506 replies to this topic

[MikePetersSucks]

How do Force Gems = Life Force? The only connection made is in Minish Cap Zelda gets turned to Stone, and in Phantom Hourglass Tetra gets turned to stone. But the thing is the circumstances are completely different. Tetra got turned to stone because her lifeforce was drained from her, Zelda got turned to stone because Vatti cast a spell on her. Zelda keeps her Light Force throughout the game, till the end where it gets scattered across Hyrule, she never loses it. If the Light Force is Life Force, Zelda shouldn't have been turned to stone till it was almost completely removed from her. Also, the spell Vatti cast on Zelda was a spell that turned her to stone, but the chant of the spell didn't mention anything about removing her life force, it was just "turn into stone" (not exactly). The Light Force could possibly be force gems, since it sealed away all of vatti's monsters, and was scattered across Hyrule in the end of the game, but I don't think it has any relation with the sands of life.

In the Japanese version, Life Force and Light Force are both just called "Force", and in the Temple of the Ocean King, the Force Gems you find are crystallized Life Force of the Ocean King, who has such immense force that he's a god. In a similar fashion, Bellum wanted Tetra because she had more Life Force than anyone else. Then there's the Light Force, that takes the form of a golden Force Gem in art, and is apparently so immense it can grant wishes. Force is the life energy of Hyrule, and can crystallize into gems. And when you gather enough, it can give swords the power of Evil's Bane, break curses, turn men into fairies, and grant your deepest wish.

Vatti's seal = Minish Cap? I was just thinking about the end of Minish Cap, when Zelda made her wish and all the monsters dissappeared. I thought maybe the monsters got resealed in the four sword. Think about it, Zelda undid all of Vatti's evil. So one could assume the monsters went back to where they came from the Picori Blade AKA the Four Sword. So its not to big of a leap to have Vatti himself sealed inside the four sword, with his monsters. And then when Link pulls out the four sword in FS then all the monsters and Vatti would be released.

No, Vaati was killed, and Zelda's wish just poofed the monsters into nothingness. It was a miracle, not a seal.

Is that in agreement or...?

I'm saying there's no reason the Triforce in TP acts differently from the other games.

Possible Child Timeline
MC-FS/FSA-OoT-WW/PH

possible Adult Timeline
MC-FS/FSA-OoT/MM-TP-LoZ/AoL-OoA/OoS-ALttP/LA

Two problems: FS/FSA can't go before OOT, and LOZ/AOL can't go before LTTP.

Ok, what's nice about this timeline is the Knights of Hyrule are alive in the correct time period, and then die out. Also, you could easily say the transformation in FSA isn't permanent, but a temporary transformation, like in the other games. Also, it explains why nobody recognises Ganon's name, and nobody really knows allot about Ganondorf.

No it wouldn't. For one, I bet there's more than those four knights, and the Knights need to die in the Seal War anyway. Futhermore, Ganon was sealed in the Four Sword, so he can't be released until someone else pulls it. Plus the Maidens weren't going to keep it a secret,and they couldn't. People have already experienced Ganon's evil horrors and a lot of people know his name as the King of Darkness. You can't change him from a well-known King of Darkness demon sealed up to a Gerudo Prince respected and trusted by the King of Hyrule like that, it makes no fucking sense.

Also, I like LoZ/AoL-OoA/OoS there because 1 Master Sword appears in Oracles, and it can't appear after A Link to the Past, and 2 It helps explain how the Pieces of the Triforce got back together for ALttP. You could say that the pieces returned to the Dark Realm after OoA/OoS. Also, the Dark World could've been created either at OoT, or shortly afterwards, and it lasted until Ganon died once and for all at A Link to the Past, because Ganondorf never gets revived after that game, atleast on my timeline. Also, it follows the information given during interviews.

The problem is that all official sources place LTTP before LOZ/AOL, first of all. Most people don't count the Master Sword's appearance in Oracles as canonical, as it's optional and whatnot. Plus, it doesn't explain jack/ Alright, so AOL Link completes the Triforce. It's kept by the Royal Family, apparently, so Oracles Link can meet it. Okay. But then WHY DOES IT GO BACK TO THE SACRED REALM? It serves it's owner until their death, and LTTP gives the impression that the Triforce was in the Sacred Realm for a LOOOOOONG time. Adding on to that, the Dark World was created when Ganon got the entire Triforce and wished to rule the world. The Dark World was his wish being granted; it can't exist before LTTP's backstory, and the Evil Realm is a different sort of plane.

The Mirror of Twilight, not the Triforce, is in pieces.

No, he was referring to how the Triforce wasn't reunited at the end of TP.

[FDL]

I'm saying there's no reason the Triforce in TP acts differently from the other games.

