1600 replies to this topic

[FDL]

I have a question, one that jacen may be able to answer since he can read the original version. What was the Skull Kid talking about when he says "This guy...well, that shouldn't be a problem" or whatever?

[Duke Serkol]

Why have him assaulted in the forest at all?

Could be to better lead up to the scene in which Link gets robbed at the start.

And why doesn?t he seem to belong in Termina (he has no house, no friends, and no intent to stay)?

That is a good point. But surely, the area we see in the game is not all there is to the world of Termina. And we never see what land the Garo originally came from.

I'm not sure I get you, here. I don't really consider the Skull Kids you can fight in adult OoT to be the Skull Kid from MM.

Oh, I wasn't trying to draw a connection to them. Just saying that Link gets robbed while still in the world of Hyrule (although, apparently, already outside the kingdom of Hyrule)

And as for the Mask Salesman, well that's just another assumption you have to make. If he was the salesman from OoT, it would make perfect sense for him to appear in MM as he is a traveling man.

Was that in any way implied in OoT? That the Mask Salesman was a traveling man, I mean? Or am I the one misunderstanding now?

And what about the wind mill man, for example? It's not like he's the only Hylian that looks like that.

He doesn't have yellow skin, just squinty eyes. And that's simply because he's made to look so damn happy ^-^

Yeah, that's one of the reasons why you would expect Majora's Mask to be from Termina. However, it still doesn't appear in any of the legends told in the land, and that's something I would expect when dealing with an item of that power.

Would that be to be expected even if it had been sealed away and the the two civilization that dealt with it directly were utterly wiped out?

I think that's a pretty big stretch, honestly.

Feel free. I'm not trying to make anybody into believers of my theories.

I could say it was the salesman was who awakened the mask, and that it took his form for that reason.

But the mask did not posses him. It was only carried around until Skull Kid put it on. So that would be a rather faint connection.

I admit this part of your theory is sound. It would explain why the Mask Salesman knew where to find the mask, although then it doesn?t make sense that he does not know Majora?s true power.

Thanks. But does he not? He is the one that tells us all we know about it.

I agree the Stone Tower might have been built by the enemies of the Ikanians (though it's also the shrine of one of the giants...) I don't think it was the Garo however, because they were supposed to be scouts sent to spy on the enemy, and they wouldn't build something of that magnitude.

Well we only find Garos in it (other than monsters which are beast-like in intelligence), the Garo Master in particular. And seeing as the Ikanians apparently could never really take it over and the Garo were their last enemy...
In any case, like I said I agree the Garo are some sort of ninja scouts, so yeah, it would more likely have been built by other ranks of the tribe they belonged to. I just refer to Garos because that's all we got to know about the enemy (I could call them the Tekis, if you'd like).

Uh, well, except that statue really doesn't look like Majora at all.

Have you looked at it while the tower is upside down? If you have and still can't see the resemblance, I can't do much about it. Or are you thinking about the entrance itself (the big head with a hand pointing up)? I didn't mean that. I meant inside the first room.

that might be because the King of Ikana had no way of knowing what happened outside of his castle.

You mean because he was dead and not undead at the time? I suppose that could be true.

DS: That's a pretty good/interesting theory.

Thankees!


Say Jacen... the way Garo is spelled in Japanese, does it mean long fanged wolf? Or is it just a similar sound?

Edited by Duke Serkol, 16 October 2008 - 08:16 PM.

[jacensolo06]

I have a question, one that jacen may be able to answer since he can read the original version. What was the Skull Kid talking about when he says "This guy...well, that shouldn't be a problem" or whatever?

He just notices something about Link and then dismisses it as unimportant. Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine.

Say Jacen... the way Garo is spelled in Japanese, does it mean long fanged wolf? Or is it just a similar sound?

Fanged Wolf in Japanese would be 牙狼 which is pronounced "Garou". So it isn't quite the same.

And the passage talking about the Garo:

その絵に キョウミがあるのか？ そいつは、忍者のゴーストで 学名を ガロ・ローブと いうのであ～る
Are you interested in that picture? It is of one of the ninja ghosts techincally known as Garo Robes.
Are you curious about that picture? That is the ghost of a ninja. Its scientific name is Garo Robe.

もともとは、イカーナ城を さぐりに来た テキ国のスパイの なれのはて・・・ 生きていた時の ことが忘れられず 今もなお、魂だけが スパイ活動を 続けてるらしい・・・
They are the ruin of what originally were spies of an enemy nation who came to spy on Ikana Castle? They have not forgotten the time when they were alive. Even now that they are only spirits, they still seem to be continuing their espionage?
They are merely shells that are empty on the inside. They're the shells of spies from an enemy nation sent to investigate Ikana. They have been unable to forget their living days. Even now their spirits--emptiness cloaked in darkness--continue to spy.

ウワサじゃ、そのガロが 町向こうの 牧場あたりに 出没するらしいけどね
There are rumors that those Garo have been appearing frequently near the farm on the other side of the town.
According to rumor, those Garos frequently appear near the ranch on the far side of town.

なれのはて といっても ガロは、忍者のはず 人前に 姿は あらわさない
Even though they are a ruin of what they once were, the Garo are ninja so they don?t appear before people.
Although they are said to be shells, Garos are still ninja and they will not show themselves in front of people.

なのに それが、牧場で よく目撃されるなんて・・・ヘンな はなしだ
And yet people are seeing them at that farm?It?s strange.
Yet there are many sightings near the ranch...That's strange.

Note:
Because "teki" is written in katakana, "tekikoku" could be interpreted as "Teki Country". However, "teki" is Japanese for "enemy" and "tekikoku" is a common term meaning "enemy nation".

[FDL]

I have a question, one that jacen may be able to answer since he can read the original version. What was the Skull Kid talking about when he says "This guy...well, that shouldn't be a problem" or whatever?

He just notices something about Link and then dismisses it as unimportant. Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine.

I see. I'm wondering whether that was intended to be a reference to how Skull Kid may have met Link before(depending on whether or not he's supposed to be one of the OoT Skull Kids) or if he was just noticing Link has a sword.

[Hero of Legend]

Could be to better lead up to the scene in which Link gets robbed at the start.

Yes, but we know the Skull Kid returned to Termina and caused trouble before meeting with Link, so it doesn't really lead into anything.

