506 replies to this topic

[Lexxi Aileron]

hat more is there to say? Its only circular if you turn it into a question. I am simply stating that he was stopped because it was possible for him to be, not having Triforce.

Actually, you stated the converse; it's impossible for him to be stopped if he has the Triforce. There is really nothing that says this is true.

Why should it be any different from the way OOT played out even if they had the element of surprise?

Presumably enough that that's what the script says while saying nothing about stopping him from getting the Triforce.

Ok, its an obstacle after he has been captured, in which the sages think they overestimated his powers but in reality he suddenly gains power.

Same thing happened in OoT, as has been restated to death.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 05 October 2008 - 01:16 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

But then the sage of Spirit would be kidnapped inside the Spirit Temple for the rest of eternity, because nobody's there on the child timeline who can save her!

Yea...except LINK. His knowledge of the future would allow him to save Nabooru the same way he prevented Ganondorf from taking over.

Timetravel lets you put back the sword before you pull it out. He isn't stuck behind a closed door of time because he's already at the Master Sword, so there would be no reason for the door to be closed.

By your theory's logic, there'd already be THAT time period's Master Sword in the pedestal. It's impossible, get over it, your theory doesn't work. Try again.

But look at the first time you meet Zelda, she's looking at the window gasps, and then faces back towords Link, its the exact same thing she does at the end scene. No wait, you're right, its just a coincendence, she really went back to the castle because it was safe because Link went back in time and never defeated Ganondorf, so Ganondorf is still in control of Hyrule Castle, but its safe anyways.

He didn't take over Hyrule Castle yet, he RAN OFF. Atleast try and make your theories consistent with the games.

1) A retcon happens when an ongoing fictional continuity suffers changes to original plot details and/or chronologies. The form really doesn't matter.
2) Occam's Razor dictates that the simplest solution is best. Assuming a reference to the ancestors of Link and Zelda refers to known ancestors of Link and Zelda in the same media is far simpler than assuming the reference is to an outside media.

1) And again, we have no reason to assume one took place.
2) Holy shit, is Occam's Razor your stepchild? Because that was one of the biggest abuses of it I've ever seen.

So basically your argument is "he's wrong" and you have nothing to back it up?

It's not "He's wrong", but more "He's not necessarily right."

Darkest point in Hyrulean history and Link being a foreigner both point to a post-flood world as much as a post-ALttP world; in my opinion even moreso.

If you want, but I personally believe any revival of Hyrule is a big cockslap to the entire point of TWW's Aesop.

[FDL]

If Ganondorf had the ToP all along in TP, how could he have been subdued and brought to justice? With the power of the Triforce nothing can stop him, save the Hero. Ganondorf only received the power of his respective Goddess when fate stepped in to rescue him. Therefore, Ganondorf is able to survive the mortal wound with newfound power without gaining the actual Triforce. When Zelda explains that Hyrule was the land where the power of the Gods was said to be hidden, she hints that it has not been found yet.

Lex covered this pretty well, but the idea that there is no way he could have been temporarily stopped because he has the Triforce of Power isn't really backed up by anything. The game says he was captured because he exposed a weak point in his arrogance, what that weak point was is irrelevant. But the fact that they needed to get the jump on him is. It's not a "The Sages are stronger than Ganondorf" thing, it's a "The Sages outsmarted Ganondorf" thing.

And that line Zelda says only hints at that if you also believe the Triforce isn't in The Wind Waker either. It said the power of the gods used to sleep in Hyrule, implying it no longer sleeps.

This is Hyrule, the kingdom where once the power of the gods was said to sleep.

"Once" and "was said" implies it no longer does sleep. This line is mirrored in TWW.

As for this:

Ok, its an obstacle after he has been captured, in which the sages think they overestimated his powers but in reality he suddenly gains power.

That doesn't really make sense. You use the Sages "Divine Prank" line as some sort of proof that Ganondorf did not gain the Triforce until then, but you then turn around and say that a much less vague line really implies something that it doesn't? The Sages say that they overestimated their power and that's why Midna's people suffered. What caused the execution to not go smoothly and force them to dump Ganondorf into the mirror? The Triforce. It would not be an overestimation of their abilities if he gained it after the tried to stop him, because if not for the Triforce Ganondorf would be dead. No offense, but that line really makes no sense if you try to interpret it in the way you claim it can be interpreted.

