1600 replies to this topic

[Raien]

That was fast! We're going to get the whole game translated by tomorrow at this rate! I couldn't see anything new with this new update, but thanks very much for confirming NOA's accuracy.

[Hero of Legend]

That was fast! We're going to get the whole game translated by tomorrow at this rate! I couldn't see anything new with this new update, but thanks very much for confirming NOA's accuracy.

Accuracy? They made up the whole thing about Tetra's fate - although to be fair the fact that things play out the way they do pretty much confirms that part anyway.

Some other notes:

Hmm... The King says Zelda's ancestors were entrusted with the ToW by the gods. Well, that's true; Link and Zelda were granted their pieces by the goddesses after Ganondorf claimed his. I guess this means Jabun and the King probably were talking about OoT Zelda after all - jacensolo06, could you check on that? Also, this tells us why the ToC is evidence of Link's worthiness ? it links him to the Hero of Time the same way the ToW linked Tetra to the Royal Family.

I never thought about this before, but from the King's words it's pretty obvious that many people were left in Hyrule when the Kingdom was flooded...

Since we're talking semantics here; the King does not imply that Link and Tetra have not heard the legend of Hyrule, rather he suggests the opposite. Not that it wasn?t obvious before or anything...

"What happens now is the fate you have chosen." Well, that confirms that: In the Zelda universe, fate is something you can choose to undertake, just as I expected.

"That sword is the Anti-Demon Sword that repels demons. However, it is also the annoying seal that was sealing my Mazoku."

Hah. Duke always complained about that "plot hole." Well, I am happy to say it is a plot hole no longer. This explains how Ganondorf escaped the ?time freeze? ? likely he existed in the same way Link and the King did while the Kingdom was still frozen ? then it was only a matter of creating a portal and escaping to the surface. Also, the fact that he ?revived? from the portal means the word is not to be taken literally, though we already knew that.

[jacensolo06]

Hmm... The King says Zelda's ancestors were entrusted with the ToW by the gods. Well, that's true; Link and Zelda were granted their pieces by the goddesses after Ganondorf claimed his. I guess this means Jabun and the King probably were talking about OoT Zelda after all - jacensolo06, could you check on that?

Actually NOA translated Jabun's line about Zelda fairly accurately:

トキニ　ハイラルオウ オマエハ　ゼルダノ　チヲヒク　モノノ ショザイヲ　ツカンデイルノカ？
By the way, have you found the location of the one who is descended from Zelda, King Hyrule?
Tell me, Hyrule King... Have you learned the whereabouts of the one who carries on the bloodline of the princess, Zelda?

Also, the fact that he ‘revived’ from the portal means the word is not to be taken literally, though we already knew that.

Yes, the Japanese word used throughout the game, 蘇る, can mean "to be revived", or "to be resurrected", or "to be brought back". I've decided to continue to translate as "to be revived" for consistency's sake.

Edited by jacensolo06, 12 September 2008 - 01:31 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Actually NOA translated Jabun's line about Zelda fairly accurately:

Yes, I thought so. It just wasn't clear who "Zelda" was in that sentence - Tetra or the ancient princess (from OoT). Now we know he was in fact reffering to a previous Zelda by name (a series first since AoL, I think).

Edited by Hero of Legend, 12 September 2008 - 01:46 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The King of Red Lions didn't know the Master Sword seal had not been broken. Later in the game he learns that Ganondorf escaped by way of a portal. The seal still trapped his minions, however. Likely the seal of the gods failed because- ohwai- Ganondorf eliminated the Master Sword's power, so it couldn't hold him.

I mean the Seal of the Sages, not the Seal on Sunken Hyrule.

It really depends on the description of this scene, not on the king's presuppositions; he's wrong on several counts throughout the game and changes his mind about things.

He's reliable until contradicted.

Also, this tells us why the ToC is evidence of Link's worthiness ? it links him to the Hero of Time the same way the ToW linked Tetra to the Royal Family.

Are you implying TWW Link is a descendant of the Hero of Time?

I never thought about this before, but from the King's words it's pretty obvious that many people were left in Hyrule when the Kingdom was flooded...

I figured that was obvious. Why else would the monsters have been wrecking the joint? The unworthy were left to die. LOL RAPTURE.

[Raien]

As I see it, courage is used to test a person's worth, and that Link's reception of the ToC represents his worth in the eyes of the goddesses. That's something I wouldn't mind discussing in the new "balanced heart" topic.

[Hero of Legend]

Are you implying TWW Link is a descendant of the Hero of Time?

Well, no. I was talking more about reincarnation and sharing the same fate and such. The fact that the ToC dwells within him means that he is chosen by the gods, and by extention, the succesor of the Hero of Time. Only he was given the ToC, just as Zelda was tasked with the ToW - and that's why they both have their pieces in TWW.

I figured that was obvious. Why else would the monsters have been wrecking the joint? The unworthy were left to die. LOL RAPTURE.

You're right, I merely did not notice it until now. It appears the goddesses are pretty harsh mistresses, by any account.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 12 September 2008 - 02:03 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I'm not sure whether the seal really ties to the Master Sword's power as the blade of evil's bane; Ganondorf suggests that the seal was separate from that power.

