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#901 jacensolo06

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 08:27 PM

Considering that Link owes no allegiance to the (usurper) King of Twilight, wouldn't it make more sense for it to be traitor, singular? I ask because I know Japanese can be confusing when it comes to plural.


Traitor has the suffix "domo" that makes it plural. Even though it doesn't entirely make sense, that's what it says.

Interesting wording there... (resurrection TO this world). Makes me wonder if I'm missing something.


That might be a slight mistake on my part. The Japanese could mean either "to" or "in".

Wait... beyond? As in "not in the realm of the death but something that is past even that"?


The Japanese term means "beyond" or "other side".

#902 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 10:58 PM

I was talking about the "whenever disaster waylays the royal family" bit.


Such a line never demanded a hero be descended from any special bloodline though.

But since it's possible for evil to threaten the triforce sometime in the future and start a new cataclysm, the knight's line must prevail against such an eventuality.


Either destiny ordains that only the one instance ever occured, as most prophecies in the Zeldaverse are only relevant once, or new Knights could always start a new clan that would be just as notable and worthy to progeny the Hero.

Traitor has the suffix "domo" that makes it plural. Even though it doesn't entirely make sense, that's what it says.


It's worth bearing in mind that Midna represents the entirety of the Twili race, and is fighting on their behalf. The betrayal of Midna is the betrayal of the whole species.

#903 jacensolo06

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 11:59 PM

Here are the two TP quotes that were mentioned.

When you learn the first hidden skill:

だがそれは、気高き獣の精神を備える 勇者の血族だけに受け継がれるもの
However, those are inherited only by blood relatives of the hero who possesses the spirit of the sublime beast.

Those are only for one who carries the blood of the hero...the one whose spirit is that of the sublime beast.


And the quote about the bloodline when you learn... whichever hidden skill he says this with:

お前に伝える奥義も いよいよ秘技の領域に入ってきた
The special techniques I am teaching you have finally entered the realm of secret techniques.

At last, the skills I have to teach you have entered the realm of true secrecy. They are forgotten ways that do not leave our bloodline.


The sentence that mentions "our bloodline", doesn't exist in the Japanese.

#904 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 12:28 AM

Ha, figured as much. Neither of these two indicates that the Hero's Shade had to be a Link. Booyah.

#905 Raien

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 05:42 AM

1) Thanks to jacensolo for all his translation work.

2) Perhaps the line about Ganon being sealed "beyond the world of the dead" relates to TWW's introduction, in which it was said Ganon rose from the depths to ravage Hyrule.

#906 Impossible

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 06:06 AM

Ha, figured as much. Neither of these two indicates that the Hero's Shade had to be a Link. Booyah.


Those quotes really have nothing to do with whether or not he was Link, they involve his relationship to TP Link - which is still said to be by blood, it's just that one of those quotes extrapolated that - which I'm guessing was deliberate, if they knew who he was. The point is more this one:

You have at last mastered all of the hidden skills.
Although I accepted life as the hero, I could not convey the lessons of that
life to those who came after. At last, I have eased my regrets.
You who have marched through countless foes, each mightier than the last...
You, who now gaze to the future with vision unclouded...
Surely you can restore Hyrule to its stature of yore as the chosen land of the
gods.
...Farewell!
Go and do not falter, my child!


I think a snippet Jumbie posted ages ago (like, on the first page) suggested that this is the same in the Japanese version.

So we agree, then. I mean, if that case then we have no reason to think Link is any is no different from anyone else in TWW. Well, Zelda is related to her ancestor, but that's not important. What's important is that they look, act and function in the same way. They don't have to be literally the same people (like Ganondorf) as long as they play the same part in fate's little game. And that, they most certainly do.


Yes, until fate takes a very different course at the end. And the reason Ganondorf said it WAS because of that part in fate's game (along with his clothes and sword), and nothing else. Figuratively, TWW Link is the replacement for the Hero of Time, but this means nothing timeline-wise. It's just self-evident in the game. He's still the Hero of Winds, meaning he's also somewhat unique.

1) It's a statistical likelihood that he had living relatives, although they are in all probability distant ones.


