215 replies to this topic

[The Missing Link]

Are there any actual statements which would lead us to conclude that the Force Gems are indeed separate from the force (this is ignoring the fact that Bellum probably would have absorbed them if they were – not that the game is logicaly sound otherwise) or is this just the standard TML skepticism? Otherwise LionHarted’s reasoning appears sound here - baring any untold info - so I would say it is valid as a hypothesis as of now.

In either case, the Gems appear to have some connection to the Triforce, but who knows if there is actually any meaning to it, or if they exist to with the purpose of fulfilling this game’s glowing Triforce crest quota (likely).

In all likelihood, this is probably all the case of LionHarted using bad grammar in his sentence, causing it to read something he didn't intend. Let me strip out the unnecessary clauses of his sentence here.

(1) "'Force Gems'... appear in PH...."

This statement is true. Force Gems appear on Levels B3 and B12 of the Temple of the Ocean King. On each floor of this dungeon, you must collect three of them to place them on three pillars positioned in the shape of the Triforce. Upon doing so, each pillar will lower down, filling in the shape of a triangle. Doing all three, the Triforce appears, thereby opening the door to the next room/level of the dungeon.

(2) "'Force Gems', ... in [the context of] PH[, are] related to the 'force' that represents the life force of the people."

This is false. Artifacts used in fulfilling the requirements of a puzzle do not in any way relate to the life force of the people.

Now, this does not state that the Sands of Time as related to the Phantom Hourglass in PH does not have any association or relation to the Force Gems that power the Four Sword in FSA, the light force Zelda has in MC, or the Triforce the goddesses gave to Hyrule in every Zelda game it appears in. By and large, they accomplish much of the same purpose. Ish. I'd yield that point. (After all, magical power, human vitality, and sword energy are related; however, they may not necessarily be equivalent. That would provide the standard TML cautionary warning.)

If that's what he meant, then that's perfectly fine.

More succinctly, I'm willing to hedge my bets on the fact that the Force Gems in PH were named that only because they looked identical to the ones from FSA. It's quite obvious that they serve very different purposes, however, and I think you could call PH's Force Gems by any other name and still not change the overall intention of that minute aspect of the game.

Edited by The Missing Link, 01 October 2007 - 03:54 AM.

[LionHarted]

Now, this does not state that the Sands of Time as related to the Phantom Hourglass in PH does not have any association or relation to the Force Gems that power the Four Sword in FSA, the light force Zelda has in MC, or the Triforce the goddesses gave to Hyrule in every Zelda game it appears in. By and large, they accomplish much of the same purpose. Ish. I'd yield that point

All but the last are referred to by the same terminology - "force" - at least once, either by the developers or otherwise (this includes, even, the force gems in PH multiplayer).

And OH SNAP I WAS RIGHT. The Sand of Hours was made from Force Gems, according to PH (and the Phantom Hourglass specifically is made of the Ocean King's life force). So now we know that, since the Force Gems are actually life force, they must have predated even the Four Sword. This doesn't really add anything timeline-wise, but it does make the argument "Force Gems in PH = PH after FSA" moot.

Edited by LionHarted, 03 October 2007 - 11:58 AM.

[SOAP]

So is it safe to assume that TMC comes some time after PH?

[LionHarted]

I can't see why else PH would use so many elements exclusively seen in the FS series, if not to suggest this as the case.

However, there's nothing solid that indicates any particular order; just a connection to some extent between the Force Gems, power of light, "sacred power", life force, Sand of Hours, etc. (as these terms are all used interchangeably/to refer to the same power/substance in PH).

[SOAP]

So it's Sands of Hours now? Good. I was about to cry "Prince of Persia" rip-off.

[SOAP]

Hooray for double posts! And beer!

Okay, now that I've actually started playing it and I think I recall them saying something about the Sand of Hours being made from the Force Gems of the Ocean King. It's in the scene where you first get the phantom hourglass I think.

[LionHarted]

Text dump is up: PH.

[SOAP]

Found it!

The sand inside the
Phantom Hourglass is called
the Sand of Hours.
The beast you defeated in
the Temple of Fire held
some grains of it.
It is said to be made of
Force Gems of the great
spirit, the Ocean King.
It gives deep strength to
whoever holds its power.