Edited by FDL, 05 October 2008 - 09:35 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

1) And again, we have no reason to assume one took place.
2) Holy shit, is Occam's Razor your stepchild? Because that was one of the biggest abuses of it I've ever seen.

If ALttP was said to be a prequel to LoZ/AoL, as you said, this position was retconned in 1998.

If you want, but I personally believe any revival of Hyrule is a big cockslap to the entire point of TWW's Aesop.

I personally believe that Daphnes's response of "that land will not be Hyrule" doesn't have any significant meaning beyond "I'm not coming with you to your new land because it won't be my old one," especially considering he's responding to Tetra's plea that he go with them. He doesn't seem to be condemning the idea that the land be named Hyrule at all. I think THAT idea goes against the entire point of his wish, that he give them hope; if they want to build a new Hyrule, why would he tell them "oshi kid, you can't"?

[Raien]

It is possible that after discovering that Ganondorf possessed the Triforce of Power, the Sages believed he had possessed it from the very beginning. The Sages overestimated their abilities because they believed exposing Ganondorf's initial weakness was enough to keep his magic under control.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I forgot to respond partially to MPS: This site abuses Occam's Razor more than in any other argument forum I have seen, ever. Never once have I seen it actually serve the ideal of making conclusions simpler; instead it is used to pretend a complicated mess isn't complicated.

The Sages overestimated their abilities because they believed exposing Ganondorf's initial weakness was enough to keep his magic under control.

This is true regardless of whether that magic is the Triforce of Power or not, which is why myself and FDL feel there's no reason to assume that he didn't have the Triforce. What you say actually literally parallels what we see; the sages literally expose a weak point (the wound in his chest) but are unable to keep him down.

[FDL]

It is possible that after discovering that Ganondorf possessed the Triforce of Power, the Sages believed he had possessed it from the very beginning. The Sages overestimated their abilities because they believed exposing Ganondorf's initial weakness was enough to keep his magic under control.

I should think they would have said they were underestimating Ganondorf rather than overestimating themselves if that were the case. However, that is slighly more possible. But it isn't what NM said.

This is true regardless of whether that magic is the Triforce of Power or not, which is why myself and FDL feel there's no reason to assume that he didn't have the Triforce. What you say actually literally parallels what we see; the sages literally expose a weak point (the wound in his chest) but are unable to keep him down.

I never said I thought the weak point they describe is his wound.

Edited by FDL, 05 October 2008 - 11:16 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I never said I thought the weak point they describe is his wound.

That's not what I'm saying either, I'm just saying that what we see on screen happens to be somewhat of a literal representation of what they describe involving his capture and empowerment.

[Raien]

I should think they would have said they were underestimating Ganondorf rather than overestimating themselves if that were the case. However, that is slightly more possible.

If capturing Ganondorf caused the Sages to drop their guard, then they would be overestimating their abilities. Ganondorf's acquisiton of strength only showed how much they overestimated themselves.

But it isn't what NM said.

NM and Impossible were late to the discussion, so I think we can forgive them for stating their case with more certainty than the evidence really suggests.

[FDL]

If capturing Ganondorf caused the Sages to drop their guard, then they would be overestimating their abilities. Ganondorf's acquisiton of strength only showed how much they overestimated themselves.

Not really. That would still fall under underestimating Ganondorf. Overestimation implies they knew what they were up against and believed they could handle it(though I do think this was in part because they were capable of temporarily stopping him), but were mistaken. And if he gained a new power after they attempted to kill him, it would fall under neither.

NM and Impossible were late to the discussion, so I think we can forgive them for stating their case with more certainty than the evidence really suggests.

Yes, in most cases. But not in the sense of claiming that statement suggests Ganondorf gained the "power of the gods" at that moment.

Edited by FDL, 05 October 2008 - 12:11 PM.

[Raien]

Not really. That would still fall under underestimating Ganondorf. Overestimation implies they knew what they were up against and believed they could handle it(though I do think this was in part because they were capable of temporarily stoping him), but were mistaken. And if he gained a new power after they attempted to kill him, it would fall under neither.

