily suggest otherwise.

#129 Kairu Hakubi

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 01:38 PM

Then again, wasn't Koopa referred to as Daimaou Koopa in the original Super Mario Bros? ^_^' that kinda sucks a bit of evil credibility away from that title.

#130 Jumbie

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 04:49 PM

Then again, wasn't Koopa referred to as Daimaou Koopa in the original Super Mario Bros? ^_^' that kinda sucks a bit of evil credibility away from that title.


Huh no idea, I've never seen the Japanese manual of SMB... Is it available somewhere?

#131 Fyxe

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 11:41 AM

It's true.

http://themushroomki...t/smb_j-e.shtml

However, Bowser IS a daimaou; while he has been comic relief in some games, he's still a proper villain with magic powers in the main ones. Just play Super Mario Galaxy and try and suggest he isn't anything but awesome. XP

#132 Prime Blue

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 11:12 AM

I just wondered: Could the Japanese name of Mabe Village, メーベのむら (Mēbe no Mura), be a word borrowed from German? I've seen the German letter 'ö' transliterated to an 'e' in Japanese before, and the 'be' could very well be a 'we'.
Therefore, it could be that メーベ is the Japanese katakana form of the German word "Möwe", which means sea gull. I figured it would be a lot more likely with the whole Marin becoming a sea gull thing. Plus, the German version of the game has the name as "Mövendorf" (a less commonly used form of "Möwe", one instance also names it "Möwendorf), meaning "Seagull Village".

#133 Jumbie

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 06:19 PM

I just wondered: Could the Japanese name of Mabe Village, メーベのむら (Mēbe no Mura), be a word borrowed from German? I've seen the German letter 'ö' transliterated to an 'e' in Japanese before, and the 'be' could very well be a 'we'.
Therefore, it could be that メーベ is the Japanese katakana form of the German word "Möwe", which means sea gull. I figured it would be a lot more likely with the whole Marin becoming a sea gull thing. Plus, the German version of the game has the name as "Mövendorf" (a less commonly used form of "Möwe", one instance also names it "Möwendorf), meaning "Seagull Village".


Wow, that makes perfect sense, you're a genius! Definitely, 'ö' should become 'e'. And if you google メーベ, you'll get to see something with big white wings ;)

#134 Prime Blue

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 07:51 PM

The Minish Cap/The Mysterious Hat: Ending

こうして リンク のはじめての 冒険は おわりました
しかし これからも リンク に ゼルダにハイラルに さまざまなできごとが おとずれるでしょう
そう ものがたりは つづいていくのです
フォースの みちびきが あるかぎり?

Thus Link's first adventure ended.
But hereafter, many kinds of occurences will perhaps come to Link and Zelda in Hyrule.
So, the story goes on.
As long as there is the Force's guidance...


Correct the wrong passages, Jumbie...

Edited by Prime Blue, 14 January 2008 - 07:51 PM.


#135 Nameless_Joe

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 09:30 PM

The Minish Cap/The Mysterious Hat: Ending
Thus Link's first adventure ended.


This could apply specifically to the Four Swords sub-series (if the narrator was commenting specifically upon it)...



Has anyone given attention to the Japanese version of Shad's rendition of the 'Sky Beings' story in TP? (The one that states the Hylians were created by the Oocca?)


Question not strictly related to translation: Could the City in the Sky have been inspired by the Miyazaki film Laputa: Castle in the Sky?

Edited by Nameless_Joe, 23 January 2008 - 09:35 PM.


#136 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 10:19 PM

Uh, yea, sure, that and every other airborne city ever to arise in fiction. It's a common trope, just like Atlantis.

#137 Jumbie

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 03:46 PM

The Minish Cap/The Mysterious Hat: Ending
Thus Link's first adventure ended.


This could apply specifically to the Four Swords sub-series (if the narrator was commenting specifically upon it)...


I doubt it. To begin with, I don't see such a strong connection between TMC and FS/A, and any need to separate FS from the rest was discarded by Ganon's appearance in FSA.

Has anyone given attention to the Japanese version of Shad's rendition of the 'Sky Beings' story in TP? (The one that states the Hylians were created by the Oocca?)


Good question! This being one of the most important quotes in TP, I already began translating the first lines of it, but so far it seems to agree with NoA's rendition. I should finish that now, I guess... :)

Question not strictly related to translation: Could the City in the Sky have been inspired by the Miyazaki film Laputa: Castle in the Sky?