From now on, you must
defeat monsters and collect
their Sand of Hours.
For the more sand you
place in the hourglass, the
longer its power will last.

So the Force Gems ARE more just keys to open doors in PH. They're part of the Ocean King's essence and the Sand of Hours is made from them. And the Triforce is the essence of the Gods....

Edited by SOAP, 09 October 2007 - 05:48 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Found it!

The sand inside the
Phantom Hourglass is called
the Sand of Hours.
The beast you defeated in
the Temple of Fire held
some grains of it.
It is said to be made of
Force Gems of the great
spirit, the Ocean King.
It gives deep strength to
whoever holds its power.

From now on, you must
defeat monsters and collect
their Sand of Hours.
For the more sand you
place in the hourglass, the
longer its power will last.

So the Force Gems ARE more just keys to open doors in PH. They're part of the Ocean King's essence and the Sand of Hours is made from them. And the Triforce is the essence of the Gods....

The force exists within everyone, though. It's not something that only the Ocean King possesses.

The question now is whether the Force/Force Gems = Light Force or not. The fact that Tetra has so much of it seems to imply so, however.

Four Swords, here we come? I just wish Bellum wasn't such an obvious Vaati rip-off...

[SOAP]

My money is that Force Gems = Light Force. The Force Gems are physical manifestations of the power of the Light Force/Life Force taht all Light Dwellers have while the Sand of Hours is made from the grains of the Force Gems of the Ocean King. What I want to is is if maybe... just maybe... The Triforce are Force Gems of the Three Goddesses. I know it's not canon but in the one of the Cartoons, didn't the Triforce look something like a friggin huge, tricolored force gem?

Edited by SOAP, 09 October 2007 - 07:57 PM.

[LionHarted]

First we need to establish a few things:

1) Force Gems in PH are only described once, as the power of the Ocean King stolen by evil. (Source below.)
"That is a Force Gem, stolen from the Ocean King by the hands of evil."

2) The Sand of Hours, the power source of the Phantom Hourglass, is made of Force Gems. (Source below.)
"The sand inside the Phantom Hourglass is called the Sand of Hours. The beast you defeated in the Temple of Fire held some grains of it. It is said to be made of Force Gems of the great spirit, the Ocean King. It gives deep strength to whoever holds its power."

3) Every creature possesses a sacred power known as life force, which is manifested physically as the Sand of Hours. (Source below.)
"As you know, every creature in this world possesses a sacred power. This power is called life force. The Sand of Hours is a physical manifestation of that power."

4) Taking points 1-3 above, we know:
[Force Gems = Sand of Hours = Life Force.]

5) The sacred power of the Phantom Blade is supplied by the Sand of Hours. (Source below.)
"Take this blade to the Ocean King. He will add the Sand of Hours. Only he can empower the Phantom Sword with the ability to control time."

6) The sacred power to repel evil housed within the Four Sword is supplied by Force Gems. (Source below.)
"You found a Force Gem, the Four Sword's power source!"

In short, the Sand of Hours/Force Gems/life force do more or less what Force Gems did in Four Swords Adventures, plus so much more.

7) When people lose their life force, they turn to stone. To restore them, you must restore their life force.

8) Vaati's curse turns people to stone, but Zelda somehow manages to still have life in her eyes (according to TMC). To restore them, you have to use the power of the Four Sword (which, as you'll recall, is powered by Force Gems).

[Note on Point 8: The Zelda tangent seems to suggest that the light force allows Zelda to retain a portion of sacred power even after being turned to stone. This would seem to suggest that the light force is a form of life force.]


Theories I concoct based on this:

1) Logically, TMC's backstory cannot be the first appearance of life force, since life force is actually rather necessary for people to live normally. It is possible, however, that TMC is still meant to symbolize the gifting of the sacred power of life force to humanity (despite the fact that life force is present in everything). Why the Picori would have such a force, I cannot say. xD

2) Based on my logical objection to the theory presented in 1, I would say instead that the light force is a superpowerful Force Gem, possibly made from leftover shards of life force gathered by Bellum in PH. Again, why the Picori have it, I can't say. Haha. Personally, I would say the light force is designed to replace the ancient powers gifted to the Hylians after their blood thins thanks to the TWW flood, but not everyone will necessarily agree.