That is a good point. But surely, the area we see in the game is not all there is to the world of Termina. And we never see what land the Garo originally came from.

I don't think there is a lot more to Termina. It's the "Four World" (Swamp, Mountain, Ocean, Canyon) after all.

Was that in any way implied in OoT? That the Mask Salesman was a traveling man, I mean? Or am I the one misunderstanding now?

Well he says he's a traveler in MM, and if he is the same salesman, it is no great surprise that he was on his way through the lost woods when the Skull Kid found him.

Would that be to be expected even if it had been sealed away and the the two civilization that dealt with it directly were utterly wiped out?

Yeah, I think so. If the catastrophe was anything like it was in MM, Ikana wouldn't be the only part of Termina that was affected. In fact I'm having trouble figuring out how any of the Terminians were supposed to have vanquished Majora - not even their gods could take him on. And finally, you'd figure the King would have said something about Majora if he had something to do with it the mask in the past, but he doesn't (like I said, he blames himself for the kingdom?s ruined state).

But the mask did not posses him. It was only carried around until Skull Kid put it on. So that would be a rather faint connection.

Yeah, I can?t claim to know why that is. There just a plethora of possibilities.

Thanks. But does he not? He is the one that tells us all we know about it.

What power does the mask hold? The race spoken of in the legend was destroyed, so we do not know.

So you're saying he's lying? If we take what he says to be true, then he just denied having anything to do with mask and it?s past and that he?s simply reciting the legend surrounding it without any real knowledge of its power.

Well we only find Garos in it (other than monsters which are beast-like in intelligence), the Garo Master in particular. And seeing as the Ikanians apparently could never really take it over and the Garo were their last enemy...
In any case, like I said I agree the Garo are some sort of ninja scouts, so yeah, it would more likely have been built by other ranks of the tribe they belonged to. I just refer to Garos because that's all we got to know about the enemy (I could call them the Tekis, if you'd like).

I think the Garo simply infiltrated the temple. Maybe they held it against the Ikanians. However, I'm certain it was built by the same people who built the other temples. After all, why would the Stone Tower be different?

Have you looked at it while the tower is upside down? If you have and still can't see the resemblance, I can't do much about it. Or are you thinking about the entrance itself (the big head with a hand pointing up)? I didn't mean that. I meant inside the first room.

I don't need to look at it upside down to tell that's not Majora.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 October 2008 - 11:57 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

"tekikoku" is a common term meaning "enemy nation".

Ah, so that explains it. Someone better notify Jumbie then

but we know the Skull Kid returned to Termina and caused trouble before meeting with Link, so it doesn't really lead into anything.

Yeah, no matter how we cut it, the Skull Kid has been doing a lot of dimension hopping before the start of the game. He learned Saria's song apparently (or at least that seems to be implied by the ending) so he has been to Hyrule before (possibly spent there most of his time since the giants kicked him out?), but he meets the fairies in Termina field, then (after stealing Majora's Mask) robs Link in the world of Hyrule.
And we better stop at that, without going into Jumbie's controversy about time going faster in Termina so the Skull Kid could cause troubles Tatl doesn't know about, allowing Tael to learn about the giants in the process >_<

If the catastrophe was anything like it was in MM, Ikana wouldn't be the only part of Termina that was affected.

If it was, there probably wouldn't be a Termina to save. Which is why I would assume it was something of a lesser scale.

In fact I'm having trouble figuring out how any of the Terminians were supposed to have vanquished Majora - not even their gods could take him on.

They didn't, they only sealed it with its power intact.

And finally, you'd figure the King would have said something about Majora if he had something to do with it the mask in the past, but he doesn't (like I said, he blames himself for the kingdom?s ruined state).

Could be true. But if he had started the war that ultimately led to the destruction of his kingdom ("accumulating quarrels" as the cause), he would blame himself regardless of what he was up against.

What power does the mask hold? The race spoken of in the legend was destroyed, so we do not know.

So you're saying he's lying? If we take what he says to be true, then he just denied having anything to do with mask and it?s past and that he?s simply reciting the legend surrounding it without any real knowledge of its power.

Ah I misunderstood you. I thought you meant he didn't know the mask would cause a catastrophe. Seeing as he told us, I couldn't figure out what you meant. Well, at any rate, he could not know it was his race that created the mask. If there were only a few survivors and knowledge of those events was (perhaps deliberately) forgotten, that could be possible.

I think the Garo simply infiltrated the temple. Maybe they held it against the Ikanians. However, I'm certain it was built by the same people who built the other temples. After all, why would the Stone Tower be different?

I wouldn't know. Maybe the enemy nation was just on the other side of the mountain and back when the four temples were built they were not enemies. Then again, typically temples aren't also "impregnable places" that an army cannot fell. So it is atypical either way.
Besides, by your same logic about the King not mentioning Majora, wouldn't he mention it if the tower had been a sacred place of theirs that had been taken by the enemy (and that they failed to recapture)?

I don't need to look at it upside down to tell that's not Majora.

Personally I see a very big resemblance, even though the structure is clearly worn down and damaged. The eyes are there and most of the spikes as well, the two on the top forming the door's archway. Sure, it doesn't form a heart shape, but nonetheless, considering that we are to turn the temple upside down, I really think this was meant to make us go "ZOMG Majora!"

[jacensolo06]

Personally I see a very big resemblance, even though the structure is clearly worn down and damaged. The eyes are there and most of the spikes as well, the two on the top forming the door's archway. Sure, it doesn't form a heart shape, but nonetheless, considering that we are to turn the temple upside down, I really think this was meant to make us go "ZOMG Majora!"

I just checked it out on my version of MM. It definitely resembles Majora. There are some differences, but it's similar enough that I would say that it was probably intentional.

Translations of calling the giants through the ending are almost done, so I should have them up later tonight.

Edit: And here it is:

と・・・止まったわ
It? It stopped.
It...It stopped.

やった、止まったのよ！
All right, it stopped!
We did it! It stopped!

ネエちゃーん！！
Big Sis!!
Sis!!!

トレイル！！
Trail!!
Tael!!!

よかった 間に合った 巨人たちの 叫びが スタルキッドに きいたのね
Thank goodness we made it in time. The giants? shout worked on Stalkid.
Good...We made it in time. The giants' call worked on the Skull Kid.