I haven't seen the film so I can't judge, but as far as names are concerned:
TP's City in the Sky = 天空都市 = Tenkuu Toshi
Laputa's Castle in the Sky = 天空の城 = Tenkuu no Shiro

#138 Jumbie

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 06:40 PM

Okay then, here comes Shad's tale about the Sky People. This passage was a real treat! :) Actually it turned out differently than I expected in my last post - so many differences to the NoA version have rarely been found. But it's excusable since this text was of the really hard kind. In any case, I guess this might finally end bad nightmares of a lot of theorists:

ボクが今、一番 興味を持っているのは 天空人の伝説さ
What I'm currently most interested in, is the legend of the sky people.

At the moment I'm absolutely entranced by the sky beings known as the Oocca.

ハイラルは最も神に近い種族のハイリア人が創ったってのが通説だけど
The common opinion is that Hyrule was created by the Hylia people, the race closest to the gods, but…

Yes, according to legend, Hyrule was made by the Hylians, who, as we all know, are the closest race to the gods.

実は大昔には、ハイリア人よりもっと神に近い種族がいて、彼らが創った という説もあるんだ
…truth be told, there's also a theory saying that in ancient times there was a race even closer to the gods than the Hylia people, and THEY created it.

But also according to legend, long ago there was a race even closer to the gods, and some say THESE creatures made the Hylians.

そして彼らは、ハイリア人の誕生とともに 新しい都を創り、都ごと天に浮かべて そこで暮らし始めたらしい
And they, simultaneously with the birth of the Hylia people, created a new capital, a capital that floated in the heavens.

When they created the people of Hylia, they simultaneously created a new capital, a city that floated in the heavens.

しかも学者の間では、今でも彼らは大空の何処かに浮かぶ都で 生きているって言われてる
Moreover, there is talk between scholars that they still live with the floating capital somewhere in the great sky.

They dwelt there...and some scholars believe that this race lives there still, somewhere in the great sky.

天空人・・・素敵だよね 是非、お会いしてみたいよ
Sky people… That's great, isn't it? By all means, I really want to try and meet them!

Sky beings… Isn't that simply marvelous, old boy? What I wouldn't give to meet them!


Notes:
- The name "Oocca" is not in the Japanese game. Instead they are called the "sky people". One could capitalize that as a proper name.
- I couldn't determine any unambiguous meaning of "closest to the gods". In Japanese as in English, "closest" can either refer to local/spiritual proximity, or to similar properties/abilities. We cannot tell which is meant here...
- The fact that Shad doesn't really speak of the Hylia in present tense here, is merely due to my choice to omit an unneeded "are". The people in TP can still be Hylians.
- Japanese doesn't say that the sky people created the Hylians. The latter are not the object of that sentence. Instead the sky people created something that isn't specified in this sentence, and we therefore are to understand that "created" still refers to the topic of the previous sentence, the land of Hyrule. This makes much more sense storyline-wise, anyway.
- Also in the following phrase, the idea of Hylians being created by the sky people was again inferred by NoA. It was a good guess, but not the only possible solution. "Birth" can be a metaphor for "rise", not just for "creation". The way I see it, the sky people took to the skies because the Hylia were born, not that they created the Hylia and then left.
- Shad's wish to meet the sky people is presented as a definite plan, not just wishful thinking.

Edited by Jumbie, 25 January 2008 - 06:50 PM.


#139 CID Farwin

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 04:46 PM

*ahem*

THANK YOU JUMBIE!!!!!!!


I can actually sleep at night, now.

Edited by CID Farwin, 26 January 2008 - 04:46 PM.


#140 Mak

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 08:03 PM

ハイラルは最も神に近い種族のハイリア人が創ったってのが通説だけど
The common opinion is that Hyrule was created by the Hylia people, the race closest to the gods, but?

Yes, according to legend, Hyrule was made by the Hylians, who, as we all know, are the closest race to the gods.

実は大昔には、ハイリア人よりもっと神に近い種族がいて、彼らが創った という説もあるんだ
?truth be told, there's also a theory saying that in ancient times there was a race even closer to the gods than the Hylia people, and THEY created it.

But also according to legend, long ago there was a race even closer to the gods, and some say THESE creatures made the Hylians.

そして彼らは、ハイリア人の誕生とともに 新しい都を創り、都ごと天に浮かべて そこで暮らし始めたらしい
And they, simultaneously with the birth of the Hylia people, created a new capital, a capital that floated in the heavens.

