506 replies to this topic

[Raien]

I thought we were talking about what OoT's ending implies? Going only by that game, the implication is that Ganondorf had probably obtained the ToP(considering the Legend of the Triforce). Of course, you could make a case for destiny/gods(which is why this is a stalemate in some ways), but with only OoT's ending in mind I'm not sure you could say it's implied.

Going by OoT alone, I would have said the obvious implication is that Link brought the Triforce of Courage with him into Hyrule's past. There were no implications that Link had lost his original Triforce of Courage and received a new Triforce of Courage during OoT's ending; I would have called the argument fanfiction had TWW not told us the Triforce of Courage split into fragments when Link returned to the past. Since it is only TWW that proves Link to have a new Triforce of Courage, I don't see any implications that either Ganondorf or the goddesses must have been responsible for it.

Of course, it is also possible that the crest on Link's hand was an error, like we have seen the TWW characters possess their crests after they lost their pieces.

Edited by Raian, 03 October 2008 - 05:56 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

Going by OoT alone, I would have said the obvious implication is that Link brought the Triforce of Courage with him into Hyrule's past. There were no implications that Link had lost his original Triforce of Courage and received a new Triforce of Courage during OoT's ending; I would have called the argument fanfiction had TWW not told us the Triforce of Courage split into fragments when Link returned to the past. Since it is only TWW that proves Link to have a new Triforce of Courage, I don't see any implications that either Ganondorf or the goddesses must have been responsible for it.

Are you saying we should assume there were two Triforces of Courage in OoT's ending? That doesn't make any sense. The implication is that the Triforce was split in both timelines, possibly because Link was sent back to a time after Ganondorf had already entered the Sacred Realm.

Of course, it is also possible that the crest on Link's hand was an error, like we have seen the TWW characters possess their crests after they lost their pieces.

Hmm, do we even know if it was an error in TWW? I don?t think so. And in OoT's case it was an entirely different scene, so they must have done it intentionally.

[Crimson Lego]

Maybe Link was still destined to hold the ToC when he traveled back in time. Eventually, the Hero in TP got it.

[Raien]

Are you saying we should assume there were two Triforces of Courage in OoT's ending? That doesn't make any sense. The implication is that the Triforce was split in both timelines, possibly because Link was sent back to a time after Ganondorf had already entered the Sacred Realm.

I'm saying that OoT's ending did not give us any reason to believe that Link lost the Triforce of Courage when he returned to the past; Link was shown to have the ToC before returning to the past and he was shown to have it after returning to the past. We can either assume that Link lost his original ToC because of the problematic outcome you just described, or we can refer to TWW's statement that the ToC split into fragments when Link was returned to the past. Either way, there is no implication that Link received a new ToC in OoT's ending itself, and thus there are no implications as to how Link received the new ToC in OoT's ending itself.

Hmm, do we even know if it was an error in TWW? I don’t think so. And in OoT's case it was an entirely different scene, so they must have done it intentionally.

If it wasn't an error in TWW, then it would suggest characters can possess the mark without possessing a piece of the Triforce.

Edited by Raian, 03 October 2008 - 08:01 AM.

[Crimson Lego]

If it wasn't an error in TWW, then it would suggest characters can possess the mark without possessing a piece of the Triforce.

That wouldn't work, because in TP the ToC was what turned him into a wolf.

[Raien]

That wouldn't work, because in TP the ToC was what turned him into a wolf.

And? The suggestion is that people can possess the mark without a Triforce piece, not that everyone who possesses the mark does not possess a Triforce piece.

Edited by Raian, 03 October 2008 - 08:28 AM.

[Crimson Lego]

True; maybe he might not have the pieces, but the power is still passed down through the bloodline.

[Raien]

True; maybe he might not have the pieces, but the power is still passed down through the bloodline.

You misunderstand. My point was applying just to OoT and TWW (and only to characters after they lost their Triforce pieces), not TP. It's pretty much confirmed that the TP characters possessed the Triforce pieces.

[Crimson Lego]

O ok. My bad.


Just to confirm cause I've been wondering about this: the Link in TWW is not a relative of the Link in OoT, correct?

[Raien]

Just to confirm cause I've been wondering about this: the Link in TWW is not a relative of the Link in OoT, correct?

No one really knows. Some think he is related to Link's family, but not likely a direct descendant on the Hero of Time. Some don't believe that there is any relationship.

[Crimson Lego]

Ok, cause I was playing TWW the other day and while I was getting the 3rd pearl, the King of Red Lions said something about Link not being related to the Hero of Time. But he said he sensed great courage in him so....ya.