ちょっと スタルキッド！ アンタ 何しようとしてたのか わかってんの！
Hey, Stalkid! Do you know what you?ve done?!
Hey, Skull Kid! Do you realize what you've been doing to everyone?!?

待ってよ・・・ネエちゃん そんなに・・・スタルキッドを・・・せめないで
Wait? Big Sis. Don?t?blame Stalkid?so much.
Wait...Sis...Don't... Don't be so hard on the Skull Kid.

トレイル！ なに かばってるのよ！ あんなに バンバン ぶたれて アンタ くやしくないの？
Trail! Why are you protecting him! Don?t you care that he hit you that much?
Tael! Why are you protecting him! Aren't you mad at him for hitting you so much?

さびしかったんだよ・・・・・・・スタルキッド
He was lonely??Stalkid was.
He was lonely......the Skull Kid.

世界を 滅ぼそうとしたのよ！ だだっこの レベルじゃないわ！ 許せないわよ！！
He was about to destroy the world! That?s not something a spoiled child does! It?s unforgivable!!
He was trying to destroy everything around him! That is not the same as a lonely child! We can't allow that!

仮面の力が そうさせたんだ スタルキッドが 使うには あまりにも 大きすぎたんだよ
The mask?s power did that to him. It was way too much for Stalkid to use.
The power of the mask made him do it. It was too much for the Skull Kid to handle.

身のほどを 知らないからよ 気がちっちゃい クセに ・・・・バカなんだから モウ！
It?s because he doesn?t know his place. It?s because he?s timid?and because he?s an idiot. Geez!
It's 'cause he doesn't know his place! On top of having a weak will and no strength of heart...he's a fool!

確かに 力を使うには 荷が 大きすぎた ようだ・・・
Yes, it seems there really was too much baggage to use this power?
Certainly, he had far too many weaknesses to use my power.

そうよ バカを認めなさい！ ・・・え？
That?s right. Admit you were an idiot! ?Eh?[/color]
Yeah! That's right! Admit your stupidity! ...Huh?

使えない道具は タダの ゴミでしかない
An unusable tool must be treated as mere trash.
A puppet that can no longer be used is mere garbage.

この者の 役わりは もう 終わった・・・
His role is over?
This puppet's role has just ended...

まさか！ じゃあ、あの月は？
It can?t be! Then, the moon is??
It can't be! Then that moon?

オ、オデは・・・食う ぜ、ぜんぶ・・・食う
I-I shall?consume. C-consume?everything.
I...I shall consume. Consume...Consume everything.

わああああ もうダメ・・・はやく アンタ 時の歌よ 時の歌！
Waaaah! It?s over? Hurry, Song of Time, Song of Time!
Waahhhhh! This isn't good! Let's go back! Let's go back! Hurry! The Song of Time! The Song of Time!!!

まさか あそこに行くって いうんじゃ ないでしょうね・・・
You couldn?t be saying you?re thinking of going there?
Aw, no.... You've got to be kidding. Don't tell me you're going up there...

私は イヤよ！！ アンタ 一人で 行きなさい トレイルといっしょにココに残るわ
I won?t!! Go by yourself. I?ll stay here with Trail.
I won't do it! You go by yourself! I'm staying here with Tael.

ボクが 行く！！
I?ll go!!
I'll go!!!

何いってるの トレイル！ どうか しちゃったの？
What are you saying Trail! Is something wrong with you?
What?! What are you saying, Tael? Is something wrong with you?

ボク もう、逃げてばっかりは イヤなんだ！ ボクがしっかりしていれば スタルキッドだって・・・・
I don?t want to run away anymore! If I had been reliable, Stalkid wouldn?t have?
I don't always want to be running away! If only I had been stronger, the Skull Kid wouldn't have...

わかったわ 私が行くわ！
I understand. I?ll go!
I understand. I'll go!

しばらく見ないうちに ダレかみたいに ナマイキな ことを 言うようになったわね
In the short time I haven?t seen you, you?ve become impertinent like someone else I know.
After all this time, Tael, you've gotten really stubborn... Just like someone else I know...

ホントに アンタたちは バカなんだから・・・
You two really are idiots?
You know, you guys are really stupid...

Splitting post due to too many quotes.

Edited by jacensolo06, 17 October 2008 - 10:04 PM.

[jacensolo06]

These are the quotes that the four kids on the moon share:

・・・・やあ・・・いい天気・・・だね
…Hey…Nice weather…isn’t it?
...Ahhh...Nice weather...Isn't it?

たくさん・・・お面・・持ってるね キミも・・・お面屋に・・なるの？
You have…a lot of…masks. Will you become…mask salesman…too?
Masks...You have...a lot. You, too...Will you be... a mask salesman?

ねえ、あそんでやるから・・・お面・・・ちょうだい
Hey, let’s play, so… Give me…masks.
Then I'll play with you. So...The masks...Give me some...

ありがと・・・キミ・・・いいヒト・・・だね
Thanks…You’re…a nice…guy.
Thanks...You...You're nice person...Aren't you?

かくれんぼ・・・しよう・・・ボク・・・かくれる・・・から
Let’s play…hide and seek…I’ll…hide…so…
Hide-and-seek...Let's play. All right...I'll...hide...

・・・みつかっちゃった・・・
…You found me…
...You found me...

ねえ・・・お面・・・もっと・・・ほしい
Hey…I want…more…masks.
Hey...I want...more...masks...

へへ・・・ありがとう・・・キミ・・・やさしいね
Heh heh…Thanks…You’re…nice.
Heh, heh...Thanks...You're...nice.

ねえ・・・聞いて・・・いい？
Hey…Can I…talk with you?
Umm...Can I ask...a question?

And the questions they ask you:

キミの 友だち は・・・どんな・・・ひと？
You’re friends…What kind of people…are they?
Your friends...What kind of...people are they?

そのひとは・・・キミのことを・・・友だちと 思ってるのかな・・・
Those people…I wonder if they think of you…as a friend, too…
I wonder...Do those people...think of you...as a friend?

キミの しあわせって どんな・・・こと？
What makes you happy…What… is it?
You...What makes you...happy?

キミの しあわせは・・・ほかのひとも・・・しあわせ なのかな・・・
What makes you happy…I wonder if it makes…other people happy, too…
I wonder...What makes you happy...Does it make...others happy, too?