Then of course, there's the fact that they're making wayyyyy too many references to TMC/FSA to be ignored.

Edited by LionHarted, 10 October 2007 - 11:20 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Someone slap me, but I think I'm agreeing with Lionharted.

[SOAP]

Has anyone noticed how the crest for the Ocean King which pretty much appears all over the place in PH is the same as the Blue Royal Jewel in FSA and the symbol for the Water Element in TMC? It makes huge sense, since he is the Ocean King after all but what would the repercussions be? Is the blue Four Sword somehow related to the Ocean King specifically?

[LionHarted]

I have a fanficcish theory that there will be a series of games in which sacred blades are made for each of the four Elements, and that these "Four Swords" will eventually become the "Four Sword", the sacred blade forged by the Picori.

Since the Phantom Sword (sword of the Ocean King) corresponds to the Water Element, I think it's conceivable that they might later pursue a plotline involving swords of the other Elements, at the very least.

[Hero of Legend]

Has anyone noticed how the crest for the Ocean King which pretty much appears all over the place in PH is the same as the Blue Royal Jewel in FSA and the symbol for the Water Element in TMC? It makes huge sense, since he is the Ocean King after all but what would the repercussions be? Is the blue Four Sword somehow related to the Ocean King specifically?

It's not exactly the same (I think), but I did notice that while examining a few screenshots a long time ago. Anyway, LionHarted's theory could work, but I'd wager Nintendo went with the Water Element simply because there's a lot of 'Ocean' in PH. Had it been a fire-themed game, well, you get the point.

As for TMC, I think it's obvious by now that it takes place sometime after TWW. The backstory is another matter, however. It's supposed to occur very early in Hyrule?s history, but Nintendo might ignore that particular part of the story. Anyway, I don't think there's any evidence to place it before/after PH just yet.

If it was after, like LionHarted says, the origin of the Four Sword/light force might become a little clearer, and we don?t have to worry about any of the flood related issues (though I doubt Nintendo would care about that). However, it doesn?t explain why Zelda has more force than other people in PH. On the other hand, I don?t see any issues in placing it before PH; the light force was given to the HoM to be used together with the Picori Sword as a weapon to drive back the evil monsters, and was then embodied in the princess of Hyrule. Nothing ever says that it was originally made by the Minish, and if they could create it from Force Gems after PH, they could have done so before that as well.

Besides, the light force might work much like the Twilight Realm, and so people might not always have depended upon it as a source of life.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 11 October 2007 - 11:19 AM.

[LionHarted]

As for TMC, I think it's obvious by now that it takes place sometime after TWW. The backstory is another matter, however. It's supposed to occur very early in Hyrule?s history, but Nintendo might ignore that particular part of the story.

Well, all that they said about it was that it's "very old". I'd like to say it's one of the early chapters of the NEW Hyrule, personally.

[MikePetersSucks]

However, it doesn?t explain why Zelda has more force than other people in PH.

Perhaps because she's one of the few purebred Hylians left? Zelda has always been especially powerful, and her heightened magical and psychic abilities might be a result of her stronger life force since OOT.

[Hero of Legend]

That seems more like a bad excuse to me. Frankly, given the Four Swords references I doubt Nintendo would have made a point about it if it wasn?t supposed to mean something.

Well, all that they said about it was that it's "very old". I'd like to say it's one of the early chapters of the NEW Hyrule, personally.

There's also the origin of the cap and the explanation for the hidden items to consider. I doubt the second one means anything, but Nintendo would have to change their minds about the origin story and the ?very old? statement.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 12 October 2007 - 07:47 AM.

[Evilsbane]

There's also the origin of the cap and the explanation for the hidden items to consider. I doubt the second one means anything, but Nintendo would have to change their minds about the origin story and the ?very old? statement.

Don't forget that the Minish were also the ones who invented Armos Statues. Oot, TWW, ALttP, LoZ and many other games feature Armos Statues. Oh, and the Minish made the Pegasus Boots.

Edited by Evilsbane, 22 October 2007 - 11:38 AM.