And hence it's totally irrelevant. Being a distant, indirect relative or not would have absolutely NO bearing on what the King or Ganondorf or anyone else says, nor would it make him the Hero of Time reborn. To suggest anything about TWW Link's heritage is pretty much ridiculous.

2) The whole point of Link's origin story describes that his mother attempted to flee from the war and that she was only just able to make it to the forest to give her baby up to the Deku Tree. There's no way he even could have been left in another relative's care.


...Because there wasn't anyone. If she had family, where the hell were they? At war? Dead? If they weren't with her, there's no evidence or logic in saying that they exist. You can't assume something existed because we're not explicitly told otherwise. ...Oh, right, I just remembered who I'm talking to.

3) No one's arguing anything more than the figurative sense; we're arguing from the concept that heroes emerge from the bloodline of the legendary Knights as ALttP posed a long time ago.


But there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that in TWW. No matter what Ganondorf says, that's not a blood relationship to the Hero of Time. Anything else is being pulled out of someone's ass.

And I should point at that the debate was actually over whether or not TWW Link was a reincarnation of OoT Link. Which he's not. So Ganondorf's line is irrelevant.

As for Link being the Hero of Time reborn, I have found that most translators didn't interpret him as such, but translated the weird word for reincarnated as being a "worthy successor of the Hero of Time". This doesn't change that the King, Valoo, the Great Deku Tree and Jabun were wrong, either. But it's interesting to know.


Exactly, it's just like MPS said. He's a successor. But I fail to see how any of those people were wrong. They all said that he's not the Hero of Time. And factually, he's not. They put their faith in him anyway. They were still completely right about what he wasn't, it's just that Link becomes the Hero of Winds instead.

The King is wrong when he says he's not realted to teh legend because they hoped to find literally the same Hero of Time. That doesn't mean there's no relation between them. In fact, I believe there is.


This doesn't make sense. You believe that there's a relationship, and therefore the King was wrong? The King was still completely right. There's NO possible reason to say that TWW Link is related to the Hero of Time legend. He's not the Hero of Time and he's not a descendant of the Hero of Time. That was what the King was saying, and it's true.

Impossible claimed there was absolutely no evidence - and that's a lie.


It's not a lie, I just don't see how the shield proves anything. It doesn't seem to have any significance. It might have the vague POSSIBILITY of meaning something if Link could be a direct descendant of the Hero of Time, but he's not.

Reading that OoT ending, I got a sudden sense of deja vu. I think maybe Jumbie DID do it before. >_< I could be crazy, though.

Lol, well that clears up one big problem. Zelda took the Ocarina and sent Link immediately to the past. Now, who was it that theorised Zelda transported Link to the Temple of Time, in order for Link to place the Master Sword and return to the past himself?


Who cares? What kind of crazy person would theorise something that directly contradicts exactly what is shown in the game? :rolleyes:

Edited by Impossible, 16 September 2008 - 06:08 AM.


#907 Arturo

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 06:20 AM

Exactly, it's just like MPS said. He's a successor. But I fail to see how any of those people were wrong. They all said that he's not the Hero of Time. And factually, he's not. They put their faith in him anyway. They were still completely right about what he wasn't, it's just that Link becomes the Hero of Winds instead.

They were wrong because they hoped for a literal return of the Hero of Time, something that was impossible.

This doesn't make sense. You believe that there's a relationship, and therefore the King was wrong? The King was still completely right. There's NO possible reason to say that TWW Link is related to the Hero of Time legend. He's not the Hero of Time and he's not a descendant of the Hero of Time. That was what the King was saying, and it's true.

When he says there's no relationship he just means he's not the Hero of Time as they know him. He hasn't travelled through time to kill Ganondorf and save Hyrule. That's what he means when he says there's no relation. But that doesn't stop the Hero of Winds to be related to the Hero of Time in a different way than the way the King et al. expected, in fact, seeing as Ganondorf (FSA) and Zelda (TWW) seem to reincarnate, Link should as well be the reincarnation of the Hero of Time.

#908 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 08:29 AM

They were wrong because they hoped for a literal return of the Hero of Time, something that was impossible.