When they created the people of Hylia, they simultaneously created a new capital, a city that floated in the heavens.


Ohh... Thank's for the translation. It really bothered me that they basically had altered the original creation story of Hyrule from ALttP. So it was just a translation error, and the gods still created the Hylians, not the Oocca, while the Oocca created Hyrule around the time of the birth of the Hylians. I suppose that explains the bird emblems in Hyrule.

#141 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 09:48 PM

HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!

The only appropriate response to Jumbie's post.

#142 Showsni

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 10:43 PM

Yes, this makes a lot more sense. Thanks Jumbie.

#143 Impossible

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 12:41 AM

Thanks a lot for this, Jumbie. I've been saying for a long time we need someone to look at the Japanese text in Zelda games... I wish we could just rely on the US translation, but sadly I think NoA sometimes add things to lines for effect, without realising how important they look to us. They probably had no idea people would take some great significance out of a line like "bled across the void", for example, and it's just made things harder for us. (Of course that Oocca thing is just a mistranslation.) So far I've been proven right on basically every count about the original intent of each line, though... I'm generally quite good at that. Some people over interpret things at times.

I'm probably going to think of a lot of things I want to see translated at random times, because there have been times in the past I wanted to be sure of what a line originally was, but I didn't take note of them. I guess we already have ALttP's manual very well translated, but it couldn't hurt to look at LA's and see if it adds or removes any detail in talking about Link's defeat of Ganon and departure on a journey:

http://www.zeldalege...04-p002-003.jpg

There's also FSA's manual, which I'm guessing is faithfully translated. But as we've seen already, even slight wording differences are worth knowing about and I want to know how a few lines there should literally be translated (particularly for connections to FS):

http://gallery.zelda...anual/12-13.JPG

I'm sure we can find some interesting things in TMC, too. At least the intro, the ending and any text relating to the light force (especially with the relevance that PH has added to this).

#144 Jumbie

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 02:31 AM

Nice to see y'all are happy about those news! :)

I suppose that explains the bird emblems in Hyrule.


Hey, that's a good point!

I've been saying for a long time we need someone to look at the Japanese text in Zelda games...


Well, there used to be quite a few who did this for the first three games (among them Mak who posted just above, if I'm not mistaken?), and also for certain passages in OoT and TWW. I guess they're busy with other things now, so that is why I've tackled that work.

I wish we could just rely on the US translation, but sadly I think NoA sometimes add things to lines for effect, without realising how important they look to us.


They sure do that. But in fact, no small number of fans think the text gets better that way... Admittedly, Japanese speech usually is blunt and straight to the point, yes. So I'd be alright with NoA's ornamentations - if only they didn't add or subtract any information in the process :(

I'm probably going to think of a lot of things I want to see translated at random times, because there have been times in the past I wanted to be sure of what a line originally was, but I didn't take note of them.


That's good, do bring them on :) I must add, however, that at this point we only have the in-game texts of OoT, FSA, TP and PH available. Eventually I want to have translated all significant passages of TP, just like it was done for ALttP.

it couldn't hurt to look at LA's and see if it adds or removes any detail in talking about Link's defeat of Ganon and departure on a journey:


Unfortunately, translating from images takes me insanely long because then I have to look up the Kanji via a list of radicals instead of copy-pasting them. I'll see if I get around to those one day.

I'm sure we can find some interesting things in TMC, too.


No doubt about that! I would've rushed to TMC if I had its Japanese text available... Ah, I'll ask Prime Blue if he has a text dump, after all he did something from TMC the other day... Eh, he did TMC's ending, look just a few posts above! :)

Edited by Jumbie, 27 January 2008 - 02:35 AM.


#145 jacensolo06

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 02:55 AM

そして彼らは、ハイリア人の誕生とともに 新しい都を創り、都ごと天に浮かべて そこで暮らし始めたらしい
And they, simultaneously with the birth of the Hylia people, created a new capital, a capital that floated in the heavens.

When they created the people of Hylia, they simultaneously created a new capital, a city that floated in the heavens.


Thanks so much Jumbie!

I had been wondering about that but never gotten around to finding it in the TP text dump.
Also, I can see how you could accidentally make the mistake NoA did if you weren't paying close attention.

