506 replies to this topic

[FDL]

Well, to put it simply: Whatever the case might be today, Ganondorf simply is not said to be chosen in OoT. It could be argued it’s still implied because the chosen ones would “carry the crests on the back of their hands” which Ganondorf does, but on the other hand Ganondorf, who touched the Triforce, was distinctly differentiated from those “chosen by the gods to hold the other two pieces.”

That said, it is a simple fact that Ganondorf is chosen in TP, and that he has a Triforce crest to prove it.

Now we all have to decide if the crests in TP are fundamentally different from those in the other Zelda games (Raian thinks so, I believe), or if Nintendo is just taking some liberties with the mythos of previous titles, and they're essentially the same. If you choose the former, TP is an isolated special-case of divine intervention, and if you choose the latter, it changes the meaning of the crests entirely (from 'general Triforce-wielder' to 'chosen Triforce-wielder').

Personally, I think TWW moved in the same direction as TP with the whole 'fated battle between good and evil' being mentioned in both games, so IMO it would be rather unfair if Ganondorf didn't get his ‘chosen’ piece. This idea is supported, in a way, by Twilight Princess making a difference between Ganondorf (the prime evil) and the Twili (just a bunch of sorcerers) and granting him the ToP (no matter if it was given to him or if he was merely allowed to take it), along with Link and Zelda.

Yes, it appears ducking it out for the fate of the world is what life’s all about if the gods have any say in the matter.

How does it really change the meaning? It may clarify the meaning further(in a perhaps retcony way) but there was no indication that this was not the case before. And as I mentioned, the Legend as told in ALttP does mention that the crests were waiting for people who were "suitable" for that power.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 29 September 2008 - 06:14 PM.

[Raien]

How does it really change the meaning? It may clarify the meaning further(in a perhaps retcony way) but there was no indication that this was not the case before. And as I mentioned, the Legend as told in ALttP does mention that the crests were waiting for people who were "suitable" for that power. And as you mentioned, TWW and TP both have the indications that it's almost fate that this is happening.

To be more specific, the legend in ALttP said that the whole Triforce was waiting in the Sacred Realm for someone worthy to claim it. I believe that the qualities that define worthiness in this context were described by AoL's King of Hyrule; namely a heart free of evil and innate qualities. But of course, whatever function the Triforce was meant to perform (to keep order and peace in Hyrule) did not prevent an evil man from using it. Ganon took it in the Imprisoning War, after all.

[FDL]

I was talking about this:

The Triforce would continue to shine in a sacred place that exists somewhere in the world, until persons would appear who had the three crests of, respectively, "one who rules power", "one who administers wisdom", and "one who trains/tempers courage", and who were suitable of inheriting this power.

It seems to refer to multiple people, and appears to also mention that each one would have a crest if they were suitable for that power. Or something like that. I've found this paragraph to be rather confusing, so I could be reading it wrong.

[MikePetersSucks]

I don't see how the TP characters' situation with the Triforce is any different.

[Hero of Legend]

How does it really change the meaning? It may clarify the meaning further(in a perhaps retcony way) but there was no indication that this was not the case before.

"If one who touches the sacred triangle... has the three forces in balance, that one will gain the True Force to govern all. If however… that one doesn't have all forces, then the sacred triangle will separate into three: Power, Wisdom and Courage. Afterwards, only one of the three remains... that is the core which that one believes in. If that one seeks the True Force, that one should recover the two lost forces. Those two forces… will reside on the backs of the hands of those newly chosen by the gods."

There you have it - only the two with the other crests are chosen by the gods. We are given no reason to think otherwise.

You assume the fact that the Triforce dwells within Ganondorf to be proof that he is chosen, but that's simply not the case. Even TWW Link was said to be chosen long before he got the ToC, although the fact that he got it was proof that he was the Hero (and also, given how Link and Zelda were “newly” chosen to have their pieces in OoT, that appears to have been the case in TWW as well). Your argument is logical fallacy, akin to this;

Lisa is sick.
People with fever are sick.

Therefore:

Lisa has fever.

Which is not necessarily the case, because you can be sick without having fever.

Same with your argument;

Ganondorf has a Triforce dwelling within him.
People with Triforces within them are chosen.

Therefore:

Ganondorf is chosen.

You have a hidden premise here - that only chosen people can have Triforces within them - but that assumption is not supported by OoT and as such I didn't include it. You therefore fall into the same trap as the first argument. The real argument goes as such (and this is all we can say, based on evidence from OoT);

People with Triforces within them are either chosen OR have touched the Triforce.
Ganondorf has touched the Triforce.

Therefore:

Ganondorf has a Triforce piece dwelling within him.

He may be chosen, but we are given no reason to think he is. In fact, the way that sentence is worded, it seems to imply the opposite. Like I said, TWW and TP treat this issue differently. But OoT says no such thing, so it is pointless to argue about it.

But as for the Triforce in ALTTP... I've got no idea. That’s just confusing. I don't believe it is relevant to this discussion, however - it's still just an ideal, and Ganondorf could have (and did) touch it without those crests.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 September 2008 - 10:28 AM.

[wring]

But how could Ganondorf touch the Triforce if the door to the Sacred Realm had never been opened by Link?

Anyways, I beat FSA, and ITS AWESOME!

Anyways, here are some points I'd like to make.

How do Force Gems = Life Force? The only connection made is in Minish Cap Zelda gets turned to Stone, and in Phantom Hourglass Tetra gets turned to stone. But the thing is the circumstances are completely different. Tetra got turned to stone because her lifeforce was drained from her, Zelda got turned to stone because Vatti cast a spell on her. Zelda keeps her Light Force throughout the game, till the end where it gets scattered across Hyrule, she never loses it. If the Light Force is Life Force, Zelda shouldn't have been turned to stone till it was almost completely removed from her. Also, the spell Vatti cast on Zelda was a spell that turned her to stone, but the chant of the spell didn't mention anything about removing her life force, it was just "turn into stone" (not exactly). The Light Force could possibly be force gems, since it sealed away all of vatti's monsters, and was scattered across Hyrule in the end of the game, but I don't think it has any relation with the sands of life.

