506 replies to this topic

[Raien]

Ocarina of Time is the only time I know of where seven Sages appear in a game. Twilight Princess only has six, FSA has six Maidens of the Four Sword and then Zelda, none of which are sages. Ocarina of Time MUST be the IW. And Maidens are not Sages, I doubt Maidens is even anything special, its like saying "the four sword girl" or "the blue girl" or "the girl whose a descendant of the Sage" in fancy midevil talk.

Why must the IW be depicted in a Zelda game? You've never argued that The Minish Cap's backstory or Four Swords' backstory must be depicted in a Zelda game, so why the IW?

Also, it is stated that the Sages combined their powers with the Knights of Hyrule in the IW, yet the Knights of Hyrule never appeared in Ocarina of Time.

[Arturo]

The Seal War (a k a Imprisoning War) doesn't have to be any game. Most games have backstories not connected to any game of the series, so that seems to be the rule. Plus, OoT NEVER speaks of Seven Sages, always of the Six Sages, and their leader, the seventh sage. But the expression "Seven Sages" appears only in ALttP.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Plus, OoT NEVER speaks of Seven Sages, always of the Six Sages, and their leader, the seventh sage. But the expression "Seven Sages" appears only in ALttP.

I don't see how this is really relevant at all. In ALttP, the leader is also clearly Zelda. ALttP speaks of the "seven sages" who sealed the Sacred Realm because that's a legendary event that has relevance to the events of ALttP; OoT only speaks of six because the legends in that game only involve the six ancient sages.

But the player is supposed to know NOTHING about Hyrule at that point.

The player knows that Ganon returned from the Hero of Time seal already, judging from the TWW intro. There is some confusion as to what happened after, and this is the first clue: the people prayed to the gods to deliver them from Ganon (as we hear in the intro), and they did (as the gods sealed Ganon). Now Ganon has escaped again.

[Arturo]

Your view is valid, and intuitively easier than mine (in fact, whenever I read the quotes, I get the same impression as you do). But I think my view is more consistent with context.

[Showsni]

Ocarina of Time is the only time I know of where seven Sages appear in a game. Twilight Princess only has six, FSA has six Maidens of the Four Sword and then Zelda, none of which are sages. Ocarina of Time MUST be the IW. And Maidens are not Sages, I doubt Maidens is even anything special, its like saying "the four sword girl" or "the blue girl" or "the girl whose a descendant of the Sage" in fancy midevil talk.

There are 8 or 9 sages in AoL. But, anyway, the IW is not depicted by a game, just like the backstories of nearly every other game in the series.

And what are the rest of you talking about? This quote?

I do not know why the seal of the gods has
failed, but now that Ganon has
returned, the world is once again being
threatened by his evil magic.

That's got to be talking about the flood-seal, as it says Ganon has now returned.

[MikePetersSucks]

Ocarina of Time is the only time I know of where seven Sages appear in a game. Twilight Princess only has six, FSA has six Maidens of the Four Sword and then Zelda, none of which are sages. Ocarina of Time MUST be the IW. And Maidens are not Sages, I doubt Maidens is even anything special, its like saying "the four sword girl" or "the blue girl" or "the girl whose a descendant of the Sage" in fancy midevil talk.

Never mind that the Seventh Sage has always been Zelda. Nevermind the Maidens have the same powers and wisdom of their Sage ancestors.

There are 8 or 9 sages in AoL.

WHAR?

[Lexxi Aileron]

There are 8 or 9 sages in AoL.

WHAR?

I presume the sages that give you the spells.

[Showsni]

Plus maybe Impa.

[wring]

Ocarina of Time is the only time I know of where seven Sages appear in a game. Twilight Princess only has six, FSA has six Maidens of the Four Sword and then Zelda, none of which are sages. Ocarina of Time MUST be the IW. And Maidens are not Sages, I doubt Maidens is even anything special, its like saying "the four sword girl" or "the blue girl" or "the girl whose a descendant of the Sage" in fancy midevil talk.

Why must the IW be depicted in a Zelda game? You've never argued that The Minish Cap's backstory or Four Swords' backstory must be depicted in a Zelda game, so why the IW?

Also, it is stated that the Sages combined their powers with the Knights of Hyrule in the IW, yet the Knights of Hyrule never appeared in Ocarina of Time.

Link is the descendant of the Knights of Hyrule in Ocarina Of Time, and he is following Zelda's orders, which is as close to Knight of Hyrule you can get, and he combines his power with the Sages.


You could say the Dark World suddenly appeared twice, started pouring out evil twice, was sealed twice by two different sets of seven sages, and Ganondorf made two wishes, which were the exact same. You could say that, but that'd be stupid. How much more obviouse can you get, the creators even said its the IW, and it fits everything. There are minor differences, but they are so minor most people wouldn't notice them. Besides, its just a legend, passed down for generations, things are going to change.