REGARDLESS of what they were expecting, their statements themselves were valid, despite their beliefs. The King of Red Lions had no illusions of TWW Link being connected to the Hero of Time, but still saw him as a potential successor to the title.

#909 Lexxi Aileron

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 09:46 AM

Such a line never demanded a hero be descended from any special bloodline though.


"It has been said that whenever
disaster waylays the royal
family, a Hero shall emerge
from the bloodline of the
Knights of Hyrule..."

Who cares? What kind of crazy person would theorise something that directly contradicts exactly what is shown in the game?


The two scenes never lined up in-game.

He's not the Hero of Time and he's not a descendant of the Hero of Time. That was what the King was saying, and it's true.


The King only said the former.

#910 Hero of Legend

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 09:56 AM

Why do you people keep calling the Hero's Spirit the Hero's Shade? I might just as well start referring to the Sacred Land as the Pizza-land. It's just as stupid and derivative of the original meaning.

Yes, until fate takes a very different course at the end. And the reason Ganondorf said it WAS because of that part in fate's game (along with his clothes and sword), and nothing else. Figuratively, TWW Link is the replacement for the Hero of Time, but this means nothing timeline-wise. It's just self-evident in the game. He's still the Hero of Winds, meaning he's also somewhat unique.

Yes, I agree, and that's and true for every game.

And I should point at that the debate was actually over whether or not TWW Link was a reincarnation of OoT Link. Which he's not. So Ganondorf's line is irrelevant.

You have no way of claiming this with certainty, however. Either no Link is a reincarnation or they all are, for we have no reason to suspect TWW Link is any different from the others. Arturo and I are still right about what the King and the Spirits expected, and why Link is not that person. Suffice to say, it is not related to whether Link is the reincarnated HoT or not. In fact, how could it be? They have absolutely no way of knowing that. It is an open possibility, as far as the player is concerned.

REGARDLESS of what they were expecting, their statements themselves were valid, despite their beliefs. The King of Red Lions had no illusions of TWW Link being connected to the Hero of Time, but still saw him as a potential successor to the title.

Yes, you are right. However, what if the theme of the game is just that - that they put their fate in a young boy, who ultimately turned out to be the Hero they sought all along. In fact, that IS the theme of the game (or else the King wouldn?t be surprised at the ?proof? of Link?s worthiness). What I'm saying is this; they WERE wrong - the Hero of Time did not return, and neither did the goddesses send for him. They sent Link, just as they always have. Was he a "new" Link? Well, he wasn't the Hero of Time, but he's still Link. He still tied to the same fate of good vs evil, until the King ends it at the end of the game. How completely nonsensical is it to introduce a new Link before that? To be honest, I don't think Nintenido's writers have that much disregard for their own creation.

#911 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 12:32 PM

"It has been said that whenever
disaster waylays the royal
family, a Hero shall emerge
from the bloodline of the
Knights of Hyrule..."


Citation Needed.

Why do you people keep calling the Hero's Spirit the Hero's Shade? I might just as well start referring to the Sacred Land as the Pizza-land. It's just as stupid and derivative of the original meaning.


Because it's actually CALLED the Hero's Shade in Japanese supplements?

#912 Hero of Legend

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 01:12 PM

Because it's actually CALLED the Hero's Shade in Japanese supplements?

Really? That's news to me - I distinctly remember that the name was made up by some American company that makes walktroughs or something. Of course if I'm wrong then I wouldn't mind you showing me showing me your sources.

#913 Showsni

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 01:49 PM

"It has been said that whenever
disaster waylays the royal
family, a Hero shall emerge
from the bloodline of the
Knights of Hyrule..."


Citation Needed.


Sahasralah, GBA version of ALttP:

So, you got the Pendant of
Courage! Then I shall tell you
more of the legend...
Generations ago, an order of
knights protected the Hylian
royalty. These Knights of
Hyrule were also guardians
of the Pendant of Courage.
It has been said that whenever
disaster waylays the royal
family, a Hero shall emerge
from the bloodline of the
Knights of Hyrule...
Unfortunately, most of them
were destroyed in the great
war against evil that took
place when the seven sages
created their seal, so it was
thought that a hero would
never again emerge...
But lo! I believe you are our
hero, Link! Find the
remaining Pendants.
And carry this with you.
It is a treasure passed down
by the families of the sages.
I want you to have it.