[wring]

According to A Link to the Past/Four Sword all of the Links are descendants of the Knights of Hyrule.

There is only one Triforce of Courage, it just exsists in two parallel universes, just like everything else in a multiverse. When Link travels back in time he keeps items he gained in the future, but two objects can't exsist in two different places at once when time traveling, thanks to the way Ocarina of Time has time travel set up. Link gets younger/older when he travels through time, and there's no more then one Link at any point in time. Same thing with the Triforce of Courage, there can't be two ToC in one point in time, so the one in the Sacred Realm moved to be with Link.

[FDL]

Going by OoT alone, I would have said the obvious implication is that Link brought the Triforce of Courage with him into Hyrule's past. There were no implications that Link had lost his original Triforce of Courage and received a new Triforce of Courage during OoT's ending; I would have called the argument fanfiction had TWW not told us the Triforce of Courage split into fragments when Link returned to the past. Since it is only TWW that proves Link to have a new Triforce of Courage, I don't see any implications that either Ganondorf or the goddesses must have been responsible for it.

It is in no way fanfiction to say Link would have lost the ToC when the two time periods were sealed off from each other, particularly when the alternative is two Triforce of Courages existing in one time period.

Of course, it is also possible that the crest on Link's hand was an error, like we have seen the TWW characters possess their crests after they lost their pieces.

No offense, but I think it's grasping at straws to say that was an error in OoT. But I would say it was an error in The Wind Waker. Link doesn't have his piece, I'm unsure about Zelda, and Ganondorf does, but only in-game(in the cutscene in which he challenges Link and Zelda he doesn't). If the trophy of him is any indication, the Triforce Mark may actually be a part of his character model. This is not so in OoT with Link and the ToC, so it seems more likely to be intentional in that case.

[Lexxi Aileron]

*Going by OoT alone, I would have said the obvious implication is that Link brought the Triforce of Courage with him into Hyrule's past.

I would say that if this were the case we would have seen it in the scene where he returned to the Temple of Time.

[Raien]

It is in no way fanfiction to say Link would have lost the ToC when the two time periods were sealed off from each other, particularly when the alternative is two Triforce of Courages existing in one time period.

Your belief about what makes sense in the timeline has nothing to do with what suggestions or implications exist in OoT's ending. If Link was shown enterring a cave with the Master Sword and then shown exiting the cave with the Master Sword, you could not argue that the scene implied that Link switched swords in the cave. You might argue that switching swords made more sense with respect to the surrounding context, but the scene itself would make no such implications.

Link possessed the Triforce of Courage before being returned to the past, and he possessed the Triforce of Courage after being returned to the past. Without actually seeing the Triforce of Courage getting switched or characters referring to a switch, the scene itself could not imply that a switch took place. And so if OoT's ending never implied that Link had received the Triforce of Courage in the Child Timeline, how can it imply that Ganondorf was responsible for his receiving of the Triforce of Courage in the Child Timeline?

No offense, but I think it's grasping at straws to say that was an error in OoT. But I would say it was an error in The Wind Waker. Link doesn't have his piece, I'm unsure about Zelda, and Ganondorf does, but only in-game(in the cutscene in which he challenges Link and Zelda he doesn't). If the trophy of him is any indication, the Triforce Mark may actually be a part of his character model. This is not so in OoT with Link and the ToC, so it seems more likely to be intentional in that case.

It's true that Young Link never had a Triforce mark until that ending scene, so it would have to be deliberately placed by Nintendo. Suits me.

Edited by Raian, 03 October 2008 - 12:09 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

If it wasn't an error in TWW, then it would suggest characters can possess the mark without possessing a piece of the Triforce.

For a short while, yes.

I'm saying that OoT's ending did not give us any reason to believe that Link lost the Triforce of Courage when he returned to the past; Link was shown to have the ToC before returning to the past and he was shown to have it after returning to the past. We can either assume that Link lost his original ToC because of the problematic outcome you just described, or we can refer to TWW's statement that the ToC split into fragments when Link was returned to the past. Either way, there is no implication that Link received a new ToC in OoT's ending itself, and thus there are no implications as to how Link received the new ToC in OoT's ending itself.

I'd say it's implied that if Link has the ToC, the other characters also would have their pieces. Otherwise they would have just left it out.

But I would say it was an error in The Wind Waker. Link doesn't have his piece, I'm unsure about Zelda, and Ganondorf does, but only in-game(in the cutscene in which he challenges Link and Zelda he doesn't). If the trophy of him is any indication, the Triforce Mark may actually be a part of his character model. This is not so in OoT with Link and the ToC, so it seems more likely to be intentional in that case.