正しいことって・・・どんな・・・こと？
The right thing…What…is it?
The right thing...What is it?

正しいことすると・・・本当に みんな・・・よろこぶのかな・・・
If you do the right thing…I wonder if it will really…make everyone happy…
I wonder...If you do the right thing...Does it really make...everybody...happy?

キミの・・・本当の顔は・・・どんな・・・顔？
Your…true face…What kind of face…is it?
Your true face...What kind of...face is it?

お面の・・・・下の顔が 本当の顔・・・なのかな・・・
The face…under the mask…I wonder if that’s…your true face…
I wonder...The face under the mask...Is that...your true face?

And the Majora's Mask Kid:

・・・だれも いなくなったな
…Everyone’s gone.
...Everyone has gone away, haven't they?

オレと・・・あそぶ か？
Will you…play with me?
Will you play...with me?

オマエ もう、お面 ないんだな・・・
You don’t have any more masks…
You don't have any masks left, do you?

じゃあ、別のあそびを しよう
Then, let’s play something else.
Well, let's do something else.

オニごっこ・・・か、いいな そうだ、それがいい
How about…tag. Yeah, that’ll work.
Let's play good guys against bad guys...Yes. Let's play that.

鬼神の仮面を もらった オニが かぶる オニのお面？ [C]でかぶってみよう
You got the Kishin Mask. Is it an oni mask that an oni wears? Try it on with [C].
You got the Fierce Deity's Mask! Could this mask's dark powers be as bad as Majora? Try it on with ©.

いいか・・・オマエが オニだ オニは 逃げるだけだ それでも いいよな
Good…You’re the oni. The oni just runs away. Even so, that’s fine.
Are you ready? You're the bad guy. And when you're bad, you just run. That's fine, right?

じゃあ
Well…
Well...

いこうか
Shall we go?
Shall we play?

Note:
-In Japan, the one who is "it" in a game of tag is called the "oni". In fact the name of the game means "pretending to be an oni". An oni is a type of demon in Japanese mythology. More specific information can be found here: http://en.wikipedia..../Oni_(folklore).
-Skull Kid is called a "little oni" throughout the game. I've been translating it as "little demon".
-The kanji for Kishin literally mean "Oni God". It translates to "Fierce God".
-I'm pretty sure I've seen it said before that the Japanese name of Majora's Wrath (ムジュラの魔人) means "Mujura's Sorceror" or something like that. It could mean that, but it could also mean "Mujura's Demon". Personally, I find "Demon" more likely what was intended, but it could mean either.

I don't feel like finishing the ending yet, so I'll finish and post it tomorrow.

Edited by jacensolo06, 17 October 2008 - 10:21 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

If it was, there probably wouldn't be a Termina to save. Which is why I would assume it was something of a lesser scale.

I suppose that's a necessary assumption.

They didn't, they only sealed it with its power intact.

I don't really see the difference. The giants couldn't even stop the moon, and I doubt the Ikanians would be able to seal Majora himself.

Could be true. But if he had started the war that ultimately led to the destruction of his kingdom ("accumulating quarrels" as the cause), he would blame himself regardless of what he was up against.

But Majora was never used as a weapon of war. Supposedly it even destroyed the race that created it, and you can't honestly expect the King to blame himself for some world-devouring demon's mad schemes.

Ah I misunderstood you. I thought you meant he didn't know the mask would cause a catastrophe. Seeing as he told us, I couldn't figure out what you meant. Well, at any rate, he could not know it was his race that created the mask. If there were only a few survivors and knowledge of those events was (perhaps deliberately) forgotten, that could be possible.

I suppose that's possible.

I wouldn't know. Maybe the enemy nation was just on the other side of the mountain and back when the four temples were built they were not enemies. Then again, typically temples aren't also "impregnable places" that an army cannot fell. So it is atypical either way.

Well, everyone was said to live as one people in the beginning - of course, that's assuming the Garo are even from Termina.

As for the impregnable temple, well, that's pretty much the case with all of them, no?

Besides, by your same logic about the King not mentioning Majora, wouldn't he mention it if the tower had been a sacred place of theirs that had been taken by the enemy (and that they failed to recapture)?

Maybe they never thought of it as a sacred place. To them, it might just have been another abode of the "enemy." At least, that's from what I can tell. The point is that Stone Tower does not seem to be any different from the other temples - they're all resting places of the giants, and once Majora takes over, they become the source of evil that plauges the land.

Personally I see a very big resemblance, even though the structure is clearly worn down and damaged. The eyes are there and most of the spikes as well, the two on the top forming the door's archway. Sure, it doesn't form a heart shape, but nonetheless, considering that we are to turn the temple upside down, I really think this was meant to make us go "ZOMG Majora!"

Okay, I admit it captures the essence of Majora - it's similar, but not the same - I doubt it's supposed to actually be Majora because all other representations of it are exact (why does the statue have eyebrows, anyway? I can get missing details, but...) and I still don't think it is supposed to single-handedly tell us that Majora was once held in that temple. Where is everything else that would indicate such a thing? No, if anything, I think it's supposed to be a "WTF? Freak-coincidence!" for the player to go along with the whole upside down thing.

And on a related note, jacen, could you translate the Garo Master's speech? Though different from the average Garo, I don't think he ever indicates that his knowledge of the temple arises from anything but his role as a spying ninja.

-I'm pretty sure I've seen it said before that the Japanese name of Majora's Wrath (ムジュラの魔人) means "Mujura's Sorceror" or something like that. It could mean that, but it could also mean "Mujura's Demon". Personally, I find "Demon" more likely what was intended, but it could mean either.

Jumbie and I talked about Majora when we discussed Vaati?s nature as a Majin - He agreed demon was probably the intended meaning. I wonder if Vaati was ever considered a sorcerer in TMC ? it would be funny if NoA?s refusal to name him a demon god would turn out to be correct on at least one occasion.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 18 October 2008 - 06:43 AM.

[Arturo]

-I'm pretty sure I've seen it said before that the Japanese name of Majora's Wrath (ムジュラの魔人) means "Mujura's Sorceror" or something like that. It could mean that, but it could also mean "Mujura's Demon". Personally, I find "Demon" more likely what was intended, but it could mean either.

I don't feel like finishing the ending yet, so I'll finish and post it tomorrow.

