506 replies to this topic

[FDL]

So.....people are still using the phrase "divine prank" as if it proves anything, huh? Sigh....

It might not prove anything, but it could certainly indicate something. I don't believe Ganondorf could have taken the Triforce of Power without the Hyrulians knowing, nor do I believe that Ganondorf would have knowingly held it without being able to use it. I don't believe that such a situation could have been brought about by the timeline split either, because I consider it too complicated for a Zelda game (especially when the timeline split is simply ignored in TP).

But here's the thing, the Sage's surprise is just as, if not more likely a reaction to the fact that Ganondorf just came back from the dead. Furthermore, we know that people do not immediately gain control of the power of the gods the second they obtain the Triforce. So his obtaining it would not automatically lead to a copy of the Adult Timeline. This would also make more sense with the fact that Link has his equipment and the Triforce of Courage(which is resonating) at the very end of OoT.

This would also work better with some of the other things in OoT's ending, such as the Door of Time being open, Link going to meet with Zelda(why bother with it when we know Zelda would never succeed without Link's involvement anyway?), as well as the fact that we know from MM/TP that Link was known throughout Hyrule as a hero.

The fact is, the most important aspect of OoT's child ending is the ToC resonating on Link's hand. I don't like the idea of brushing that under the rug because of an ambiguous line about the gods.

Instead, both Ganondorf and the Sages refer to the divine in his acquisition of the Triforce of Power, which at the very least indicates that neither of them were aware of the Triforce of Power until it activated. As far as I am concerned, the goddesses are responsible for "choosing" Ganondorf as a holder of power, just as they chose Link to be the "divine beast".

I'd say the fact that Ganondorf has a piece dwelling within him in the first place can be considered a "divine prank". Anyone who has a piece dwelling within them, save perhaps Midna, is chosen by the gods. Including OoT/TWW Ganondorf.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 27 September 2008 - 07:19 PM.

[Raien]

But here's the thing, the Sage's surprise is just as, if not more likely a reaction to the fact that Ganondorf just came back from the dead.

Which is why I agreed with you that it doesn't prove anything. It's only through the surrounding context that we choose to interpret the statement differently.

Furthermore, we know that people do not immediately gain control of the power of the gods the second they obtain the Triforce.

We do? In what circumstances have people actually known they had the Triforce (or a piece of it) but were not able to use it? I am aware of a Triforce piece working without the holder's knowledge, but not this.

This would also make more sense with the fact that Link has his equipment and the Triforce of Courage(which is resonating) at the very end of OoT.

To be honest, I have no problems believing that Ganondorf could have the Triforce of Power at the point the timeline split. All I'm arguing is that he wasn't aware he possessed it, just like TP Link wasn't aware of his Triforce of Courage.

This would also work better with some of the other things in OoT's ending, such as the Door of Time being open, Link going to meet with Zelda(why bother with it when we know Zelda would never succeed without Link's involvement anyway?), as well as the fact that we know from MM/TP that Link was known throughout Hyrule as a hero.

Zelda returned Link to the past in order for him to live a peaceful childhood; it was thus established that Hyrule would be at peace in the Child Timeline as well. So regardless of the point in time that Link returned to, and regardless of what he discussed with Zelda, Ganondorf should have been prevented from enterring the Sacred Realm in the Child Timeline. And when you consider that the Door of Time was opened moments before the Sacred Realm was opened, that's a perfectly suitable gap of time for Link to return to.

I'd say the fact that Ganondorf has a piece dwelling within him in the first place can be considered a "divine prank". Anyone who has a piece dwelling within them, save perhaps Midna, is chosen by the gods. Including OoT/TWW Ganondorf.

For me, it's the change in Ganondorf's character between TP and TWW that makes me believe he was not initially aware that he had acquired the Triforce of Power in the Child Timeline. Ganondorf in TWW referred to the goddesses as "your gods", stating that his own desires were in conflict with theirs. Ganondorf in TP referred to himself as a man chosen by the goddesses to rule Hyrule; he sounded like a religious devout. And what better way to assume divine providence than to receive divine power? That is why I interpret the "divine prank" as literal.

[FDL]

Which is why I agreed with you that it doesn't prove anything. It's only through the surrounding context that we choose to interpret the statement differently.

Oh, alright.

We do? In what circumstances have people actually known they had the Triforce (or a piece of it) but were not able to use it? I am aware of a Triforce piece working without the holder's knowledge, but not this.

In The Wind Waker Link and Tetra obtain their pieces over the course of the game and are not given any new powers to wield from what we see. Furthermore, we know Zelda was taught by the Sages as a child. If she immediately had access to the power the Triforce of Wisdom provides, I'm not sure she'd need any training. There's also the "Ganondorf could not control the power of the gods" line that I'm trying to ask for clarification of.

To be honest, I have no problems believing that Ganondorf could have the Triforce of Power at the point the timeline split. All I'm arguing is that he wasn't aware he possessed it, just like TP Link wasn't aware of his Triforce of Courage.

You mean in TP, right?

Zelda returned Link to the past in order for him to live a peaceful childhood; it was thus established that Hyrule would be at peace in the Child Timeline as well. So regardless of the point in time that Link returned to, and regardless of what he discussed with Zelda, Ganondorf should have been prevented from enterring the Sacred Realm in the Child Timeline. And when you consider that the Door of Time was opened moments before the Sacred Realm was opened, that's a perfectly suitable gap of time for Link to return to.

Yes, I can see why that could be the case. But in that scenario where does the Triforce of Courage come from?

For me, it's the change in Ganondorf's character between TP and TWW that makes me believe he was not initially aware that he had acquired the Triforce of Power in the Child Timeline. Ganondorf in TWW referred to the goddesses as "your gods", stating that his own desires were in conflict with theirs. Ganondorf in TP referred to himself as a man chosen by the goddesses to rule Hyrule; he sounded like a religious devout. And what better way to assume divine providence than to receive divine power? That is why I interpret the "divine prank" as literal.

I believe we've discussed this before, but I disagree. The fact that he defiles and beheads the statue of the goddesses in the throne room seems to imply his "chosen by the gods" line was tongue-in-cheek. As for his belief in "divine providence", that could just as easily come from the fact that the Triforce of Power dwells within him. The Wind Waker shows us that even a person who sought and obtained the Triforce on their own can be considered "special" on the basis of their having a piece come to reside within them. Ganondorf would no doubt feel like the Triforce was meant for him when it appeared on the back of his hand, and we can see from what he says before his duel with Link from OoT that he believes he's the rightful owner of the Triforce even in that timeline. Not only that, but his line in TWW about the kids not being "worthy" of the Triforce. In his warped mind, he's the one who deserves the Triforce, and all of the power it provides, over anyone else.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 27 September 2008 - 10:40 PM.

[Raien]

In The Wind Waker Link and Tetra obtain their pieces over the course of the game and are not given any new powers to wield from what we see.

It didn't appear that Link was using the Triforce of Courage in OoT, yet Ganondorf believed that it was responsible for Link's ability to rescue the Sages.