#146 Kairu Hakubi

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 09:51 PM

Excellent, that solves that. Though it still makes me wonder how those critters could possibly 'make' anything.. a city, a country.. I mean they're just little chickenmen... that can't do anything right.. XD

#147 Impossible

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 11:51 PM

I can definitely understand the need to rewrite text because it sounds bland translated from Japanese, but sometimes they really do need to check more closely to make sure they have the same meaning at times. Suggesting that the Oocca created the Hylians is ridiculous, and sometimes just leaving something out (like in TMC's ending) can take away the meaning of something. Sure, eventually we know the original meaning anyway, but 99% of people are never going to read these translations and won't know.

For LA, we really need the manual translated, but I just looked at the FSA text dump and noticed that the intro story in the game is very similar to the manual. Most of the wording is different, but hopefully it's actually just a different translation of the same Japanese text, or at least something similar. So if you can translate the entire introduction to FSA, talking about the history of Vaati and the Four Sword, it should be enough. It's particularly important to know if Link is implied to be the same one as in FS, which seems to be the case in English. Maybe the whole beginning up until drawing the Four Sword would be useful for that purpose, just in case there's something missed in the US version. And then after Link draws the Four Sword, he's already called a hero, so again, it never hurts to know what's there in Japanese (not so much because I think it's different, but because I want to make sure it's the same). That's not as high a priority as many other things, though.

Also, we don't have a Japanese text dump of TWW? That's a really important one, someone should try and find it.

I just remembered that one of the things I wanted to know about was how the mirror in FSA is described in Japanese, but that was already requested. Looking forward to seeing it, though. One of the maidens tells you the origins of the mirror (in addition to what Dampe says), and another tells you about Ganondorf (being a thief from the desert), those might be pretty useful to check against the Japanese version. There's also the line about when Vaati "last tried to conquer Hyrule"

Also, I want to clarify how the Japanese version explains the history of the Twili, since all of that is pretty important. There are probably a few places I've forgotten that give us details about that, but one such passage is this one:

Wait, Link.
Before we go on, there's something I want you to hear.
...Do you remember what the spirit said about the Fused Shadows?
What do you think happened to the magic wielders who tried to rule the Sacred
Realm?
They were banished. They were chased across the sacred lands of Hyrule and
driven into another realm by the goddesses.
It was another world entirely... The antithesis of Hyrule, where the sun shines
bright.
Its denizens became shadows that could not mingle with the light.
Eventually, most came to call it the Twilight Realm, and from it, none could
return to the world of light...
They were forever doomed to live in the twilight, flitting in the half-light of
dusk, mere shadows of Hyrule...
This is the history of the Twili as it has been passed down from our
ancestors...
Do you now understand what I am?
I'm a descendant of the tribe that was banished to the Twilight Realm!
It was a peaceful place...until Zant took control of the Twilight Realm and
transformed all of the Twili into shadow beasts.
It's clear to me now that he somehow gained a great evil power previously
unknown to our tribe...
In any case, I was sent from there, and could no longer get into the Twilight
Realm without his power.
...But there's another tale told by my people.
Though the goddesses forbade us to return to the world of light, they left one
link between the light and the darkness.
Something called the Mirror of Twilight was passed to the protectors of
Hyrule...
It's our only path to the Twilight Realm...and we must get there!


Edited by Impossible, 28 January 2008 - 02:12 AM.


#148 Jumbie

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 05:03 AM

Excellent, that solves that. Though it still makes me wonder how those critters could possibly 'make' anything.. a city, a country.. I mean they're just little chickenmen... that can't do anything right.. XD


I think that the Wind Tribe from TMC, who were fond of mystic birds, have something to do with the Oocca. As in, the Oocca used to be their pets, or they somehow fused with them, or I dunno...
Btw, two of the European languages call Zeffa, the bird that brings the Ocarina of Wind in TMC, by the name Roc. Although we cannot check the Japanese text yet, it may well be the same there.

So if you can translate the entire introduction to FSA, talking about the history of Vaati and the Four Sword, it should be enough.


FSA is going to come in the future, no worries.

Also, we don't have a Japanese text dump of TWW? That's a really important one, someone should try and find it.


I think Iron Knuckle will create and upload it sometime soon, he said so not long ago.

I just remembered that one of the things I wanted to know about was how the mirror in FSA is described in Japanese, but that was already requested. Looking forward to seeing it, though.