But what if Ganondorf had the Triforce of Power before the Sages attempted to kill him? Surely the Sages would have been able to sense that power inside Ganondorf if they were careful enough to check?

[FDL]

That's possible. We know Triforce bearers can tell when another person has a Triforce piece, but that may just be because of their glowing crests. Have we ever seen whether or not others can do that? I don't know if there's any indication they can, beyond seeing/knowing of the crest.


BTW, on a mainly unrelated note, do you still believe Farore is the Goddess of Time from MM? I thought that was an awesome theory.

Edited by FDL, 05 October 2008 - 12:33 PM.

[Raien]

That's possible. We know Triforce bearers can tell when another person has a Triforce piece, but that may just be because of their glowing crests. Have we ever seen whether or not others can do that? I don't know if there's any indication they can, beyond seeing/knowing of the crest.

Certainly Triforce-bearers can sense each other because their pieces resonate, but when we consider that the Sages are supposed to be the most ancient (spiritually) and powerful magic-wielders in Hyrule, I can't see how they could not detect that power if they put their magic to the task.

Anyway, I just wanted to establish that the Sages' guilt does not determine that they were initially aware that Ganondorf had acquired the Triforce of Power when they captured him. That is all.

[Lexxi Aileron]

But what if Ganondorf had the Triforce of Power before the Sages attempted to kill him? Surely the Sages would have been able to sense that power inside Ganondorf if they were careful enough to check?

Why do you think they were so eager to execute him that they made the error of overestimating their abilities, Raian? That's precisely our (or at least my) justification for believing that Ganondorf must have had the Triforce of Power.

[MikePetersSucks]

If ALttP was said to be a prequel to LoZ/AoL, as you said, this positieon was retconned in 1998.

Based on what? I'm not taking quotes from inconsistent people who's job isn't storywriting.

[FDL]

Certainly Triforce-bearers can sense each other because their pieces resonate, but when we consider that the Sages are supposed to be the most ancient (spiritually) and powerful magic-wielders in Hyrule, I can't see how they could not detect that power if they put their magic to the task.

Anyway, I just wanted to establish that the Sages' guilt does not determine that they were initially aware that Ganondorf had acquired the Triforce of Power when they captured him. That is all.

I'm not sure how that's overestimating their powers, though. That's what their guilt supposedly comes from. It's still carelessness if they don't, but if they had no idea he had the Triforce it's not an overestimation of their powers. And we still have no way of knowing whether or not they can sense Triforce pieces.

Edited by FDL, 05 October 2008 - 01:14 PM.

[Raien]

Why do you think they were so eager to execute him that they made the error of overestimating their abilities, Raian? That's precisely our (or at least my) justification for believing that Ganondorf must have had the Triforce of Power.

I agree with you and FDL that if Link had the Triforce of Courage during OoT's ending, then it makes sense that Zelda and Ganondorf had their respective Triforce pieces too (although I forget whether OoT's ending shows Zelda with her piece, but that's another matter). So with that established, Ganondorf would have the Triforce of Power before being captured and the Sages would be unaware that he possessed it.

Where our theories differ is that I don't believe that Ganondorf enterred the Sacred Realm to touch the Triforce; I believe Link stopped him from enterring the Sacred Realm, which caused the timeline to split. The characters in TP believe that the goddesses chose Link, Zelda and Ganondorf to possess the Triforce pieces, and although they don't state any certainty on the subject, I am tempted to believe this was the case.

I'm not sure how that's overestimating their powers, though. That's what their guilt supposedly comes from. It's still carelessness if they don't, but if they had no idea he had the Triforce it's not an overestimation of their powers. And we still have no way of knowing whether or not they can sense Triforce pieces.

The Sages overestimated their powers by thinking that their powers already had Ganondorf's evil magic under control.

Edited by Raian, 05 October 2008 - 01:27 PM.

[FDL]

Their overestimation definitely seems to be more general than that. They say they overestimated their power in trying to control the evil magic. That again seems to imply that they knew what they were up against technically, but believed they were better than they were anyway. I mean, it just seems like your explanation fits the "carelessness" part perfectly, but doesn't really seem to make sense with the "overestimation" part to me.

Oh, also, Zelda's right hand is never really seen in OoT's ending. But I'd say the Triforce resonating(where it wasn't in the ToT) implies that Zelda has her piece too, even if we don't see it.