Oh. Care to weigh in on this other stuff?

[wring]

How do Force Gems = Life Force? The only connection made is in Minish Cap Zelda gets turned to Stone, and in Phantom Hourglass Tetra gets turned to stone. But the thing is the circumstances are completely different. Tetra got turned to stone because her lifeforce was drained from her, Zelda got turned to stone because Vatti cast a spell on her. Zelda keeps her Light Force throughout the game, till the end where it gets scattered across Hyrule, she never loses it. If the Light Force is Life Force, Zelda shouldn't have been turned to stone till it was almost completely removed from her. Also, the spell Vatti cast on Zelda was a spell that turned her to stone, but the chant of the spell didn't mention anything about removing her life force, it was just "turn into stone" (not exactly). The Light Force could possibly be force gems, since it sealed away all of vatti's monsters, and was scattered across Hyrule in the end of the game, but I don't think it has any relation with the sands of life.

In the Japanese version, Life Force and Light Force are both just called "Force", and in the Temple of the Ocean King, the Force Gems you find are crystallized Life Force of the Ocean King, who has such immense force that he's a god. In a similar fashion, Bellum wanted Tetra because she had more Life Force than anyone else. Then there's the Light Force, that takes the form of a golden Force Gem in art, and is apparently so immense it can grant wishes. Force is the life energy of Hyrule, and can crystallize into gems. And when you gather enough, it can give swords the power of Evil's Bane, break curses, turn men into fairies, and grant your deepest wish.

Vatti's seal = Minish Cap? I was just thinking about the end of Minish Cap, when Zelda made her wish and all the monsters dissappeared. I thought maybe the monsters got resealed in the four sword. Think about it, Zelda undid all of Vatti's evil. So one could assume the monsters went back to where they came from the Picori Blade AKA the Four Sword. So its not to big of a leap to have Vatti himself sealed inside the four sword, with his monsters. And then when Link pulls out the four sword in FS then all the monsters and Vatti would be released.

No, Vaati was killed, and Zelda's wish just poofed the monsters into nothingness. It was a miracle, not a seal.

Is that in agreement or...?

I'm saying there's no reason the Triforce in TP acts differently from the other games.

Possible Child Timeline
MC-FS/FSA-OoT-WW/PH

possible Adult Timeline
MC-FS/FSA-OoT/MM-TP-LoZ/AoL-OoA/OoS-ALttP/LA

Two problems: FS/FSA can't go before OOT, and LOZ/AOL can't go before LTTP.

Ok, what's nice about this timeline is the Knights of Hyrule are alive in the correct time period, and then die out. Also, you could easily say the transformation in FSA isn't permanent, but a temporary transformation, like in the other games. Also, it explains why nobody recognises Ganon's name, and nobody really knows allot about Ganondorf.

No it wouldn't. For one, I bet there's more than those four knights, and the Knights need to die in the Seal War anyway. Futhermore, Ganon was sealed in the Four Sword, so he can't be released until someone else pulls it. Plus the Maidens weren't going to keep it a secret,and they couldn't. People have already experienced Ganon's evil horrors and a lot of people know his name as the King of Darkness. You can't change him from a well-known King of Darkness demon sealed up to a Gerudo Prince respected and trusted by the King of Hyrule like that, it makes no fucking sense.

Also, I like LoZ/AoL-OoA/OoS there because 1 Master Sword appears in Oracles, and it can't appear after A Link to the Past, and 2 It helps explain how the Pieces of the Triforce got back together for ALttP. You could say that the pieces returned to the Dark Realm after OoA/OoS. Also, the Dark World could've been created either at OoT, or shortly afterwards, and it lasted until Ganon died once and for all at A Link to the Past, because Ganondorf never gets revived after that game, atleast on my timeline. Also, it follows the information given during interviews.

The problem is that all official sources place LTTP before LOZ/AOL, first of all. Most people don't count the Master Sword's appearance in Oracles as canonical, as it's optional and whatnot. Plus, it doesn't explain jack/ Alright, so AOL Link completes the Triforce. It's kept by the Royal Family, apparently, so Oracles Link can meet it. Okay. But then WHY DOES IT GO BACK TO THE SACRED REALM? It serves it's owner until their death, and LTTP gives the impression that the Triforce was in the Sacred Realm for a LOOOOOONG time. Adding on to that, the Dark World was created when Ganon got the entire Triforce and wished to rule the world. The Dark World was his wish being granted; it can't exist before LTTP's backstory, and the Evil Realm is a different sort of plane.

The Mirror of Twilight, not the Triforce, is in pieces.

No, he was referring to how the Triforce wasn't reunited at the end of TP.