Well, in Spanish, he was called "Mago de Majora", which means "Majora's Wizard". It never made too much sense to me, because, ypu know, those annoying spins re not my idea of magic, but that's it seems to be corect, hehe.

[Duke Serkol]

I just checked it out on my version of MM. It definitely resembles Majora. There are some differences, but it's similar enough that I would say that it was probably intentional.

Aye, aye

-I'm pretty sure I've seen it said before that the Japanese name of Majora's Wrath (ムジュラの魔人) means "Mujura's Sorceror" or something like that. It could mean that, but it could also mean "Mujura's Demon". Personally, I find "Demon" more likely what was intended, but it could mean either.

I've been told once that one of Majora's Japanese titles was "magic emperor". Then I was told it was not. So can you list Majora's various titles/description in the three phases of combat against it?

They didn't, they only sealed it with its power intact.

I don't really see the difference.

It's the difference between the endings of OoT and ALttP (which is fueling the whole "light arrows vs silver arrows" debate). The Sages and Link in Oot could not kill a ToP bearing Ganon, only seal him. Link and the maidens managed to off a whole Triforce toting Ganon later on.
I don't know how the Ikanians sealed off Majora. Maybe they did call the giants (as the people did when Skull Kid originally caused trouble) and seeing as whatever Majora was doing apparently it didn't destroy the world, they managed to stop it back then.

Majora was never used as a weapon of war. Supposedly it even destroyed the race that created it

It was used as a cursing tool. And the Ikanians were cursed. That its creators got wiped out also doesn't prove an obstacle to a connection.

you can't honestly expect the King to blame himself for some world-devouring demon's mad schemes.

Not if Majora's curse was unleashed upon his nation because of actions he took (which may have started the war).

Well, everyone was said to live as one people in the beginning - of course, that's assuming the Garo are even from Termina.

Good observation.

As for the impregnable temple, well, that's pretty much the case with all of them, no?

Well, if it wasn't for the Biggoron and murky water, the second and third temples could be reached easily. But this is getting off the point, so I'll concede that yeah, they all are rather inaccessible.

The point is that Stone Tower does not seem to be any different from the other temples - they're all resting places of the giants, and once Majora takes over, they become the source of evil that plauges the land.

Here's something we haven't considered: couldn't the original temple have been cannibalized? You know, kind of like in Arbiter Grounds in which we have what clearly looks like Gerudo foundations below a Roman like arena similar in design to the open theatre ruins next to castle town, and therefore most likely built by the Hylians.

it's similar, but not the same - I doubt it's supposed to actually be Majora because all other representations of it are exact (why does the statue have eyebrows, anyway? I can get missing details, but...) and I still don't think it is supposed to single-handedly tell us that Majora was once held in that temple. Where is everything else that would indicate such a thing? No, if anything, I think it's supposed to be a "WTF? Freak-coincidence!" for the player to go along with the whole upside down thing.

I am not saying that this alone indicates Majora was kept there. But the fact that both the stone tower and Majora's backstories deal with a great curse (which returned when the mask reappeared) added to that representation makes me believe so.
I'm not sure which eyebrows you mean. In painting? The real Majora has a lot of stripes, so it could be that.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 18 October 2008 - 08:26 AM.

[jacensolo06]

So can you list Majora's various titles/description in the three phases of combat against it?

NoA got the first two right:
ムジュラの仮面=Mujura's Mask
ムジュラの化身=Mujura's Incarnation
ムジュラの魔人=Mujura's Demon

And on a related note, jacen, could you translate the Garo Master's speech? Though different from the average Garo, I don't think he ever indicates that his knowledge of the temple arises from anything but his role as a spying ninja.

Here it is:

この私が やられるとは・・・テキながら、見事であった 最後に 我が言葉 心して聞け・・
For me to have been defeated? Even though you are my enemy, that was admirable. In the end, carefully listen to my words?
To think I could be defeated... Although my rival, you were spectacular. I shall take my bow by opening my heart and revealing my wisdom...

聖なる黄金の 輝きを放つモノは 血にそまった 邪悪な 赤いしるしを射ぬき・・・天に大地が、地に月が 生まれる 衝撃をあたえるであろう・・・
If you shoot the blood-dyed evil red mark with that which fires a holy golden radiance? It will provide a shock that will make the earth be born in the heavens and the moon in the land.
If you shoot that which releases the sacred golden light into the blood-stained, red emblem outside the temple... it shall rearrange things, in which the earth is born in the heavens and the moon is born on the earth.

我が言葉 忘れるでないぞ・・・死して シカバネ 残すまじ
Don?t forget my words? I cannot leave behind a corpse when I die.
Do not forget these words...Die I shall, leaving no corpse.

それが 我が ガロたちの おきて
That is the law of us Garo.
That is the law of us Garo.

And I've finished the ending which includes some quotes that Jumbie had already done:

あっ！ 気がついた
Ah! You came to.
Aah! He's awake!

オマエたち・・・オイラのこと 忘れて なかったのか・・・
You guys?didn?t forget about me?
You guys...You hadn't forgotten about me?

まだ、友だちだと 思っていて くれたのか・・・
You still thought of me as a friend?
You still thought of me as a friend?

オマエが 助けてくれたのか・・・？
Are you the one who saved me??
Did you... Did you save me?

アイツら オイラを 相手にしてくれないと 思っていた・・・
I thought they wouldn?t play with me?
I thought they didn't want to be friends with me...

だけど・・・ オイラのこと 忘れていなかった
But? They hadn?t forgotten about me.
But... They hadn't forgotten about me...

友だちって いいよな・・・・へへッ
Having friends sure is nice?Heh heh.
Friends are a nice thing to have...Heh, heh.

オマエも　オイラの友だちに　なってくれるか？
Will you be my friend, too?
Jumbie:Could you be my friend, too?
Could you be my friend, too?

ウヒヒッ・・・オマエ　森でオイラに歌を教えてくれた　妖精の子と同じニオイがする
U-hee-hee? You smell the same as the fairy kid that taught me that song in the forest.
Jumbie:Uh-hee-hee? You have the same smell as the fairy kid who taught me that song in the woods.
Eh-hee-hee? You have the same smell as the fairy kid who taught me that song in the woods?

じゃあ、じゃあ、何して 遊ぶ！
Then, then, let?s play something!
Jumbie:I know, I know, let's play something!
I know, I know! Let's do something!