[LionHarted]

There's also the origin of the cap and the explanation for the hidden items to consider. I doubt the second one means anything, but Nintendo would have to change their minds about the origin story and the ?very old? statement.

If it's the origin of the cap, where did the green clothes come from? At least four games clearly assert the clothes come from forest folk (Kokiri): OoT, MM, TWW, and OoA(?). Four games vs. one game that doesn't really state that it's the origin of something but we all assume that it is for some reason... not really hard to see where the evidence is slanted.

And, as I recall, hidden items have been explained through other means before (people losing stuff, etc.).

And they don't have to change their minds about "very old." The entire storyline is "very old"; it's a legend, after all.

[MikePetersSucks]

Don't forget that the Minish were also the ones who invented Armos Statues. Oot, TWW, ALttP, LoZ and many other games feature Armos Statues. Oh, and the Minish made the Pegasus Boots.

Doesn't really effect TMC's placement, though. They could've invented all that stuff and TMC could've happened after several games.

[Evilsbane]

Don't forget that the Minish were also the ones who invented Armos Statues. Oot, TWW, ALttP, LoZ and many other games feature Armos Statues. Oh, and the Minish made the Pegasus Boots.

Doesn't really effect TMC's placement, though. They could've invented all that stuff and TMC could've happened after several games.

Can we at least agree that the 'Hero of Men' story is first, then?

[FDL]

PH spoilers:

Can someone explain to me how Force Gems being in PH means it's before TMC? I don't get how that's true.

[LionHarted]

Can we at least agree that the 'Hero of Men' story is first, then?

No, because there's, again, no reason for it to be.

[SOAP]

PH spoilers:

Can someone explain to me how Force Gems being in PH means it's before TMC? I don't get how that's true.

It never necessarily meant that TMC takes place after OoT. Only that it's a strong enough connection to warrant placing TMC in the same timeline as TWW. Placing it after PH is just a logical conclusion since TWW leads directly from OoT's adult ending and TMC doesn't have enough justification to be placed before OoT. Unless you want to place it between TWW and PH then that's just plain crazy. Nothing says it has to be after PH though. It can just as easily fit between OoT and TWW or before OoT if you believe TMC is a prequel to the whole series.

[Evilsbane]

Can we at least agree that the 'Hero of Men' story is first, then?

No, because there's, again, no reason for it to be.

But as Mike said:

They could've invented all that stuff and TMC could've happened after several games.

Which isn't possible if 'The Hero of Men' isn't first, since that's the point at which the Minish arrived in Hyrule. The Minish can't invent Armos Statues and leave hidden items for OoT if, as you say, their first venture into Hyrule isn'ty until much later.

[LionHarted]

Which isn't possible if 'The Hero of Men' isn't first, since that's the point at which the Minish arrived in Hyrule. The Minish can't invent Armos Statues and leave hidden items for OoT if, as you say, their first venture into Hyrule isn'ty until much later.

Clearly the Minish didn't invent all Armos Statues, as not all Armos Statues are the same, and some appear to have been created by the gods (TWW, possibly TP).

Just as clearly the Minish didn't necessarily place ALL hidden items in Hyrule in EVERY game, unless they happen to have been present on Koholint and in the world of the Ocean King (assuming it exists for a moment) as well.

[Arturo]

If Links remembers to have found Rupees hidden in grass (put by Minish), in his dream it's natural taht they appear hidden in grass in Koholint

[LionHarted]

If Links remembers to have found Rupees hidden in grass (put by Minish), in his dream it's natural taht they appear hidden in grass in Koholint

That covers Koholint.
Doesn't cover the Sacred Realm.

[Evilsbane]

If Links remembers to have found Rupees hidden in grass (put by Minish), in his dream it's natural taht they appear hidden in grass in Koholint

That covers Koholint.
Doesn't cover the Sacred Realm.

No but Ganon's personal image of Hyrule (hidden items and all) covers the Dark World. I'll grant you the fact that hopping Armos Statues and walking Armos Statues are different, but they're both Armos Statues and until there's even an indication that the hopping ones have different inventors to the walking ones, I'll assume they're of the same origin. Anyway, the Armos Statues of the TotG and the ToT in TWW and TP respectively could easily have been built by Minish.