Vatti's seal = Minish Cap? I was just thinking about the end of Minish Cap, when Zelda made her wish and all the monsters dissappeared. I thought maybe the monsters got resealed in the four sword. Think about it, Zelda undid all of Vatti's evil. So one could assume the monsters went back to where they came from the Picori Blade AKA the Four Sword. So its not to big of a leap to have Vatti himself sealed inside the four sword, with his monsters. And then when Link pulls out the four sword in FS then all the monsters and Vatti would be released.

[FDL]

I don't see how the TP characters' situation with the Triforce is any different.

Is that in agreement or...?

"If one who touches the sacred triangle... has the three forces in balance, that one will gain the True Force to govern all. If however… that one doesn't have all forces, then the sacred triangle will separate into three: Power, Wisdom and Courage. Afterwards, only one of the three remains... that is the core which that one believes in. If that one seeks the True Force, that one should recover the two lost forces. Those two forces… will reside on the backs of the hands of those newly chosen by the gods."

There you have it - only the two with the other crests are chosen by the gods. We are given no reason to think otherwise.

What? That doesn't say that Ganondorf would recieve a crest, or that he wasn't chosen. It's not even speaking about Ganondorf's situation at all, in fact. It's talking exclusively about Zelda and Link in that bolded part. As I said, the ToP "remaining" with Ganondorf does not imply it began to dwell within him or that it didn't, just that it remained with him.

You assume the fact that the Triforce dwells within Ganondorf to be proof that he is chosen, but that's simply not the case. Even TWW Link was said to be chosen long before he got the ToC, although the fact that he got it was proof that he was the Hero (and also, given how Link and Zelda were “newly” chosen to have their pieces in OoT, that appears to have been the case in TWW as well).

The Wind Waker Link was not chosen by the gods to have the power of the Triforce until that scene in which he gained the crest on the back of his hand. If he were, it would have resided within him immediately.

Your argument is logical fallacy, akin to this;

Lisa is sick.
People with fever are sick.

Therefore:

Lisa has fever.

Which is not necessarily the case, because you can be sick without having fever.

Same with your argument;

Ganondorf has a Triforce dwelling within him.
People with Triforces within them are chosen.

Therefore:

Ganondorf is chosen.

You have a hidden premise here - that only chosen people can have Triforces within them - but that assumption is not supported by OoT and as such I didn't include it. You therefore fall into the same trap as the first argument. The real argument goes as such (and this is all we can say, based on evidence from OoT);

People with Triforces within them are either chosen OR have touched the Triforce.
Ganondorf has touched the Triforce.

Therefore:

Ganondorf has a Triforce piece dwelling within him.

He may be chosen, but we are given no reason to think he is. In fact, the way that sentence is worded, it seems to imply the opposite. Like I said, TWW and TP treat this issue differently. But OoT says no such thing, so it is pointless to argue about it.

You may claim my argument is a logical fallacy, but you don't accurately represent what it is. The crests have always been associated with "chosen ones", even if OoT didn't explicitly state that Ganondorf was or wasn't one. Your "real" argument is disingenuous because it includes something that does not hold true within the games: that a person who obtains a Triforce will always have it on the back of their hand. That is not supported by the quote you gave, although it doesn't support my argument either, and instead appears to be disagreed with by later games. Maybe I'm missing something, but as far as I can remember OoT never, ever states conclusively why the Triforce mark is on Ganondorf's hand, and I don't see how the line you posted "implies the opposite" either. It could be assumed back then that that's just how Triforces work, but the fact that we see later things that conflict with that idea makes it much less clear cut.

[jacensolo06]

How do Force Gems = Life Force?

In Japanese, both of them are called the exact same thing. They're called "Force". This isn't just using the same word since it uses the English word. This means they're meant to be the same thing.

[wring]

Here are some timeline possibilities I've been thinking of.
Possible Child Timeline
MC-FS/FSA-OoT-WW/PH

possible Adult Timeline
MC-FS/FSA-OoT/MM-TP-LoZ/AoL-OoA/OoS-ALttP/LA

Ok, what's nice about this timeline is the Knights of Hyrule are alive in the correct time period, and then die out. Also, you could easily say the transformation in FSA isn't permanent, but a temporary transformation, like in the other games. Also, it explains why nobody recognises Ganon's name, and nobody really knows allot about Ganondorf. Also, I like LoZ/AoL-OoA/OoS there because 1 Master Sword appears in Oracles, and it can't appear after A Link to the Past, and 2 It helps explain how the Pieces of the Triforce got back together for ALttP. You could say that the pieces returned to the Dark Realm after OoA/OoS. Also, the Dark World could've been created either at OoT, or shortly afterwards, and it lasted until Ganon died once and for all at A Link to the Past, because Ganondorf never gets revived after that game, atleast on my timeline. Also, it follows the information given during interviews.

[Hero of Legend]

What? That doesn't say that Ganondorf would recieve a crest, or that he wasn't chosen. It's not even speaking about Ganondorf's situation at all, in fact. It's talking exclusively about Zelda and Link in that bolded part. As I said, the ToP "remaining" with Ganondorf does not imply it began to dwell within him or that it didn't, just that it remained with him.

Obviously you did not understand me. The fact that it is not talking about Ganondorf is precisely why it's important. You see, only those who were awarded their pieces by the gods are said to be chosen. Ganondorf is never implied to be chosen. So how can you argue that he is?

The Wind Waker Link was not chosen by the gods to have the power of the Triforce until that scene in which he gained the crest on the back of his hand. If he were, it would have resided within him immediately.

I thought I made it clear I made a difference between the act of choosing Link as the bearer of the ToC and choosing him to be a Hero. The former was the ultimate proof of the latter.

You may claim my argument is a logical fallacy, but you don't accurately represent what it is. The crests have always been associated with "chosen ones"

Evidence? The ALttP quote doesn’t speak about chosen ones, although if it was correctly translated, it could refer to something like TP.

Your "real" argument is disingenuous because it includes something that does not hold true within the games: that a person who obtains a Triforce will always have it on the back of their hand.

It takes into account all of the times when such crests have appeared. That's all it has to do. Either you are chosen by the gods, or you touch the Triforce with an unbalanced heart. Has anyone ever touched the Triforce and received a Triforce piece without having it dwell within him? Since the answer is no, you do not have a case.