Edited by FDL, 05 October 2008 - 01:45 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

To Raian: That's more than fair enough, I suppose. And I'm guessing you base the idea that Ganondorf never got into the Sacred Realm mostly on the meeting at the end, with the discussion of the chosen of the goddesses being supplementary?

I differ in that I think Ganondorf was prevented from conquering Hyrule but not claiming the Triforce of Power (as he did in OoT). I see no reason why the belief that he is "chosen" to hold the Triforce of Power should be incompatible with him receiving the piece when he touches the Triforce; among the three pieces, he had to get one, so I guess you could say in a way he was "chosen" to have Power even in OoT. If him being prevented from entering the Sacred Realm was what caused the timeline to split, I don't see why the Triforce would split anyway.

Based on what? I'm not taking quotes from inconsistent people who's job isn't storywriting.

Yet you took the box text? Just saying.

[Raien]

Their overestimation definitely seems to be more general than that. They say they overestimated their power in trying to control the evil magic. That again seems to imply that they knew what they were up against technically, but believed they were better than they were anyway. I mean, it just seems like your explanation fits the "carelessness" part perfectly, but doesn't really seem to make sense with the "overestimation" part to me.

When characters talk about a power balance, then the meaning can apply to both sides. For example, if John McCain was expected to win the US Election but fails, then we could say that we overestimated the support for McCain or we underestimated the support for Barack Obama. It doesn't matter whether factors caused Barack's support to increase or Obama's support to decrease; what matters is the expectation of the power balance.

The Sages believed that their power was strong enough to control Ganondorf's evil magic; thus they both underestimated the strength of Ganondorf's evil magic and overestimated their own abilities to contain it.

To Raian: That's more than fair enough, I suppose. And I'm guessing you base the idea that Ganondorf never got into the Sacred Realm mostly on the meeting at the end, with the discussion of the chosen of the goddesses being supplementary?

I believe that the point of OoT's ending was to bring peace to Hyrule in both timelines, and I don't see why the Sages should have been able to stop Ganondorf in the Child Timeline, but not in the Adult Timeline. I also notice that the Sacred Realm does not appear to be spawning demons en-masse like it was stated to have done in OoT and ALttP.

Edited by Raian, 05 October 2008 - 02:00 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I believe that the point of OoT's ending was to bring peace to Hyrule in both timelines, and I don't see why the Sages should have been able to stop Ganondorf in the Child Timeline, but not in the Adult Timeline.

Presumably because Ganondorf never gets to take over Hyrule in the Child Timeline. The sages in theory were able to stop Ganondorf, but the darkness in the temples prevented them from awakening. If they're awakened before the darkness corrupts the temples, this obstacle disappears. Link's conversation with Zelda coupled with sealing off the Door of Time while Ganondorf is inside the Sacred Realm, in my opinion, allows this to happen.

[Raien]

The sages in theory were able to stop Ganondorf, but the darkness in the temples prevented them from awakening.

What about the TP Sages? Clearly they are not Saria, Darunia, Ruto, etc.

[FDL]

When characters talk about a power balance, then the meaning can apply to both sides. For example, if John McCain was expected to win the US Election but fails, then we could say that we overestimated the support for McCain or we underestimated the support for Barack Obama. It doesn't matter whether factors caused Barack's support to increase or Obama's support to decrease; what matters is the expectation of the power balance.

The Sages believed that their power was strong enough to control Ganondorf's evil magic; thus they both underestimated the strength of Ganondorf's evil magic and overestimated their own abilities to contain it.

Yes, but overestimation typically involves taking all the things into one's expectation and yet arriving at the wrong conclusion. In your example, the prediction of who would win the election would involve taking things into account. If the presidential candidate who was expected to win died, that wouldn't be an overestimation when someone else ended up being the president. Even look at the whole thing that happened with Florida with the recount and all that crap. That was not an overestimation.

I believe that the point of OoT's ending was to bring peace to Hyrule in both timelines, and I don't see why the Sages should have been able to stop Ganondorf in the Child Timeline, but not in the Adult Timeline. I also notice that the Sacred Realm does not appear to be spawning demons en-masse like it was stated to have done in OoT and ALttP.