I know the problems with placing FS/FSA before OoT, that's why I said it was just a possible timeline. I really do think the Dark World of FSA is the same Realm as in OoT and ALttP. My reason is, 1 Ganondorf turned into Ganon when he entered the Dark World, 2 Ganon can transport you to the Dark World during the final, 3 the Moon Pearl can't just be conincendence 4 The Knights of Hyrule turned into monsters when they entered the Dark World.

LoZ and AoL can go either before or after LttP there is evidence both ways. The box isn't a very good source on canon material IMO. Besides, there are official interviews with people who've placed it in my order. OoT is the LttP backstory, the makers of the game said so. game makers > you.

2nd possible Child Timeline
MC-OoT/MM-TP-FS/FSA-LttP/LA-LoZ/AoL-OoA/OoS

Emphasises the connection between FS/FSA and ALttP, and a popular timeline.

[Lexxi Aileron]

LOZ/AOL can't go before LTTP.

Why not?

[Raien]

Do you still forget what Fyxe, Hero of Legend, and I have always said about the scene in the Arbiters Ground? How it parallels Ganondorf's transformation in OoT to such a degree that it's probably intentional? Clearly the Triforce of Power granted him more strength when he was on the brink of death.

Sure, Ganondorf is close to death and he suddenly acquires power from the ToP; that could certainly support the belief that the ToP works to protect the holder, and I reckon the creation of Wolf Link might be the same principle.

But what does this have to do with what we were talking about earlier? I thought you were arguing that I was being hypocritical by referring to Adult OoT to explain TP's events, to which I responded by arguing that the events in TP were perfectly capable of explaining themselves. I believe that to keep the story from becoming too complicated, the writers would explain all the relevant information in TP itself; including Ganondorf's potential abilities with the ToP. Even if there are parallels to OoT, I don't believe the writers would rely on those parallels to establish TP's back story.

PS: With regard to one of your later points, are there any examples where a character was actually said or shown to be chosen by destiny? NOA said Link and Zelda were chosen by destiny in OoT, but Jumbie revealed that the Japanese script refers to the goddesses instead. And sure, there are people destined to be chosen, but I think that's a different kettle of fish altogether. If there aren't any examples of people chosen by destiny, can we really assume such a concept exists in the Zelda canon?

Edited by Raian, 01 October 2008 - 05:11 PM.

[FDL]

I never saw such a parallel and I don't remember Fyxe of HoL referring to it. Sure, Ganondorf is close to death and he suddenly acquires power from the ToP; that could certainly support the belief that the ToP works to protect the holder, and I reckon the creation of Wolf Link might be the same principle.

But what does this have to do with what we were talking about earlier? I thought you were arguing that I was being hypocritical by referring to Adult OoT to explain TP's events, to which I responded by arguing that the events in TP were perfectly capable of explaining themselves. I believe that to keep the story from becoming too complicated, the writers would explain all the relevant information in TP itself; including Ganondorf's potential abilities with the ToP. Even if there are parallels to OoT, I don't believe the writers would rely on those parallels to establish TP's back story.

A. I know Fyxe and HoL have referred to it in the past.
B. That wasn't in response to the "OoT thing", it was just in response to a different part of what you said.
C. I'm not saying that they relied on the parallelism to explain it, I'm just saying that Ganondorf gaining new powers when in danger is nothing new. But, yeah, if you don't want to bring OoT into this Wolf Link's situation shows the same thing. I'll mention again, these pieces of evidence aren't being included because I think the developers based everything on random parts of OoT or whatever. The evidence is simply being used to show there are other instances of situations similar to what we're talking about, that don't involve "Divine Pranking".

PS: With regard to one of your later points, are there any examples where a character was actually said or shown to be chosen by destiny? NOA said Link and Zelda were chosen by destiny in OoT, but Jumbie revealed that the Japanese script refers to the goddesses instead. And sure, there are people destined to be chosen, but I think that's a different kettle of fish altogether. If there aren't any examples of people chosen by destiny, can we really assume such a concept exists in the Zelda canon?

I wasn't necessarily talking about being "chosen by destiny". I was using fate/destiny in the general sense. As in, can-refer-to-being-chosen-by-the-gods.

[Raien]

The evidence is simply being used to show there are other instances of situations similar to what we're talking about, that don't involve "Divine Pranking".

But these parallels are with events after Ganondorf acquired the Triforce of Power, which are naturally going to be similar because Ganondorf possesses the same power. If Ganondorf enterred the Sacred Realm in the Child Timeline, then we need to see evidence that parallels Ganondorf enterring the Sacred Realm in the Adult Timeline. You raise the description of Ganondorf's invasion of Hyrule paralleling TWW's description of OoT, but what if "Sacred Land Hyrule" is not the Sacred Realm?