Furthermore, we know Zelda was taught by the Sages as a child. If she immediately had access to the power the Triforce of Wisdom provides, I'm not sure she'd need any training.

Lolwut? I was never under the impression that the Sages were teaching Zelda about the Triforce of Power. I presumed Zelda's curriculum involved the usual subjects; history, english, home economics, etc.

There's also the "Ganondorf could not control the power of the gods" line that I'm trying to ask for clarification of.

Assuming that line is a literal reference to the Triforce of Power, as you believe, it would suggest that the Triforce of Power cannot be used because of Ganondorf's weak heart, not because of a general rule that Triforce pieces cannot be used shortly after acquisition.

Then again, I can't believe that Ganondorf's enormous dark power, which could banish minions to dimensional voids and watch people around the world from one location, did not come from the Triforce of Power, so I think this example is clearly making a different point anyway.

You mean in TP, right?

Yes. My belief is that the timeline split prevented a destined battle from occuring, and so the goddesses made that battle possible in the Child Timeline.

Yes, I can see why that could be the case. But in that scenario where does the Triforce of Courage come from?

I believe it came from the goddesses. As someone who considers the Zelda mythology driven by symbolism, I believe there is meaning to be found in their actions, rather than the argument that the Triforce simply split because the timeline split.

I believe we've discussed this before, but I disagree. The fact that he defiles and beheads the statue of the goddesses in the throne room seems to imply his "chosen by the gods" line was tongue-in-cheek. As for his belief in "divine providence", that could just as easily come from the fact that the Triforce of Power dwells within him. The Wind Waker shows us that even a person who sought and obtained the Triforce on their own can be considered "special" on the basis of their having a piece come to reside within them. Ganondorf would no doubt feel like the Triforce was meant for him when it appeared on the back of his hand, and we can see from what he says before his duel with Link from OoT that he believes he's the rightful owner of the Triforce even in that timeline.

TWW Ganondorf never referred to himself as chosen to wield power because although he possessed the Triforce of Power, he had taken it himself. Being chosen requires someone higher up to actually perform the act of choosing, and that did not happen in the Adult Timeline. So it can't be argued that Ganondorf ever believed himself to be chosen in TWW, because the choosing never happened.

Not only that, but his line in TWW about the kids not being "worthy" of the Triforce. In his warped mind, he's the one who deserves the Triforce, and all of the power it provides, over anyone else.

Ganondorf's judgment of worthiness =/= divine choosing. By trying to expand the definition of "chosen" to something that has nothing to do with it whatsoever, you're bringing in things that are completely irrelevant to the point.

Edited by Raian, 28 September 2008 - 07:15 AM.

[FDL]

It didn't appear that Link was using the Triforce of Courage in OoT, yet Ganondorf believed that it was responsible for Link's ability to rescue the Sages.

And yet everyone else acted like it was Link being the hero he was meant to be. I'm not sure how much importance I'd place on Ganondorf's attempts at bad mouthing Link.

Lolwut? I was never under the impression that the Sages were teaching Zelda about the Triforce of Power. I presumed Zelda's curriculum involved the usual subjects; history, english, home economics, etc.

Not the Triforce of Power, magic in general. The Sages are magical beings. I doubt they'd pry themselves away from watching over the Arbiter's Grounds, which they were tasked by the Gods to watch over, just to teach Zelda math or whatever. But what my point is is that if Zelda gained extremely powerful magic the moment she inherited the Triforce of Wisdom, the Sages wouldn't really need to teach her in the ways of magic, Triforce-based or otherwise.

Assuming that line is a literal reference to the Triforce of Power, as you believe, it would suggest that the Triforce of Power cannot be used because of Ganondorf's weak heart, not because of a general rule that Triforce pieces cannot be used shortly after acquisition.

Then again, I can't believe that Ganondorf's enormous dark power, which could banish minions to dimensional voids and watch people around the world from one location, did not come from the Triforce of Power, so I think this example is clearly making a different point anyway.

We've discussed this before, I believe. One can have varying levels of "control" over something. If he had some control over the Triforce of Power, the fact that he still didn't have full mastery of it seven years after obtaining it would suggest to me that he would have even less control over it's power right after he first obtained it.

I believe it came from the goddesses. As someone who considers the Zelda mythology driven by symbolism, I believe there is meaning to be found in their actions, rather than the argument that the Triforce simply split because the timeline split.

I'm curious as to why you believe this to be the case when this hasn't happened any other time as far as we can tell.

TWW Ganondorf never referred to himself as chosen to wield power because although he possessed the Triforce of Power, he had taken it himself. Being chosen requires someone higher up to actually perform the act of choosing, and that did not happen in the Adult Timeline. So it can't be argued that Ganondorf ever believed himself to be chosen in TWW, because the choosing never happened.

I was talking about what happened with Link. He hunted down and found the Triforce of Courage, but was considered to be "chosen" when he showed it to the Gods and then found the ToC began dwelling within him. Ergo, even if Ganondorf obtained the ToP on his own merit, he would still be a "chosen one" because the Triforce came to reside within him. I'd say that's also why the JP version clarifies that Ganondorf was chosen to wield/have power and was not simply chosen to have the Triforce. There is a difference between having the Triforce as an item and having it dwell within a person, allowing them to potentially wield it's power.

Ganondorf's judgment of worthiness =/= divine choosing. By trying to expand the definition of "chosen" to something that has nothing to do with it whatsoever, you're bringing in things that are completely irrelevant to the point.

It's not irrelevant, actually. You claim that Ganondorf is devout because he says that he was "chosen by the goddesses" to wield the ToP, and as such is worthy of ruling Hyrule. Despite this fact, he believes the two people who have the other crests are somehow "unworthy". But you also appear to have ignored the fact that Ganondorf defiled the statue of the Goddesses in the throne room, which seems to imply he's not as devout as you claim.

[Raien]

And yet everyone else acted like it was Link being the hero he was meant to be. I'm not sure how much importance I'd place on Ganondorf's attempts at bad mouthing Link.

Not the Triforce of Power, magic in general. The Sages are magical beings. I doubt they'd pry themselves away from watching over the Arbiter's Grounds, which they were tasked by the Gods to watch over, just to teach Zelda math or whatever. But what my point is is that if Zelda gained extremely powerful magic the moment she inherited the Triforce of Wisdom, the Sages wouldn't really need to teach her in the ways of magic, Triforce-based or otherwise.

On both these points, I think we're assuming too much. There's a distinction between the ability to use a Triforce piece and the want to use it, but these two things are never brought into conflict. We never see a character try to wield their Triforce piece and fail, and thus there is no evidence that anyone is unable to use the Triforce at the point they receive it.

We've discussed this before, I believe. One can have varying levels of "control" over something. If he had some control over the Triforce of Power, the fact that he still didn't have full mastery of it seven years after obtaining it would suggest to me that he would have even less control over it's power right after he first obtained it.

Even so, it would still depend on Ganondorf's heart, not on an obligatory rule that the Triforce cannot be used immediately after receiving it.