おお、やはり 仮面から 邪気が 無くなっている・・・
Oh, as I thought, the evil energy is gone from the mask?
Oh...So the evil has left the mask after all...

たしかに 受け取りましたよ
I really did get it back.
Well, now...I finally have it back.

さて、ワタクシは 旅の途中ですので これで・・・
Now then, I was in the middle of a journey, so I?ll be going?
Since I am in the midst of my travels... I must bid you farewell.

アナタも そろそろ お帰りになられたほうが よろしいのでは・・・？
Shouldn?t you be going back home soon, too??
Shouldn't you be returning home as well?

出会いがあれば 必ず 別れは 訪れるもの ですが、その別れは 永遠では ないはず・・・別れが 永遠になるか 一時になるか・・・それは アナタしだい
When you meet, a parting will surely come, but that parting doesn?t have to last forever? The parting could last forever or only a short time? It?s up to you.
Whenever there is a meeting, a parting is sure to follow. However, that parting need not last forever... Whether a parting be forever or merely for a short time... That is up to you.

では、失礼します・・・
Well then, please excuse me?
With that, please excuse me...

おや、アナタ ずいぶん たくさんの人を しあわせに してあげましたね
Oh, you have brought happiness to quite a few people.
...But, my, you sure have managed to make quite a number of people happy.

アナタの持っている お面には しあわせが いっぱい詰まっている これは 実に いい しあわせだ
The mask you have are stuffed full of happiness. That is truly a good happiness.
The masks you have are filled with happiness. This is truly a good happiness.

おたがい目標は　達成したんだしアンタとは、ここでお別れね！
We?ve both achieved our objectives, so this is where we part!
Jumbie:With you having achieved the goals of both of us, this is farewell here, isn't it!
Well, both of us have gotten what we were after... So this is where you and I part ways, isn't it?

まあまあ、楽しかったわよ
Well, it was fun.
Jumbie:Oh well, it was fun, and stuff.
You know?it was kind of fun.

さあ、そろそろ　カーニバルが　はじまる時間だわ
C?mon, it?s almost time for the Carnival to begin.
Jumbie:Come on, it's almost time for the carnival to begin?
Well?it's almost time for the carnival to begin?

さっさと行ったら？
Do you think you could hurry up and go?
Jumbie:If you could just quickly be off?
So, why don't you just leave and go about your business? The rest of us have a carnival to go to.

リンク！ありがとう
Link! Thank you.
Jumbie:Link! Thank you.
Link! ...Thank you.

Well, that's all I was planning on doing from MM. If you want anything else translated, just ask.

[Hero of Legend]

It's the difference between the endings of OoT and ALttP (which is fueling the whole "light arrows vs silver arrows" debate). The Sages and Link in Oot could not kill a ToP bearing Ganon, only seal him. Link and the maidens managed to off a whole Triforce toting Ganon later on.
I don't know how the Ikanians sealed off Majora. Maybe they did call the giants (as the people did when Skull Kid originally caused trouble) and seeing as whatever Majora was doing apparently it didn't destroy the world, they managed to stop it back then.

Well that's a bit of circular logic, don't you think? I guess it?s fine as long as you don?t treat it as evidence, though.

It was used as a cursing tool. And the Ikanians were cursed. That its creators got wiped out also doesn't prove an obstacle to a connection.

Not if Majora's curse was unleashed upon his nation because of actions he took (which may have started the war).

Right. However, I can't find any evidence of this curse that you are talking about. Sure, Ikana is said to be a cursed land, but why? Apparently because "Ikana Kingdom was founded on this land, stained with a history of darkness, drenched in blood... Even now it is a place where troubled, regretful spirits gather."

Founded, huh? I guess that explains why they wanted to invade the Stone Tower. His story also sounds a lot like the Shadow Temple in OoT. At any rate, Majora doesn't seem to play any part in why the land is haunted by the dead. What's more, by defeating Twinmold, Link broke the curse. How would that work if was the same curse that Majora created in ancient times? It makes no sense.

PS. Jacen, does it say what kind of curses Majora's Mask was used for? The Skull Kid used the mask to curse Link right of the bat, so I assume that's the kind of ritual it was used for.

I guess we could look at a translation of what the spirit guarding the entrance to Ikana has to say, as well.

About the ending: Hmm... Isn't it strange how both Majora and the Skull Kid want to play with Link? I really don't think you can deny that there was supposed to be a correlation here.

[Lexxi Aileron]

About the ending: Hmm... Isn't it strange how both Majora and the Skull Kid want to play with Link? I really don't think you can deny that there was supposed to be a correlation here.

Presumably during the time the Skull Kid had Majora's face, it took on some of his traits, and vice-versa. Skull Kid becomes mean; Majora becomes playful.

[jacensolo06]

PS. Jacen, does it say what kind of curses Majora's Mask was used for? The Skull Kid used the mask to curse Link right of the bat, so I assume that's the kind of ritual it was used for.

Unfortunately, no it does not.

I guess we could look at a translation of what the spirit guarding the entrance to Ikana has to say, as well.

Here's when you talk to him with the Garo mask on:

イーッヒッヒ お前さん いいお面をつけてるねえ.
Ee hee hee. You?ve got a nice mask on.
Yee-hee-hee. That's a nice mask you're wearing.

それは 血塗られた歴史を持つ 丘の上の城で 隠密活動をしていた 忍者の首領の お面だな
That is the mask of the leader of the ninja that were spying on the castle on the hilltop that has a bloodstained history.
That is the mask of the leader of the ninjas who once spied on the hilltop castle with the blood-stained history.

そいつで 今もなお さまよう ヤツラの魂を 呼び出せるかも しれないな・・・お前さん この先で さまよう魂を 救ってやって おくれ イーッヒッヒッ
With that, you might be able to call out their spirits that are still wandering? You might be able to save the wandering souls ahead. Ee hee hee.
With that, you may be able to call out their spirits that even now are still wandering. Perhaps you may be able to save the souls that wander beyond here... Yee-hee-hee.

Right. However, I can't find any evidence of this curse that you are talking about. Sure, Ikana is said to be a cursed land, but why? Apparently because "Ikana Kingdom was founded on this land, stained with a history of darkness, drenched in blood... Even now it is a place where troubled, regretful spirits gather."