Ganondorf actually has it in some scenes, but not in others. I admit the way the crests appear and disappear is confusing and appears somewhat random, but in the main scenes, such as when during the King's speech, we can clearly see that Zelda still has a flashing mark on her hand - and frankly, I find that evocative of how Ganondorf's mark acted the end of TP when the power of the Triforce of Power left him.

[Raien]

I'd say it's implied that if Link has the ToC, the other characters also would have their pieces. Otherwise they would have just left it out.

I agree that it indicates that all the characters have their pieces, but it doesn't indicate how they all got their pieces. OoT's ending no more implies that Ganondorf enterred the Sacred Realm than it implies the goddesses gave the pieces to them.

[FDL]

Your belief about what makes sense in the timeline has nothing to do with what suggestions or implications exist in OoT's ending. If Link was shown enterring a cave with the Master Sword and then shown exiting the cave with the Master Sword, you could not argue that the scene implied that Link switched swords in the cave. You might argue that switching swords made more sense with respect to the surrounding context, but the scene itself would make no such implications.

Link possessed the Triforce of Courage before being returned to the past, and he possessed the Triforce of Courage after being returned to the past. Without actually seeing the Triforce of Courage getting switched or characters referring to a switch, the scene itself could not imply that a switch took place. And so if OoT's ending never implied that Link had received the Triforce of Courage in the Child Timeline, how can it imply that Ganondorf was responsible for his receiving of the Triforce of Courage in the Child Timeline?

That's not really a good example, because the cave scenario doesn't involve a time paradox if Link doesn't switch swords, nor does it involve Link taking a Master Sword from an alternate timeline into a different one. And I'm not saying that's completely impossible for something like that to be implied, I'm just saying I don't think any other option is "fanfiction".

Ganondorf actually has it in some scenes, but not in others. I admit the way the crests appear and disappear is confusing and appears somewhat random, but in the main scenes, such as when during the King's speech, we can clearly see that Zelda still has a flashing mark on her hand - and frankly, I find that evocative of how Ganondorf's mark acted the end of TP when the power of the Triforce of Power left him.

Well I assumed the whole thing with Zelda was more because the Triforce wasn't actually scattered yet. It was still connected to them technically. But I think the endings of both TWW and TP are perhaps the most ambiguous when it comes to the state of the Triforce.

I agree that it indicates that all the characters have their pieces, but it doesn't indicate how they all got their pieces. OoT's ending no more implies that Ganondorf enterred the Sacred Realm than it implies the goddesses gave the pieces to them.

See, this is what I was talking about before. Taking into account why Link gained the ToC in the first place(the gods, but only because the Triforce split), the implication appears to be the former when we only take OoT into account. That's not to say it's impossible, just that it doesn't seem to be the implication.

Edited by FDL, 03 October 2008 - 12:38 PM.

[Raien]

I've just realised that I've misread the point that started this whole argument, and quite frankly I'm sick of this subject now.

When the timeline split, all three characters got their Triforce pieces. There's no conclusive evidence to say how they got their Triforce pieces.

End of debate.

Edited by Raian, 03 October 2008 - 12:45 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The box hasn't been contradicted? It's been contradicted twice: by Miyamoto (OoT-LoZ/AoL-ALttP) and Osawa (OoT=IW; OoT no longer connects directly to ALttP as of TWW). This is like saying the single timeline hasn't been contradicted.

Seeing how those comments contradicted other canonical statements, I don't really trust developers statements anymore unless they're from Aonuma.

1) The entire point of LoZ/AoL is to make the country united and prosperous. Presumably the country is only not prosperous because it awaits a "new king" who will be the "light of hope" for Hyrule.
2) The Deku Tree is supposed to be bringing the islands together; the fact that there is a game in which this has not happened yet is irrelevant.
3) There's no evidence that there're no Hylians in LoZ/AoL; the concept hadn't been developed yet. In fact, according to official art made to illustrate the story after the concept was developed in ALttP, most people do.

1) Prosperous I give you, but not united, that was never really stated. For all we know, they'll continue as two states, since we have two Princess Zeldas to deal with.
2) The Deku Tree wants to. Whether he actually accomplishes it or not is something else entirely.
3) Everyone has ROUND EARS, Zelda included.