That is not supported by the quote you gave, although it doesn't support my argument either, and instead appears to be disagreed with by later games. Maybe I'm missing something, but as far as I can remember OoT never, ever states conclusively why the Triforce mark is on Ganondorf's hand, and I don't see how the line you posted "implies the opposite" either. It could be assumed back then that that's just how Triforces work, but the fact that we see later things that conflict with that idea makes it much less clear cut.

It implies the opposite because Zelda treats the two "newly chosen by the gods" as entirely different from the one who touched the Triforce. She could have said all three were chosen to have a piece, but didn't. Ergo, we are led to believe the one who touched the Triforce needn't be chosen to receive the piece that was rightfully his.

As for your "well, latter games say this..." argument, those games say that regardless of what OoT says. TP doesn't give a shit about how things worked in previous games. Neither did OoT with its prequels. It's like arguing that Ganon's trident was important in ALttP because it played a large role in FSA - completely pointless.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 September 2008 - 02:20 PM.

[FDL]

Obviously you did not understand me. The fact that it is not talking about Ganondorf is precisely why it's important. You see, only those who were awarded their pieces by the gods are said to be chosen. Ganondorf is never implied to be chosen. So how can you argue that he is?

Because it is never said that he isn't. It says that the other two who are awarded the pieces are chosen, but it doesn't say whether or not Ganondorf ended up being chosen. All we know from the quote is this:

If Person 1, who touches the Triforce, has an imbalanced heart they will have one piece remain with them. Persons 2 and 3 will be chosen by the gods to have the Triforce as well. People who are chosen will have crests on their hands.

It does not say "Person 1 will have a crest/the Triforce they retained within them", nor does it say "Person 1 is automatically not a chosen one".

Evidence? The ALttP quote doesn’t speak about chosen ones, although if it was correctly translated, it could refer to something like TP.

It talks about people "suitable of inheriting the powers of the Triforces". As I've said several times now, there is a difference between having the Triforce as an item and having it's strength being bestowed upon you. As for proof, just look at the quotes about crests. They usually refer in some way to what they represent. Hell, didn't you post some of those quotes earlier on?

It takes into account all of the times when such crests have appeared. That's all it has to do. Either you are chosen by the gods, or you touch the Triforce with an unbalanced heart. Has anyone ever touched the Triforce and received a Triforce piece without having it dwell within him? Since the answer is no, you do not have a case.

TWW Link is a character who has obtained a piece of the Triforce and didn't have it immediately come to dwell within him. Midna is a character who came to have a Triforce dwell within them but did not have the crest that signifies chosen status.

It implies the opposite because Zelda treats the two "newly chosen by the gods" as entirely different from the one who touched the Triforce. She could have said all three were chosen to have a piece, but didn't. Ergo, we are led to believe the one who touched the Triforce needn't be chosen to receive the piece that was rightfully his.

See what I said above. Recieving a piece=/=Recieving a crest and the power the piece bestows on a person. I am not arguing that Ganondorf recieving a piece in general makes him chosen. I'm arguing that the crest and Triforce dwelling within him signifies his chosen status.

As for your "well, latter games say this..." argument, those games say that regardless of what OoT says. TP doesn't give a shit about how things worked in previous games. Neither did OoT with its prequels. It's like arguing that Ganon's trident was important in ALttP because it played a large role in FSA - completely pointless.

Ganondorf's trident wasn't important story-wise to ALttP, but that doesn't mean FSA didn't retcon it to be special in some way(if you believe that's what it did). Similarly, the people who say "The Dark Mirror is the same as the Mirror of Gloom" or whatever aren't arguing that it was always intended to be this way, just that in the sense of the overall story it is how it works. Ditto for the IW-OoT connection. I'm not saying that OoT did or didn't say Ganondorf was chosen. Because it didn't say it one way or the other. I'm saying that when we learned more about the Triforce, why it resides within people, and why crests appear on the hands of bearers of the Triforce in TWW and TP it made it much more likely that Ganondorf was a chosen one in OoT. Back in the day, one could assume that everyone who obtains a piece of the Triforce, chosen by the gods or not, had it dwell within their bodies and had a crest on their hands. We now know that's untrue so it's hard to say that it still holds true in OoT, particularly because that was just an assumption in the first place.

[Hero of Legend]

First, I'll say I agree with you, but I'll still post this. Feel free to ignore any points where you weren’t talking about OoT/TWW.

Because it is never said that he isn't. It says that the other two who are awarded the pieces are chosen, but it doesn't say whether or not Ganondorf ended up being chosen. All we know from the quote is this:

If Person 1, who touches the Triforce, has an imbalanced heart they will have one piece remain with them. Persons 2 and 3 will be chosen by the gods to have the Triforce as well. People who are chosen will have crests on their hands.

It does not say "Person 1 will have a crest/the Triforce they retained within them", nor does it say "Person 1 is automatically not a chosen one".

Yup, I already said as much. Of course it doesn't prove that Ganondorf is not chosen. The issue here is that it does not indicate that he is.

It talks about people "suitable of inheriting the powers of the Triforces".

Which means just that - the Triforce was waiting for such persons. However, Ganondorf wasn't suitable in either OoT nor ALttP, and he still got it. There's a difference between someone not being meant to use it, and someone being unable to use it.

As I've said several times now, there is a difference between having the Triforce as an item and having it's strength being bestowed upon you. As for proof, just look at the quotes about crests. They usually refer in some way to what they represent. Hell, didn't you post some of those quotes earlier on?

And again I point out that the Triforce legend is a special case. The crests are not directly linked to being chosen in either OoT or TWW - they just say you have a Triforce piece inside you. Do you need to be chosen for that? Who knows! We could go on about that forever, but OoT, taken by itself, certainly does not indicate that. And again, you can't say there is a difference between possessing a Triforce piece and having it within you after touching the Triforce because in the one case where this has happened, we did not see it.

TWW Link is a character who has obtained a piece of the Triforce and didn't have it immediately come to dwell within him.

Did he touch the Triforce? No.

Midna is a character who came to have a Triforce dwell within them but did not have the crest that signifies chosen status.

I don't think Zelda gave her the ToW, to be honest.

See what I said above. Recieving a piece=/=Recieving a crest and the power the piece bestows on a person. I am not arguing that Ganondorf recieving a piece in general makes him chosen. I'm arguing that the crest and Triforce dwelling within him signifies his chosen status.