Before you write your response, let me just say this. If the description of Ganondorf's invasion is the only parallel relating strictly to Ganondorf's acquisition of the Triforce, then there is no point in continuing this debate any further. I don't expect you to change your mind on "Sacred Land Hyrule" being the "Sacred Realm", so that point thus comes to a dead end. If you do have more parallels to raise, then we can discuss those instead.

[FDL]

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. My comparisons between the way TWW and TP describe events was only in response to this:

b) There are no references to Ganondorf enterring the Sacred Realm in the Child Timeline (and I don't believe Twilight Princess even refers to the Sacred Realm at all). You are expecting me to believe in an invisible event based upon possible circumstances surrounding OoT Link's return to the past, as well as a possible interpretation of Aonuma's Nintendo Dream interview, but we forget that Nintendo wouldn't expect new players to take either of these things into consideration with a new release ten years after OoT. Although Zelda games have always been ambiguous with their back stories, Nintendo have never created any full-blown plot holes that could cause harm to a new player's enjoyment. I don't believe that Ganondorf took the Triforce of Power in the Child Timeline, because Nintendo did not introduce the possibility to Twilight Princess.

You asserted that the Child Timeline could not involve the SR being broken into because TP doesn't (necessarily) explicitly mention the SR, and would have to do so for new players. That's what made me bring up TWW. My main point was that even the much less vague TWW doesn't explain to a huge degree how Ganondorf came to obtain the Triforce, what the Sacred Realm really is, or several other things. It relies on past knowledge, just as TP does. Anything else you may have thought about what I was saying about this issue appears to have been a misunderstanding.

Edited by FDL, 01 October 2008 - 07:01 PM.

[Impossible]

FDL, I don't even know what you're talking about, particularly as it doesn't seem like you know what I'm talking about, either. I was responding to Lex's theory, which suggests things that make no logical sense. And while what you said really has nothing to do with my point anyway, I should point out that Link has done enough in factual, canon events to be a hero and to be one of the reasons Ganondorf's plan was prevented. Your suggestions of what is supposedly necessary don't make any sense, as it's just making up extra events when we can already piece together what happened. Ganondorf didn't have the ToP before his execution, because that would suggest that he's a complete idiot (letting himself be captured and fatally wounded, even though he had the power to conquer Hyrule, real clever), as well as suggesting that the sages, despite their omniscience and knowledge, are also complete idiots (ignoring Ganondorf's power, putting him in a situation he could obviously escape). Hence why it would be illogical. Of course, if Ganondorf had received the ToP earlier, he would have done EXACTLY WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW HE DID on the Adult Timeline. The entire point of the Child Timeline is the different course of events that prevented this from happening and prevented Ganondorf from touching the Triforce. Would it help anything if Link had fought Ganondorf without the Master Sword and gotten his ass kicked?

I also didn't call anyone a moron, so please don't twist my words. The argument is moronic. I can't help it if I'm sick of old, tired, unproductive arguments over stupid things. That means I think I'm better than everyone else? ...You must hate Obama.

By the way, nobody's taking the "divine prank" literally unless they actually believe the goddesses were playing a prank on Hyrule. Whining that it's not what happened at all because it isn't literal misses the point. If any other shit happened, maybe there would be some evidence of it. There isn't. Remember that part where real human beings have a story they're trying to convey to us? They'll tell us what we're supposed to know. It's clear from the cutscene when Ganondorf received the ToP - he expected to die until it saved him.

Edited by Impossible, 02 October 2008 - 06:33 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I really do think the Dark World of FSA is the same Realm as in OoT and ALttP. My reason is, 1 Ganondorf turned into Ganon when he entered the Dark World, 2 Ganon can transport you to the Dark World during the final, 3 the Moon Pearl can't just be conincendence 4 The Knights of Hyrule turned into monsters when they entered the Dark World.

It's not.

1) Ganondorf turned into Ganon when he got the Trident. In the Real World. 2) So what? Any asshole can use teleportation magic. 3) The Moon Pearl doesn't look, or act the same, and in FSA there's dozens instead of just the one. 4) Turning into the reflection of your heart, and being brainwashed and corrupted into a demon aren't the same thing.

LoZ and AoL can go either before or after LttP there is evidence both ways. The box isn't a very good source on canon material IMO. Besides, there are official interviews with people who've placed it in my order. OoT is the LttP backstory, the makers of the game said so. game makers > you.