SNES version of the same quote:

Oh!? You got the Pendant Of
Courage! Now I will tell you
more of the legend...

Three or four generations ago,
an order of knights protected
the royalty of the Hylia.

These Knights Of Hyrule were
also guardians of the Pendant
Of Courage.

Unfortunately, most of them
were destroyed in the great
war against evil that took

place when the seven wise men
created their seal. Among the
descendants of the Knights Of

Hyrule a hero must appear.
...I see. Link, I believe you.
You should get the remaining

Pendants.
And carry this with you.
This is a treasure passed down

by the families of the wise
men. I want you to have it.


An interesting change.


#914 Erimgard

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 01:52 PM

I have a very small request...
Can you just tell me what the phonetic/English verison of "魔獣" is? Jumbie translates this as Demon Beast, but I'd like to know how it would be spoken/written in English letters for an article I'm writing.

#915 jacensolo06

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 02:20 PM

I have a very small request...
Can you just tell me what the phonetic/English verison of "魔獣" is? Jumbie translates this as Demon Beast, but I'd like to know how it would be spoken/written in English letters for an article I'm writing.


It's pronounced "Majuu".

#916 Erimgard

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 02:44 PM

Thank you :)

#917 Impossible

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 04:59 PM

They were wrong because they hoped for a literal return of the Hero of Time, something that was impossible.


BUT THEY WEREN'T WRONG. They hoped for a reincarnation/return of the Hero of Time, and they were correct in that TWW Link was NOT him (but had the potential to stop Ganondorf anyway). They didn't say anything incorrect about TWW Link.

The King only said the former.


So I'm the only one who takes unrelated to mean no direct relationship? Anyway, the latter is a fact from observation of the split. We're more credible than the king is.

Either no Link is a reincarnation or they all are, for we have no reason to suspect TWW Link is any different from the others.


Yes we do. The timeline split, for one. And the fact that TWW Link is the only Link to be distanced from any other Link, specifically in-game.

And technically, there's no reason to believe that any Link is a reincarnation, only that some are related by blood (I'm still fairly sure OoT Link is an ancestor of TP Link, considering TP Link is a blood relative of the hero).

Showsni, did you just quote the US SNES ALttP? Madness.

Edited by Impossible, 16 September 2008 - 11:06 PM.


#918 Lexxi Aileron

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 05:19 PM

In retrospect, I'm not sure the "whenever disaster waylays the royal family" quote appears in the Japanese at all, but again I don't have a copy of the Japanese script of GBA ALttP.

BUT THEY WEREN'T WRONG. They hoped for a reincarnation/return of the Hero of Time, and they were correct in that TWW Link was NOT him (but had the potential to stop Ganondorf anyway). They didn't say anything incorrect about TWW Link.


They hoped that the "Hero of Time would come again and save them."
Clearly, at least from the Deku Tree's speech, we know they hoped for the very same Hylian-speaking hero.

This is not what they got. They got the new guy.

So I'm the only one who takes unrelated to mean no direct relationship? Anyway, the latter is a fact from observation of the split.


Again, saying "not related to the hero" implies that someone knows for an absolute fact that he is not related in any way to the hero, which is impossible.
The king says "not related to the legend," which is true because the hero from the legend left the timeline.

#919 Hero of Legend

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 06:04 PM

BUT THEY WEREN'T WRONG. They hoped for a reincarnation/return of the Hero of Time, and they were correct in that TWW Link was NOT him (but had the potential to stop Ganondorf anyway). They didn't say anything incorrect about TWW Link.

Impossible, please try to understand; just because you keep repeating something over and over doesn't make it true. Apply the same sense of context that you always tell others to do, and you will notice that they clearly expected the HoT to return, literally, by means of time travel - the Deku Tree expects Link to know Hylian, something he would not have done if he did not think Link came from "ancient times" as he himself says.