Yeah I got that, and maybe in TP that's true, but we're talking OoT here.

I'm not saying that OoT did or didn't say Ganondorf was chosen. Because it didn't say it one way or the other. I'm saying that when we learned more about the Triforce, why it resides within people, and why crests appear on the hands of bearers of the Triforce in TWW and TP it made it much more likely that Ganondorf was a chosen one in OoT. Back in the day, one could assume that everyone who obtains a piece of the Triforce, chosen by the gods or not, had it dwell within their bodies and had a crest on their hands. We now know that's untrue so it's hard to say that it still holds true in OoT, particularly because that was just an assumption in the first place.

So, we agree. It's not from OoT the evidence comes - that's all I'm saying. This discussion started because both you and Raian were poking around with OoT trying to find evidence for your theories. That's pointless because the majority of the themes of latter games were not present in OoT (such as the fate theme). I just wanted to correct that, but like I said before, depending on your interpretation, TP says otherwise.

[FDL]

Well if we're in agreement overall, we don't really need to debate semantics. I understand your main point, and you seem to understand mine, so the minor quibbles are unnecessary. Particularly because some of the disagreements we're having stem perhaps from misunderstandings rather than actual disagreement.

[Raien]

This discussion started because both you and Raian were poking around with OoT trying to find evidence for your theories. That's pointless because the majority of the themes of latter games were not present in OoT (such as the fate theme). I just wanted to correct that, but like I said before, depending on your interpretation, TP says otherwise.

Actually, I wasn't referring to OoT in my theory, but I was debating FDL's references to OoT as evidence. I do not believe that the statements made in OoT, like the reference to lack of control over the power of the gods, are relevant to understanding how Ganondorf got the Triforce of Power in the child timeline, nor are small details in Aonuma's Nintendo Dream interview. Instead, all I'm looking at is the way every character refers to the goddesses in Ganondorf's acquisition of the Triforce; if it wasn't them, then it has to be something that no one knew about, like the timeline-split (as MPS suggested).

Edited by Raian, 30 September 2008 - 04:40 PM.

[FDL]

Actually, you brought up the Legend of the Triforce IIRC, which appears to be the thing HoL is arguing against the most. My references to Ganondorf's "lack of control" and Ganondorf's becoming Ganon are relevant to this discussion because they explain in part why Ganondorf obtaining the Triforce can work in the Child Timeline.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 30 September 2008 - 04:58 PM.

[Raien]

Actually, you brought up the Legend of the Triforce IIRC, which appears to be the thing HoL is arguing against the most. My references to Ganondorf's "lack of control" and Ganondorf's becoming Ganon are relevant to this discussion because they explain in part why Ganondorf obtaining the Triforce can work in the Child Timeline.

You've seen my debates with Lex; you should know that I don't like taking random quotes from different places to construct a theory; putting these quotes together creates the impression of credibility, but it doesn't adhere to the way that writers constuct their stories (especially Zelda writers). No writer would have said "these three random quotes establish to players that Ganondorf could have enterred the Sacred Realm in the child timeline, so we don't need to say anything in Twilight Princess".

Furthermore, I like even less the fact that all the evidence you've provided has multiple meanings or interpretations. It's not as silly as Lex's "sealed away from the world" argument as a basis for connecting FSA to ALttP, but it's the same thing in principle. If any points you made could be conclusively established, then I'd be more understanding, but as it is, it looks like a Lex argument; an invisible event constructed from several random debatable quotes.

It was by no means established that the goddesses consented to give Ganondorf the Triforce of Power, but the evidence in TP alone gives the impression that no one, not even Ganondorf, was aware that he possessed the Triforce of Power until the execution. As far as I am concerned, that is all I need to determine the two possible causes; destiny or the goddesses.

Edited by Raian, 30 September 2008 - 05:21 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

It's not as silly as Lex's "sealed away from the world" argument as a basis for connecting FSA to ALttP

STOP REPEATING THIS. THE CONSTANT SLANDER IS IRRITATING AND UNNECESSARY

You're doing the same thing, anyway; substituting a common metaphor as a literal description. There is no evidence that Ganondorf literally received the Triforce through a "divine prank." He bears a crest just like the chosen ones (like he did in OoT), and he and others believe the crest indicates he is a chosen one.

Only if you assume that the OoT legend specifying the chosen ones as those who receive the other two parts is irrelevant to TP does the evidence (or rather a lack of evidence) even point to such a conclusion. Thus, this debate is not about a matter of evidence, but a matter of whether you look only to TP for evidence as to why the Triforce is split in TP. To me, this makes no sense; if we looked only to TWW for reasons why the Triforce is split in that game we'd have approximately the same evidence and reach approximately the same conclusion.

It's hardly an "invisible event," we saw it happen in OoT and merely use our reasoning to say that that's what happened in TP. In lieu of an alternate explanation, since TP is yet another sequel to OoT, I'd say it's reasonable (debatable, sure, but reasonable) to use the game that is the backdrop for TP as the backdrop for TP. The quotes are hardly "random": in order to explain what we see in one game we use the explanation seen in another. We can hardly expect the developers to hand us the same explanation in every game now, can we? Obviously it was never explained that the Triforce grants wishes in the backdrop of OoT, for example, but they said more or less that and later carried over the concept in TWW.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 30 September 2008 - 05:56 PM.

[wring]

It was by no means established that the goddesses consented to give Ganondorf the Triforce of Power, but the evidence in TP alone gives the impression that no one, not even Ganondorf, was aware that he possessed the Triforce of Power until the execution. As far as I am concerned, that is all I need to determine the two possible causes; destiny or the goddesses.

Like Link and Zelda weren't aware they possesed the Triforce pieces in OoT?

I haven't played Twilight Princess, but I heard the Sages were becoming too arrogant when they tried to execute Ganondorf. Maybe the Goddesses wanted to punish the Sages for their arrogance, and make them realise how weak they are when compared to diety.

I found the quote by the Sages "It was all our doing... We overestimated our ability as Sages and attempted to put an end to Ganondorf's evil magic..."

[Raien]

STOP REPEATING THIS. THE CONSTANT SLANDER IS IRRITATING AND UNNECESSARY

Never! It shows Lex-logic at its best!