I'm curious as to why you believe this to be the case when this hasn't happened any other time as far as we can tell.

The timeline has never split at any other time as far as we can tell, so to point out that the circumstances are unique is by no means a disproof. And I believe the goddesses gave Ganondorf the Triforce of Power because:

a) All references to his acquisition of the Triforce of Power refer to the goddesses.
b) There are no references to Ganondorf enterring the Sacred Realm in the Child Timeline (and I don't believe Twilight Princess even refers to the Sacred Realm at all). You are expecting me to believe in an invisible event based upon possible circumstances surrounding OoT Link's return to the past, as well as a possible interpretation of Aonuma's Nintendo Dream interview, but we forget that Nintendo wouldn't expect new players to take either of these things into consideration with a new release ten years after OoT. Although Zelda games have always been ambiguous with their back stories, Nintendo have never created any full-blown plot holes that could cause harm to a new player's enjoyment. I don't believe that Ganondorf took the Triforce of Power in the Child Timeline, because Nintendo did not introduce the possibility to Twilight Princess.

I was talking about what happened with Link. He hunted down and found the Triforce of Courage, but was considered to be "chosen" when he showed it to the Gods and then found the ToC began dwelling within him.

Link collected the pieces of the Triforce of Courage, but it was the gods who made the decision to mark his hand. That was their choice, and the act that made Link chosen. Unless you can show the mark on Ganondorf's hand was also god-given, I don't believe there is a comparison to be made.

It's not irrelevant, actually. You claim that Ganondorf is devout because he says that he was "chosen by the goddesses" to wield the ToP, and as such is worthy of ruling Hyrule. Despite this fact, he believes the two people who have the other crests are somehow "unworthy". But you also appear to have ignored the fact that Ganondorf defiled the statue of the Goddesses in the throne room, which seems to imply he's not as devout as you claim.

Ganondorf never suggested that Link or Zelda were unworthy, but he called Link and Midna fools for contesting his clear conquest of Hyrule. As for the defiling of the statue, then fair enough, it shows that Ganondorf felt contempt for the goddesses. But Ganondorf still possessed the unwavering belief that his power was granted by the goddesses for the purposes he chose, and that is important for defining his character.

Edited by Raian, 28 September 2008 - 02:32 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

a) All references to his acquisition of the Triforce of Power refer to the goddesses.
b) There are no references to Ganondorf enterring the Sacred Realm in the Child Timeline

"The Triforce would remain in the Sacred Realm until one worthy of inheriting those powers appeared."

This is part of the legend of the Triforce as seen in ALttP. Both Ganondorf and the sages appear to believe him to be the one the goddesses chose to wield the Triforce of Power, most probably because of this legend. That doesn't mean it's correct; the goddesses are clearly opposed to Ganondorf wielding the Triforce of Power-- the legend probably doesn't refer to him at all. His possession of the Triforce of Power appears both to himself and to the sages like a divine prank; the same was true in OoT, although the reference to fate was toned down considerably.

[FDL]

On both these points, I think we're assuming too much. There's a distinction between the ability to use a Triforce piece and the want to use it, but these two things are never brought into conflict. We never see a character try to wield their Triforce piece and fail, and thus there is no evidence that anyone is unable to use the Triforce at the point they receive it.

I don't think it's as black and white as that, to be honest. I'd say the fact that Ganondorf didn't turn into his Ganon form until he was near death does imply he did not have access to all of it's power.

Even so, it would still depend on Ganondorf's heart, not on an obligatory rule that the Triforce cannot be used immediately after receiving it.

Well Ganondorf is the one we're discussing after all.

The timeline has never split at any other time as far as we can tell, so to point out that the circumstances are unique is by no means a disproof. And I believe the goddesses gave Ganondorf the Triforce of Power because:

a) All references to his acquisition of the Triforce of Power refer to the goddesses.
b) There are no references to Ganondorf enterring the Sacred Realm in the Child Timeline (and I don't believe Twilight Princess even refers to the Sacred Realm at all). You are expecting me to believe in an invisible event based upon possible circumstances surrounding OoT Link's return to the past, as well as a possible interpretation of Aonuma's Nintendo Dream interview, but we forget that Nintendo wouldn't expect new players to take either of these things into consideration with a new release ten years after OoT. Although Zelda games have always been ambiguous with their back stories, Nintendo have never created any full-blown plot holes that could cause harm to a new player's enjoyment. I don't believe that Ganondorf took the Triforce of Power in the Child Timeline, because Nintendo did not introduce the possibility to Twilight Princess.

a) All the references are more accurately referring to the power he wields. As I mentioned, there is a difference between holding the Triforce as an item and having it dwell within you, allowing one to use it's power. One who has a Triforce dwelling within them is chosen.
b) The fact that they call it a sequel means there are no restrictions on what is and isn't taken into consideration, I'd say. Even TWW, LA, PH, and ALttP were released long after their prequels were, and were designed in such a way that they could be enjoyed by new players or old ones.

Link collected the pieces of the Triforce of Courage, but it was the gods who made the decision to mark his hand. That was their choice, and the act that made Link chosen. Unless you can show the mark on Ganondorf's hand was also god-given, I don't believe there is a comparison to be made.

What's the difference between what happened to Link and what happened to Ganondorf? In both cases, they found the Triforce themselves. Link even had the ToC as a physical item until he was chosen to have it dwell within him. If that designates Link as a chosen one, it would designate Ganondorf as one as well.

Ganondorf never suggested that Link or Zelda were unworthy,

He said in TWW that they were unworthy according to what Jumbie says.

but he called Link and Midna fools for contesting his clear conquest of Hyrule. As for the defiling of the statue, then fair enough, it shows that Ganondorf felt contempt for the goddesses. But Ganondorf still possessed the unwavering belief that his power was granted by the goddesses for the purposes he chose, and that is important for defining his character.

Not really, it's a load of crap no matter what he says about it. He forced another Triforce bearer to abdicate the throne to him, so clearly he doesn't care about whether or not a person is "chosen by the gods". The true defining aspect seems to be his belief that the power he wields gives him free reign over everyone and everything. And this belief does not just contain the power of the Triforce, but also the magic he wields on his own. This magic is even further "god given", because he was born with the potential to use that dark magic even without the Triforce's influence.

EDIT:

お前達　一族に欠けていたもの・・・それは、力
The thing your clan lacked… that is power.

神に選ばれし強者のみが持つ絶対なる力
That absolute power which only a strong person chosen by the gods wields.

その力を支配する者こそがこの世を統べる王にふさわしい
For sure, he who commands that power makes a suitable king to rule this world.

See what I mean? It is strength in general that he believes makes him the rightful king, not just the Triforce.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 28 September 2008 - 03:24 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

On both these points, I think we're assuming too much. There's a distinction between the ability to use a Triforce piece and the want to use it, but these two things are never brought into conflict. We never see a character try to wield their Triforce piece and fail, and thus there is no evidence that anyone is unable to use the Triforce at the point they receive it.