Its the way timetravel works in Zelda, if you obtain something in the future, when you go back in time you keep it. You can't use some of the items ment for an adult/child to use, but I still believe you keep all your items when you time travel. Like when you obtain the Goron and Zora Tunic it says its an adult size. When you go back in time and become a kid, you keep the tunic, but you can't use it because you're too small to fit inside of it. Heart Containers you collect as an adult, disapear in the child timeline, too. I think that Link's items also get younger like Link gets younger, so that there arn't two items appearing in the same point in time, and there arn't two Link's appearing in the same point in time.

Actually, in OOT's time travel, only Link's mind is traversing time, sending himself to sleep to go to the future and sending his soul back to the past. The keeping of items and heart containers is temporally paradoxial, and is probably only done for the sake of the game play. Because of Link pulling out the Master Sword, the Sacred Realm was opened, allowing Ganondorf to touch the Triforce; thus it's split in both timelines.

According to A Link to the Past/Four Sword all of the Links are descendants of the Knights of Hyrule.

Technically only LTTP Link is bound by that requirement because of the Cataclysm's Eve prophecy.

There is only one Triforce of Courage, it just exsists in two parallel universes, just like everything else in a multiverse. When Link travels back in time he keeps items he gained in the future, but two objects can't exsist in two different places at once when time traveling, thanks to the way Ocarina of Time has time travel set up. Link gets younger/older when he travels through time, and there's no more then one Link at any point in time. Same thing with the Triforce of Courage, there can't be two ToC in one point in time, so the one in the Sacred Realm moved to be with Link.

OOT's time travel doesn't work that way. Besides, if there's a Triforce for each fork of the timeline, then there's two Triforces.

[wring]

Its the way timetravel works in Zelda, if you obtain something in the future, when you go back in time you keep it. You can't use some of the items ment for an adult/child to use, but I still believe you keep all your items when you time travel. Like when you obtain the Goron and Zora Tunic it says its an adult size. When you go back in time and become a kid, you keep the tunic, but you can't use it because you're too small to fit inside of it. Heart Containers you collect as an adult, disapear in the child timeline, too. I think that Link's items also get younger like Link gets younger, so that there arn't two items appearing in the same point in time, and there arn't two Link's appearing in the same point in time.

Actually, in OOT's time travel, only Link's mind is traversing time, sending himself to sleep to go to the future and sending his soul back to the past. The keeping of items and heart containers is temporally paradoxial, and is probably only done for the sake of the game play. Because of Link pulling out the Master Sword, the Sacred Realm was opened, allowing Ganondorf to touch the Triforce; thus it's split in both timelines.

According to A Link to the Past/Four Sword all of the Links are descendants of the Knights of Hyrule.

Technically only LTTP Link is bound by that requirement because of the Cataclysm's Eve prophecy.

There is only one Triforce of Courage, it just exsists in two parallel universes, just like everything else in a multiverse. When Link travels back in time he keeps items he gained in the future, but two objects can't exsist in two different places at once when time traveling, thanks to the way Ocarina of Time has time travel set up. Link gets younger/older when he travels through time, and there's no more then one Link at any point in time. Same thing with the Triforce of Courage, there can't be two ToC in one point in time, so the one in the Sacred Realm moved to be with Link.

OOT's time travel doesn't work that way. Besides, if there's a Triforce for each fork of the timeline, then there's two Triforces.

There would only be one triforce, because that's the way split universes work. There's only one object, but it exsists in different forms, in different places, and in different states, at the same time. Which brings up the question of what splits the object and keeps it split, if it is the same object. Which is why I don't believe in a multiverse.

Ganondorf never touched the triforce in the child side, because Link never opened the Sacred Realm in the Child side. He techincally put away the Master Sword before he ever pulled it out, and stopped himself from pulling it out as a Child. The scene where he meets Zelda is repeated, which implies that Zelda hasn't made her plans to stop Ganondorf yet, and Link can just tell her not to be used by Ganondorf to open the portal to the sacred Realm, and the whole game never happens. So the Triforce couldn't possibly be split in the Child side. Maybe Link kept his piece, but that's believable. And its more then just link sending is soul back in time to his young body, because at the end of the game, he goes back to the Temple of Time, before him and Zelda ever met, and Link hadn't found the Master Sword before he met Zelda, originally. Just like Link hadn't gotten the ToC originally. If he can show up at the Master Sword's pedestal before he ever pulled it out, he could hold the ToC before he ever found it.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Seeing how those comments contradicted other canonical statements, I don't really trust developers statements anymore unless they're from Aonuma.

1) Have you ever heard of a retcon before, honestly?
2) Aside from the box text, what statements?

1) Prosperous I give you, but not united, that was never really stated. For all we know, they'll continue as two states, since we have two Princess Zeldas to deal with.
2) The Deku Tree wants to. Whether he actually accomplishes it or not is something else entirely.
3) Everyone has ROUND EARS, Zelda included.