You're doing the same thing, anyway; substituting a common metaphor as a literal description. There is no evidence that Ganondorf literally received the Triforce through a "divine prank." He bears a crest just like the chosen ones (like he did in OoT), and he and others believe the crest indicates he is a chosen one.

The "divine prank" line most likely was a metaphor, but I'm also referring to the fact that Ganondorf clearly holds the goddesses responsible for his possession of the Triforce of Power. Regardless of what happened in OoT, there is an indication in TP that Ganondorf was not aware he possessed the Triforce of Power until the execution. This, as I said before, leaves destiny or the goddesses as the two possible causes.

It's hardly an "invisible event," we saw it happen in OoT and merely use our reasoning to say that that's what happened in TP. In lieu of an alternate explanation, since TP is yet another sequel to OoT, I'd say it's reasonable (debatable, sure, but reasonable) to use the game that is the backdrop for TP as the backdrop for TP. The quotes are hardly "random": in order to explain what we see in one game we use the explanation seen in another. We can hardly expect the developers to hand us the same explanation in every game now, can we? Obviously it was never explained that the Triforce grants wishes in the backdrop of OoT, for example, but they said more or less that and later carried over the concept in TWW.

Proof that FDL is making a Lex argument if ever there was one. The event is invisible because there is no statement or suggestion that it took place whatsoever. The quotes are random because they have no relationship to each other with regards to context. The quotes are debatable because they all possess multiple meanings and interpretations. "TP is a sequel to OoT" is not a magical "my interpretation of these quotes is correct" and "I can connect any random quotes I want" get-out-of-obvious-bullshit clause.

Edited by Raian, 30 September 2008 - 07:30 PM.

[FDL]

You've seen my debates with Lex; you should know that I don't like taking random quotes from different places to construct a theory; putting these quotes together creates the impression of credibility, but it doesn't adhere to the way that writers constuct their stories (especially Zelda writers). No writer would have said "these three random quotes establish to players that Ganondorf could have enterred the Sacred Realm in the child timeline, so we don't need to say anything in Twilight Princess".

No, they didn't think that. But that's not what I said either. I have always used the evidence as a counter to you and others claiming "There's no way Ganondorf could obtain the Triforce and still not become the Evil King." Not because I think it needs to be explained, or that it was meant to be explained by these random quotes. The quotes and examples are there to show you that there was never a real reason to believe that Ganondorf had no obstacles to overcome the second he obtained the Triforce. You guys say that he would always become the Evil King the moment he got the Triforce as if it's some fact, but it's not.

Furthermore, I like even less the fact that all the evidence you've provided has multiple meanings or interpretations. It's not as silly as Lex's "sealed away from the world" argument as a basis for connecting FSA to ALttP, but it's the same thing in principle. If any points you made could be conclusively established, then I'd be more understanding, but as it is, it looks like a Lex argument; an invisible event constructed from several random debatable quotes.

That's exactly what this divine prank stuff is. People who take it literally make the claim that the Goddesses miraculously gave Ganondorf the Triforce for no damn reason, and only because of this "divine prank" quote. That's one thing in particular that I find really exasperating about this argument. It involves either out of character Goddesses or random time paradox stuff, neither of which is supported by anything except Ganondorf being captured(which apparently is impossible if he has the Triforce) and the vague lines about chosen-ness and divine pranks.

It was by no means established that the goddesses consented to give Ganondorf the Triforce of Power, but the evidence in TP alone gives the impression that no one, not even Ganondorf, was aware that he possessed the Triforce of Power until the execution. As far as I am concerned, that is all I need to determine the two possible causes; destiny or the goddesses.

Ugh, how is that any different than what you accuse me of? My use of random quotes is typically not to formulate the theory itself, but to disprove things in the theories of others. Which is no different than when you mentioned the Legend of the Triforce to somehow "disprove" what I've said.

Ganondorf's supposed lack of knowledge of the Triforce is rather suspect. People try to use the Sage's surprised reaction to prove that they must've not known, but what about Ganondorf's distinct lack of surprise? He laughs like an evil genius having a "Just as Planned" moment. And his line about being "chosen"? Zelda and Link are said to be chosen despite the fact that they appear to have inherited their pieces. Which would of course imply that there's something else that makes them chosen, something that isn't being given the Triforce by the gods, which is what I've been saying from the get go.

All in all, the "Divine Prank" theory can be called "invisible" just as something Lex has said or whatever can be. Sorry Lex, I don't mean to give you a hard time when we're not arguing with each other, I'm just going by his example. If you want a straight up debate using only the most relevant things, that's fine. But don't accuse me of doing something I'm not simply because I'm using quotes the same way you are.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 30 September 2008 - 06:44 PM.

[Raien]

No, they didn't think that. But that's not what I said either. I have always used the evidence as a counter to you and others claiming "There's no way Ganondorf could obtain the Triforce and still not become the Evil King." Not because I think it needs to be explained, or that it was meant to be explained by these random quotes. The quotes and examples are there to show you that there was never a real reason to believe that Ganondorf had no obstacles to overcome the second he obtained the Triforce. You guys say that he would always become the Evil King the moment he got the Triforce as if it's some fact, but it's not.

We argue that Ganondorf had no obstacles to take the Triforce for the same reason we argue that Link isn't a space alien; there's no evidence to base such a theory. Theoretically, the old adage "A lack of evidence does not constitute evidence" works both ways, but when you are trying to establish an event that was never suggested in the canon, then it works only one way; against the potential existence of the event. A lack of evidence does not allow Link to be a possible space alien, and it doesn't allow possible obstacles to the Triforce. I may go as far as to call it fanfiction.

That's exactly what this divine prank stuff is. People who take it literally make the claim that the Goddesses miraculously gave Ganondorf the Triforce for no damn reason, and only because of this "divine prank" quote. That's one thing in particular that I find really exasperating about this argument. It involves either out of character Goddesses or random time paradox stuff, neither of which is supported by anything except Ganondorf being captured(which apparently is impossible if he has the Triforce) and the vague lines about chosen-ness and divine pranks.

Then forget the divine prank quote. I'm quite happy to accept it as a common metaphor because clearly the Sages were not truly aware of what took place. I'm also quite happy to accept that Ganondorf himself did not really know that he was chosen by the gods. All I'm saying is that clearly no one was aware that Ganondorf possessed the Triforce of Power before the execution; there were no indications whatsoever that Ganondorf was himself aware that he had touched the Triforce. That alone is enough to limit the possible causes for Ganondorf's possession of the Triforce of Power.