Isn't there? It's true no one has ever outright failed to use the Triforce, but to use it properly/safely? That danger first appeared in AoL. And OoT? "Ganondorf… Pitiful man… He lacked a strong, righteous heart and therefore was unable to control the power of the gods…"

Consider the context here: Zelda isn't saying Ganondorf was bad at controlling the Triforce of Power in genral. She's talking about what happened right now, when he went all "AAAAAAH!"-glowing and (seemingly) died. That was him loosing control of his power (of course he comes back right after so maybe she was just wrong, but that's besides the point).

Also, no one's ever actually used a Triforce piece to do anything except turn into something else (a demon-pig, a wolf, and a cross-dresser, specifically). They appear to work more as innate power-augumentation thingies, which makes sense with what Ganondorf says about the ToC in OoT (and why Link never gets any powers).

Link collected the pieces of the Triforce of Courage, but it was the gods who made the decision to mark his hand. That was their choice, and the act that made Link chosen. Unless you can show the mark on Ganondorf's hand was also god-given, I don't believe there is a comparison to be made.

Considering the way both Ganondorf and Zelda show off their marks and say it is proof that they were chosen by the gods (not to mention "That is the fate of those who bear the crests that were awarded by the gods you believe in.") I think it's pretty obvious Link and Ganondorf are the same. Even TWW Ganondorf suggests it's the same - 'the fate that binds us', and all.

See what I mean? It is strength in general that he believes makes him the rightful king, not just the Triforce.

"That absolute power which only a strong person chosen by the gods wields."

It's pretty obvious he's talking about the Triforce there.

[FDL]

I was talking about the part where he says "a strong person". I know when he mentions the chosen by the gods part he's talking about having the Triforce dwell within him.

EDIT: Or rather, that and the whole thing about Ganondorf being known as a magic wielder even before he obtained the Triforce. He is also "special" because he's naturally stronger than almost everyone else, when the Goddesses were supposed to grant everyone "equal" power.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 28 September 2008 - 04:31 PM.

[Arturo]

Also, no one's ever actually used a Triforce piece to do anything except turn into something else (a demon-pig, a wolf, and a cross-dresser, specifically). They appear to work more as innate power-augumentation thingies, which makes sense with what Ganondorf says about the ToC in OoT (and why Link never gets any powers).

Uh, no, false. Completely wrong there.

For example (Rauru):

He obtained the Triforce from
the Temple of Light, and with its
power, he became the King of Evil...

He also used the Triforce of Power against Link to create those "waves of darkness" in OoT, and most likely all the magic he exhibits throughout the last half of the game comes from the Triforce of Power. He also frees himself of the chains of the Six Sages at TP using the Triforce's power. So no.

Completely wrong there.

[Hero of Legend]

I was talking about the part where he says "a strong person". I know when he mentions the chosen by the gods part he's talking about having the Triforce dwell within him.

Isn't he simply talking about a 'strong person' that is prepared/able to make use of the power that he has? In that sentence, he's saying he's different from the Twili because he is chosen to wield power, but also that he's different from Link and Zelda in that he plans to use that power to rule the world. Or so I see it, anyway.

Or rather, that and the whole thing about Ganondorf being known as a magic wielder even before he obtained the Triforce. He is also "special" because he's naturally stronger than almost everyone else, when the Goddesses were supposed to grant everyone "equal" power.

Yeah, well they gave the Hylians special powers too... Although it might be that "those who dwell in the light" simply were the Hylians. The usurpers were outsiders who came to Hyrule, if I recall... Of course, Ganondorf was different from them anyway, so maybe it doesn't matter.

Uh, no, false. Completely wrong there.

Let me put it this way: Has Ganondorf (or anyone) ever actively used the ToP (as in, it is visible on his hand) to do anything of importance? Yeah, I admit I forgot that stunt with the waves of darkness, but even that is arguable. It was just a display of power anyway.

Other than that, I see nothing in your post that contradicts what I just said. Yes, the ToP changed Ganondorf into the Maou and allowed him to rule Hyrule, but he was already a powerful sorcerer, and it only completed the transformation (in other words, the ToP doesn't specifically have the power to turn you into a demon, it just brings out your true nature - the light force is much the same). Also look at the way he fights: Those spheres he throws at Link are just like the one he used when Link was a kid, only more powerful, and so on. Same with TP.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 28 September 2008 - 05:53 PM.

[FDL]

Isn't he simply talking about a 'strong person' that is prepared/able to make use of the power that he has? In that sentence, he's saying he's different from the Twili because he is chosen to wield power, but also that he's different from Link and Zelda in that he plans to use that power to rule the world. Or so I see it, anyway.

That's possible. But that doesn't really change the other points I'm making. The fact that he taunts the Twili ancestors for being "cast aside" seems to suggest to me that part of the difference is that he succeeded in stealing the Triforce where they failed. If both were stopped from entering the SR, I don't see why he'd taunt them for being cast aside.

Yeah, well they gave the Hylians special powers too... Although it might be that "those who dwell in the light" simply were the Hylians. The usurpers were outsiders who came to Hyrule, if I recall... Of course, Ganondorf was different from them anyway, so maybe it doesn't matter.

Nah, the "interloper" line was added in apparently.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 28 September 2008 - 05:11 PM.

[Raien]

I don't think it's as black and white as that, to be honest. I'd say the fact that Ganondorf didn't turn into his Ganon form until he was near death does imply he did not have access to all of it's power.

Or, like Wolf Link, it was an act of protection disconnected from Ganondorf's abilities to wield the Triforce of Power. Or perhaps it was nothing to do with his near-death, and it was a manifestation of the rage that Ganondorf was feeling after his defeat at Link's hands. As I said, there's too many possible interpretations to state that one of them is true.

Well Ganondorf is the one we're discussing after all.

Make up your mind:

Furthermore, we know that people do not immediately gain control of the power of the gods the second they obtain the Triforce.

From the above statement, you were clearly making the argument that all people are immediately prevented from using the Triforce's power. If you are now arguing that it applies to just Ganondorf because he could not control its power, then that's an entirely different argument altogether.

Assuming you are now referring to just Ganondorf, have you ever considered that the term might refer to the concept of "being controlled by power"? It appeared a couple of times in Twilight Princess with reference to the Dark Tribe:

Because the king feared that desire lying hidden in your pupils, due to which the clan of ancient times got controlled by power!

It sounds to me like Ganondorf was not incapable of wielding the Triforce of Power, but he was mentally forced into a world-view that possessing power was the only thing that mattered, and it must be acquired at all costs (hence his search for the other Triforce pieces).

a) All the references are more accurately referring to the power he wields. As I mentioned, there is a difference between holding the Triforce as an item and having it dwell within you, allowing one to use it's power. One who has a Triforce dwelling within them is chosen.

No, being chosen requires someone to choose. If possessing the Triforce means being chosen, then we might as well argue that taking up gardening means being chosen, because it's obvious that we're ignoring the whole meaning of the word to suit personal theories.

b) The fact that they call it a sequel means there are no restrictions on what is and isn't taken into consideration, I'd say. Even TWW, LA, PH, and ALttP were released long after their prequels were, and were designed in such a way that they could be enjoyed by new players or old ones.