Here's the Japanese version of that quote:

イーッヒッヒ この地方にあった イカーナ王国は 血塗られた 闇の歴史を持ち 今も、この世に 恨みや みれん を持った魂が 集まりし ところ・・・
Ee hee hee. The Ikana Kingdom that was in this area had a bloodstained history of darkness. Even now souls that possessed malice and regret gather here in this world?
Eee-hee-hee... Ikana Kingdom was founded on this land, stained with a history of darkness, drenched in blood... Even now it is a place where troubled, regretful spirits gather.

[Duke Serkol]

I can't find any evidence of this curse that you are talking about. Sure, Ikana is said to be a cursed land, but why?

I don't remember when in the game it was said (besides what the King tells us), but I recall someone telling us that the war ending with a curse that turned both parts of the conflict into wandering undeads, and that the curse was halted only when the doors of Stone Tower were sealed shut. Then when someone opened them the curse begun to take effect again.
Maybe it was Sharp. Or that guy you have to uncurse in the weird house.

At any rate, Majora doesn't seem to play any part in why the land is haunted by the dead. What's more, by defeating Twinmold, Link broke the curse. How would that work if was the same curse that Majora created in ancient times? It makes no sense.

I thought it was pretty obvious that a direct connection exists between the four bosses and Majora (Twinmold especially seeing as we fight it amidst tall pillars covered in Majora representations), after all, their masks appear as Majora's cohorts in the moon.
If anything that would strenghten my point.
And yeah, Majora is not mentioned in Ikana's backstory. If it was, mine wouldn't be a theory but solid facts

[jacensolo06]

I don't remember when in the game it was said (besides what the King tells us), but I recall someone telling us that the war ending with a curse that turned both parts of the conflict into wandering undeads, and that the curse was halted only when the doors of Stone Tower were sealed shut. Then when someone opened them the curse begun to take effect again.
Maybe it was Sharp. Or that guy you have to uncurse in the weird house.

Sharp says this about the curse:

我ら 死した者は この地に よみがえっては ならぬはず それを狂わせたのは 全ては 仮面をつけた者の 策略である
Us dead ones shouldn't be revived to this world. It was thrown out of order all due to the scheme of the one who wears a mask.
We dead should not be lingering here in this land. It was all a trick of the masked one who had upset things.

お前が ほんとうに 死者を恐れぬなら この地の 神殿におもむき 我らを 苦しめる呪いの根源を 断って欲しい
If you truly do not fear the dead, I would like you to go to the temple in this land and sever the source of the curse that is tormenting us.
If you truly do not fear the dead... I wish for you to go to the temple in this land and sever the root of the evil curse that torments us.

He puts the blame entirely on Skull Kid, so it doesn't seem that this was some ancient curse that was revived or anything.

[CID Farwin]

DS might be thinking of what Cap'n Keeta says.

I have no idea what it is, though.

And thanks jacen! MM rocks.

[jacensolo06]

This is what Keeta says:

待て！ 私の 負けだ！ 武器を しまわれよ・・・
Wait! It is my loss! Put away your weapon?
Wait! It is my loss! Sheathe your weapon...

私は 丘の上のイカーナ王国で イカーナ軍を指揮していた スタル・キータ と申す者
I commanded the Ikana Army of the Ikana Kingdom on the hilltop. I am called Stal Keeta.
I commanded the Ikana Army of Ikana Kingdom atop the hill. I am called Skull Keeta.

王国で起きた戦いに敗れ 屍となってからも 我が魂を 呼び起こしてくれる者が訪れるのを ここで 待ち続けていた
I was defeated in a battle that occurred in the kingdom and became a corpse. I have continued to wait for the visit of one who would wake my soul.
Since being shamed by loss in a battle within my kingdom... I have waited here for one to come and awaken my soul.

私を呼び起こし 見事うち倒した 若き剣士よ そなたの力を見込んで 頼みがある
Oh, young swordsman who woke me and splendidly defeated me. I have a request that I believe you can carry out with your power.
Young swordsman who has awakened and deftly defeated me...I shall rely on your power to fulfill my request.

燃えさかる 炎の中にある 我が魂を 手にし 死してなお 私への忠誠を つらぬき通す 我が部下たちに 私の言葉を 伝えて欲しい
I would like for you take my soul from within the burning flame and convey my words to my subordinates who even now that they are dead must be loyal to me.
I ask you to take my soul, which rests in the fiercely burning flame... And convey my words to my men, who, even in death, remain loyal to me.

もう、戦いは終わったのだと・・・
Tell them that the battle is over?
Tell them the war has ended...

これで、私は 安らかな眠りに つくことができる・・・
Now I can rest in peaceful sleep?
Then I shall be able to drift quietly into sleep...

Unfortunately, he doesn't say anything about the curse.

[Hero of Legend]

Here's the Japanese version of that quote:

It's interesting how it seems spirits from all over the world gather in Ikana. Well, if they do have lingering regrets, I guess no one can force them to go on into the afterlife.

I don't remember when in the game it was said (besides what the King tells us), but I recall someone telling us that the war ending with a curse that turned both parts of the conflict into wandering undeads, and that the curse was halted only when the doors of Stone Tower were sealed shut. Then when someone opened them the curse begun to take effect again.
Maybe it was Sharp. Or that guy you have to uncurse in the weird house.

I searched the text dump and I can't find anything like that. It is said however, that even though Link saved the wandering spirits of Ikana, there are still many others remaining in the world. So really, there doesn't seem to be any connection between the curse that tormented the spirits and turned them malignant, and the fact that they roam the world. And of course there?s still no indication that the curse itself extends beyond the Skull Kid's arrival to Ikana.

I thought it was pretty obvious that a direct connection exists between the four bosses and Majora (Twinmold especially seeing as we fight it amidst tall pillars covered in Majora representations), after all, their masks appear as Majora's cohorts in the moon.
If anything that would strenghten my point.

That's probably because, like I said before, Majora/the Skull Kid created those monsters. The monsters themselves are not ancient, because the giants were only recently sealed within their masks. Hence why it doesn?t make sense if Majora?s own supposedly ancient curse was destroyed when Link defeated his servant.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 19 October 2008 - 07:18 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

That's probably because, like I said before, Majora/the Skull Kid created those monsters. The monsters themselves are not ancient, because the giants were only recently sealed within their masks. Hence why it doesn?t make sense if Majora?s own supposedly ancient curse was destroyed when Link defeated his servant.