1) The "little kingdom of Hyrule" is considered the land in LoZ, IIRC, despite the actual settlements being in AoL.
2) The only stated obstacle to this plan is Ganon. XD
3) Only in the original official art, before Hylians were even developed. Otherwise, Impa and Link have long ears in the NES art, and everyone in the guide art for AoL's story, made after the idea of the Hylians with long ears surfaced, has long ears.

[Impossible]

1) You have to assume that no one could have possibly captured Ganondorf while he has the Triforce of Power to assume then that my argument is illogical, despite the fact that he is clearly captured in TP and clearly has the Triforce of Power.

What the hell? You just accused me of having a circular argument, but this is as circular as it gets. There's no evidence that Ganondorf has the ToP before he was captured. Logic suggests that he didn't. If he'd had it, he would have taken over Hyrule, and there's no evidence of anything that would possibly prevent this. Then the Master Sword would be needed. You're deliberately misstating events based on your own bias, in a way that is only true if your theory is assumed to be correct. Sounds circular to me.

2) The sages themselves admit to being careless in the game itself; why is it then illogical to make the claim that they were careless?

Careless is not the same as completely stupid. If Ganondorf had the ToP, he would have already used it to try to defend himself from capture, meaning they would be pretty dumb to put him in a situation he could escape from. And Ganondorf would be pretty dumb to let himself receive a fatal wound and be sealed away.

I know from your big timeline theory file that you believe Ganondorf randomly gained the Triforce at the Arbiters Ground.

Sure, just ignore the actual argument and say that it's "random".

My point is, if Link went back to a time before he even met Zelda/Darunia/Ruto/etc., he would not be known so well hundreds of years later. When TP Link's garb and actions immediately remind everyone of the old hero, this old hero has to have done something that would keep him in the mind of all the tribes in Hyrule.

Except he didn't, and this isn't my theory or anything I've ever claimed, as you should know from much more important parts of my timeline document, and my posts here. He had already met those people, saving the Gorons, Ruto, and ultimately Hyrule, according to Aonuma's explanation of what happened after.

Um, no, it wouldn't. It would suggest he was captured because he was overconfident and was thus captured, which is exactly what the Sages say. Hell, that line actually suggests he did gain the Triforce before the AG scene, because he was not "overconfidently blind to any danger" back then.

If he had the ToP, it wouldn't have been overconfidence, it would have been justified confidence. Being blind to danger isn't enough. The ToP made Ganondorf powerful enough to break any restraint the sages could put on him, and to kill the sages. Both of these are facts from TP. He would have been just as "overconfident" on the Adult Timeline, but either way, he was too powerful to be captured.

The "Oh yeah, right" seems to imply that the explanation for why we're having a "moronic argument" is that I'm a moron.

Wasn't talking to you.

He didn't seem surprised at all that he had the ToP. Besides, Ganondorf thought he was going to die at the end of OoT before the Triforce gave him a second wind and turned him into Ganon. Link didn't know what was going to happen when he was pulled into the Twilight until he turned into Wolf Link. In both of those instances they already had the Triforce. This is really no different.

The logic here is horrifically, obviously flawed. Ganondorf was NOT aware of the ToP in him until that moment, that's pretty clear. You saying that Ganondorf thought he could die merely proves my point - if that's the case, he's a fucking idiot for actually nearly letting himself be killed. This is NOTHING like the end of OoT, because he had every opportunity to break free at any time, and there's no way he wouldn't have already tried to do so. So, yes, this suggests illogical actions on the part of the characters.

Edited by Impossible, 04 October 2008 - 04:39 AM.

[FDL]

Huh...I thought this was over for now. Oh well.

Careless is not the same as completely stupid. If Ganondorf had the ToP, he would have already used it to try to defend himself from capture, meaning they would be pretty dumb to put him in a situation he could escape from. And Ganondorf would be pretty dumb to let himself receive a fatal wound and be sealed away.

I like the fact that you're ignoring that the game itself says that it was a misjudgement of theirs. You can keep saying it's "illogical" all you want, but it fits perfectly with what it says in the game itself. They said that they were careless and they overestimated their powers. If Ganondorf did not have the Triforce already that wouldn't be any fault of theirs when he broke free. I'm not sure why you didn't respond to the part of my last post in which I brought it up.

Beating someone and then getting struck by lightning=/=overestimating one's abilities.

Sure, just ignore the actual argument and say that it's "random".

People can use the words "destiny" and "fate" a thousand times, that doesn't mean it doesn't seem ridiculously random for Ganondorf to gain the Triforce right at that moment.