In all the sequels you mentioned, the relevant information was provided in the game itself. TWW, for example, made sure that new players were aware of things like the Hero of Time and the Sacred Realm. Twilight Princess does that, but it doesn't refer to Ganondorf enterring the Sacred Realm or touching the Triforce, which leads me to believe that it never happened. And we can't argue that the information was ignored because it was no longer relevant, like the seven Sages were ignored in TWW, because Ganondorf wielding the Triforce of Power instigated everything in Twilight Princess.

What's the difference between what happened to Link and what happened to Ganondorf? In both cases, they found the Triforce themselves. Link even had the ToC as a physical item until he was chosen to have it dwell within him. If that designates Link as a chosen one, it would designate Ganondorf as one as well.

Ganondorf did not seek the blessing of the gods to wield the Triforce of Power; he simply took it from the Sacred Realm. Link sought the blessing of the gods to wield the Triforce of Courage, and it was they who bestowed its power upon him. While you may look at the result being the same, it is the act of choosing, as I have said a million times now, that is necessary for anyone to be chosen.

EDIT:

お前達　一族に欠けていたもの・・・それは、力
The thing your clan lacked… that is power.

神に選ばれし強者のみが持つ絶対なる力
That absolute power which only a strong person chosen by the gods wields.

その力を支配する者こそがこの世を統べる王にふさわしい
For sure, he who commands that power makes a suitable king to rule this world.

See what I mean? It is strength in general that he believes makes him the rightful king, not just the Triforce.

No, he says "that power", meaning "the absolute power which I just referred to in my last sentence".

Edited by Raian, 28 September 2008 - 05:25 PM.

[FDL]

Or, like Wolf Link, it was an act of protection disconnected from Ganondorf's abilities to wield the Triforce of Power. Or perhaps it was nothing to do with his near-death, and it was a manifestation of the rage that Ganondorf was feeling after his defeat at Link's hands. As I said, there's too many possible interpretations to state that one of them is true.

Well, I'd say the fact that he did not use it when he was using "the last of his power" to try and kill Zelda and Link implies that it wasn't just a rage thing. The "act of protection" stuff is actually a part of what I'm saying. He could initially only transform when near death but as we see in later games such as TP itself he eventually found a way to use that skill at will.

Make up your mind:

Furthermore, we know that people do not immediately gain control of the power of the gods the second they obtain the Triforce.

From the above statement, you were clearly making the argument that all people are immediately prevented from using the Triforce's power. If you are now arguing that it applies to just Ganondorf because he could not control its power, then that's an entirely different argument altogether.

No, it's that I was using TWW's lack of giving Zelda/Link any new powers as an example of why none of them can control it initially. But if you reject that notion by saying it requires a strong heart, the main point still holds true. Ganondorf did not have immediate mastery of the Triforce. However, I'm not sure which is true. The "righteous heart" stuff may have been flowery language. Who does and doesn't have a "strong, righteous heart"?

Assuming you are now referring to just Ganondorf, have you ever considered that the term might refer to the concept of "being controlled by power"? It appeared a couple of times in Twilight Princess with reference to the Dark Tribe:

Because the king feared that desire lying hidden in your pupils, due to which the clan of ancient times got controlled by power!

It sounds to me like Ganondorf was not incapable of wielding the Triforce of Power, but he was mentally forced into a world-view that possessing power was the only thing that mattered, and it must be acquired at all costs (hence his search for the other Triforce pieces).

No offense, but I'm not sure where that could be found in that line. She says he could not control the power of the gods, not that he was being "controlled" by the power of the gods.

No, being chosen requires someone to choose. If possessing the Triforce means being chosen, then we might as well argue that taking up gardening means being chosen, because it's obvious that we're ignoring the whole meaning of the word to suit personal theories.

I don't think you understand what I mean. Ganondorf is not chosen because he has the Triforce in general, he's chosen because it dwells within him. We see that there is such a distinction in TWW.

In all the sequels you mentioned, the relevant information was provided in the game itself. TWW, for example, made sure that new players were aware of things like the Hero of Time and the Sacred Realm. Twilight Princess does that, but it doesn't refer to Ganondorf enterring the Sacred Realm or touching the Triforce, which leads me to believe that it never happened. And we can't argue that the information was ignored because it was no longer relevant, like the seven Sages were ignored in TWW, because Ganondorf wielding the Triforce of Power instigated everything in Twilight Princess.

TWW's references to the SR are extremely vague. All it says he obtained the power of the gods and was the "emperor of the dark realm". It doesn't really add to that does it? The references to the Triforce and how Ganondorf obtained aren't much less vague in TWW than TP, IIRC.

Ganondorf did not seek the blessing of the gods to wield the Triforce of Power; he simply took it from the Sacred Realm. Link sought the blessing of the gods to wield the Triforce of Courage, and it was they who bestowed its power upon him. While you may look at the result being the same, it is the act of choosing, as I have said a million times now, that is necessary for anyone to be chosen.

What? They both obtained the Triforce, and both had it dwelling within them. The fact that it dwells within someone signifies they are chosen. You keep saying there is a difference when I see none. As HoL said, even Ganondorf understands that he's in the same boat as Zelda and Link. The Triforce crest is referred to as being the proof that someone is chosen by the gods. A distinction is never made that it does not hold true to those who found it themselves.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 28 September 2008 - 06:51 PM.

[Raien]

Well, I'd say the fact that he did not use it when he was using "the last of his power" to try and kill Zelda and Link implies that it wasn't just a rage thing. The "act of protection" stuff is actually a part of what I'm saying. He could initially only transform when near death but as we see in later games such as TP itself he eventually found a way to use that skill at will.

I'm sorry, but you can't convince me that there is a right answer to this. I can debate your point about the rage (who says it must have manifested immediately?) and throw in several more possibilities that are coming through my head right now, but it's not worth it because I've said all that needs to be said.

No offense, but I'm not sure where that could be found in that line. She says he could not control the power of the gods, not that he was being "controlled" by the power of the gods.

The word "control" has more than one meaning. To control something can mean to use it, but it can also mean to keep it from acting of its own accord. The idea of being controlled by power is essentially a description of the corruptive effect that desiring and possessing power can cause. When you desire power, you want more and more and more, no matter what the cost to yourself and others. The corrupted man simply has no control over his actions, and thus he has no control over his power.

TWW's references to the SR are extremely vague. All it says he obtained the power of the gods and was the "emperor of the dark realm". It doesn't really add to that does it? The references to the Triforce and how Ganondorf obtained aren't much less vague in TWW than TP, IIRC.

There is not a single hint that Ganondorf enterred the Sacred Realm in the Child Timeline. For an event apparently so integral to TP's storyline, that is why I don't believe it really took place.