Ugh, how is that any different than what you accuse me of? My use of random quotes is typically not to formulate the theory itself, but to disprove things in the theories of others. Which is no different than when you mentioned the Legend of the Triforce to somehow "disprove" what I've said.

The two quotes I refer to (the Sages and Ganondorf) both appear in Twilight Princess and both refer to the event in which Ganondorf came to possess the Triforce of Power; these quotes are directly relevant to the subject at hand. Quotes referring to events in OoT, like Ganondorf controlling the Triforce of Power, are only relevant to Twilight Princess (or indeed, each other) if you assert that the writers deliberately intended to create this master plan from them. But when you consider that these quotes were originally intended to refer to specific events in those games, it's just not likely at all that they were meant to relate to each other.

Zelda and Link are said to be chosen despite the fact that they appear to have inherited their pieces.

In TWW, Zelda's lineage was chosen to protect the Triforce of Courage. Every descendant was thus chosen, and I guess a similar rule applies to TP. If not, fate makes Link and Zelda chosen. The "divine beast" was foretold in prophecy, after all.

Edited by Raian, 30 September 2008 - 07:07 PM.

[FDL]

We argue that Ganondorf had no obstacles to take the Triforce for the same reason we argue that Link isn't a space alien; there's no evidence to base such a theory. Theoretically, the old adage "A lack of evidence does not constitute evidence" works both ways, but when you are trying to establish an event that was never suggested in the canon, then it works only one way; against the potential existence of the event. A lack of evidence does not allow Link to be a possible space alien, and it doesn't allow possible obstacles to the Triforce. I may go as far as to call it fanfiction.

That's so different it's almost comical. You take the line about Ganondorf becoming a Maou from the strength of the Triforce in the Adult Timeline and the fact that the Sages stopped him in the Child Timeline and make the assumption that this means Ganondorf's obtaining the ToP automatically made him impervious to all threats and that there's no way he had the ToP in the Child Timeline. How are you taking the high ground of theorizing here?

Then forget the divine prank quote. I'm quite happy to accept it as a common metaphor because clearly the Sages were not truly aware of what took place. I'm also quite happy to accept that Ganondorf himself did not really know that he was chosen by the gods. All I'm saying is that clearly no one was aware that Ganondorf possessed the Triforce of Power before the execution; there were no indications whatsoever that Ganondorf was himself aware that he had touched the Triforce. That alone is enough to limit the possible causes for Ganondorf's possession of the Triforce of Power.

It's not so "clear", I'm afraid. I'm not even saying there's no way you're right and I'm wrong, but the stance you take in which I'm painted as some bumbling idiot/psychopath for disagreeing with you and for having a theory that really has no less evidence than yours is a little unfair in such a situation.

The two quotes I refer to (the Sages and Ganondorf) are both referring to the event in which Ganondorf came to possess the Triforce of Power; they are directly relevant to the subject at hand. Quotes referring to events in OoT, like Ganondorf controlling the Triforce of Power, are only relevant to Twilight Princess (or indeed, each other) if you assert that the writers deliberately intended to create this master plan from them. But with every quote intended to reference something else, that is just not likely at all.

Came to possess the power of the Triforce. Which as I've said before is different. And that's where the other, non-refutation quotes come in. I have not said there is a master plan involving every quote I've ever used. Don't oversimplify everything I've ever said just to represent me poorly. Because I haven't used quotes the way you say I have.

In TWW, Zelda's lineage was chosen to protect the Triforce of Courage. Every descendant was thus chosen, and I guess a similar rule applies to TP. If not, fate makes Link and Zelda chosen. The "divine beast" was foretold in prophecy, after all.

And yet Ganondorf has to be chosen by getting the Triforce via literal DEM?

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 30 September 2008 - 07:43 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Raian, you do realize that you have to use the context of Adult OoT as context for your argument that Ganondorf would not have been able to be detained in the Child timeline, right? Pot calling the kettle black, much?

Never! It shows Lex-logic at its best!

And the fact that you constantly have to slander me and use me as essentially a punching bag throughout this entire charade shows just how deeply inconsiderate your approach to this discussion has been.

The "divine prank" line most likely was a metaphor, but I'm also referring to the fact that Ganondorf clearly holds the goddesses responsible for his possession of the Triforce of Power.

Of course he does; presumably he believes himself to BE a god.
TP is simply accurately portraying the way divine favor was viewed in Romantic societies. If you met fortune, the gods smiled on you; if you met misfortune, the gods were angry with you.

Proof that FDL is making a Lex argument if ever there was one. The event is invisible because there is no statement or suggestion that it took place whatsoever. The quotes are random because they have no relationship to each other with regards to context.

The "event" is that the Triforce split when Ganondorf touched it. It is not invisible because we saw it in OoT; if anything, the Triforce being granted to the three chosen ones through a deus ex machina is "invisible."

The suggestion that it took place is that the Triforce is split exactly in the way it was in OoT; Ganondorf holds Power, Zelda holds Wisdom, Link holds Courage. This is also the context for the quote in OoT. thus the argument is that the circumstances of both Triforce splits are identical. The "divine prank" line is interpreted identically to the "unfortunate coincidence" line from OoT. All references to Ganondorf being "chosen" are interpreted either in this context (that it seems like a divine prank that the demon thief would get the power of the gods) or in the context of Ganondorf's own conceit.

Inevitably you refuse to acknowledge the validity of the argument because it conflicts with yours, not because it doesn't meet the criteria for a valid argument.

[Impossible]

Are we having this moronic divine prank argument again? How can anyone even think this is necessary? ...Oh yeah, right.

But still, we have the removed ending dialogue that pretty much confirms that Ganondorf received the power of the gods in order to balance light and shadow. Which is what the whole game was about, but just ignore me. Why the hell would you make up events that go against what the games themselves imply, and are based on completely out of context evidence? Why would you suggest something completely impossible, when it would suggest that characters committed illogical, nonsensical actions? That complete defiance of logical principles is on its own enough to discard this crap entirely.