The seal on Hyrule is certainly tied to the Master Sword, although the flood seems to be the gods' addition; that it lost its power provides the only real explanation for why he was able to escape it.

Later we learn that he was indeed revived through the portal in Forsaken Fortress, and that had to have been before the Master Sword seal was broken, so the king's information is indeed contradicted.

なるほど、ガノンはここから 地上に蘇ったというワケか・・・
I see. So Ganon was revived to the world above from here?
I see... So this is the portal through which Ganon was able to seep into the unsuspecting world above...

Are you implying TWW Link is a descendant of the Hero of Time?

Blood relatives do not need to be descendants.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 12 September 2008 - 04:07 PM.

[jacensolo06]

I have two more short passages.


The king introducing the Earth Temple and Wind Temple:

リンク、よく聞くのだ
Link, listen well.
Link, listen well...

マスターソードが退魔の力を失ったのは 剣に神の力を注ぎ込んだ　賢者たちの身に 何か起きたという表れだ
It seems that something has happened to the sages that imbue the Master Sword with the power of the gods so that it has lost its anti-demon power.
The fact that the Master Sword lost the power to repel evil suggests to me that something has happened to the sages who infused the blade with the gods' power.

賢者は、このハイラルの北にある風の神殿と 南にある大地の神殿で それぞれに、神への祈りをささげているはず
The sages should be lifting up prayers to the gods in the Wind Temple in north Hyrule and the Earth Temple in south Hyrule.
The sages should be here in Hyrule...in the Wind Temple to the north and the Earth Temple to the south, praying to the gods.

お前は、その２つの神殿におもむき 賢者の身に何が起こったのかを調べ 再び剣に退魔の力を蘇らせるのだ
You must go to those two temples and find out what has happened to the sages so that the anti-demon power can be restored to the sword.
You must head for these two temples to see what has happened to the sages and attempt to find a way to recover the power to repel evil.

残念ながら、このハイラルでは ガノンが張り巡らせた結界によって 神殿への道は断たれている
Unfortunately, Ganon has set up a barrier(kekkai) in Hyrule cutting off the path to the temples.
Unfortunately, Ganon seems to have erected some sort of magical barrier down here in Hyrule, blocking our path to the temples.

And talking about the Hero of Time and Triforce of Courage:

リンク お前は、時の勇者の伝説を知っているか？
Link, do you know the legend of the Hero of Time?
Link, do you know the legend of the Hero of Time?

かつて、あのガノンを倒し ハイラルに平和をもたらした時の勇者にも ゼルダと同じ　トライフォースが宿っていた
Long ago, the Hero of Time defeated Ganon and restored peace to Hyrule. He had a Triforce dwelling in him just like Zelda.
Once, long ago, he defeated Ganon and brought peace to the Kingdom of Hyrule... A piece of the Triforce was given to the Hero of Time and he kept it safe, much as Zelda kept hers.

それは、勇気のトライフォースと言って 時の勇者が時を旅してハイラルを去る時 勇者のもとを離れ、８つのかけらとなって 各地に飛び散ったと言われている
It was called the Triforce of Courage. It is said that when the Hero of Time traveled through time and left Hyrule, he was separated from the source of being a hero and the Triforce of Courage turned into 8 fragments and scattered throughout the land.
That sacred piece is known as the Triforce of Courage. When the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero. It is said that at that time, the Triforce of Courage was split into eight shards and hidden throughout the land.

お前はもうすでに、そのかけらを いくつか手に入れているようだが それを全て集め トライフォースを完成させれば ハイラルへの入り口は再び開くであろう 残りのかけらも探しだすのだ
You seem to have already obtained a few of those fragments, but if you collect all of them and complete the Triforce, the entrance to Hyrule will open once again. You must search for the remaining fragments.
It seems you already have some knowledge of these shards... If you are able to collect all of them, they will fuse together and complete the piece of the Triforce, once again opening the passage through the waves to Hyrule. You must search for the remaining shards.

The Japanese does refer to the Hero of Time traveling through time, but "and left Hyrule" could be referring to the same event or a subsequent event.

[Raien]

This is good; Nintendo phrased the Hero of Time ambiguously because, as they said in an interview, they weren't sure whether they wanted a single or split timeline. "And left Hyrule" could refer to Majora's Mask if Nintendo wanted a single timeline, but it can refer to the actual travelling through time now that a split timeline has been decided.

Edited by Raian, 12 September 2008 - 04:41 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Great. Once you have the time, it will prove interesting to hear what Laruto has to say about Ganondorf and his demon minion stealing her power. As I recall, Jalhalla and Molgera are called the "keepers of the seal" in their trophy descriptions - something about that might turn up in one of the Sages speeches.

Long ago, the Hero of Time defeated Ganon and restored peace to Hyrule. He had a Triforce dwelling in him just like Zelda.

Oh, lookie here~! It seems I was right about the meaning of the ToC to the King. Well, that settles that I guess.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 12 September 2008 - 05:02 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

The King of Red Lions also asks whether Link knows the legend of the Hero of Time, which seems to nullify your previous argument, Raian.

I had always thought the wording seemed to be evocative of Majora's Mask; now we know why NoA chose such similar diction.

[Raien]

The King of Red Lions also asks whether Link knows the legend of the Hero of Time, which seems to nullify your previous argument, Raian.