It could if Majora created Twinmold as a mean to sustain the curse. Kind of like how Ganondorf has Zora's domain frozen through Morpha.

But hey, it seems I remembered wrong about the stone tower's doors, so I'll stand down.

[FDL]

I have a request for jacen if it's not too much trouble. How about the rest of the quotes from Sharp and Flat? Could you please translate those, if it's not too much trouble? I'm particularly interested in whether or not there's any elaboration on the "devil" to which Sharp sold his soul. Thanks in advance.

[jacensolo06]

As requested the Sharp and Flat quotes:

私の魂を解放してくれたのは お前か?
Are you the one who released my soul?
Are you the one who freed my soul?

私は イカーナ王家に 仕えていた 作曲家の フラットと申す者である
I am Flat, a composer who served the Ikana Royal Family.
I served the Ikana Royal family. I am the composer called Flat.

この地に残る 王家ゆかりの曲は 私と兄の シャープが全て 作曲したもの
The songs left in this land were songs related to the Royal Family that were composed by my older brother and me.
The songs connected to the Royal Family that remain here were all composed by my brother and I.

おお・・・シャープ わが いとしき兄よ
Oh…Sharp, my dear older brother.
Oh...Sharp, my dear brother.

悪魔に魂を売り 私を こんな所に閉じ込めた 張本人・・・・
He sold his soul to a demon and is the one who sealed me here…
He sold his soul to the devil and was the one who locked me in here...

死者をおそれぬ者よ 私の後ろに刻まれた曲を よくおぼえてほしい・・・
Oh, one who does not fear the dead. I would like you to learn the song engraved behind me well…
You who do not fear the dead, learn well the song that is inscribed behind me...

そして どこかで兄に会ったら 告げて ほしい
And if you meet my older brother somewhere, I would like you to tell him something.
And if you ever meet my brother, I'd like you to inform him...

わが歌が いざなう 数千の雨粒は 私のナミダ 大地に とどろく カミナリは 私の怒り だと!
Tell him that the thousands of raindrops my song calls are my tears and the thunder that roars on the earth is my anger!
The thousand years of raindrops summoned by my song are my tears. The thunder that strikes the earth is my anger!

・・・たのんだぞ
…I’m counting on you.
...I have made my request.

死者のみの生きる地 イカーナ王国に なんの用だ
What reason do have for being in Ikana Kindom, the land where only the dead exist.
What business have you in Ikana Kingdom, land where only the dead roam?

ここは お前のような 生にみちた者の 来るところではない
This is not a place to which one who is full of life like you should come.
This is no place for one as full of life as you.

それとも、死者の仲間に 入りたいとでも いうのか それも よかろう・・・
Or are you saying that you want to become one of the dead? That is fine…
Or do you say that you wish to join the dead? That is fine...

ならば、この偉大な作曲家 シャープさまの奏でる 暗黒のメロディーで 安らかに眠り 死者の 仲間入りを するがいい
If so, just become one of the dead in peaceful sleep with the dark melody that I, the great composer Sharp, shall play.
If that is the case, then sleep gently to the melody of darkness that the great composer, Sharp, shall play... and join the ranks of the dead.

(Link plays the Song of Storms)

な・・なんだ この曲は?
Wh…what is this song?
W-What is this? ...This song?

・・・・ま、まさか この曲は・・・・
…It couldn’t be. This song is…
...N-No, it can't be. This song...

(Water starts flowing again)

フラットよ わが愛しき 弟よ 死して なお 王家の復活を 夢見た おろかな兄を ゆるしてくれ・・・
Oh, Flat, my beloved younger brother. Please forgive your foolish older brother who dreamed of the restoration of the dead Royal Family.
Flat, my dear brother. Forgive your foolish brother who dreamt of the revival of the Royal Family...

・・・死者を恐れぬ者よ
…Oh, one who does not fear the dead.
...Ye who do not fear the dead...

弟の歌により 私にかけられた 呪いは解けた 全ては、お前の おかげだ
Because of my younger brother’s song, the curse put on me has been removed. It is all thanks to you.
With my brother's song, you have broken the curse that was placed upon me. It is all thanks to you.

我ら 死した者は この地に よみがえっては ならぬはず それを狂わせたのは 全ては 仮面をつけた者の 策略である
Us dead ones shouldn't be revived to this world. It was thrown out of order all due to the scheme of the one who wears a mask.
We dead should not be lingering here in this land. It was all a trick of the masked one who had upset things.

お前が ほんとうに 死者を恐れぬなら この地の 神殿におもむき 我らを 苦しめる呪いの根源を 断って欲しい
If you truly do not fear the dead, I would like you to go to the temple in this land and sever the source of the curse that is tormenting us.
If you truly do not fear the dead... I wish for you to go to the temple in this land and sever the root of the evil curse that torments us.

そのためには・・・
In order to do this…
To do that...

神殿に入る方法を 唯一知っている 我が 王に会うのだ 王は、滅びたイカーナの城で 呪いを解いてくれる者が来るのを 待っておられるはず・・・
I alone know the way to enter the temple. It is to meet with my king. He must be waiting in the ruined Ikana Castle for one to come who will remove the curse from him…
I, the only one who knows the way into the temple, shall direct you to the King. The King is in the ruins of Ikana Castle, awaiting the coming of the one who will break the curse.

・・・たのんだぞ
…I’m counting on you.
...I have made my final request.

Note: Flat says that Sharp sold his soul to "Akuma". This could be translated as "the devil" or "a demon".

[FDL]

Thanks a lot jacen. It's a pity they never go into further detail about the Akuma.

[MikePetersSucks]

It's quite obviously Skull Kid they're talking about; we don't need it.

[FDL]

Is Skull Kid referred to as an Akuma during the rest of the game?

[MikePetersSucks]

Yea, pretty much.

[jacensolo06]

I don't think Skull Kid is referred to as an Akuma anywhere else in the game, but it's pretty obvious he's referring to Skull Kid here. People who do evil things are commonly referred to as demons in Japanese.

[FDL]

Oh, alright, I had thought that it was Skull Kid. But I wasn't sure if it used wording that would make that incompatible. I just wanted to make sure.

[MikePetersSucks]

Skull Kid is called a demon, though, and he's the only one running around lobbing curses in Termina.