Have you even read these interviews, or are you just repeating what Lexxi said? Because most people on the forum don't agree with him on this issue; the box is perfectly canon unless contradicted, which it's not. Plus, it just works better. How can you go from a kingdom with a recently reunited Triforce and two Princess Zeldas and a split, barren country, to one where the Triforce has been in the Sacred Realm since ancient times and the country is united, prosperous, and had a few more Hylians? When not even Zelda and Link are Hylians, you're pretty much at the end of the timeline, yo.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Because most people on the forum don't agree with him on this issue; the box is perfectly canon unless contradicted, which it's not.

The box hasn't been contradicted? It's been contradicted twice: by Miyamoto (OoT-LoZ/AoL-ALttP) and Osawa (OoT=IW; OoT no longer connects directly to ALttP as of TWW). This is like saying the single timeline hasn't been contradicted.

How can you go from a kingdom with a recently reunited Triforce and two Princess Zeldas and a split, barren country, to one where the Triforce has been in the Sacred Realm since ancient times and the country is united, prosperous, and had a few more Hylians? When not even Zelda and Link are Hylians, you're pretty much at the end of the timeline, yo.

1) The entire point of LoZ/AoL is to make the country united and prosperous. Presumably the country is only not prosperous because it awaits a "new king" who will be the "light of hope" for Hyrule.
2) The Deku Tree is supposed to be bringing the islands together; the fact that there is a game in which this has not happened yet is irrelevant.
3) There's no evidence that there're no Hylians in LoZ/AoL; the concept hadn't been developed yet. In fact, according to official art made to illustrate the story after the concept was developed in ALttP, most people do.

Ganondorf didn't have the ToP before his execution, because that would suggest that he's a complete idiot (letting himself be captured and fatally wounded, even though he had the power to conquer Hyrule, real clever), as well as suggesting that the sages, despite their omniscience and knowledge, are also complete idiots (ignoring Ganondorf's power, putting him in a situation he could obviously escape).

1) You have to assume that no one could have possibly captured Ganondorf while he has the Triforce of Power to assume then that my argument is illogical, despite the fact that he is clearly captured in TP and clearly has the Triforce of Power.

2) The sages themselves admit to being careless in the game itself; why is it then illogical to make the claim that they were careless?

If any other shit happened, maybe there would be some evidence of it.

One tends to see the same thing that happened in a prior game that's the prequel to the current one as being evidence for the same thing happening. >_>

The entire point of the Child Timeline is the different course of events that prevented this from happening and prevented Ganondorf from touching the Triforce.

This is fun, and when used as an argument, circular.

I don't agree. The entire point of the Child Timeline is that a different course of events prevented Ganondorf from taking over Hyrule. If the developers wanted Ganondorf to be prevented from obtaining the Triforce, why would they write it into the next game anyway without adequate explanation?

I could very easily say that your argument requires that the developers really have no point to the Child timeline, because the point you claim they do have they effectively efface.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 02 October 2008 - 09:37 AM.

[FDL]

FDL, I don't even know what you're talking about, particularly as it doesn't seem like you know what I'm talking about, either. I was responding to Lex's theory, which suggests things that make no logical sense.

You can't blame me for thinking you were speaking to me. You mentioned that it was moronic that the Divine Prank was being argued, and I know from your big timeline theory file that you believe Ganondorf randomly gained the Triforce at the Arbiters Ground. I was discussing it more than Lex was, and did so first.

And while what you said really has nothing to do with my point anyway, I should point out that Link has done enough in factual, canon events to be a hero and to be one of the reasons Ganondorf's plan was prevented. Your suggestions of what is supposedly necessary don't make any sense, as it's just making up extra events when we can already piece together what happened.

You're right, you don't know what I'm talking about. My point is, if Link went back to a time before he even met Zelda/Darunia/Ruto/etc., he would not be known so well hundreds of years later. When TP Link's garb and actions immediately remind everyone of the old hero, this old hero has to have done something that would keep him in the mind of all the tribes in Hyrule.

Ganondorf didn't have the ToP before his execution, because that would suggest that he's a complete idiot (letting himself be captured and fatally wounded, even though he had the power to conquer Hyrule, real clever),

Um, no, it wouldn't. It would suggest he was captured because he was overconfident and was thus captured, which is exactly what the Sages say. Hell, that line actually suggests he did gain the Triforce before the AG scene, because he was not "overconfidently blind to any danger" back then.

as well as suggesting that the sages, despite their omniscience and knowledge, are also complete idiots (ignoring Ganondorf's power, putting him in a situation he could obviously escape).

I'm not sure how they're omniscient, but that's besides the point. The Sages freely admit that they misjudged his/their power when they tried to stop his evil magic. This would not be "overestimating" if Ganondorf only gained the ToP after they captured and stabbed him, because if not for DEM he would have died.