What? They both obtained the Triforce, and both had it dwelling within them. The fact that it dwells within someone signifies they are chosen. You keep saying there is a difference when I see none. This can also be seen in the way the ToW is said to have been "entrusted" to Tetra's ancestors even though it supposedly went to Zelda automatically when the Triforce split. As HoL said, even Ganondorf understands that he's in the same boat as Zelda and Link.

Let's say that there is a group of soldiers. One soldier is chosen by the CO to go on a mission and he gets in the truck, but another man then jumps onto the truck in order to take the mission as well. The result is that both soldiers get in the truck and take the mission, but only one of them can be called "chosen". All it took was the CO to say "I choose you for this mission", and that is what set apart the first soldier from the second soldier. All the other similarities don't make the second soldier "chosen".

-The legend of the Triforce in OoT stated that the Triforces of Courage and Wisdom would dwell within people who were chosen by the goddesses to receive them, thus Link and Zelda in OoT were chosen by the goddesses to protect the Triforces of Courage and Wisdom.
-In TWW, the King of Hyrule told Zelda that her lineage was chosen by the goddesses to protect the Triforce of Wisdom from Ganondorf, and thus as their descendant, Zelda was already chosen to be that protector.
-In TWW, Link showed the Triforce of Courage to the goddesses as proof of his courage, and they granted the Triforce of Courage to Link as acknowledgment of his worthiness. The goddesses had chosen Link to wield the power of the Triforce of Courage at that point in time.

The legend of the Triforce in OoT stated that if an unbalanced heart touches the Triforce, it will separate and leave the holder with the piece he most believes in. The goddesses are not stated to have any choice in this part of the legend; if the Triforce of Power dwells within Ganondorf, it does so without the goddesses' consent. And if Ganondorf was never singled out to receive power, then he was not chosen. Capiche?

Edited by Raian, 28 September 2008 - 07:49 PM.

[FDL]

I'm sorry, but you can't convince me that there is a right answer to this. I can debate your point about the rage (who says it must have manifested immediately?) and throw in several more possibilities that are coming through my head right now, but it's not worth it because I've said all that needs to be said.

Fair enough.

The word "control" has more than one meaning. To control something can mean to use it, but it can also mean to keep it from acting of its own accord. The idea of being controlled by power is essentially a description of the corruptive effect that desiring and possessing power can cause. When you desire power, you want more and more and more, no matter what the cost to yourself and others. The corrupted man simply has no control over his actions, and thus he has no control over his power.

I still don't think she meant it like that. She would have referenced him being controlled by that power if that's what she was referring to. You accuse me of trying to change things to fit my own theory, but this seems to be something in that vein. Why would they be incapable of simply saying "Ganondorf was ruled by his power" only in this instance?

There is not a single hint that Ganondorf enterred the Sacred Realm in the Child Timeline. For an event apparently so integral to TP's storyline, that is why I don't believe it really took place.

"Emperor of the dark realm" appears to be the only thing that references the SR in TWW. The rest of the time it references Ganondorf's obtaining of the Triforce no differently than it does the quest the Twili or Ganondorf were on in the Child Timeline. Hell, it even refers to Hyrule as being the resting place of the Triforce, using the exact same wording TP does.

Let's say that there is a group of soldiers. One soldier is chosen by the CO to go on a mission and he gets in the truck, but another man then jumps onto the truck in order to take the mission as well. The result is that both soldiers get in the truck and take the mission, but only one of them can be called "chosen". All it took was the CO to say "I choose you for this mission", and that is what set apart the first soldier from the second soldier. All the other similarities don't make the second soldier "chosen".

-The legend of the Triforce in OoT stated that the Triforces of Courage and Wisdom would dwell within people who were chosen by the goddesses to receive them, thus Link and Zelda in OoT were chosen by the goddesses to protect the Triforces of Courage and Wisdom.
-In TWW, the King of Hyrule told Zelda that her lineage was chosen by the goddesses to protect the Triforce of Wisdom from Ganondorf, and thus as their descendant, Zelda was already chosen to be that protector.
-In TWW, Link showed the Triforce of Courage to the goddesses as proof of his courage, and they granted the Triforce of Courage to Link as acknowledgment of his worthiness. The goddesses had chosen Link to wield the power of the Triforce of Courage at that point in time.

The legend of the Triforce in OoT stated that if an unbalanced heart touches the Triforce, it will separate and leave the holder with the piece he most believes in. The goddesses are not stated to have any choice in this part of the legend; if the Triforce of Power dwells within Ganondorf, it does so without the goddesses' consent. And if Ganondorf was never singled out to receive power, then he was not chosen. Capiche?

Here's what you're missing from what I'm saying: when Link sought out the Triforce of Courage it did not reside within him until he was chosen. With this in mind, even if Ganondorf were to gain the Triforce itself through his own means we can say that he would not have it dwelling within him unless he was chosen. Yes, OoT mentions it would stay with him. It says nothing about it staying within him and dwelling within him/the crest appearing on his hand. That has always been reserved for chosen ones. If Ganondorf wasn't a chosen one, he would held on to the ToP. But he would have done so in the same way Link held onto it in TWW until he was "chosen".

But if we're just going to rehash this over and over, we might as well stop arguing.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 28 September 2008 - 08:14 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

It might not prove anything, but it could certainly indicate something. I don't believe Ganondorf could have taken the Triforce of Power without the Hyrulians knowing, nor do I believe that Ganondorf would have knowingly held it without being able to use it. I don't believe that such a situation could have been brought about by the timeline split either, because I consider it too complicated for a Zelda game (especially when the timeline split is simply ignored in TP).

Fallacy. If Ganondorf didn't know what happened to the other two pieces in OOT, why would the Hyrulians know he had a piece in TP's backstory? And we know that Ganondorf's restrained use of his power when he didn't need it before. There's no problem here with him just waltzing in and taking it.

Instead, both Ganondorf and the Sages refer to the divine in his acquisition of the Triforce of Power, which at the very least indicates that neither of them were aware of the Triforce of Power until it activated. As far as I am concerned, the goddesses are responsible for "choosing" Ganondorf as a holder of power, just as they chose Link to be the "divine beast".

Yea, and both of them are painted in the light of being mistaken. Even still it could be referring to his "fate" of having the Triforce of Power, even if he actually took it manually, it was his destiny.

If I did, Ganondorf would have to be revived and then sealed in the Dark World. And on the Adult Timeline, the Dark World isn't supposed to exsist, and the imprisoning war isn't supposed to have happened. At the end of Ocarina of Time, Link stopped himself from opening the door to the Sacred Realm, stopping all the events of the Imprisoning War, which occured because the door to the Sacred Realm suddenly opened. I don't even think the Seven Sages awakened, and if Zelda never became a Sage, her descendant, Zelda, couldn't be a descendant of a Sage. In TP there are only six Sages, too.

You're making it out to be a bigger problem than it is. Zelda is pretty much always considered a Sage, even if she never acts the role; and your ancestors don't have to be Sages for YOU to be one. Anyway, LTTP's backstory paints this as this particular Ganondorf's descent to darkness. Theoretically, after Ganondorf died in TP, and the Triforce was moved to the Sacred Realm, centuries could pass, Ganondorf is reincarnated, and he seizes the Triforce. His wish turns the realm into the Dark World, and Seven Sages need to be Awakened to summon him. Problem solved.