[Crimson Lego]

Twilight Princess
Ok, I think the Sages from Ocarina of time re awoke in the new timeline, or new sages took their place. And Ganondorf was sealed in the Twilight Realm. I haven't played this game, so I'm not sure on the ending, but I heard it ends with the Triforce in pieces.

The Mirror of Twilight, not the Triforce, is in pieces.

[Raien]

That's so different it's almost comical. You take the line about Ganondorf becoming a Maou from the strength of the Triforce in the Adult Timeline and the fact that the Sages stopped him in the Child Timeline and make the assumption that this means Ganondorf's obtaining the ToP automatically made him impervious to all threats and that there's no way he had the ToP in the Child Timeline. How are you taking the high ground of theorizing here?

Why do we need Adult OoT to deduce Ganondorf's strength with the Triforce of Power? Wasn't killing one of the Sages, forcing them to seal him within the Twilight Realm, and then returning to take over Hyrule (all of which, Ganondorf claims, could not have been achieved without the Triforce of Power; he would have otherwise fallen like the Dark Tribe did) enough to determine that the Triforce of Power made Ganondorf impervious to the efforts of Hyrule's regular forces? The Sages are supposed to be the "protectors of Hyrule" after all; if they can't defeat Ganondorf, who can (except the chosen, obviously)?

And that's a thought; if only the chosen could defeat Ganondorf with the Triforce of Power, as fate requires, then wouldn't that immediately establish that non-chosen cannot defeat Ganondorf? Of course we're dealing with removed script material, but it is a thought.

It's not so "clear", I'm afraid. I'm not even saying there's no way you're right and I'm wrong, but the stance you take in which I'm painted as some bumbling idiot/psychopath for disagreeing with you and for having a theory that really has no less evidence than yours is a little unfair in such a situation.

I'm not painting you as an idiot, and I don't have any real problems with your interpretation of the evidence raised in this debate; I think they're perfectly valid. I simply can't see how this evidence, even with your preferred interpretation, is enough to justify Ganondorf enterring the Sacred Realm in the Child Timeline. As I said, the evidence is too stretched out in random places and with multiple interpretations. These are the three points you have raised so far:

1) Ganondorf could not control the power of the gods; evidence that Ganondorf can never use the Triforce immediately.
2) The Door of Time was open; evidence that it was possible that there was a point in which Ganondorf could have entered the Sacred Realm.
3) Ganondorf's invasion of Hyrule to obtain the Triforce is a parallel of OoT's events described in TWW.

Can you really expect me to believe that the Zelda writers would have thought this enough to simply ignore the event entirely in TP's script?

And yet Ganondorf has to be chosen by getting the Triforce via literal DEM?

Ganondorf did not inherit the Triforce of Power, but he could have received it according to fate. But of course, if fate is brought about by the goddesses, then it would amount to the same thing as being chosen by the goddesses. I'm easy regarding the understanding of destiny.

Inevitably you refuse to acknowledge the validity of the argument because it conflicts with yours, not because it doesn't meet the criteria for a valid argument.

No, I refuse to acknowledge the validity of your argument because it doesn't meet my criteria for a valid argument. Whether we are referring to FSA-ALttP or Ganondorf's ability to enter the Sacred Realm in the Child Timeline, the way you collect and present your evidence is always the same, and it is totally contradictory to what I believe is relevant to understanding how the Zelda timeline is constructed. When I thought as you did, I sometimes agreed with your theories. Now that I don't, we cannot agree.

Edited by Raian, 01 October 2008 - 08:52 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

The Sages are supposed to be the "protectors of Hyrule" after all; if they can't defeat Ganondorf, who can (except the chosen, obviously)?

Ah, but you see, where's the contradiction, here? The sages couldn't defeat Ganondorf in TP, and that's why he was banished.

Can you really expect me to believe that the Zelda writers would have thought this enough to simply ignore the event entirely in TP's script?

They didn't. They described Ganondorf's invasion of Hyrule, which inevitably resulted in his entrance into the Sacred Realm and seizure of the Triforce.

No, I refuse to acknowledge the validity of your argument because it doesn't meet my criteria for a valid argument. Whether we are referring to FSA-ALttP or Ganondorf's ability to enter the Sacred Realm in the Child Timeline, the way you collect and present your evidence is always the same, and it is totally contradictory to what I believe is relevant to understanding how the Zelda timeline is constructed. When I thought as you did, I sometimes agreed with your theories. Now that I don't, we cannot agree.

The way I collect my evidence is by looking at where the games draw their inspiration and what references to prior games can be picked up by fans. I'm using the one case in which we've seen the writers of the games talk about the way they introduce the timeline as a reference: they include "pseudo-secrets" that they throw out over the course of the game instead of spelling things out (note: they leave their stories very vague, especially recently; Miyamoto said they do not want to "restrict themselves to a timeline"). The Triforce splitting a la OoT is one such reference.

How is this contradictory at all? The developers have stated that they deal in small references; when asked how TP connects to OoT they talked about the picture of the fisherman in the fishing pond of all things.

[FDL]

Are we having this moronic divine prank argument again? How can anyone even think this is necessary? ...Oh yeah, right.

But still, we have the removed ending dialogue that pretty much confirms that Ganondorf received the power of the gods in order to balance light and shadow. Which is what the whole game was about, but just ignore me. Why the hell would you make up events that go against what the games themselves imply, and are based on completely out of context evidence? Why would you suggest something completely impossible, when it would suggest that characters committed illogical, nonsensical actions? That complete defiance of logical principles is on its own enough to discard this crap entirely.

You know, Impossible, you really need to cut out the "I'm better than everyone" crap you always have going. You and Lex may be old enemies, but I'm not Lex. You can refrain from calling me a moron just because I disagree with you, thanks. And I usually agree with you on what you say about most things, but to say this is the same as the Developer Intent found in TWW's ending is downright silly. The references to the past Link by themselves interfere with the interpretation that he did nothing but behind the scenes stuff that culminated in Ganondorf's capture before he or Link did anything. Furthermore, unlike certain arguments you and Lex may have had, I am not the only one who believes that this is/could be true.