I can think of several ways Ganondorf could have been stopped in the child timeline. And in your theory Ganondorf still had the ToP, even if he didn't know about it, making the difference in timelines even more negligible. Also, the Sacred Realm isn't mentioned in correlation with monsters in TWW either. That's not really proof of anything one way or the other.

Edited by FDL, 05 October 2008 - 02:25 PM.

[Crimson Lego]

The sages in theory were able to stop Ganondorf, but the darkness in the temples prevented them from awakening.

What about the TP Sages? Clearly they are not Saria, Darunia, Ruto, etc.

The TP and OoT Sages are completely non-related. First, the TP Sages were said to have been tutors for the young Princess Zelda. Second, there are 6, not 7.

[Raien]

Yes, but overestimation typically involves taking all the things into one's expectation and yet arriving at the wrong conclusion. In your example, the prediction of who would win the election would involve taking things into account. If the presidential candidate who was expected to win died, that wouldn't be an overestimation when someone else ended up being the president. Even look at the whole thing that happened with Florida with the recount and all that crap. That was not an overestimation.

Your argument only applies to situations where the outcome was genuinely unpredictable, and my argument is that the Sages could have detected the strength of Ganondorf's evil magic if they had not overestimated their own power in capturing him.

The TP and OoT Sages are completely non-related. First, the TP Sages were said to have been tutors for the young Princess Zelda. Second, there are 6, not 7.

Exactly, so why couldn't they have stopped Ganondorf in the Adult Timeline?

[FDL]

Yes, but overestimation typically involves taking all the things into one's expectation and yet arriving at the wrong conclusion. In your example, the prediction of who would win the election would involve taking things into account. If the presidential candidate who was expected to win died, that wouldn't be an overestimation when someone else ended up being the president. Even look at the whole thing that happened with Florida with the recount and all that crap. That was not an overestimation.

Your argument only applies to situations where the outcome was genuinely unpredictable, and my argument is that the Sages could have detected the strength of Ganondorf's evil magic if they had not overestimated their own power in capturing him.

Maybe. As I said, we have no reason to believe they can do that, but also have no reason to believe they can't as far as I know.

EDIT: I mean, have we ever seen a Dragon Ball-esque "magic level" thing? I don't think there's any indication that one can tell if a person has the Triforce just on the basis of being a magic user. Which is why I say I believe their overestimation may involve something different than what you claim happened. Whatever, I guess this isn't something that can be unequivocally proven or disproven.

Edited by FDL, 05 October 2008 - 05:29 PM.

[Raien]

Maybe. As I said, we have no reason to believe they can do that, but also have no reason to believe they can't, as far as I know.

The question in this case is how do we determine the limits of the Sages' powers? The personal impression I got from the games is that the Sages are a jack-of-all-trades only limited by the scale of what they are trying to achieve. Sealing Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm might use the most of their power, so I find it difficult to believe that detecting a Triforce piece would actually be harder than that.

[FDL]

They are supposed to be extremely powerful, but it just seems like being capable of doing one thing doesn't necessarily make a person capable of another, unrelated thing. Midna had to be told that Zant had a power that wasn't the same as her own clan's after all.

Edited by FDL, 05 October 2008 - 05:32 PM.

[Raien]

They are supposed to be extremely powerful, but it just seems like being capable of doing one thing doesn't necessarily make a person capable of another, unrelated thing. Midna had to be told that Zant had a power that wasn't the same as her own clan's after all.

Certainly the nature of magic (i.e. good/evil) can affect what that magic is capable of. And of course certain magical properties are tied to the source of that magic (like the Sacred Realm is tied to the Triforce). But does any of this really affect the Sages? I don't think the restrictions in other examples really apply to the Sages unless we know those restrictions exist.

[FDL]

I just brought up Midna as an example because she's also known as an extremely powerful magic wielder. But wouldn't you say the Sages having such a power and choosing not to use it would fall under an "invisible event", such as what you accused me of? Not to mention the whole "intent" argument that people love to get into around here. And unlike the "Divine Prank" stuff, this really has nothing for or against it, aside from the aforementioned "Do's and Don'ts of timeline theorizing". Not to be accusatory, I'm just a little confused.

Edited by FDL, 05 October 2008 - 06:11 PM.