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#121 Guest_Darkseid_*

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 03:33 AM

It is debatable if he had the full version.  Link's entering of the room could have resulting in the piece within him to go join the other 2 (one from Zelda one from Ganon)

When LTTP was written, I doubt Nintendo EVER planned they'd make OOT, which would then be a BACKSTORY to LTTP's story...  Considering this, Nintendo did damn well to make OOT be a well done backstory to LTTP...


They did a decent job, but it was far from being a damn good job to the backstory to A link to the Past. Take a look at the comparisons.

A link to the Past's Gates to the Golden Land:
One day quite back accident, a gate to the Golden Land of the Triforce was opened by a gang of thieves skilled in the black arts. This land was like no other. In the gathering twlight, the Triforce shone from its resting place high above the world. In a long running battle, the leader of the thieves fought his way past his followers in lust for the Golden Power. After vanquishing his own followers, the leader stood triumphant over the Triforce and grasped it with his blood stained hands. He heard a whispered voice: "If thou has a strong desire or dream, wish for it..." And in reply, the roaring laughter of the brigand leader echoes across time and space and even reached the far-off land of Hyrule. The name of this king of thieves is Ganondorf Dragmire, but he is also known by his alias, Mandrag Ganon, which means Ganon of the Enchanted Thieves.

Now let's look what was seen in Ocarina of Time:
Ganondorf knew he needed the three spiritual stones, his lurking presence to where they were at is evidence enough that he needed them. He knew he needed the Ocarina of Time, he chased Zelda after it. When he seen Link in his own twisted mind he thought he may have realized the person who could open the seal. Link opens the gate by pulling out the Master Sword, and Ganondorf goes inside, and says he owes it all to him.

So by comparison, did Ganondorf have to make a run for the Triforce in the Ocarina of Time? No, not that we can tell. Did Ganondorf kill his fellow thieves in lust for the Golden Power? No, not that we know of and why would he kill the gerudo thieves anyway. Also they had no idea that Ganondorf was after the Triforce, and they were they only ones in Hyrule that was left unpunished. So it doesn't seem to me that he was off killing his followers, it doesn't even sound anything like it. Then we have him grasping the complete Triforce, it telling him if he has a wish or a dream to do so and the inanimate object would grant it. In Ocarina of Time however, Ganondorf didn't get to have a wish, he was only left with Power, but it was enough for him to conqueor Hyrule for seven long years.

Maybe I am just overanalyzing things a bit, but lets look further at the Imprisoning War and see if it will match up to the things that happened in Ocarina of Time.

I do not know what Ganon wished for from the Triforcr. However, in time evil power began to flow from the Golden Land and greedy men were drawn there to become members of Ganon's army. Black clouds permanently darkened the sky, and many disasters beset Hyrule.

Well the sky wasn't completely darkened in Ocarina of Time, but things did get pretty gloom. Perhaps the greedy men who joined Ganon's army turned into Moblins, Redeads, Stalfoses, and other monsters. But wait though Redeads could be found in Link's childhood, as could the Stalfos, but maybe he just turned them into these creatures to give them inhuman strenght. Still though lets look a bit further here and see what we can find.

The Triforce, being an inanimate object, cannot judge between good and evil. Therefore, it could not know Ganon's wishes were evil; it merely granted them. Suspecting Ganon's power was based on theTriforce's magic, the people of Hyrule forged a sword resistant to magic which could repulse even powers granted by the Triforce. This mighty weapon became known as the blade of evil's bane, or the Master Sword. It was so powerful that only one who was strong of body could wield it. As the Seven Wise Men searched for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword, Ganon's evil army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attacked the castle. The wise men and the Knights of Hyrule combined forces to wage war on this evil horde.

Okay time for a bit of a break here again and let us go back to what the Ocarina of Time has to say about all of this.