Theres also the fact they you give these evidently fallible characters access to information they could not possibly possess. Really, tell me, how would the King know if Link is the reincarnated HoT? He doesn't have any "legendary Hero" detection apparatus to our knowledge. What he does know is that Link did not appear from a time gate from an age gone by, and is merely a regular boy from Outset Island. Of course, this is what he tells Jabun - he did not find the legendary Hero that he was looking for, but he found someone whom he believed could aid them nonetheless. This is the extent of the differentiation made between Link and the Hero of Time in TWW.

You are only right insofar that no one is strictly wrong in TWW, simply because no one denies the possibility that TWW Link is the reborn HoT.

So I'm the only one who takes unrelated to mean no direct relationship? Anyway, the latter is a fact from observation of the split. We're more credible than the king is.

No, no, no. You cannot make such assumptions about something you do posses any first hand knowledge of - the timeline split remains a mystery to us, even as third party observers. However, as a general rule, if the game itself (in this case, TWW) does not reinforce the assertion made by a previous game, then that claim is most likely irrelevant to the plot. The designers certainly could choose to ignore such "logical" consequences of OoT in favor of TWW's own story, just like they did with (for example) Ganondorf's wow to exterminate Link and Zelda's families (which is directly contradicted in TWW). It could also be argued that the goddesses who govern fate would have foreseen the timeline split and taken appropriate action as to not permanently separate the world from its Hero (a perfectly reasonable piece of speculation).

Yes we do. The timeline split, for one. And the fact that TWW Link is the only Link to be distanced from any other Link, specifically in-game.

Only because of the way the Hero of Time is presented in the story. He is the only Link who could have been expected to return centuries after saving the world. Hence why Link is assumed to be different from him.

And technically, there's no reason to believe that any Link is a reincarnation, only that some are related by blood (I'm still fairly sure OoT Link is an ancestor of TP Link, considering TP Link is a blood relative of the hero).

This, I agree with. Although reincarnation certainly is a (for the most part) convenient way of explaining how these practically identical characters return time and time again throughout the history of Hyrule.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 16 September 2008 - 06:22 PM.


#920 Showsni

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 04:51 PM

Showsni, did you just quote the US SNES ALttP? Madness.


MPS wanted to know where the waylays line was from, so I went looking for it; providing the SNES version to show why he probably couldn't find it.


#921 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 11:45 PM

Yea, I'm gonna call Woosleyism on that one. Bleh.

#922 Jumbie

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 08:26 PM

Hi guys, it's old me once again! It's cool to see that jacensolo06 has taken my job. An excellent job, I must add! Considering his immense output over only 5 days, he's certainly a lot more disciplined than me...
I'm relieved that all of you didn't have to wait any longer for the secrets of TWW to be revealed. It's been hard for me having to neglect my favourite hobby and pleasing people with it for such a long time, but I really had to look after my health and that could only recover offline. Sadly I'm now a little out of practice regarding Japanese since I've started learning Turkish, which I'm afraid will never be of any use in Zelda... :P

Among the recent translations there are many lines that I had already prepared but their respective passages never completed, so I couldn't post them. What I can now do, however, is add my opinion on some quotes that I translated differently than jacensolo06.


時の勇者が時を旅してハイラルを去る時 doesn't actually translate to "when the Hero of Time traveled through time and left Hyrule", but rather to "when the Hero of Time left Hyrule travelling through time" (して is an equivalent of "-ing").
So, no, they did not leave a possibility for the single timeline when writing TWW's script.

魚も捕れず、泳ぐこともままならぬ海?
A sea where you can?t catch any fish or have any control while swimming?

This is jacensolo's version. To compare, mine goes like this:
"A sea where neither fishing nor swimming can be done to one's heart's content?"

This would allow for a small amount of fish, at least, to live in the Great Sea.

お前を待っていた お前が、ワシの前に出るにふさわしい・・・ そう、勇者となって現れるのをな
I?ve been waiting for you. It?s appropriate for you to appear before me? Yes, for one to appear as the hero.

I did it like this:
"I have been waiting for you. For you to become qualified to stand before me? yes, to become a hero."