Fair enough then.

I had always thought the wording seemed to be evocative of Majora's Mask; now we know why NoA chose such similar diction.

Yes. I have to admit that where NOA has made mistakes in recent games, it has been mostly due to a misinterpretation of certain words. It's just a shame that these misinterpretations always occur in the most crucial of places.

[Impossible]

The King of Red Lions didn't know the Master Sword seal had not been broken. Later in the game he learns that Ganondorf escaped by way of a portal. The seal still trapped his minions, however. Likely the seal of the gods failed because- ohwai- Ganondorf eliminated the Master Sword's power, so it couldn't hold him.

PLEASE GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD. The seal on the Sacred Realm (broken in TWW's BS) is NOT the seal on Hyrule (technically never broken until its destruction) is NOT the seal of the Master Sword (broken by Link). NOT NOT NOT. Three different seals. That's the absolute truth. Stop playing these STUPID GAMES. This argument isn't worth wasting everyone's time with, because we're not even talking about the same seal. You're obsessed with making these nonsensical links between unrelated things. Apparently Nintendo scatter these hints that ONLY YOU can comprehend throughout the series, all of which point to your timeline. The seal on the SR isn't even discussed in TWW, because we assume it was broken hundreds of years earlier, and that's the only seal that your theory relates to. You can't just equate every damn seal for the hell of it.

The king very clearly implies that Link and Tetra should know the legend of the Hero of Time, the ancient kingdom, and the evil that attacked it. Whether or not Link knows is irrelevant, although living on Outset, he almost certainly would. The implication is that the legend is well-known on the Great Sea, and it's not information reserved for select individuals.

Hundreds of years passed… If Ganon had never been revived, this land of Hyrule would never have woken from its eternal sleep.

This clarification is really good. It doesn't say "remain below", it just says "woken". In other words, he's talking about the Master Sword's seal that kept Hyrule frozen. He also calls this sleep eternal. There was never any intent to bring it back.

Actually NOA translated Jabun's line about Zelda fairly accurately:

Yes, I thought so. It just wasn't clear who "Zelda" was in that sentence - Tetra or the ancient princess (from OoT). Now we know he was in fact reffering to a previous Zelda by name (a series first since AoL, I think).

Call me crazy, but the NoA translation is nicer.

Also, thanks for separating different characters speaking this time, it's much less confusing. >_<

It was called the Triforce of Courage. It is said that when the Hero of Time traveled through time and left Hyrule, he was separated from the source of being a hero and the Triforce of Courage turned into 8 fragments and scattered throughout the land.

WIN. I love you, jacensolo. I mean, obviously, we ALL KNEW THIS. But it's still nice closure. He left Hyrule by travelling through time. Of course, we've known that ever since we had TWW's Hylian intro translation. Regardless of how this can be interpreted, anyone who was around after the HoT defeated Ganondorf witnessed Link's departure as him travelling through time - and NOTHING ELSE. As I said years ago, of course, but certain people refused to listen.

You seem to have already obtained a few of those fragments, but if you collect all of them and complete the Triforce, the entrance to Hyrule will open once again. You must search for the remaining fragments.
It seems you already have some knowledge of these shards... If you are able to collect all of them, they will fuse together and complete the piece of the Triforce, once again opening the passage through the waves to Hyrule. You must search for the remaining shards.

This is interesting, I don't think I've ever seen this text. In fact, I didn't know that you could get Triforce shards before getting the Master Sword. Can you find the normal line here as well, so we know what he says if you don't have any pieces?

This is good; Nintendo phrased the Hero of Time ambiguously because, as they said in an interview, they weren't sure whether they wanted a single or split timeline.

Which interview was that?

The King of Red Lions also asks whether Link knows the legend of the Hero of Time, which seems to nullify your previous argument, Raian.

No, him having to confirm it means absolutely nothing. The implication in everything he says is still that Link can and should know the legend, and probably does. The legend from the game's intro, which Tetra also knows, and which is passed down on Outset Island. If it weren't common knowledge, he definitely wouldn't know it, but what he says while in Hyrule clearly shows that the legend would be available to them. It "survives on the wind's breath", I believe.

Edited by Impossible, 12 September 2008 - 10:46 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Long ago, the Hero of Time defeated Ganon and restored peace to Hyrule. He had a Triforce dwelling in him just like Zelda.
Once, long ago, he defeated Ganon and brought peace to the Kingdom of Hyrule... A piece of the Triforce was given to the Hero of Time and he kept it safe, much as Zelda kept hers.

Change noted.

It was called the Triforce of Courage. It is said that when the Hero of Time traveled through time and left Hyrule, he was separated from the source of being a hero and the Triforce of Courage turned into 8 fragments and scattered throughout the land.

When Link traveled back in time and left Hyrule, the Triforce of Courage separated into 8 fragments...It doesn't matter if it's just going back in time or leaving for Termina, there's still the TIME PARADOX! The Triforce shattering and scattering sure sounds like the results of reality splitting in two to me. It really couldn't be more clear: the Triforce of Courage was split when the timeline was. No wonder Ganon took over; he was pretty well uncontested.

I don't think I've ever read that line that way before. This would be why I love these translations; they may say essentially the same thing as the NoA one, but the way it says it just makes me think of things differently.