I mean, if they were talking about Ganondorf gaining the ToP at the AG when they said they overestimated him, then the game really doesn't do well at conveying things. Because that's basically like you and I getting into a fight, you beating me to near unconciousness, and then some sniper shooting you before I fall unconcious. You would not say you overestimated your abilities and underestimated mine if that happened, and likewise the Sages would not say something like that if literal DEM caused Ganondorf to get the advantage over them.

So yeah, if you want to act like that's so illogical speak to the script writers. It is stated in the game that both the Sages and Ganondorf WERE being idiotically overconfident.

Hence why it would be illogical. Of course, if Ganondorf had received the ToP earlier, he would have done EXACTLY WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW HE DID on the Adult Timeline. The entire point of the Child Timeline is the different course of events that prevented this from happening and prevented Ganondorf from touching the Triforce. Would it help anything if Link had fought Ganondorf without the Master Sword and gotten his ass kicked?

The whole point of the Child Timeline is for Link to gain back his lost years. Even if Ganondorf gained the ToP, it would not necessarily cause the CT to be the same as the AT, because there's still Link to contend with now. The fact is, you don't know what his being there could've done. For all we know, Link changed the future by seeking out the Sages and telling them about Ganondorf.

I also didn't call anyone a moron, so please don't twist my words. The argument is moronic. I can't help it if I'm sick of old, tired, unproductive arguments over stupid things. That means I think I'm better than everyone else? ...You must hate Obama.

Are we having this moronic divine prank argument again? How can anyone even think this is necessary? ...Oh yeah, right.

The "Oh yeah, right" seems to imply that the explanation for why we're having a "moronic argument" is that I'm a moron. And I already apologized for bringing it up again. However, I don't like the attitude that we shouldn't discuss something if you disagree with it and believe it to be "moronic" to argue about it.

By the way, nobody's taking the "divine prank" literally unless they actually believe the goddesses were playing a prank on Hyrule. Whining that it's not what happened at all because it isn't literal misses the point.

That's what they were doing if Ganondorf randomly gained the Triforce right at the most inopportune moment, and did so after Link gained the ToC before/in OoT's ending.

If any other shit happened, maybe there would be some evidence of it. There isn't. Remember that part where real human beings have a story they're trying to convey to us? They'll tell us what we're supposed to know. It's clear from the cutscene when Ganondorf received the ToP - he expected to die until it saved him.

He didn't seem surprised at all that he had the ToP. Besides, Ganondorf thought he was going to die at the end of OoT before the Triforce gave him a second wind and turned him into Ganon. Link didn't know what was going to happen when he was pulled into the Twilight until he turned into Wolf Link. In both of those instances they already had the Triforce. This is really no different.

[Hero of Legend]

I know Fyxe and HoL have referred to it in the past.

Indeed. You can't deny that TP, much like TWW, depends on the past knowledge of the player to tell the full story. In this scene, we are show; a) Ganondorf riding against a backdrop of flames (taken directly from OoT), b) we are told about his followers ("Why is the desert called the Gerudo Desert, anyway?") in what is apparently an ALttP reference, 3) once Ganondorf has been stabbed, the whole thing turns into an a recollection of OoT's ending battle, complete with the Escape from Ganon's Tower music and Ganondorf growing pupil-less eyes and fangs in what is cleary the early stages of transformation into Ganon, much like in OoT.

Clearly, you need to have played OoT to get the full message here - and perhaps you're supposed to go "Oh, I know why this happened!" istead of "Lolwut?" like the Sages did. Yeah, I know Nintendo doesn't want to alleinate new fans and all that, but is that really a problem here? After all, does a new player really need to know where Ganondorf got the ToP from to enjoy TP itself? No, not really (much like in TWW didn't tell you about the SR, actually). That's probably why we don't really know how he got it. Yeah, the goddesses did it to stage the battle between good and evil and bring the Twili back into the fold, that we know, but I think we can all agree the exact sircumstances are rather vauge. Of course, IMO, the fact that TP even suggest something different than what OoT is reason enough to re-evaluate our theories, but what conclusions we draw? That's another matter.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 02 October 2008 - 10:48 AM.

[FDL]

To add to those references, there's also the musical and visual references to OoT when Lanayru is telling Link about the Twili, the "place where the power of the gods was said to sleep" stuff, Ganondorf quoting the Triforce when he appears before Zant, the references to who made the Master Sword, the many mentions of the ancient hero, the way the Triforce is never referred to by name, all of the stuff involving the Sheikah and Impa, etc. Twilight Princess is rife with references to past games(some/most of which are actually story-relevant) and these references require you to have played past games to understand them. I don't see how it can be argued that the developers expected people to get these references without playing other games in the series.