EDIT: Also, I don't know where you're getting that any of this is out of character/nonsensical/illogical. You've pulled that literally from nowhere. In fact, the Goddesses randomly awarding some blasphemous jerk the Triforce for flimsy reasons seems absurdly illogical to me. And where in the removed ending speech does Ganondorf say that he was there to keep balance? He was around before Link and Zelda were! If anything, they were the antithesis he was talking about. In fact, the thing Raian said about Ganondorf being devout is disagreed with by his "the gods you believe in" comment. You can keep claiming it's so incredibly clear cut and that I'm a moron for doubting it, but the only reason you have is because it doesn't match your own opinion. However, I will apologize for opening old wounds by commenting on the "Divine Prank" stuff.

Why do we need Adult OoT to deduce Ganondorf's strength with the Triforce of Power? Wasn't killing one of the Sages, forcing them to seal him within the Twilight Realm, and then returning to take over Hyrule (all of which, Ganondorf claims, could not have been achieved without the Triforce of Power; he would have otherwise fallen like the Dark Tribe did) enough to determine that the Triforce of Power made Ganondorf impervious to the efforts of Hyrule's regular forces? The Sages are supposed to be the "protectors of Hyrule" after all; if they can't defeat Ganondorf, who can (except the chosen, obviously)?

Do you still forget what Fyxe, Hero of Legend, and I have always said about the scene in the Arbiters Ground? How it parallels Ganondorf's transformation in OoT to such a degree that it's probably intentional? Clearly the Triforce of Power granted him more strength when he was on the brink of death.

And that's a thought; if only the chosen could defeat Ganondorf with the Triforce of Power, as fate requires, then wouldn't that immediately establish that non-chosen cannot defeat Ganondorf? Of course we're dealing with removed script material, but it is a thought.

Ganondorf was only temporarily captured by the Sages. If I were arguing that Ganondorf was killed by the Sages and it was in fact a clone running around afterwards this argument might apply.

I'm not painting you as an idiot, and I don't have any real problems with your interpretation of the evidence raised in this debate; I think they're perfectly valid. I simply can't see how this evidence, even with your preferred interpretation, is enough to justify Ganondorf enterring the Sacred Realm in the Child Timeline. As I said, the evidence is too stretched out in random places and with multiple interpretations. These are the three points you have raised so far:

1) Ganondorf could not control the power of the gods; evidence that Ganondorf can never use the Triforce immediately.
2) The Door of Time was open; evidence that it was possible that there was a point in which Ganondorf could have entered the Sacred Realm.
3) Ganondorf's invasion of Hyrule to obtain the Triforce is a parallel of OoT's events described in TWW.

1. That was not to be used as evidence towards my theory, it was evidence that I presented to you when you asked how there was any way Ganondorf wouldn't become King if he obtained the ToP. But I'll elaborate on this in a second.
2. I'm sorry, but you guys talk about creator intent and then chide me for thinking that the DoT being open, Zelda telling Link to place the Master Sword to rest and close the DoT, and Link having a resonating Triforce mark means that maybe Zelda didn't send him back before any of the events happen?
3. No, that's not what I was saying. I was responding to your point about the fact that TP doesn't explicitly mention the SR by mentioning that TWW barely does any better.

But here's why I say you're painting an inaccurate picture of me. This is a comparison between what you say my argument is and what it actually is:

What you say it is-"Hey, this quote I found in an OoT text dump vaguely may have something to do with TP, proving this theory I thought up while drunk completely! Well, time to hit up the LA forums!"
What it really is-"Hey guys, I think that the Triforce split the old fashioned way." "No way, Ganondorf would have to be captured before he obtained it. Otherwise, no one would've been able to stop him." "Well, we don't know what Link's being there changed, nor do we know how the Sages came to be involved, but I might as well also point out that we hear/see in other games that there are indications that Triforce users may not have all it's power right away."

Now, I'm not saying this must make me correct. But please don't do the Strawman thing. It's not really fair, IMO.

Can you really expect me to believe that the Zelda writers would have thought this enough to simply ignore the event entirely in TP's script?

I think that it mentioning that he invaded Hyrule to obtain the Triforce, coupled with the fact that Ganondorf stealing the Triforce is a thing that happens all the time(with the same OoT era event alone being mentioned in, like, 4 games) means that they could have just left it out, just as they were vague about all the other past events in the game. But it's actually the reasoning that you're giving that is part of why I dislike the Divine Prank theory. Unlike things like what the Triforce is, Ganondorf's activities in OoT, and other things of that nature, either of the main theories held about the "Divine Prank" require something that truly is "invisible" to happen. Both the theory that it was some time paradoxy thing and the theory that the Goddesses just decided "fuck it" and gave Ganondorf the Triforce should be explained in more detail in the game itself, because it's new and isn't something that is already elaborated on by other games. I mean, Link entrusting the Hero's Bow to the Gorons is more explained than the "Divine Prank" for chrissakes!

Ganondorf did not inherit the Triforce of Power, but he could have received it according to fate. But of course, if fate is brought about by the goddesses, then it would amount to the same thing as being chosen by the goddesses. I'm easy regarding the understanding of destiny.

What I'm saying is that people can be chosen/fated to have something without being given it by the Goddesses themselves. Particularly in this case, where Ganondorf, Zelda and the Sages always talk about the power of the Triforce and not just the Triforce itself. Plus, we see another reason for Ganondorf to believe it's fate in what happens to the Twili. They were stopped on the order of the Gods themselves, while Ganondorf wasn't, which would make him feel like he was chosen even further. Also, as I mentioned before, there is an example of someone getting the Triforce into their body without a crest in TP itself, which I think means something. Particularly when you take into account the importance the Sages place on the crest Link has.

Edited by FDL, 01 October 2008 - 12:09 PM.

[wring]

Are we having this moronic divine prank argument again? How can anyone even think this is necessary? ...Oh yeah, right.

But still, we have the removed ending dialogue that pretty much confirms that Ganondorf received the power of the gods in order to balance light and shadow. Which is what the whole game was about, but just ignore me. Why the hell would you make up events that go against what the games themselves imply, and are based on completely out of context evidence? Why would you suggest something completely impossible, when it would suggest that characters committed illogical, nonsensical actions? That complete defiance of logical principles is on its own enough to discard this crap entirely.

That makes sense, but then that brings up the question, why didn't the Goddesses stop Link from killing Ganondorf?

[Arturo]

Because he's their chosen hero. It's destiny that only Ganondorf will be defeated once the three wielders of the Triforce...