And before someone brings up "the hero never appeared, duh" the conversation between KoRL and Jabun in Japanese emphasizes that they were looking specifically for the Hero of Time. Which is what I've been thinking all along.

The seal on Hyrule is certainly tied to the Master Sword, although the flood seems to be the gods' addition; that it lost its power provides the only real explanation for why he was able to escape it.

The Master Sword loses its power because Ganondorf (or his minions) kill the sages empowering it. How, pray tell, does ol' Ganny do that when he's sealed with his minions? Simple: He's not sealed like his minions. He escapes the seal (on Hyrule, not him or his minions) and returns to the world above through a portal, gains some new minions and has them kill the sages. And the seal probably only exists within the kekkai of Ganondorf's, anyway. That's an interesting thought; maybe he put up the barrier to escape the seal on his minions.[/musing]

In fact, I didn't know that you could get Triforce shards before getting the Master Sword

You can get the one on the Isle of Steel as soon as the game lets you sail there. I discovered that on my last playthrough. I thought it would make the treasure hunt less tedious to grab what I could as soon as I could.

I don't remember if it worked, though.

[jacensolo06]

I've gotten the passages about the sages done.


Laruto:

マスターソードに選ばれし勇者よ
Oh, hero chosen by the Master Sword.
O great hero, chosen by the Master Sword!

私の名前は　ラルト
My name is Laruto.
My name is Laruto.

その昔から、この大地の神殿で マスターソードに退魔の力を宿すため 神への祈りを捧げて来た　ゾーラ族の賢者
Since ancient times, I have been lifting up prayers to the gods in this Earth Temple in order to keep the anti-demon power in the Master Sword. I am a sage of the Zora race.
I am a Zora sage. For an age, I offered my prayers here in the Earth Temple, praying that the power to repel evil would ever remain within the Master Sword.

残念ながら、アナタの持つマスターソードは ガノンドロフの策謀によって すでに　その力を失っています
Unfortunately, the Master Sword you possess has already lost that power due to Ganondorf?s strategy.
And yet...unfortunately, due to Ganondorf's evil designs, the Master Sword you hold has lost this power.

時の勇者により滅ぼされたガノンドロフが 再びハイラルに蘇った時 ガノンドロフは、その剣の力を消し去るべく この神殿を襲い、私の命を奪い去りました その剣に再び　退魔の力を蘇らせるには 私に代わり　この神殿で 神に祈りを捧げる者が　必要なのです
When Ganondorf, who had been destroyed by the Hero of Time, was revived to Hyrule, he attacked this temple and took my life in order to erase that sword?s power. In order to restore the anti-demon power to the blade, someone to pray in this temple in my stead is needed.
After his defeat at the hands of the Hero of Time, Ganondorf was sealed away...but not for all time. He was revived, and he returned to Hyrule in a red wrath. He attacked this temple and stole my soul, knowing that he had to remove the power contained in that enchanted blade. In order to return the power to repel evil to your sword, you must find another to take my stead in this temple and ask the gods for their assistance.

私の　血を引き、この聖なる楽器を持つ者
The person to do this is the one descended from me, the one who possesses this sacred instrument.
You must find the one who carries on my bloodline... The one who holds this sacred instrument...

時が流れ、代が変わっても 血に込められた使命は 伝承されているはずです
Time flows and the world changes, but the mission present in this blood has surely been handed down.
Nothing can stop the flow of time or the passing of generations...but the fate carried within my bloodline endures the ravages of all the years. It survives.

アナタが今、指揮した曲は その者に神への祈りの曲を思い出させ 賢者として目覚めさせるためのモノなのです
The song you just directed will cause that person to remember the song used to pray to the gods and awaken them as a sage.
The song you just conducted is one which will open the eyes of the new sage and awaken within that sage the melody that will carry our prayers to the gods.

この扉は、その者の奏でる曲でのみ開きます
This door will only open when that person plays that song.
The door that blocks your way will only open when the sage plays that song.

どうか、御武運を
May you have fortune in your battles.
May the winds of fortune blow with you.

Fado/Fodo:

オマエが　あたらしい勇者か？
Are you the new hero?
Are you the new hero?

オイラは　コキリ族のフォド こう見えても、と～っても偉い賢者なんだぜ
I?m Fodo of the Kokiri tribe. I don?t look like it, but I?m a most excellent sage.
I am Fado of the Kokiri tribe. I know I appear to you as a child, but the eyes can oft deceive. I am a most esteemed sage.

そのマスターソードに 退魔の力を入れるために ここで　お祈りをしてたんだけど・・・
I used to pray here in order to put the anti-demon power in the Master Sword, but?
I had been praying here so that the power to repel evil would continue to be contained within the blade of the Master Sword...

ガノンドロフのヤツに襲われて こんな姿にされちまった
Ganondorf attacked and I ended up like this.
But I was attacked by the evil Ganondorf... and this is what happened to me.

その剣に、力を取り戻したいんだろ？
You want to return power to that blade, right?
You wish to return the power to your blade, don't you?

それだったら、オイラと同じ この楽器を持っているヤツを探して さっきの曲を教えてあげな
To do so you need to find the guy who has the same instrument as I do and teach him that song.
In that case, look for the one who has the same instrument that I hold, and teach him the song you just played.