That would clearly mean that Ganondorf had been waiting for Link to assemble the Triforce of Courage, then.

いいぞ、 それでこそ 時の勇者の生まれかわり・・・
Yes, as I expected of the reincarnation of the Hero of Time?

My wording:
"Very good, that exactly is the reincarnation of the Hero of Time?"

To be clear, "that exactly" refers to the skills Link showed off in the Puppet battle - just in case that helps.

トライフォースに値するかをな!
And how much the Triforce is worth!

Alas, you stepped into the same trap as NoA did. The line actually translates like this:

トライフォースに値するかをな!
Whether you are worthy of the Triforce!

This is a huge difference, and it makes a lot more sense. NoA made it look like Ganondorf ended up ridiculing the Triforce - but in truth he only doubts his opponents are worthy of it.


So, that's it from me. See ya! ^^

Edited by Jumbie, 21 September 2008 - 08:30 PM.


#923 jacensolo06

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 09:53 PM

Thanks for the corrections, Jumbie!


I did it like this:
"I have been waiting for you. For you to become qualified to stand before me? yes, to become a hero."


Yeah, yours is correct. I somehow completely missed なって which means "become".


Alas, you stepped into the same trap as NoA did. The line actually translates like this:

トライフォースに値するかをな!
Whether you are worthy of the Triforce!


I see. I ignored the usage of the particle に, I think.

#924 Impossible

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 11:15 PM

Jumbie, marry me.

To be clear, "that exactly" refers to the skills Link showed off in the Puppet battle - just in case that helps.


EXACTLY what I said.

時の勇者が時を旅してハイラルを去る時 doesn't actually translate to "when the Hero of Time traveled through time and left Hyrule", but rather to "when the Hero of Time left Hyrule travelling through time" (して is an equivalent of "-ing").
So, no, they did not leave a possibility for the single timeline when writing TWW's script.


EXACTLY what we knew from the Hylian in the intro long before the split timeline was confirmed.

Any clarifications you can make on the translations of the ending scenes? Just want to be certain.

Edited by Impossible, 21 September 2008 - 11:16 PM.


#925 Raien

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 06:03 AM

And with that, it looks like everything we ever wanted translated has now been translated. Now the struggle to prevent the board from dying begins!

#926 Lexxi Aileron

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 10:36 AM

EXACTLY what we knew from the Hylian in the intro long before the split timeline was confirmed.


*shrug* "Journeyed into the flows of time" was rather vague; he does a lot of time-warping in Termina, for example.

#927 Impossible

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 10:46 AM

I'm crying myself to sleep tonight.

I think we'll find other things to translate. Isn't the eventual goal to have full translation comparison tables for every game, like we do for ALttP? Plus, not much of OoT has been done.

#928 jacensolo06

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 12:49 PM

If there's any specific quote or passage you want me to translate, feel free to let me know. If not, I'll just poke around the text dumps and post if I find anything interesting.

#929 FDL

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 01:15 PM

Hey guys, it's been a while. I agree with Impossible's suggestion about a topic that compiles all the stuff on these translations. It's so hard to find every post by Jumbie, Prime Blue, and jacensolo without going through 30+ pages. I know this was originally intended as such, but it has strayed too far from that to continue to be used effectively in that way.

#930 Hero of Legend

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 01:56 PM

"I have been waiting for you. For you to become qualified to stand before me? yes, to become a hero."

That would clearly mean that Ganondorf had been waiting for Link to assemble the Triforce of Courage, then.

Very good. It seems both Ganondorf and the King think Link's inheritence of the Triforce symbolizes the same thing.

This is a huge difference, and it makes a lot more sense. NoA made it look like Ganondorf ended up ridiculing the Triforce - but in truth he only doubts his opponents are worthy of it.

Excelent. I always wondered why Ganondorf would just turn and deny the power he sought for so long simply because the tide had turned on him. This makes a lot more sense.

Jumbie, marry me.

To be clear, "that exactly" refers to the skills Link showed off in the Puppet battle - just in case that helps.


EXACTLY what I said.

Also, EXACTLY what I said, ToC and all.




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