[Raien]

Link is the descendant of the Knights of Hyrule in Ocarina Of Time, and he is following Zelda's orders, which is as close to Knight of Hyrule you can get, and he combines his power with the Sages.

Cop-out. The hero is the hero and the Knights of Hyrule are the Knights of Hyrule. If the Sages combined their powers with the Hero of Time, then they would not somehow magically combine their powers with a lot of people who had nothing to do with Ganon's sealing.

[Showsni]

You could say the Dark World suddenly appeared twice, started pouring out evil twice, was sealed twice by two different sets of seven sages, and Ganondorf made two wishes, which were the exact same. You could say that, but that'd be stupid. How much more obviouse can you get, the creators even said its the IW, and it fits everything. There are minor differences, but they are so minor most people wouldn't notice them. Besides, its just a legend, passed down for generations, things are going to change.

Minor differences?

Story One: A group of thieves stumble across the entrance to the SR, and once there see the triforce. Infighting breaks out, and the leader slays his followers, grasps the entire triforce, and wishes to rule the world. The SR changes into a Dark World to accommodate his wish, and his forces spread from the Dark World and begin encroaching on Hyrule Castle. The King calls the sages together, and they work desperately on a solution, whilst the knights heroically hold the enemy at the gates, suffering heavy losses. Eventually the sages complete a seal on the SR, changing the nature of the worlds so that one can only travel one way between Hyrule and the SR. The knights rally and defeat the forces now cut off from their leader, leaving Ganon trapped int eh SR with the triforce.

Story Two: The king of a desert tribe has carried out much research, and determines to take the triforce for himself. He discovers it has been safeguarded in the SR, and the only known entrance locked with three magic stones, an ocarina, and a song. He gets pally with the king of Hyrule, angling for the ocarina, whilst threatening the races that hold the stones. He soon realises that a young boy is attempting to gather the stones he needs, and sits back to watch developments. Stepping in to speed up the proceedings by threatening the ocarina's holder, he causes the boy to open the SR. Slipping in behind him he grasps the triforce, which splits, leaving him the ToP. Using the triforce of power, he marshals his armies and over the next seven years conquers Hyrule castle. When it seems he has defeated nearly all opposition, though, a boy appears and begins attacking his minions. The boy awakens six sages, but Ganon manages to capture the princess who has evaded him for seven years, and the boy gives chase. Ganon realises they have the other two pieces of the triforce, but is defeated by the boy. The sages then open a door to the SR, throw Ganon through, and seal it behind him. Though he retains the ToP, Link and Zelda keep their triforce pieces.

Minor similarities, maybe.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Raian, the sages and knights combined their powers to fight Ganon. (that's what the manual says)
Both of them participated in the struggle against Ganon; both need not participate in the sealing itself.


Well, considering OoT was written as the IW:

ALttP- A group of thieves manage by chance to get into the Sacred Realm; their leader, Ganondorf, slays them and takes the prize for himself
OoT- Ganondorf, he leader of a group of thieves manages by chance to get into the Sacred Realm and takes the Triforce for himself

The slaying of the other thieves is not depicted, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

ALttP- Ganondorf touches the Triforce and wishes to rule the world; the Sacred Realm transforms into a world of evil to reflect his wish
OoT- Ganondorf touches the Triforce and wishes to rule the world; the Sacred Realm transforms into a world of evil to reflect his wish

Identical scenarios.

ALttP- Darkness flows from the Sacred Realm into Hyrule.
OoT- Darkness flows from the Sacred Realm into Hyrule.

Identical scenarios.

ALttP- The King calls seven sages to seal the source of the evil
OoT- An awakening voice from the Sacred Realm calls the sages to seal the source of the evil

The latter doesn't designate a king; the former doesn't designate the means of the summons. Both scenarios are nearly identical, however.

ALttP- An evil army attacks the castle, and the Knights of Hyrule are all but exterminated in its defence
OoT- An evil army attacks the castle, and the Knights of Hyrule are all but exterminated in its defence

The latter assumes the annihilation of the Knights; however, it is a given that the defenders of the castle would have risen to defend it and been crushed by Ganon and it is also true that no soldiers appear in the Adult timeline.

ALttP- The sages manage to seal away the evil
OoT- A hero emerges and awakens the sages, and together they manage to seal away the evil

A hero is added to the OoT story, but the final outcome is the same; the sages are subtracted from the hero myth, I see no reason why the hero should not be subtracted from the sages' myth.