Except he didn't, and this isn't my theory or anything I've ever claimed, as you should know from much more important parts of my timeline document, and my posts here. He had already met those people, saving the Gorons, Ruto, and ultimately Hyrule, according to Aonuma's explanation of what happened after.

So your theory is that he went back to the time right before he picked up the Master Sword?

If he had the ToP, it wouldn't have been overconfidence, it would have been justified confidence. Being blind to danger isn't enough. The ToP made Ganondorf powerful enough to break any restraint the sages could put on him, and to kill the sages. Both of these are facts from TP. He would have been just as "overconfident" on the Adult Timeline, but either way, he was too powerful to be captured.

Those aren't actually "facts from TP". It wouldn't be justified confidence because he can still be beaten. You can be the strongest man in the world, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be vigilant to danger. The Triforce of Power gave him that strength after he was put into a dangerous situation that he would not survive normally. This is no different than when it saved Ganondorf at the end of ToP(which gave him the same appearance, the same enhanced physical strength, etc.) and when the ToC saved Link from the Twilight. And as I've said before, the "he would be too powerful to be captured, just look at the AT" thing is a flawed argument. We know Link wasn't there in the AT, and we don't know what the status of the Sages was in that timeline either.

The logic here is horrifically, obviously flawed. Ganondorf was NOT aware of the ToP in him until that moment, that's pretty clear. You saying that Ganondorf thought he could die merely proves my point - if that's the case, he's a fucking idiot for actually nearly letting himself be killed. This is NOTHING like the end of OoT, because he had every opportunity to break free at any time, and there's no way he wouldn't have already tried to do so. So, yes, this suggests illogical actions on the part of the characters.

This is EXACTLY like the ending of Ocarina of Time. Ganondorf uses the last of his strength to bury HIMSELF in the ruins of his tower, in a last ditch attempt to kill Link and Zelda. But, lo and behold, the Triforce saves him and gives him the same physical appearance and strength he has in TP. Neither in TP nor OoT does he "let himself nearly be killed". He did what he could to try and win(though he was overconfident in doing so), but when that failed he was saved by the ToP. He didn't know that was going to happen, and neither did the Sages. If the fucking LEADER of the Sages, who is well versed in Triforce lore besides, wasn't aware of that feature of the Triforce the TP Sages and Ganondorf being unaware of it makes perfect sense.

Edited by FDL, 04 October 2008 - 10:23 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

There would only be one triforce, because that's the way split universes work. There's only one object, but it exsists in different forms, in different places, and in different states, at the same time. Which brings up the question of what splits the object and keeps it split, if it is the same object. Which is why I don't believe in a multiverse.

You're having a bit of metaphysical confusion here. It's not the "matter" of the object(s) being split, but their space and time (and it's a magical universe, even if mass were the issue). With two universes, there would be one of each object in each universe, thus two. Once those timelines are split, there's absolutely separate universes, like Hyrule and Termina. I don't see why you would disbelieve the notion of a multiverse just because you odn't know what would KEEP it that way. Universes aren't rubber bands.

Ganondorf never touched the triforce in the child side, because Link never opened the Sacred Realm in the Child side. He techincally put away the Master Sword before he ever pulled it out, and stopped himself from pulling it out as a Child. The scene where he meets Zelda is repeated, which implies that Zelda hasn't made her plans to stop Ganondorf yet, and Link can just tell her not to be used by Ganondorf to open the portal to the sacred Realm, and the whole game never happens. So the Triforce couldn't possibly be split in the Child side. Maybe Link kept his piece, but that's believable. And its more then just link sending is soul back in time to his young body, because at the end of the game, he goes back to the Temple of Time, before him and Zelda ever met, and Link hadn't found the Master Sword before he met Zelda, originally. Just like Link hadn't gotten the ToC originally. If he can show up at the Master Sword's pedestal before he ever pulled it out, he could hold the ToC before he ever found it.

Except Link DID pull it out in the Child Timeline. Otherwise he'd be stuck behind a closed Door of Time. And how can you put a sword in a pedestal without taking it out first? Your logic is absurdly stupid. As for why Zelda is repeating that scene, she probably came back to the castle since it was safe again.

1) Have you ever heard of a retcon before, honestly?
2) Aside from the box text, what statements?

1) Yes. Do you know what constitutes a retcon, or why we should believe one happened?
2) Does it matter? The box makes it clear the original intent of LTTP's placement, and the hoops you have to jump through to justify your positions make your theories get assraped by Occam's Razor.