Edited by FDL, 02 October 2008 - 11:02 AM.

[Raien]

My belief about Nintendo's writing is this:
-If something is directly relevant to the current story, then it should be explained to the new audience for their enjoyment (i.e. Impaz's tribe protecting the Sky Book).
-If that something can then be expanded for the veteran audience, then it serves as an added source of enjoyment for them (i.e. Impaz's tribe being the Sheikah from OoT).

Hero of Legend argued in his previous post that how Ganondorf received the Triforce of Power is not really important to the events of Twilight Princess, thus it falls into the category of "bonus enjoyment for the veterans". I disagree; it was through Ganondorf's reception of the Triforce of Power that the events of Twilight Princess were instigated. If the execution does not show that event, then we are left with a plot hole.

Edited by Raian, 02 October 2008 - 11:38 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I disagree; it was through Ganondorf's reception of the Triforce of Power that the events of Twilight Princess were instigated. If the execution does not show that event, then we are left with a plot hole.

I would argue that there is a plot hole in any case, as Ganondorf's goal to obtain the Triforce is completely forgotten in TP, both when explaining his motivations for invading Hyrule and over the course of the game itself.

[Raien]

I would argue that there is a plot hole in any case, as Ganondorf's goal to obtain the Triforce is completely forgotten in TP, both when explaining his motivations for invading Hyrule and over the course of the game itself.

To be fair, Ganondorf's real goal was to conquer Hyrule, and that was explained in TP. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the Triforce had nothing to do with Ganondorf's second invasion, as his first strike at Hyrule's Royal Family would have alerted them to his original plans.

[Hero of Legend]

Hero of Legend argued in his previous post that how Ganondorf received the Triforce of Power is not really important to the events of Twilight Princess, thus it falls into the category of "bonus enjoyment for the veterans". I disagree; it was through Ganondorf's reception of the Triforce of Power that the events of Twilight Princess were instigated. If the execution does not show that event, then we are left with a plot hole.

Well it wouldn't be the first...

Anyway, I don't think so. Ganondorf's blessing is no different from Link and Zelda's in that neither is properly explained. Even if he had it before that scene no real meaning is lost, and no statement is outright contradicted. As for the scene itself, it shows how Ganondorf ended up in the Twilight Realm so it acts as an instigation either way.

[Lexxi Aileron]

To be fair, Ganondorf's real goal was to conquer Hyrule, and that was explained in TP. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the Triforce had nothing to do with Ganondorf's second invasion, as his first strike at Hyrule's Royal Family would have alerted them to his original plans.

Still doesn't change the fact that it's never mentioned, despite the fact that that goal is apparently fulfilled in TP.

[Raien]

Anyway, I don't think so. Ganondorf's blessing is no different from Link and Zelda's in that neither is properly explained. Even if he had it before that scene no real meaning is lost, and no statement is outright contradicted. As for the scene itself, it shows how Ganondorf ended up in the Twilight Realm so it acts as an instigation either way.

Then I submit that we end this debate, as this is the base point that we can't agree.

[FDL]

I'm fine with ending the debate, but I do want to ask a question. What is so different between this and TWW? In that game we have little more explanation about why each character has their piece than in TP.

[Raien]

I'm fine with ending the debate, but I do want to ask a question. What is so different between this and TWW? In that game we have little more explanation about why each character has their piece than in TP.

As I see it, the point of OoT was to save Hyrule in both timelines, thus Link was able to live his childhood in peace (if he so wished). If Ganondorf was able to take the Triforce of Power at that point, I feel it would defeat the point of OoT's ending, and I don't believe the writers would have made such a change. Also, I find parallels hard to accept as evidence because they are more interpretational than any other evidence in the Zelda canon. Parallels tend to prove that two events are related, but not actually explain how they are related (although it's quite easy for theorists *not accusing anyone* to assume the explanation and then state the parallel as if it proved the explanation).

[Hero of Legend]

As I see it, the point of OoT was to save Hyrule in both timelines, thus Link was able to live his childhood in peace (if he so wished). If Ganondorf was able to take the Triforce of Power at that point, I feel it would defeat the point of OoT's ending, and I don't believe the writers would have made such a change.

Yet Link did have the Triforce of Courage in OoT's ending (could this have been used in TP?). And since Ganondorf was apprehended before he could cause any real trouble, it's not much of a change anyway.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 02 October 2008 - 01:03 PM.

[Raien]

Yet Link did have the Triforce of Courage in OoT's ending (could this have been used in TP?). And since Ganondorf was apprehended before he could cause any real trouble, it's not much of a change anyway.