I can quickly give the names of all the mirrors:
ALttP: マジカルミラー = Magical Mirror (NoA: Magical Mirror)
FSA: 闇の鏡 = Mirror of Darkness (NoA: Dark Mirror)
TP: 陰りの鏡 = Mirror of Gloom (NoA: Mirror of Twilight)

(in addition to what Dampe says)


I got that part right here! :) I didn't post it before because I'm unable to get Dampé's first and last lines perfect, but considering that those are totally insignificant, I'll show you what he says now. Here goes Dampé's legend, with a tiny surprise:


My name's Dampé. I'm supposed to be the caretaker at this here graveyard. Only I can't take care of a single thing right now. I'm helpless!!!

それにしても あいつらの よろこびよう? まるで 闇の世界にでも なったみたいだ。
These fellows, in turn, are pleased? As if they wanted to see it turn into the Dark World, too.

These creatures, they are so pleased. They treat our world like their new home.

?知ってるか?ぼーず。
?Do you know?

Listen up, boys.

ハイラルの ある場所に、大昔 闇の一族を 封印した 鏡があるらしいぜ?。
It is said that in a certain place in Hyrule, there is a mirror that sealed away a clan of darkness long ago?

Legends speak of a mirror in which a dark tribe was sealed away long ago.

ある場所ってのはな、どうやら 光の森らしい。
It seems that certain place is supposed to be the Forest of Light.

I understand it's supposed to be hidden now somewhere in the Forest of Light.

その光の森が、ちかごろ 雲におおわれて 真っ暗なんだ。
That Forest of Light has been covered by pitch-black clouds recently.

The forest's been covered by pitch-black clouds recently.

まるで 暗黒の森だぜ。
As if it was a Forest of Darkness.

It's a Forest of Dark now.

ありゃあ 絶対、なにかあるに ちげえねぇ?。
Absolutely, there is something [???]?

Yep, no mistake about it... Something bad's a-brewin' there.


Note: It says without a doubt that the mirror sealed them away (like in TP), but not inside itself. Had they been sealed inside the mirror, this would've been shown by a certain particle which is absent from here. So, one of the presumed differences between FSA's mirror and the mirror in TP has been disposed of!


Also, I want to clarify how the Japanese version explains the history of the Twili, since all of that is pretty important. There are probably a few places I've forgotten that give us details about that, but one such passage is this one:


Heh, what a coincidence, I've been meaning to post that passage next! Still not completely done with it though. As a teaser: NoA messed up a little there... ;)

#149 Raien

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 05:18 AM

Note: It says without a doubt that the mirror sealed them away (like in TP), but not inside itself. Had they been sealed inside the mirror, this would've been shown by a certain particle which is absent from here. So, one of the presumed differences between FSA's mirror and the mirror in TP has been disposed of!


Despite the absence of this particle, I would have thought that given the Dark Mirror was hidden in the Forest of Light (obviously because the Light represses the Darkness in the mirror), that it came upon its Dark nature at the point of sealing the Dark Tribe. If the Dark Tribe were not sealed within the Mirror to make it Dark, then it's most probable that, like with the Twilight Mirror, the lingering malice of the spirits that were sealed away left an imprint on the mirror.

#150 Impossible

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 06:46 AM

Thanks, that's interesting, although it doesn't come anywhere close to proving a connection between the two mirrors (which still seem to function inherently differently). That's why I was wondering what else is said about the mirror and the dark tribe, by the maiden and by anyone else who brings up that story.

Just to make sure, is one of the parts you're working on this one?

You speak of magic? Still your tongue for a moment, whelp, and I will tell you
of both magic and the oppression of ages...
The people of our tribe...a tribe that mastered the arts of magic...were locked
away in this world like insects in a cage.
In the shadows we regressed, so much so that we soon knew neither anger nor
hatred...nor even the faintest bloom of desire.
And all of it was the fault of a useless, do-nothing royal family that had
resigned itself to this miserable half-existence!
I had served and endured in that depraved household for far too long, my
impudent princess.
And why, you ask? Because I believed I would be the next to rule our people!
THAT is why!
But would they acknowledge me as their king? No! And as such, I was denied the
magic powers befitting our ruler.
It was then, in the thrall of hatred and despair, that I turned my eyes to the
heavens...and found a god.


That's becoming pretty important as it seems to contradict Ganon's statement that he drew power from the hatred of the Twili. Either the hatred of the Twili has actually come to him from past generations, or the two are speaking in a different context.




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