So since it can't happen on either the Adult or Child Timeline, it has to be placed by itself. Atleast, that's my thinking. Maybe they'll fix all these plotholes in the next game, and if they do, I'll just change my timeline around. I think that's normal for a Zelda fan anyways.

I just explained that's not true. Ganondorf can reincarnate just like anyone else in Hyrule.

[Raien]

I still don't think she meant it like that. She would have referenced him being controlled by that power if that's what she was referring to. You accuse me of trying to change things to fit my own theory, but this seems to be something in that vein. Why would they be incapable of simply saying "Ganondorf was ruled by his power" only in this instance?

Zelda says that Ganondorf cannot control the power of the gods, and my interpretation is that Ganondorf cannot control himself with the Triforce of Power, which means that his power is thus controlling him (his power has corrupted him). I know you're skeptical of my argument because your initial reading of "control" was as "to use", but to be quite honest, my initial reading of "control" was as "to keep from acting", even before playing Twilight Princess. Ganondorf always came across as a man who lacked control over his own actions, and thus Zelda said that he could not control his power. In my opinion, the beast form, Ganon, is a representation of that lack of control.

If you disagree, then fine, I can't force you to agree with me. But surely the fact that this quote has been debated for so long proves that its' meaning was never clear-cut; there must have been some subconscious recognition that "control" had several meanings in this context.

"Emperor of the dark realm" appears to be the only thing that references the SR in TWW. The rest of the time it references Ganondorf's obtaining of the Triforce no differently than it does the quest the Twili or Ganondorf were on in the Child Timeline. Hell, it even refers to Hyrule as being the resting place of the Triforce, using the exact same wording TP does.

My argument in this case depends upon Hyrule being referred to as the "holy land" in TP. There is no way to win this argument, so I recommend moving on.

Here's what you're missing from what I'm saying: when Link sought out the Triforce of Courage it did not reside within him until he was chosen. With this in mind, even if Ganondorf were to gain the Triforce itself through his own means we can say that he would not have it dwelling within him unless he was chosen. Yes, OoT mentions it would stay with him. It says nothing about it staying within him and dwelling within him/the crest appearing on his hand. That has always been reserved for chosen ones. If Ganondorf wasn't a chosen one, he would held on to the ToP. But he would have done so in the same way Link held onto it in TWW until he was "chosen".

Using the soldier example in my previous post, you are effectively arguing that because the second soldier got on the truck and took the mission, then he must have been chosen to go on that mission, like the first soldier was. That's wrong, because the eventual result had nothing to do with whether the second soldier was chosen.

The first soldier represents Link and Zelda; the legend of the Triforce stated that they would be chosen to receive power by the goddesses.
The second soldier represents Ganondorf; the legend of the Triforce stated that he would receive the power he most believed in after touching the Triforce.

There is no evidence that Ganondorf was chosen because he bore a crest on his hand; the power of that Triforce piece was promised to him by the legend of the Triforce. If you don't believe that, then I have nothing more to say. There is no evidence that Ganondorf was ever chosen by the goddesses to wield power.

Fallacy. If Ganondorf didn't know what happened to the other two pieces in OOT, why would the Hyrulians know he had a piece in TP's backstory? And we know that Ganondorf's restrained use of his power when he didn't need it before. There's no problem here with him just waltzing in and taking it.

So are you expecting me to believe that, either during or after his capture in the Child Timeline, Ganondorf never vocalised the fact that he had touched the Triforce? If I was a power-mad future-King of Evil of mythology, I would ask out loud why my wish wasn't granted.

Yea, and both of them are painted in the light of being mistaken. Even still it could be referring to his "fate" of having the Triforce of Power, even if he actually took it manually, it was his destiny.

From what I have seen, destiny is attributed to the goddesses.

Edited by Raian, 29 September 2008 - 07:19 AM.

[FDL]

Zelda says that Ganondorf cannot control the power of the gods, and my interpretation is that Ganondorf cannot control himself with the Triforce of Power, which means that his power is thus controlling him (his power has corrupted him). I know you're skeptical of my argument because your initial reading of "control" was as "to use", but to be quite honest, my initial reading of "control" was as "to keep from acting", even before playing Twilight Princess. Ganondorf always came across as a man who lacked control over his own actions, and thus Zelda said that he could not control his power. In my opinion, the beast form, Ganon, is a representation of that lack of control.

But wouldn't his control over that form in later games, including TP, indicate that maybe that isn't the case? Particularly because "absolute power corrupts absolutely" seems to be one of the main themes of Twilight Princess more than it was of OoT.

If you disagree, then fine, I can't force you to agree with me. But surely the fact that this quote has been debated for so long proves that its' meaning was never clear-cut; there must have been some subconscious recognition that "control" had several meanings in this context.

See, I remember in the past that it was debated whether or not she was referring to the True Force or the Triforce of Power. I don't remember ever debating the meaning of control, instead I remember debating the meaning of "power of the gods". Which I'll admit could be referring to the True Force.

My argument in this case depends upon Hyrule being referred to as the "holy land" in TP. There is no way to win this argument, so I recommend moving on.

I'm not sure how that changes things too much. TWW may refer to the SR a couple times but it still puts the focus on Hyrule for the most part. Even the opening states Ganondorf "coveted and then took" the power of the gods, and IIRC makes little to no mention of the SR itself.

Using the soldier example in my previous post, you are effectively arguing that because the second soldier got on the truck and took the mission, then he must have been chosen to go on that mission, like the first soldier was. That's wrong, because the eventual result had nothing to do with whether the second soldier was chosen.

The first soldier represents Link and Zelda; the legend of the Triforce stated that they would be chosen to receive power by the goddesses.
The second soldier represents Ganondorf; the legend of the Triforce stated that he would receive the power he most believed in after touching the Triforce.

That's actually not what I'm saying. I'm saying that TWW Link is an example of what happens when you are and aren't chosen. Before it resides within him, he's not chosen. But after it begins to dwell within him, he is chosen. You are trying to act like there is a distinction, but there isn't one. I'm not talking about OoT Link, I'm talking about the one from TWW.

There is no evidence that Ganondorf was chosen because he bore a crest on his hand; the power of that Triforce piece was promised to him by the legend of the Triforce. If you don't believe that, then I have nothing more to say. There is no evidence that Ganondorf was ever chosen by the goddesses to wield power.

The Legend of the Triforce states only this: that the Triforce that represents the virtue that the person most believes in will "remain" with that person. You may have been able to argue that this meant it will remain and reside within the person before, even though there was no mention of it's power even then, but we have seen from TWW Link's situation that this is not the case. Even if you find the Triforce on your own, it will not dwell within you until you're chosen.