Ganondorf isn't getting his wishes granted, infact he was looking for the two remaining pieces. The Master Sword was already legendary at this point and had not just been forged in Ocarina of Time, though this may have been cleared up in the new manual. The Seven Sages did not look for a hero valiant enough to wield the Master Sword, infact no one but Zelda perhaps suggested Link to go get it in Ocarina of Time. Also the Seven Sages did not look for Link, Link searched for them in the Ocarina of Time. Ganondorf sprung an attack on Hyrule Castle in Ocarina of Time, but in the Imprisoning War his army was staged in the tainted Golden Land. Link also was the main one to confront Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time, but he was however aided in the end by the Seven Sages to finally defeat and seal Ganon in the Sacred Realm. The Knights of Hyrule did not help him one damn bit, but as we take a look further the Imprisoning War states otherwise.

The Knights took the full blunt the fierce attack, and although they fought courageously, many a brave soul was lost that day. However, their lives were not lost in vain, for they brought precious time the Seven Wise Men to magically seal Ganon in the Golden Land. All of Hyrule rejoiced at the victory that upheld peace and order over Ganon's evil and chaos. This war which had claimed many lives, became known as the Imprisoning War in stories told in later centuries.

Okay I wouldn't doubt that the Knights fought bravely against Ganondorf during Link's childhood quest, but they were supposed to be fighting along with the Seven Sages, and the Sages in Ocarina of Time didn't even know they were sages until Link had awakened them. It also seems to me though that Ganon's stronghold was still in the tainted Golden Land, and that he was sending his army from there, but in Ocarina of Time he staged his whole attack clearly in Hyrule itself. He got the Triforce of Power and took over, and no one could stop him, until Link came along.

Now it does state later that many people in Hyrule had forgotten about the Imprisoning War, but the scholar who wrote this did not say that he forgot it. Nor has some people in A link to the Past forgotten about the Imprisoning War, such as Sahasrahla, the maidens, and I think even the Old Man atop Death Mountain who may have known about a few things here and there.

Also Ganon had the complete Triforce. It is evident even after you beat the game. The essence of the Triforce explains everything in full detail, and Link makes his wish on it. Also you have too many people saying that Ganon had the complete Triforce. The Tree in the Dark World claims that the King of Darkness harnessed the Golden Power, the maidens do, and so on, and it was never stated that Link or Zelda had a piece of the Triforce. And if they did I am sure Ganon would have stated it somewhere in there.

Now Nintendo may not have planned to do OoT at the time of LttP, well of course they wouldn't it is an older game (LttP that is), but they did plan on doing the OoT after what the events of the Imprisoning War was supposed to be. They should have looked over every single detail and got their story straight instead of setting up so many questions. If they would have had a perfect presentation of the Imprisoning War, but they didn't so my response is that Nintendo did damn well to raise [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of questions, not make a game based on some event in the backstory of LttP. Oh yeah the Wind Waker doesn't help things either. That is trying to connect it after LttP since Ganondorf breaks from his seal and whatnot.

Oh yeah I do need to bring up that this is about the Light Force too:lmao:.

Whoops, did we get carried away.

#122 Guest_randomthoughts_*

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 09:57 AM

This is all well and good, but storyline flaws do not destroy a games placement.Resident Evil games have storyline flaws, but would you disagree with their order?

Whats important is that the most relevant and important story points in the Imprisoning war saga are represented in OoT, not the more pernickity ones.

I am quite pleased with TWW as a stop-gap between the two games thus far. The Triforce is now whole (admittedly arguable), and I feel Ganon is once again in the Dark World (since the Master Sword is the key into the Sacred Realm, I'm assuming Ganon has been locked).

Most importantly we have another GC Zelda game on the way. History has shown that Zelda games on one console are direct sequels (even an arguement could be made that the same Link is featured in all original GB-line games, since Din the Dancer is in an Oracle game and TMC, and Link sails away from Labrynna/Holodrum in his LA boat, and the presence of Ganon in Oracles can be explained away by the Hero of Men story).

Back on topic, I wouldn't worry about the Hero of Winds placement until his story is actually complete. In that regard I view the OoT-ALTTP link as being stronger than the OoT-TWW link.