そしたら、そいつも 自分が賢者の血を引いてるって きっとわかるはずさ
Then he will surely know that he has the blood of a sage.
Once you do, I'm certain the holder of the instrument will feel the blood of the sages awaken within his veins.

オマエの持ってるタクトは 昔、オイラたち賢者を指揮して 神様を呼ぶ曲を演奏する時に使われてたんだ
In ancient times, that baton you have was used to conduct us sages when we were playing the song to call the gods.
That Wind Waker you hold was used long ago to conduct us sages when we played our song to call upon the gods.

その時は、いつも国王様が 指揮していたんだけどね
At that time, it was always the king who conducted us.
In those days, it was always the king who conducted for us...

オイラは天国でも、 ちゃんと演奏しているって 国王様に伝えてくれよな！
Please tell the king that I?ll be playing even in heaven!
Please... Tell the king that I will still play...even in the next world!

And when Medli mentions her instrument:

ワタシにとって、この楽器は 運命の楽器なんです
For me, this instrument is an instrument of fate.
This instrument is called one of fate's tools.

コレを持っているワタシを、呼び止め 今のお付きになることをすすめてくれたのが
I was seen with it, was told to stop, and was advanced to my current position of attendant.
Prince Komali's grandmother saw me carrying it one day and called out to me to stop. She'd seen my fate in the curves of the instrument, you see.

コモリ様のおばあ様で ワタシの師匠でした
Komali-sama?s grandmother was my master.
She eventually became my teacher, and that's how I became the attendant you see before you today.

だから、師匠のためにも　早く一人前になって みんなのお役に立たないと
That?s why, for my master?s sake, I need to quickly grow to adulthood and be of use to everyone.
So, now you understand why I need to hurry and improve my skills, so that I may help the aerie.

Note: When Medli calls it an "instrument of fate", the Japanese word can only mean a musical instrument, so NOA was incorrect in calling it "fate's tool". But NOA has obviously embellished on Medli's story anyways.

[Impossible]

It's always more interesting when things are different than when they just reaffirm the NoA translation... I was actually hoping we'd learn something from Laruto's dialogue. Oh well, full speed ahead, I suppose. I can't believe how fast you're going... It's going to be exciting when you hit Ganon's Tower. Which will probably be, like, tomorrow, heh.

Also, at some point, we're going to need to clarify just what "revived" means. Is it always the same word they keep using, or are there different possible meanings? Obviously it's interpreted differently in Japanese to in English, since Ganon was "revived" from situations in which he wasn't dead.

For the sake of completion, can you please add the last couple of lines of the Jabun scene on to the end if it in that post? You posted one of them afterwards, but we may as well have the whole thing in that one post.

Edited by Impossible, 13 September 2008 - 01:02 AM.

[jacensolo06]

I've edited the rest of the Jabun conversation in.

About the exact meaning of "revived", earlier in the thread I posted that the Japanese word can mean "to be revived", or "to be resurrected", or "to be brought back". So it can be used in situations such as this where Ganon hadn't died. King Hyrule uses the exact same word when telling Link to restore/revive power to the Master Sword.

This really isn't taking anywhere near as long as I thought it would. It only takes about 15 minutes (it depends on the length of course) to translate a passage.

[Impossible]

Thanks for fixing that. I have lots of cool stuff to work with now... The only thing is, I've barely used many of Jumbie's translations in my document so far, and it would take a lot of work to incorporate them properly, as I'd have to rewrite many things. Ultimately, though, it's not like I'm ignoring them - rather, the reason I'm not talking about them is because my document doesn't spend a lot of time rebutting bad theories, except for the most common ones. Most of these translations have been great in that they've clarified details that might otherwise have led to bad theories, but all this means is that they're simply a non-issue and I don't need to talk about them. Besides, I'm not writing it to appease Lex. The problem, though, is that I want to include the translations in order to get them as widespread as possible, since many people still mistakenly talk about things that we now know are wrong. Right now I just have the really important ones, but even in some of those cases, it doesn't seem worth it to change anything if the intended meaning is the same. Which it usually is, only the wording changes - usually to bring it completely in line with the interpretation I already had. Seriously, that's been the case with like 90% of the translations in this topic that have actually changed anything.

If I may make a recommendation to the mods: Why not make a copy of this topic, but with all the posts except for the ones with translations (by Jumbie, Prime Blue and jacensolo06) removed? It would be FAR easier to find them all that way. Right now I've got a running list of translation post links, but I'm sure I'm missing a lot, and 28 pages is just ridiculous to find anything in, particularly in the gaps where we didn't have translations. Then make this the "Discussion of Japanese Text Translations" topic, and the other one can keep the name of this one. I know the point is more that we should make other topics to discuss the issues raised by translations, but it's become clear that nobody wants to make a topic every single time, and often it's just a minor thing relating to an issue we're not otherwise discussing at the moment, but want to respond directly to. Having a general translation discussion topic would help sort out the clutter a lot.

[MikePetersSucks]

Blood relatives do not need to be descendants.

What the hell does that even mean? He's not the Hero of Time's ANCESTOR.