Link did have the Triforce of Courage (and I can believe Ganondorf had the Triforce of Power, although I doubt he was aware of it), but I don't see how this offset the tone of OoT's ending; it was clear that Ganondorf was not able to reach the power he used to conquer Hyrule in the Adult timeline.

Also, I don't believe that Ganondorf could have been apprehended if he was aware that he possessed the Triforce of Power, because he was clearly unstoppable with it in Twilight Princess. I also don't believe that conveniently Ganondorf could not use the Triforce of Power until after the execution, because I don't think it makes real sense and I don't think it is very well proven.

Edited by Raian, 02 October 2008 - 01:16 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Link did have the Triforce of Courage (and I can believe Ganondorf had the Triforce of Power, although I doubt he was aware of it), but I don't see how this offset the tone of OoT's ending; it was clear that Ganondorf was not able to reach the power he used to conquer Hyrule in the Adult timeline.

Yes, I agree. That's also what happened in TP.

Also, I don't believe that Ganondorf could have been apprehended if he was aware that he possessed the Triforce of Power, because he was clearly unstoppable with it in Twilight Princess. I also don't believe that conveniently Ganondorf could not use the Triforce of Power until after the execution, because I don't think it makes real sense and I don't think it is very well proven.

Maybe, but the game makes a point that 'he was blind to any danger' so I don't think it's impossible. The rest of the game doesn't rule out the possibility that he could have been defeated either; after all, we see him wounded by the Sages Sword, the light arrows, and even Midna. Also, I see why you don't think it makes sense that Ganondorf would be unable to break free until after he was stabbed, but as you well know, the same is true for OoT when he spat blood and his tower collapsed on top of him.

Of course, this only brings us to another stalemate. There are no winners in this debate. In fact, I'm not even sure what to think. Well, that's Nintendo's storytelling for you.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 02 October 2008 - 01:52 PM.

[FDL]

Those are some good points, HoL. But I guess if it's a stalemate we can stop debating it. However, I'm not sure how one can say that OoT's ending implies anything about Ganondorf not obtaining the Triforce. The ToC on Link's hand seems to imply the opposite, in fact.

[Raien]

However, I'm not sure how one can say that OoT's ending implies anything about Ganondorf not obtaining the Triforce. The ToC on Link's hand seems to imply the opposite, in fact.

The question is, did Link have the ToC because Ganondorf took the ToP from the Sacred Realm? Or did the goddesses (or destiny) give both Link and Ganondorf their Triforce pieces when the timeline split? If Link in OoT/TP was able to possess the Triforce of Courage without being aware of it, then the same could be said for Ganondorf up until the execution.

[wring]

But Link only had the Triforce of courage because he obtained it in the future. Ganondorf would have to go back in time with Link to keep his Triforce of Power.

Its the way timetravel works in Zelda, if you obtain something in the future, when you go back in time you keep it. You can't use some of the items ment for an adult/child to use, but I still believe you keep all your items when you time travel. Like when you obtain the Goron and Zora Tunic it says its an adult size. When you go back in time and become a kid, you keep the tunic, but you can't use it because you're too small to fit inside of it. Heart Containers you collect as an adult, disapear in the child timeline, too. I think that Link's items also get younger like Link gets younger, so that there arn't two items appearing in the same point in time, and there arn't two Link's appearing in the same point in time.

I think the Triforce of Power and the Triforce of Wisdom are inside of the sealed Sacred Realm, while the Triforce of Courage somehow teleported to Link, since he obtained it in the future. Plus the whole point of sealing the Sacred Realm was to stop Ganondorf from obtaining the Triforce of Power. There's no way Ganondorf and Zelda could've obtained the other two pieces of the Triforce because they didn't travel through time. It'd be like Dante suddenly dying when Link returned because he's dead in the adult timeline. It couldn't have happened that way.

[Raien]

But Link only had the Triforce of courage because he obtained it in the future. Ganondorf would have to go back in time with Link to keep his Triforce of Power.

According to TWW (original Japanese script), the Triforce of Courage split into fragments when OoT Link was sent back in time. So how could OoT Link still possess the ToC in the Child Timeline, unless he had received it through some other means?

[FDL]

The question is, did Link have the ToC because Ganondorf took the ToP from the Sacred Realm? Or did the goddesses (or destiny) give both Link and Ganondorf their Triforce pieces when the timeline split? If Link in OoT/TP was able to possess the Triforce of Courage without being aware of it, then the same could be said for Ganondorf up until the execution.

I thought we were talking about what OoT's ending implies? Going only by that game, the implication is that Ganondorf had probably obtained the ToP(considering the Legend of the Triforce). Of course, you could make a case for destiny/gods(which is why this is a stalemate in some ways), but with only OoT's ending in mind I'm not sure you could say it's implied.