Details such as the sages' seal taking seven years to be cast, the races of the sages, and the capture of Zelda may not appear in the ALttP story, but the ALttP story is also notably so brief that it does not include strong descriptions of the span of time over which these events take place, of the sages themselves, or of the precise timing and circumstances under which the seal was completed. It only mentions the threat, the goals, the fate of the Knights and the sages, and the outcome. OoT fills in the details.

The Triforce being divided isn't referenced in the original story either, but was obviously a later edition and obviously always contradicted ALttP. The developers knew this when they wrote the story, but wrote it after the IW anyway. Clearly they didn't care to resolve the Triforce problem, although they debatably did so in TWW, and AoL already existed to solve it (and was professed as being between OoT and ALttP by Miyamoto).

Any "problems" between OoT and ALttP could be resolved by putting LoZ/AoL in between, although fans have been content to disregard Miyamoto's statements and invent their own solutions.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 15 September 2008 - 08:48 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I presume the sages that give you the spells.

Who says they're Sages? Wizards and Sages are not the same thing; a Sage in the context we're discussing is someone who has an open ear to the Goddesses and carries out their will directly, and by the time of AOL, the blood of the Hylians who could hear the Goddesses has thinned, possibly to nothing.

Link is the descendant of the Knights of Hyrule in Ocarina Of Time

Who says?

[Raien]

Raian, the sages and knights combined their powers to fight Ganon. (that's what the manual says)
Both of them participated in the struggle against Ganon; both need not participate in the sealing itself.

The Maidens were talking about increasing their magical power by using the energy Link was exerting to fight Ganon's monsters, so in that context, the Sages would have to be using the Knights' actions to help increase their own magical power. There was only one event in which the Sages combined their magic and the Knights were fighting Ganon's monsters; the creation of the seal according to the IW.

Edited by Raian, 16 September 2008 - 05:59 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The Maidens were talking about increasing their magical power by using the energy Link was exerting to fight Ganon's monsters,

I'm sorry, not saying you're wrong, but when was this said?

[Raien]

I'm sorry, not saying you're wrong, but when was this said?

I was thinking of this quote, but now I look at it, it doesn't say what I thought it did:

It is said that the Hylians could manipulate mysterious powers. The Seven Sages were also like that. But, over the long years, the Hylian blood has faded, and even we descendants of the Seven Sages do not have strong powers. If we just have the power of the Knights who keep charge of courage, the power of the Sages who keep charge of wisdom should also grow larger!

But never mind, I found something else that makes the point anyway:

When the Seven Sages sealed the passage to the Dark World, the ones who protected them from the attack of the demons was the the Knight Family.

Edited by Raian, 16 September 2008 - 08:43 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

by the time of AOL, the blood of the Hylians who could hear the Goddesses has thinned, possibly to nothing.

Only if you put AoL after ALttP.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, that and no one in LOZ/AOL seems to remember that the Triforce used to have a whole third part, and no one has any powers beyond common sorcery, and everyone looks human, complete with rounded ears, and the country is torn into two different nations and has been such for apparently quite a while, most of the landmarks LTTP introduced are replaced with wasteland...I could go on.

[Showsni]

A sage is simply a wise old person. Or a herb.

[Raien]

A sage is simply a wise old person. Or a herb.

I REMEMBER THAT SHOW! God bless British children's television.

[MikePetersSucks]

A sage is simply a wise old person. Or a herb.

Not in the Zeldaverse.

[wring]

I'm playing four Sword Adventure, and it really sounds like its leading up to Ocarina of Time. Ganondorf is young, sounds like he's new in the Gerudo Tribe, not hundreds of years old. Nobody's ever heard of Ganon before, so it sounds like he can't change into the pig form yet, and Ocarina of Time references Ganon a ton. The Dark World is starting to sound like a different world. AND to top it all off, the Knights of Hyrule are alive and well. All of this really strongly suggests its before Ocarina of Time. But the problem is that I still can't find a placement for the classic games, in the timeline. But I'm starting to completely rethink my Timeline. Here's what I think so far. "()" show possible placement of a game.

TMC-FS/FSA-OoT
Adult Timeline-WW/PH
Child Timeline/MM-(TP)-(ALttP/LA)-(OoA/OoS)-LoZ/AoL-(OoA/OoS)-(TP)-(AlttP/LA)-(OoA/OoS)

Oh and just a crazy idea I had. In Adventures of Link, Ganon's followers are trying to ressurect him. What if they succeeded before the end of the game. The Six Sages find out and decided to kill off the revived Ganon. While they are doing that, Link collected all three pieces of the Triforce, and wished Zelda out of her sleep. So the pieces of the Triforce seek out people to grant their power to. Link gets courage, Zelda gets Wisdom, and by some divine prank Ganondorf gets Power, and so Ganondorf can't be killed, and so he gets sealed in the Twilight Realm, leading up to TP. It would make perfect sense if only Ganon actually got revived.