When Link traveled back in time and left Hyrule, the Triforce of Courage separated into 8 fragments...It doesn't matter if it's just going back in time or leaving for Termina, there's still the TIME PARADOX! The Triforce shattering and scattering sure sounds like the results of reality splitting in two to me. It really couldn't be more clear: the Triforce of Courage was split when the timeline was. No wonder Ganon took over; he was pretty well uncontested.

Er... you make it seem like there's an extra Triforce of Courage around. There's just one complete set of Triforce for each timeline. It probably split because he wasn't allowed to take it back with him, because he was going to get the Child Timeline's ToC.

The Master Sword loses its power because Ganondorf (or his minions) kill the sages empowering it. How, pray tell, does ol' Ganny do that when he's sealed with his minions? Simple: He's not sealed like his minions. He escapes the seal (on Hyrule, not him or his minions) and returns to the world above through a portal, gains some new minions and has them kill the sages. And the seal probably only exists within the kekkai of Ganondorf's, anyway. That's an interesting thought; maybe he put up the barrier to escape the seal on his minions.[/musing]

Or his minions managed to kill them before time froze.

Also @Laruto Translation: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA FUCK YOU "BLOODLINE" HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I WAS FUCKING RIGHT HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I KNEW IT I KNEW IT I TOLD YOU I TOLD YOU HAHAHAHAHAHAHA SUCK IT.

Okay, I'm done. I'm sorry, that felt really good. Anyone else love how this thread is like....validating every idea I've had little by little?

[Lexxi Aileron]

PLEASE GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD. The seal on the Sacred Realm (broken in TWW's BS) is NOT the seal on Hyrule (technically never broken until its destruction) is NOT the seal of the Master Sword (broken by Link). NOT NOT NOT.

Ganon was sealed after he escaped the seal on the Sacred Realm. Why is the King of Red Lions still talking about the sages' seal if the flood seal is the one he has just recently escaped? Now is not the time to be worried about a seal that lost all relevance hundreds of years ago rather than the seal that's supposedly been in place since then. Why is the "seal of the gods" not the seal that is attributed to the gods (the flood seal)? The King says: "Hearing this, the gods sealed Ganon and Hyrule by sinking them to the bottom of the ocean with a great rain and flood." This is the only "seal of the gods" we hear of in TWW.

The seal on the Sacred Realm is never attributed to the gods. It is attributed to the hero alone.

This clarification is really good. It doesn't say "remain below", it just says "woken". In other words, he's talking about the Master Sword's seal that kept Hyrule frozen. He also calls this sleep eternal. There was never any intent to bring it back.

"Eternal sleep" just means that it's not going to end on its own. Kind of like how the Sleeping Zelda was put under an "eternal sleep."

Or his minions managed to kill them before time froze.

Concur. It seemed to me that that was Ganon's #1 priority after he escaped the Sacred Realm. He seems to have been able to do it by stealth, as the king has no idea.

What the hell does that even mean? He's not the Hero of Time's ANCESTOR.

He doesn't need to be the Hero of Time's direct descendant; he just needs to be related (blood cousin, blood nephew, etc.)

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 13 September 2008 - 03:55 AM.

[Impossible]

Ganon was sealed after he escaped the seal on the Sacred Realm. Why is the King of Red Lions still talking about the sages' seal if the flood seal is the one he has just recently escaped? Now is not the time to be worried about a seal that lost all relevance hundreds of years ago rather than the seal that's supposedly been in place since then. Why is the "seal of the gods" not the seal that is attributed to the gods (the flood seal)? The King says: "Hearing this, the gods sealed Ganon and Hyrule by sinking them to the bottom of the ocean with a great rain and flood." This is the only "seal of the gods" we hear of in TWW.

The seal on the Sacred Realm is never attributed to the gods. It is attributed to the hero alone.

YES. I KNOW. Did you even vaguely comprehend my point? I love this, and this is why I keep not bothering to argue with you for long. You'll always respond to points different to the ones actually being made. The problem was that you were mixing up two different seals, and your only purpose in doing so, based on all your past arguments, is in order to make a point about a third seal. The seal of the gods is the seal on Hyrule, yes. What you fail to comprehend is that the two seals TWW deals with both have nothing to do with the Sacred Realm seal. The only seal we really care about with respect to the IW IS the SR seal, as that's the one your nonsense ideas are based around. It was broken long before TWW. The seal on Hyrule was never broken, and for the good of all people on the Great Sea, could never be broken. The seal of the Master Sword on Ganon's demons would not have been broken, but had to be due to Ganondorf's return.

"Eternal sleep" just means that it's not going to end on its own. Kind of like how the Sleeping Zelda was put under an "eternal sleep."

LOL, sure, you just get to decide what everything means. And again, you miss the point. Because in this case, he's talking about the seal that has already been broken - it's in the past tense. So he's NOT talking about the seal on Hyrule, as you have previously suggested in order to use that line as fodder for the idea of Hyrule returning. He's only talking about the seal that was INTENDED to be eternal (see dictionary definition of eternal, not Lexxi definition of eternal), but was broken by Link drawing the Master Sword. It never WOULD HAVE (conditional past tense) woken, but it did wake. This did not result in Hyrule being unflooded. The Japanese part doesn't even raise the possibility that Hyrule wouldn't "remain below", and makes no reference to its return. You're missing the point entirely because you're still interpreting the dialogue in a twisted way, so you don't even understand what I'm referring to.