1) The "little kingdom of Hyrule" is considered the land in LoZ, IIRC, despite the actual settlements being in AoL.
2) The only stated obstacle to this plan is Ganon. XD
3) Only in the original official art, before Hylians were even developed. Otherwise, Impa and Link have long ears in the NES art, and everyone in the guide art for AoL's story, made after the idea of the Hylians with long ears surfaced, has long ears.

1) Uh huh.
2) The only stated one. The Deku Tree could be suffering the same arrogance as Daphnes and Ganondorf though. Or maybe he just didn't work out his plan because trees don't summon land mass from the aether.
3) Regardless, it's still fairly obvious that this is the darkest point of Hylian history. It was already dwindling to near nothing in LTTP, and now there's no Sages left, it looks like, and Link is a foreigner, and thus probably not Hylian; at the very least not as pure as his LTTP ancestor.

I like the fact that you're ignoring that the game itself says that it was a misjudgement of theirs. You can keep saying it's "illogical" all you want, but it fits perfectly with what it says in the game itself. They said that they were careless and they overestimated their powers. If Ganondorf did not have the Triforce already that wouldn't be any fault of theirs when he broke free. I'm not sure why you didn't respond to the part of my last post in which I brought it up.

Beating someone and then getting struck by lightning=/=overestimating one's abilities.

My thoughts exactly.

[wring]

There would only be one triforce, because that's the way split universes work. There's only one object, but it exsists in different forms, in different places, and in different states, at the same time. Which brings up the question of what splits the object and keeps it split, if it is the same object. Which is why I don't believe in a multiverse.

You're having a bit of metaphysical confusion here. It's not the "matter" of the object(s) being split, but their space and time (and it's a magical universe, even if mass were the issue). With two universes, there would be one of each object in each universe, thus two. Once those timelines are split, there's absolutely separate universes, like Hyrule and Termina. I don't see why you would disbelieve the notion of a multiverse just because you odn't know what would KEEP it that way. Universes aren't rubber bands.

Ganondorf never touched the triforce in the child side, because Link never opened the Sacred Realm in the Child side. He techincally put away the Master Sword before he ever pulled it out, and stopped himself from pulling it out as a Child. The scene where he meets Zelda is repeated, which implies that Zelda hasn't made her plans to stop Ganondorf yet, and Link can just tell her not to be used by Ganondorf to open the portal to the sacred Realm, and the whole game never happens. So the Triforce couldn't possibly be split in the Child side. Maybe Link kept his piece, but that's believable. And its more then just link sending is soul back in time to his young body, because at the end of the game, he goes back to the Temple of Time, before him and Zelda ever met, and Link hadn't found the Master Sword before he met Zelda, originally. Just like Link hadn't gotten the ToC originally. If he can show up at the Master Sword's pedestal before he ever pulled it out, he could hold the ToC before he ever found it.

Except Link DID pull it out in the Child Timeline. Otherwise he'd be stuck behind a closed Door of Time. And how can you put a sword in a pedestal without taking it out first? Your logic is absurdly stupid. As for why Zelda is repeating that scene, she probably came back to the castle since it was safe again.

But then the sage of Spirit would be kidnapped inside the Spirit Temple for the rest of eternity, because nobody's there on the child timeline who can save her!

Timetravel lets you put back the sword before you pull it out. He isn't stuck behind a closed door of time because he's already at the Master Sword, so there would be no reason for the door to be closed.

But look at the first time you meet Zelda, she's looking at the window gasps, and then faces back towords Link, its the exact same thing she does at the end scene. No wait, you're right, its just a coincendence, she really went back to the castle because it was safe because Link went back in time and never defeated Ganondorf, so Ganondorf is still in control of Hyrule Castle, but its safe anyways.

[Lexxi Aileron]

What the hell? You just accused me of having a circular argument, but this is as circular as it gets.

I don't need to assume that Ganondorf gets the Triforce of Power or that he is captured by the sages; neither do I need to assume that both could coincide. You, on the other hand, have the burden of proof when making the claim that they could not coincide, as you do below:

There's no evidence that Ganondorf has the ToP before he was captured. Logic suggests that he didn't. If he'd had it, he would have taken over Hyrule, and there's no evidence of anything that would possibly prevent this. Then the Master Sword would be needed. You're deliberately misstating events based on your own bias, in a way that is only true if your theory is assumed to be correct. Sounds circular to me.

Your argument here is "Ganondorf couldn't have been captured if he had the Triforce of Power because logic suggests that he didn't," which is circular. My argument is that "Ganondorf was captured and has the Triforce of Power," which is entirely true. Nothing shows us that he ever didn't have the Triforce of Power in the events shown by TP.