#123 Fatgoron

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 11:45 AM

I think Ganondorf ought to have had his wish granted by the triforce in OoT. ALttP link apparently had his wish granted the first time he touched the triforce, although we don't know wether or not he had a balanced heart.

One of the biggest problems with the Zelda series is that storyline is always an afterthought, according to Miyamoto san anyway.

#124 Marty

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 01:07 PM

Light force - the immediate connection that springs to mind is with the Light arrows. If I'm not mistaken (and if I am someone will no doubt correct me) the Light arrows are only ever gifted to you by Zelda. This suggests to me that the Light arrows are a creation of the Light force and not Hylian magic or the Triforce since only Zelda can possess the Light force and whereas many other characters could fulfill the other two options. With this obvious first connection in mind there is no reason to connect the Light force with the Triforce.

This brings me onto the apparent Silver arrow contradiction. Its not that Silver arrow > Light arrow but that it is simply more effectice against Ganon. But why? Ganon's power comes from the Golden power and what is the opposite of Gold? Silver (or possibly Lead but I don't think Lead arrows would fly too well). Hence the silver pierces Ganon's Golden power and allows the arrow to strike true and kill Ganon.

#125 Guest_Darkseid_*

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 03:15 PM

Light force - the immediate connection that springs to mind is with the Light arrows. If I'm not mistaken (and if I am someone will no doubt correct me) the Light arrows are only ever gifted to you by Zelda. This suggests to me that the Light arrows are a creation of the Light force and not Hylian magic or the Triforce since only Zelda can possess the Light force and whereas many other characters could fulfill the other two options. With this obvious first connection in mind there is no reason to connect the Light force with the Triforce.

This brings me onto the apparent Silver arrow contradiction. Its not that Silver arrow > Light arrow but that it is simply more effectice against Ganon. But why? Ganon's power comes from the Golden power and what is the opposite of Gold? Silver (or possibly Lead but I don't think Lead arrows would fly too well). Hence the silver pierces Ganon's Golden power and allows the arrow to strike true and kill Ganon.


I was kinda thinking the same thing so far. Link didn't really get the Light Arrows from Zelda in Majora's Mask or the Wind Waker, but she did give them to him in Ocarina of Time, and her powers all seem to shine with some sort of light. Even at the beginning of the game when Vaati spoke to Zelda I thought it might have to do with an explanation to Zelda's powers. Well the best way to explain what I am trying to say is show what Vaati said.

Vaati:
Who are you? Why are you doing this? The Princess with the mystic aura...
...The Power that was gifted to the people of Hyrule still flows within the veins of the ladies of its royal family? Interesting...If I leave you now, you'll only cause me trouble later. That will never do. To stone with you!

How could the Triforce being flowing inside the Princess's veins? Well I might get back on this topic after I beat the game, but I have been taking notes.

I also believe too that the Silver Arrows counteract the Power of Gold, but that is my own personal opinion.

As to randomthoughts you mentioned on how Resident Evil's plot was messed up, well Capcom makes Resident Evil, they have a tendency to do things like this. Nintendo could make up an understandable timeline if they wanted to, look at the Metroid series. And as far as the Wind Waker not having as much things about the Ocarina of Time than A link to the Past is. Then how come in the Wind Waker they specifically mention the Hero of Time and his tale and get the story down right, and the Imprisoning War connection to Ocarina of Time can be all shot to hell. I could bring up other references as to why they don't seem to connect to me if you want.

#126 Zythe

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 03:22 PM

Light force - the immediate connection that springs to mind is with the Light arrows. If I'm not mistaken (and if I am someone will no doubt correct me) the Light arrows are only ever gifted to you by Zelda. This suggests to me that the Light arrows are a creation of the Light force and not Hylian magic or the Triforce since only Zelda can possess the Light force and whereas many other characters could fulfill the other two options. With this obvious first connection in mind there is no reason to connect the Light force with the Triforce.