He doesn't need to be the Hero of Time's direct descendant; he just needs to be related (blood cousin, blood nephew, etc.)

...LOL, who's going to tell him? Who wants the honour of reminding Lex that the timeline split happens? Can I do it, please? Ooh, it would bring me so much joy. Okay, here goes. LINK LEFT THE TIMELINE. You know, as the king tells us in TWW. And Link had no family at all, unless you want to start making crap up again even though TWW says that Link is unrelated to the Hero of Time.

Okay, I'm done. I'm sorry, that felt really good. Anyone else love how this thread is like....validating every idea I've had little by little?

Yeah, I feel that way, too. It's probably because we're not semantics-obsessed nuts. The translations validate the interpretations that focus on the intended/emphasised meaning of the text, rather than nitpicking at the wording. I've been right on virtually every count, and the one time it seemed like something I said was becoming less accurate, it turned out that once we had the right quote translated, I was still very much correct.

Edited by Impossible, 13 September 2008 - 04:22 AM.

[Raien]

If the Sages' bloodline doesn't have to be literal, then surely the same can be said for the hero. Personally, I think ALTTP Link's connection to the Knights of Hyrule has been the only distinct bloodline relation.

Edited by Raian, 13 September 2008 - 05:09 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

If the Sages' bloodline doesn't have to be literal, then surely the same can be said for the hero. Personally, I think ALTTP Link's connection to the Knights of Hyrule has been the only distinct bloodline relation.

Uh, the Royal Family, anyone? But sure, Link isn't said to be unrelated to the Hero in the Japanese version - he's merely not the hero from the legend. The only thing this changes is that there is now no real argument whatsoever for the thesis that TWW Link is somehow different from every other Link - which was a stupid idea to begin with.

It's always more interesting when things are different than when they just reaffirm the NoA translation... I was actually hoping we'd learn something from Laruto's dialogue.

Yeah, that is a bummer. We did learn one thing, however - as MPS pointed out, Ganondorf did not wait to attack the Temples that powered the Master Sword. In fact, he did this before even assaulting Hyrule. This solves yet another supposed plot hole in the story. It also means that a certain someone's theory becomes even more preposterous since the Master Sword's seal (according to him) never had the power to contain Ganondorf to begin with (which makes sense because we're never told it actually did - of course, he just ignores that fact).

Edited by Hero of Legend, 13 September 2008 - 06:13 AM.

[Impossible]

I think the general rule with Lex's timeline is that we don't have to be told something for it to be true, we just need to not have explicitly, directly been told the opposite, in a manner so clear that it would require breaking the fourth wall just to leave no room for doubt. So really, anything is possible.

But sure, Link isn't said to be unrelated to the Hero in the Japanese version

"Unrelated to the legend" is almost exactly synonymous with that. The question is still the same, and hence the response is still about the Hero of Time from the legend. Or the Hero of Time IS a legend, even. I don't think anything changes with that. There's certainly no basis on which we can claim the possibility of a relationship between OoT and TWW Link.

Edited by Impossible, 13 September 2008 - 06:38 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

"Unrelated to the legend" is almost exactly synonymous with that. The question is still the same, and hence the response is still about the Hero of Time from the legend. Or the Hero of Time IS a legend, even. I don't think anything changes with that. There's certainly no basis on which we can claim the possibility of a relationship between OoT and TWW Link.

The game makes it very clear that the characters take the legend literally. Up until the King finds Link, he was literally searching for the Hero of Time from OoT. I don't necessarily disagree with you - TWW Link is not related to the HoT by blood, at the very least - but what they mean by that discussion is that Link is not THE Hero of Time from the legend. My point is merely that some people have argued that King's statement that Link is "not related" to the Hero of Time meant that Ganondorf was (somehow) wrong when he said Link was the HoT reborn, which we now know for sure is a false argument.

[Impossible]

But he's still unrelated to the legend. He's still just metaphorically the HoT reborn. The supposedly opened possibility of any connection between them is irrelevant; the HoT has no presence on the Adult Timeline, and TWW Link is not connected to him. And what the KoRL says at least is still proof enough that he isn't the "Hero of Time reborn", because then he wouldn't have told Jabun otherwise.

Edited by Impossible, 13 September 2008 - 08:26 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

What you fail to comprehend is that the two seals TWW deals with both have nothing to do with the Sacred Realm seal. The only seal we really care about with respect to the IW IS the SR seal, as that's the one your nonsense ideas are based around. It was broken long before TWW. The seal on Hyrule was never broken, and for the good of all people on the Great Sea, could never be broken. The seal of the Master Sword on Ganon's demons would not have been broken, but had to be due to Ganondorf's return.

There are two seals on Hyrule: the flood itself and the Master Sword. Clearly Ganon circumvented at least one, probably both because Ganondorf is 1) not in Hyrule; 2) managed to avoid the Master Sword one by stealing its power.

I keep referring to the TWW seals (the one broken that the King refers to is a TWW seal; what other seal would he refer to at that time?) and then am countered with "LOL WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SAGES' SEAL". Stop pretending that makes ME an idiot.