Careless is not the same as completely stupid.

No, but obviously it's enough to set up for the situation of TP.

And Ganondorf would be pretty dumb to let himself receive a fatal wound and be sealed away.

LOL PLAY OOT

1) Yes. Do you know what constitutes a retcon, or why we should believe one happened?
2) Does it matter? The box makes it clear the original intent of LTTP's placement, and the hoops you have to jump through to justify your positions make your theories get assraped by Occam's Razor.

1) A retcon happens when an ongoing fictional continuity suffers changes to original plot details and/or chronologies. The form really doesn't matter.
2) Occam's Razor dictates that the simplest solution is best. Assuming a reference to the ancestors of Link and Zelda refers to known ancestors of Link and Zelda in the same media is far simpler than assuming the reference is to an outside media.

The only stated one. The Deku Tree could be suffering the same arrogance as Daphnes and Ganondorf though. Or maybe he just didn't work out his plan because trees don't summon land mass from the aether.

So basically your argument is "he's wrong" and you have nothing to back it up?

Regardless, it's still fairly obvious that this is the darkest point of Hylian history. It was already dwindling to near nothing in LTTP, and now there's no Sages left, it looks like, and Link is a foreigner, and thus probably not Hylian; at the very least not as pure as his LTTP ancestor.

Darkest point in Hyrulean history and Link being a foreigner both point to a post-flood world as much as a post-ALttP world; in my opinion even moreso.

I like the fact that you're ignoring that the game itself says that it was a misjudgement of theirs. You can keep saying it's "illogical" all you want, but it fits perfectly with what it says in the game itself. They said that they were careless and they overestimated their powers. If Ganondorf did not have the Triforce already that wouldn't be any fault of theirs when he broke free. I'm not sure why you didn't respond to the part of my last post in which I brought it up.

I hope they'll listen to you because I brought this up about a million times when this argument first came up two years ago and everybody pretended they had no idea what I was talking about.

[NM87]

If Ganondorf had the ToP all along in TP, how could he have been subdued and brought to justice? With the power of the Triforce nothing can stop him, save the Hero. Ganondorf only received the power of his respective Goddess when fate stepped in to rescue him. Therefore, Ganondorf is able to survive the mortal wound with newfound power without gaining the actual Triforce. When Zelda explains that Hyrule was the land where the power of the Gods was said to be hidden, she hints that it has not been found yet.

[Lexxi Aileron]

If Ganondorf had the ToP all along in TP, how could he have been subdued and brought to justice? With the power of the Triforce nothing can stop him, save the Hero.

This is circular reasoning. "How could Ganondorf be stopped if he can't be stopped?"

The fact is that Ganondorf can be stopped if the developers want him to be, and that nothing indicates that Ganondorf ever did not have the Triforce of Power. In fact, the sages' description of his capture, which according to them was able to be pulled off purely because they had the element of surprise and Ganondorf was overconfident, and his execution, which they say failed because they overestimated their own abilities and because Ganondorf had the blessed power of the gods.

Ganondorf's possession of the Triforce of Power is specifically mentioned as an obstacle to his execution, but apparently his inability to get it doesn't play enough of a role in his capture to be worth mentioning, even though apparently that's precisely what changed in the Child timeline, according to your theory.

[NM87]

This is circular reasoning. "How could Ganondorf be stopped if he can't be stopped?"

What more is there to say? Its only circular if you turn it into a question. I am simply stating that he was stopped because it was possible for him to be, not having Triforce.

The fact is that Ganondorf can be stopped if the developers want him to be, and that nothing indicates that Ganondorf ever did not have the Triforce of Power. In fact, the sages' description of his capture, which according to them was able to be pulled off purely because they had the element of surprise and Ganondorf was overconfident, and his execution, which they say failed because they overestimated their own abilities and because Ganondorf had the blessed power of the gods.

Why should it be any different from the way OOT played out even if they had the element of surprise? Which, by the way, they did not. The sages begin to explain how Ganondorf was subdued after becoming powerful, and then they inform Link he was blessed by the chosen power of the gods. This seems to infer that he obtained such power after he was subdued as a regular warlock or whatever.

Ganondorf's possession of the Triforce of Power is specifically mentioned as an obstacle to his execution, but apparently his inability to get it doesn't play enough of a role in his capture to be worth mentioning, even though apparently that's precisely what changed in the Child timeline, according to your theory.

Ok, its an obstacle after he has been captured, in which the sages think they overestimated his powers but in reality he suddenly gains power.