This brings me onto the apparent Silver arrow contradiction. Its not that Silver arrow > Light arrow but that it is simply more effectice against Ganon. But why? Ganon's power comes from the Golden power and what is the opposite of Gold? Silver (or possibly Lead but I don't think Lead arrows would fly too well). Hence the silver pierces Ganon's Golden power and allows the arrow to strike true and kill Ganon.


That makes more sense than anything else so far. Thank you.

#127 Fatgoron

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 03:30 PM

You're right, someone will correct you. Sorry.
In WW you obtain the light arrows from Ganon(dorf)'s tower, and in TMC you get them from the elderly guy in the wind tribe's home. They're also avilible in the stone tower temple in MM.

#128 Marty

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 03:46 PM

I'd forgotten about MM, I haven't completed WW and the elderly guy died on me in TMC. But I can still salvage my theory by placing OoT first - Zelda uses the Light force in her to create the Light arrows. They are then in the world to be used in all the other adventures, they simply have to be found. Not as strong as my original thoughts on the subject. In any case I see the Light arrows and Light force as a different type of magic that is seperate to the Triforce.

#129 Fatgoron

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 05:13 PM

I don't think the light arrows and light force are connected. To me the light arrows just seem to be another enchantment that can be added to ordinary arrows, like the silver/fire/ice arrows.

#130 Zythe

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 05:23 PM

Except Silver is special. Right?

#131 Guest_Darkseid_*

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 07:12 PM

Except Silver is special. Right?


They are all special arrows, but some are just more powerful than others. I think Ocarina of Time does a good job in explaining the fire, ice, and light arrows, so let's look at them.

The Fire Arrow:
As the final terror of the Water Temple evaporated, Lake Hylia's crystal depths were restored. Link swam to the island in the center of the lake and reread the cryptic etching that told him to fire into the "morning light." Link used the Sun's Song to renew the day and shot a single arrow into the sun's bright glare. The arrow fell back to earth, but the power of the sun had transformed it into a blazing Fire Arrow.

An arrow in which has been set afire by the sun's heat must be an incredibly hot arrow, and you can tell it is as it can melt aways ice barriers in seemingly no time, which would in reality take [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] longer if the fire was cooler than what it is stated as.

Ice Arrow:
The wintry weapon was the reward for reachig the center of the training ground. The Ice Arrow cut a frost arc through the air, freezing whatever received its frigid point.

This is actually somewhat true, because just [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of things you nail with the Ice Arrow, will most likely freeze, though of course not everything will, but still it is cold enough to freeze even molten lava, but in the Wind Waker though it just temporarily cools it down. Hmmmmmm.....odd, but oh well.

Light Arrow:
The Light Arrow, the golden gift from Zelda, would be Link's only hope in vanquishing Ganondorf once and for all. The holy arrow had the power to numb evil for only a few seconds.

Well this is somewhat true and false. I mean the Light Arrow has the power to smite evil, as in the Wind Waker it can destroy nearly anything in just one hit, but greater evils are more difficult for the arrow to truly take out, and it can only stun the King of Evil momentarily.

Silver Arrow:
Like a bolt of lightning through thee darkness, the Bow and Silver Arrows can break through otherwise impenetrable magic. Legends say that only an arrow of the purest silver can harm Ganon.

Silver Arrow while not as defined as the others are seen as much as the others, is the weapon that can pierce through obects that otherwise would be impossible to do. Ganondorf sorta has some safeguard, and doesn't really die from either the Master Sword or the Light Arrows, but you lay on the Silver Arrows and his carcuss will turn to dust in no time flat.

#132 Guest_cheesedude_*

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 08:39 PM

My IW theory

Alright OoT and IW are different
IW is after OoT
In OoT, Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm and obtains only the ToP. He is defeated by Link I and later by Link II (WW Link). In New Hyrule he is reincarnated and using his band of enchanted thieves, Steals the whole Triforce. He dosen't have to again enter the Golden Land/Sacred Realm. Since he'd already touched the Triforce once, he just has to assemble the other two pieces. Then comes IW.