[Raien]

Wring, play to the end of the game before you theorise where FSA comes in the timeline. There's a large plot twist about Ganondorf that you clearly aren't aware of.

[MikePetersSucks]

Oh and just a crazy idea I had. In Adventures of Link, Ganon's followers are trying to ressurect him. What if they succeeded before the end of the game. The Six Sages find out and decided to kill off the revived Ganon. While they are doing that, Link collected all three pieces of the Triforce, and wished Zelda out of her sleep. So the pieces of the Triforce seek out people to grant their power to. Link gets courage, Zelda gets Wisdom, and by some divine prank Ganondorf gets Power, and so Ganondorf can't be killed, and so he gets sealed in the Twilight Realm, leading up to TP. It would make perfect sense if only Ganon actually got revived.

Yea, except there are no Sages in AOL, the Triforce of Courage is sealed, and....none of that shit ever, ever happened. Not to mention Hylian blood is still strong in TP, LOZ/AOL Ganon isn't Gerudo anymore, there'd be like two Zeldas, and for Ganon to be resurrected, Link would have to die, dooming Hyrule forever.

You really need to research and finish playing the games.

[wring]

I'm working towards the end of FSA, I just have to rescue Zelda, and then I'm done. I heard he turns into Ganon permanently at the end of the game. I'm waiting until I beat the game before I change my signature.

Yeah, and I did get to the part where it talks about the Trident containing the spirit of some ultimate evil. Which is where the whole Ganon is different from Ganondorf thing comes from.

But I think keeping them on seperate timelines is the best way to explain it.

[MikePetersSucks]

Fair enough, Wring. Though I still can't see why you can't put LTTP and onward after TP. They plug in fine, save for a few relatively minor discrepancies, which might be solved by TP's planned sequel.

[FDL]

So.....people are still using the phrase "divine prank" as if it proves anything, huh? Sigh....

[Raien]

So.....people are still using the phrase "divine prank" as if it proves anything, huh? Sigh....

It might not prove anything, but it could certainly indicate something. I don't believe Ganondorf could have taken the Triforce of Power without the Hyrulians knowing, nor do I believe that Ganondorf would have knowingly held it without being able to use it. I don't believe that such a situation could have been brought about by the timeline split either, because I consider it too complicated for a Zelda game (especially when the timeline split is simply ignored in TP).

Instead, both Ganondorf and the Sages refer to the divine in his acquisition of the Triforce of Power, which at the very least indicates that neither of them were aware of the Triforce of Power until it activated. As far as I am concerned, the goddesses are responsible for "choosing" Ganondorf as a holder of power, just as they chose Link to be the "divine beast".

Edited by Raian, 27 September 2008 - 03:38 PM.

[wring]

Fair enough, Wring. Though I still can't see why you can't put LTTP and onward after TP. They plug in fine, save for a few relatively minor discrepancies, which might be solved by TP's planned sequel.

If I did, Ganondorf would have to be revived and then sealed in the Dark World. And on the Adult Timeline, the Dark World isn't supposed to exsist, and the imprisoning war isn't supposed to have happened. At the end of Ocarina of Time, Link stopped himself from opening the door to the Sacred Realm, stopping all the events of the Imprisoning War, which occured because the door to the Sacred Realm suddenly opened. I don't even think the Seven Sages awakened, and if Zelda never became a Sage, her descendant, Zelda, couldn't be a descendant of a Sage. In TP there are only six Sages, too.

You could solve allot of these problems by placing it after Phantom Hourglass, but then you have to have some way for Hyrule to be unflooded, and Ganondorf would have to be revived, somehow. AND you need an explanation as to why nobody remembers or talks about the flood that just happened. AND you need to explain why Hyrule has stayed mostly the same through the games, even though it was flooded. Sure LoZ, and AoL Hyrule is different, but its not THAT different considering the graphics of the NES ( well, I haven't played AoL yet but LoZ is still recognisable as Hyrule, there's a desert, a Mountain, a Lake and a big River.)

So since it can't happen on either the Adult or Child Timeline, it has to be placed by itself. Atleast, that's my thinking. Maybe they'll fix all these plotholes in the next game, and if they do, I'll just change my timeline around. I think that's normal for a Zelda fan anyways.

[Showsni]

Maybe Zelda touched the triforce and it split. After all, in the normal OoT Zelda and Link's goal was to get the triforce before Ganon. As it happened, Zelda was chased away from Hyrule Castle before they could do that. But if Ganon was captured by the sages, then she and Link could have completed their plan; Link grabs the Master Sword and opens the door, Zelda walks in and touches the triforce, and it splits. The ToP flies straight to Ganon, just in time for his escape.