The SR seal could not have been broken (coming from the not-really-an-assumption position that OoT is the IW and the seals are the same) because it requires the sages' power to be broken, and it is apparent that Ganon was revived from the Sacred Realm before he attacked the sages. You have to provide evidence that the seal was broken. You keep saying you have, but no one talks about the seal from OoT in TWW.

LOL, sure, you just get to decide what everything means. And again, you miss the point. Because in this case, he's talking about the seal that has already been broken - it's in the past tense. So he's NOT talking about the seal on Hyrule, as you have previously suggested in order to use that line as fodder for the idea of Hyrule returning. He's only talking about the seal that was INTENDED to be eternal (see dictionary definition of eternal, not Lexxi definition of eternal), but was broken by Link drawing the Master Sword.

"Seemingly endless"?

...LOL, who's going to tell him? Who wants the honour of reminding Lex that the timeline split happens? Can I do it, please? Ooh, it would bring me so much joy. Okay, here goes. LINK LEFT THE TIMELINE. You know, as the king tells us in TWW. And Link had no family at all, unless you want to start making crap up again even though TWW says that Link is unrelated to the Hero of Time.

The bolded assumption is actually rather illogical.

TWW doesn't say that Link is unrelated to the Hero of Time; just that he's unrelated to the legend- he isn't the hero who saved Hyrule before.

Okay, I'm done. I'm sorry, that felt really good. Anyone else love how this thread is like....validating every idea I've had little by little?

Yeah, I feel that way, too. It's probably because we're not semantics-obsessed nuts.

You just jumped on me for interpreting "eternal" as not being literal.

I might as well jump on you for this:

But he's still unrelated to the legend. He's still just metaphorically the HoT reborn.

He's the Hero of Time reborn because he's the Hero of Time, but not the hero from the legend who saved Hyrule in the past. They clearly expected the Hero of Time to travel through time and save them again.

And what the KoRL says at least is still proof enough that he isn't the "Hero of Time reborn", because then he wouldn't have told Jabun otherwise.

Did it ever occur to you that he might be wrong?
He's clearly out of the loop about a lot of things, like the Master Sword losing its power, Link being able to harness the Triforce of Courage, etc.

It also means that a certain someone's theory becomes even more preposterous since the Master Sword's seal (according to him) never had the power to contain Ganondorf to begin with (which makes sense because we're never told it actually did - of course, he just ignores that fact).

How, pray tell? He still has to escape the seal the gods themselves put in place.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 13 September 2008 - 10:31 AM.

[Arturo]

Let's see, Les.

First thing, can you please answer my post about your name? Did you know that it's against the rules for a person to have two accounts? You won't be suspended, but please answer, or else I'll interpret it as you not abiding teh rules.

About the seal in TWW, I agree with MPS by saying he's talking about the Sages' Seal. Let's put a little bit of context:

We are on the very begginning of the game, no-one's ever spoken about any other seal on Ganondorf, but the OoT one. And then the KORL says that the seal's been broken, and he doesn't know how that happenned. Isn't it a natural assumption, from the objective point of view, that he's talking about the Sages' Seal? Why would he refer the other two seals if he's never mentioned them before and Link doesn't know about them? Isn't it natural to assume that he's talking about THE ONLY SEAL LINK KNOWS ABOUT?

Yes, it could be the other one. But my interpretation is the only one that takes a sense of CONTEXT.

And, as for how to break the seal, he could do it in the ALttP way... murdering the descendants from the Seven Sages.

And that's all there is.

[Lexxi Aileron]

First thing, can you please answer my post about your name? Did you know that it's against the rules for a person to have two accounts? You won't be suspended, but please answer, or else I'll interpret it as you not abiding teh rules.

My computer consistently forgets the passwords for my old account and oftentimes wouldn't log me in even when it did remember them; after having to request getting it changed about four or five times (to one of those ridiculous 15-character or something passwords) only to have it lock me out the email account I signed up with now will no longer work, so I couldn't access the boards AT ALL as a user. I haven't encountered this problem with the new account.

We are on the very begginning of the game, no-one's ever spoken about any other seal on Ganondorf, but the OoT one. And then the KORL says that the seal's been broken, and he doesn't know how that happenned. Isn't it a natural assumption, from the objective point of view, that he's talking about the Sages' Seal? Why would he refer the other two seals if he's never mentioned them before and Link doesn't know about them? Isn't it natural to assume that he's talking about THE ONLY SEAL LINK KNOWS ABOUT?

"Now that Ganon has been revived" (from the "seal of the gods") he once again poses a threat.

If the KoRL is talking about the present threat, his reference to a seal that ceased to matter a long time ago doesn't make sense. He's talking about Ganon's present escape and how it has allowed him to once again threaten the world. Furthermore, he references the "seal of the gods," and the seal Link knows about was never in any way connected to the gods.

Also, doesn't the fact that he clarifies that Ganondorf is the same one from the legends (the Ganondorf Link has heard of, as some would have it) also somewhat show that the seal he talks about is different. If he's talking about the seal Link already knows, there would be no need to clarify the identity of the villain in relation to the legends, would there?

And, as for how to break the seal, he could do it in the ALttP way... murdering the descendants from the Seven Sages.

The game says he was revived before he targeted the sages.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 13 September 2008 - 11:17 AM.