#133 Guest_randomthoughts_*

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 09:27 AM

As to randomthoughts you mentioned on how Resident Evil's plot was messed up, well Capcom makes Resident Evil, they have a tendency to do things like this. Nintendo could make up an understandable timeline if they wanted to, look at the Metroid series. And as far as the Wind Waker not having as much things about the Ocarina of Time than A link to the Past is. Then how come in the Wind Waker they specifically mention the Hero of Time and his tale and get the story down right, and the Imprisoning War connection to Ocarina of Time can be all shot to hell. I could bring up other references as to why they don't seem to connect to me if you want.


Capcom have a tendency? Whatever, Nintendo is by far the guiltiest in this regard, even when both are working on the same series (see HA).

That the Hero of Winds storyline is probably not over is my driving point. I certainly agree the Wind Waker comes after OoT, but the sequel coming out leaves room for us not to commit to its placement. Until there are no more Zeldas on the GC I'm not going to worry too much about its overall placement. The Legendary Hero and the Hero of Time have concluded stories, so I'll place their games before the Game Boy Zeldas and the GC Zeldas.

For me, a Link per console(or gimmick if we're talking Four Swords) is the only real pattern in Zelda continuity.

#134 Zythe

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 10:12 AM

Light Arrow:  
The Light Arrow, the golden gift from Zelda, would be Link's only hope in vanquishing Ganondorf once and for all. The holy arrow had the power to numb evil for only a few seconds.  

Well this is somewhat true and false. I mean the Light Arrow has the power to smite evil, as in the Wind Waker it can destroy nearly anything in just one hit, but greater evils are more difficult for the arrow to truly take out, and it can only stun the King of Evil momentarily.  

Silver Arrow:  
Like a bolt of lightning through thee darkness, the Bow and Silver Arrows can break through otherwise impenetrable magic. Legends say that only an arrow of the purest silver can harm Ganon.  

Silver Arrow while not as defined as the others are seen as much as the others, is the weapon that can pierce through obects that otherwise would be impossible to do. Ganondorf sorta has some safeguard, and doesn't really die from either the Master Sword or the Light Arrows, but you lay on the Silver Arrows and his carcuss will turn to dust in no time flat.


So that sort of goes with myths and stuff. If Zelda's arrows in that source are quotes as "golden" arrows, and yet silver ones are more effective - does it relate back to basic Christian demonology? Vampires (yes, vampires) and werewolves have both been shown to be weak againt silver.

#135 Fatgoron

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 01:50 PM

I always thought there had to be some connection between Ganon's lycanthope appearance and the arrows being silver. What with silver being supposedly effective against lycanthropes and other mythical creatures.

#136 Zythe

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 01:52 PM

Yes. But Ganon's shapeshifting is not lycanthropy. It's (at least according to some sources) his being corrupted by the ToP/Trident.

#137 Marty

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 02:28 PM

Doubtless the silver arrows were there in the first game since silver is a well known weapon against many types of demons. But silver piercing gold seems to me to be the best explanation for why its an effective weapon in the Zelda universe, since Link doesn't ever encounter vampires or werewolves.

#138 SOAP

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 08:22 PM

^ Um... Gomez and Wolfos. Nuff said.

The Light Force and Light Arrow connection makes [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of sense. Don't know why I didn't see that myself.:s:

#139 Guest_Darkseid_*

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Posted 18 January 2005 - 10:07 PM

Capcom have a tendency? Whatever, Nintendo is by far the guiltiest in this regard, even when both are working on the same series (see HA).

That the Hero of Winds storyline is probably not over is my driving point. I certainly agree the Wind Waker comes after OoT, but the sequel coming out leaves room for us not to commit to its placement. Until there are no more Zeldas on the GC I'm not going to worry too much about its overall placement. The Legendary Hero and the Hero of Time have concluded stories, so I'll place their games before the Game Boy Zeldas and the GC Zeldas.