If you'll notice, the two times Ganondorf is said to be "chosen" it is not simply "chosen to have the Triforce". It is always mentioned that he was chosen to have/wield power. When one has the Triforce dwelling within them, they seem to have access to power that they would not have if they had the Triforce in item form. And that leads back to my main point, which is that the Triforce "dwelling within" a person, allowing them to wield it's power, is what makes them chosen.

As for the "crest" thing, it is referred to as being an indication of someone's chosen status. People who aren't chosen and obtain the Triforce either a) Don't have the Triforce within them at all, as in TWW Link's case or b) Don't have a "crest" on their hand, even if it does dwell within them, as we can see from Midna's situation.

Ganondorf's belief that he's "chosen" is not necessarily because he was given the Triforce by the gods. The belief in his chosen status could just as easily come from the fact that he was not only allowed to take the Triforce when others such as the Twili were stopped by the gods themselves, but he also had it come to dwell within him and bestow upon him the power that saved him from the Sages.

I'll let MPS handle the rest of your post.

But I have noticed you seem to be against debating this any further. If that's the case, I'm fine with stopping this.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 29 September 2008 - 11:19 AM.

[Raien]

I just think that for every piece of evidence you've provided in this debate, there is more than one valid interpretation to be made. The evidence isn't substantial enough to discredit your theory, nor is it enough to discredit mine. Still, there is one point I would like to clear up:

That's actually not what I'm saying. I'm saying that TWW Link is an example of what happens when you are and aren't chosen. Before it resides within him, he's not chosen. But after it begins to dwell within him, he is chosen. You are trying to act like there is a distinction, but there isn't one. I'm not talking about OoT Link, I'm talking about the one from TWW.

What you are arguing is that only the goddesses can cause a Triforce to dwell within the holder, thus anyone who possesses the crest must have been chosen by the goddesses; that is what I don't agree with. I believe that when Ganondorf touched the Triforce, he was granted all the power due to him according to the legend. I believe that Ganondorf acquired the crest without the involvement of the goddesses, thus he was not chosen.

[MikePetersSucks]

So are you expecting me to believe that, either during or after his capture in the Child Timeline, Ganondorf never vocalised the fact that he had touched the Triforce? If I was a power-mad future-King of Evil of mythology, I would ask out loud why my wish wasn't granted.

He didn't in OOT.

From what I have seen, destiny is attributed to the goddesses.

So? It doesn't mean they approve of Ganondorf having a Triforce piece or that he's rightfully entitled or that it was a divine prank.

[Raien]

So? It doesn't mean they approve of Ganondorf having a Triforce piece or that he's rightfully entitled or that it was a divine prank.

So you believe that the legend of the Triforce is responsible for the Triforce-splitting in the Child Timeline? That works, I guess.

[FDL]

What you are arguing is that only the goddesses can cause a Triforce to dwell within the holder, thus anyone who possesses the crest must have been chosen by the goddesses; that is what I don't agree with. I believe that when Ganondorf touched the Triforce, he was granted all the power due to him according to the legend. I believe that Ganondorf acquired the crest without the involvement of the goddesses, thus he was not chosen.

Where does it say the crest and the power of the Triforce would be given to a person who obtained it? All it says is it would remain with them, giving them an opportunity to reunite it with the other Triforces. You'd think TWW Link would have automatically had it dwelling within him if it worked like that.

[Arturo]

The difference is that TWW Link has never touched the whole Triforce o.O

And claiming that after one has touched the Triforce one needs to be "a chosen one" to have it dwell within him is like twisting completely the meanings of the legend Sheik tells. Because if you read the legend from OoT's context, it becomes clear that they are chosen ones because they got the Triforce parts even though they have not touched it. Understanding any other connotations from the legend is just bending logic, something some people like to do a lot here...

Or do you honestly believe the difference between having it and having it dwelling within you existed back in 1998?

Edited by Arturo, 29 September 2008 - 03:42 PM.

[FDL]

I'm not sure, but I'm also not sure how relevant that is to a discussion like this. By that logic couldn't it just as easily be said that no "divine prank", and by extension no scenario in which "Ganondorf gets the Triforce from the gods for no reason", was thought up in 1998 so there's no way it happened the way you guys describe? However, the Triforce Legend in ALttP does mention something about people needing to be worthy/suitable of inheriting those powers(though I'm unsure of whether or not it only refers to the whole thing or each crest) when referring to the crests, so there is a possibility that something like that was thought of even then.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 29 September 2008 - 03:50 PM.

[Raien]

What Arturo said. The context of the legend of the Triforce made it perfectly clear that the Triforce piece left with Ganondorf was his to use as he wished.

[FDL]

I'm not sure how so.

[Hero of Legend]

Well, to put it simply: Whatever the case might be today, Ganondorf simply is not said to be chosen in OoT. It could be argued it’s still implied because the chosen ones would “carry the crests on the back of their hands” which Ganondorf does, but on the other hand Ganondorf, who touched the Triforce, was distinctly differentiated from those “chosen by the gods to hold the other two pieces.”

That said, it is a simple fact that Ganondorf is chosen in TP, and that he has a Triforce crest to prove it.

Now we all have to decide if the crests in TP are fundamentally different from those in the other Zelda games (Raian thinks so, I believe), or if Nintendo is just taking some liberties with the mythos of previous titles, and they're essentially the same. If you choose the former, TP is an isolated special-case of divine intervention, and if you choose the latter, it changes the meaning of the crests entirely (from 'general Triforce-wielder' to 'chosen Triforce-wielder').

Personally, I think TWW moved in the same direction as TP with the whole 'fated battle between good and evil' being mentioned in both games, so IMO it would be rather unfair if Ganondorf didn't get his ‘chosen’ piece. This idea is supported, in a way, by Twilight Princess making a difference between Ganondorf (the prime evil) and the Twili (just a bunch of sorcerers) and granting him the ToP (no matter if it was given to him or if he was merely allowed to take it), along with Link and Zelda.

Yes, it appears ducking it out for the fate of the world is what life’s all about if the gods have any say in the matter.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 29 September 2008 - 04:51 PM.

[Raien]

Hero of Legend, I believe that the crests are the same, but how they are received is different. If possessing the crests indicates being chosen, then that must mean Ganondorf in OoT could only have possessed the Triforce of Power with the goddesses' consent. But there is no evidence in OoT or TWW that Ganondorf ever got that consent, so I don't believe that the crest must have anything to do with being chosen by the goddesses.

OoT Link and Zelda were stated to be chosen by the legend of the Triforce.
TWW Zelda was stated to be chosen by the King of Hyrule.
TWW Link was shown to be chosen when the goddesses bestowed the Triforce of Courage upon his hand.
In TP, Zelda states that both she and Link were chosen by the goddesses.
TP Ganondorf believes himself to be chosen, and asserts that all who possess Triforce pieces were chosen.

OoT/TWW Ganondorf is the only character who has never been suggested to have been chosen, and the legend of the Triforce appears to absolve the goddesses of their consent. Without any evidence that the goddesses had to choose Ganondorf, there is no evidence that Ganondorf was chosen.

Edited by Raian, 29 September 2008 - 05:49 PM.