For me, a Link per console(or gimmick if we're talking Four Swords) is the only real pattern in Zelda continuity.


FSA was a follow up to FS. The Wind Waker goes centuries after the OoT, and even if the Wind Waker does have a sequel (so did OoT) the story of OoT is in there and the connection is clear. We know its placement is after OoT.

Though I do agree with you that Zelda does sorta have a pattern.

LoZ and AoL are both on the NES.

LttP is on the SNES.

LA is on GB.

OoT and MM is on the N64.

OoS and OoA is on the GBC.

TWW and FSA is on the GCN.

LttP/FS and TMC is on the GBA.

Of course some of these titles have been re-released (just about all of them) but they do sorta follow a pattern, but it is not exactly like some set pattern.

#140 Zythe

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 11:08 AM

Usually, there are two Zelda games per console. These are usually twin games, as they feature the same Link. As for where FSA fits, as it is multiconsole I'd put it with Tetra's Trackers. Sorry. This has gone off topic. Back on topic, anyone?

#141 SOAP

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 12:26 PM

Actually it's like Mr. Anuma's word are becoming more literally true: that every [individual] game features a diferent [individual] Link. In the last two years we've been introduced to three different Links with the possibility of a fourth one this year. when before they at least waited four or so years before revealing a new Link.

I think this Multiple Link thing is getting out of hand. Soon we'll have two links in the same game! 0_o

#142 Marty

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 12:30 PM

We already do, with Blue Link, Red Link etc.

#143 SOAP

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 12:36 PM

Oh yeah... craziness. XP

I just hope things get too out of hand. I don't want to deal with a new Link and a new storyline every month. I want to spend at least some quality time with one Link, getting know him, falling in love with him, and actually caring about his cause before having cast to the wayside when Ninty brings out a new one. This year is bad enough because I'm torn between the Minish Cap Link and the ZGC05 Link and I don't even know their stories yet!

#144 Marty

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 12:47 PM

I just hope things get too out of hand.


You do eh? :P

Back on topic again - Light Force. We haven't really come to any conclusions about it yet but since its a gift from the Picori then its logical to think that it was made by the Picori. So unless you connect the Picori with the Triforce you can't really connect the Light Force with the Triforce. That still doesn't answer the question to what is it?

#145 SOAP

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 12:50 PM

Dammit... curse my poor-ass literary skillz! XP

#146 Zythe

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 02:06 PM

You do eh? :P  
 
Back on topic again - Light Force. We haven't really come to any conclusions about it yet but since its a gift from the Picori then its logical to think that it was made by the Picori. So unless you connect the Picori with the Triforce you can't really connect the Light Force with the Triforce. That still doesn't answer the question to what is it?


Well you can. Minish Realm = Sacred Realm. But don't discuss that here, there's a thread for that already.

#147 SOAP

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 02:59 PM

Also it could be that Picori or whatever the term is is the Hylian word for anything supernatural that was related to the Minish Real/Sacred Realm which would include the Goddesses themselves. In otherwords, maybe Din, Nayru, and Farore aren't Minish but they still could be Picori... if that makes any sense. So therefore, the statement about the Light Force being a gift from the Picori could still be true.

#148 Zythe

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 04:00 PM

Or, the Goddesses made the Triforce. Minish life sprouted in the Golden Land. The Minish gave Zelda the ToW and Link the ToC, in such a way, that it wouldn't alert the rest of the world. Then, they somehow took it back in time for OoT.

#149 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 08:13 PM

Or...since the Minish evolved and grew in the Sacred Realm, they were like minature deities, and made severely weaker versions of the Triforce? AKA, the Light Force?

#150 Vazor

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 09:14 PM

I'm thinking that the Light Force IS the Triforce. So what if they didn't call them the exact same thing? They call the Minish Realm the Sacred Realm (and the Golden Land, and the Dark World). It's just another name for the same thing, the Light Force is just how the keepers of the legend told it at the time. Over time they changed its name to the Triforce because it sounded better at that time and the name stuck.




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