215 replies to this topic

[Person]

TP just beat OoT for "most confusing ending ever."

[Vertiboy]

Hm... I didn't think that Zant was dead. I remember that Midna blew him up, but before she did, Zant said that Ganondorf would revive him endlessly. Dead or not, I saw Zant's death the same way the last few people have. It was showing that Ganondorf was dead, so now Zant could also die.

[CID Farwin]

Exactly, Fyxe. I always interpreted it as Zant dying along with Ganon. And while yea, it's really stupid when people say Zant killed Ganon, I think it'd be funny if it did turn out that Zant was pulling, as someone put it, an "IN YO' FAEC!"

Hm... I didn't think that Zant was dead. I remember that Midna blew him up, but before she did, Zant said that Ganondorf would revive him endlessly. Dead or not, I saw Zant's death the same way the last few people have. It was showing that Ganondorf was dead, so now Zant could also die.

Now this is refreshing. The last time I saw this come up I thought me and Fyxe were the only sane people.

[jmaliscious]

Hm... I didn't think that Zant was dead. I remember that Midna blew him up, but before she did, Zant said that Ganondorf would revive him endlessly. Dead or not, I saw Zant's death the same way the last few people have. It was showing that Ganondorf was dead, so now Zant could also die.

I certainly see where you guys are coming from with approach to the ending, and I can see this interpretation.

I also interpreted it in the sense of that cutscene in TP where Ganon says "Their rage bled across the void and awakened me" (don't quote me exactly) and he then housed his power in Zant. I guess for me, Zant cracking his neck also represented that he was free of Ganon's control, either as his own choice, because of dying, or both. I suppose this reading can also be taken in the sense that when Ganon died he was alone and had no one, not even his loyal pawn Zant stood by him, which creates some kind of sensation of what will happen to Ganon when he dies (as a consequence of his evil actions) i.e. enter a state of sterility, and loneliness.

[MikePetersSucks]

My theory was simply that Zant wasn't done resurrecting, so with the death of Ganon, the process was kind've canceled.

[jmaliscious]

On the original post of TMC's placement, I don't know if it is meant to be first (Probably because I haven't played the whole FS saga). Many people have argued that because of Link's hat and the state of Hyrule that it comes first. One thing that did make me agree with TMC being first when I played it was the fact that Death mountain was named Mt. Crenel, which I have never seen in any other game before.
If this was to be the case, then obviouslyan event occurred or the mountain became very dangerous or something like that for it to have its name changed. If TMC was not first, I doubt that Death mountain's named would be changed to Mount Crenel and then changed back.
I suppose there is also the issue that some people belive the FS saga is separate to the other games, but then again Ganondorf and Vaati both appear in this series and both in FSA, so in that sense I see no reason why they have to be separate.

[LionHarted]

If this was to be the case, then obviouslyan event occurred or the mountain became very dangerous or something like that for it to have its name changed. If TMC was not first, I doubt that Death mountain's named would be changed to Mount Crenel and then changed back.

*cough*Great Flood*cough*

*cough*reinhabited in the FSA era*cough*

[MikePetersSucks]

Or it could be that Mt. Crenel is just another goddamn mountain, and Hyrule is just never fully depicted in any one game like common sense would dictate.

[CID Farwin]

and Hyrule is just never fully depicted in any one game like common sense would dictate.

you mean that THAT'S why they're all different, and not because because they're just different!?!?!!?!?
But that would create a situation where the maps for ALttP and OoT could be the same!! NO! I won't believe it!
[/EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEME sarcasm]

Edited by CID Farwin, 24 August 2007 - 05:18 PM.

[Kish]

It makes the most sense for the "Four Sword" games to exist in their own self-contained continuity. There are no contradictions this way.

OoT -> TWW -> ALttP -> LA
OoT -> MM -> TP
TMC -> FS -> FSA

[SOAP]

It makes the most sense for the "Four Sword" games to exist in their own self-contained continuity. There are no contradictions this way.

OoT -> TWW -> ALttP -> LA
OoT -> MM -> TP
TMC -> FS -> FSA

That's a legitimate view but it's nothing new and you can't go on that much from there. Besides, there's no contradiction placing TMC before or after OoT for that matter. Just some people are a tad pretentious about putting anything before OoT since it's so "Sacred" or whatever.

If Nayru's figurine description in TMC has any significance though, it would place TMC after OoX, IMO, since the Nayru in TMC would be a decendant of the one in OoA. Else, why make a reference to her having ancestral line at all? Besides, TMC fits neatly after Oracles, which most people seem to place after ALttP.

Else, I'd just place it first.

[Kairu Hakubi]

Humm.. the hat... I'd always held that OoT had to be first because we see the origin of the outfit, it's the kokiri outfit.. the kokiris are elves.. and it explains why link's always been so elfishlooking without being an elf.
But then again, we discover in TWW that the kokiri are really little adorable wood midget fellows, and at that point I began thinking that the deku tree specifically had the kokiri become humanlooking so that Link could grow up with 'his own kind' ... and if I believe that, why shouldn't I believe he purposely dressed the kokiri in hero's clothes, complete with the pre-established hat? Mrrr...

[MikePetersSucks]

Or they could've just evolved to suit the whole Flood crap. There were legends of the Kokiri having human form before Link ever joined their society.

[Evilsbane]

Humm.. the hat... I'd always held that OoT had to be first because we see the origin of the outfit, it's the kokiri outfit.. the kokiris are elves.. and it explains why link's always been so elfishlooking without being an elf.
But then again, we discover in TWW that the kokiri are really little adorable wood midget fellows, and at that point I began thinking that the deku tree specifically had the kokiri become humanlooking so that Link could grow up with 'his own kind' ... and if I believe that, why shouldn't I believe he purposely dressed the kokiri in hero's clothes, complete with the pre-established hat? Mrrr...

OMG that's a goddamn brilliant theory!! You deserve an award of some description. I'm gonna ask a few friends what they think...

[Reflectionist]

If TMC comes first because of the Hat.... shouldn't WW come after that because Link doesn't start off with a Hat?

[Evilsbane]

If TMC comes first because of the Hat.... shouldn't WW come after that because Link doesn't start off with a Hat?

After? Yes
Immediately after? No

[LionHarted]

If TMC comes first because of the Hat.... shouldn't WW come after that because Link doesn't start off with a Hat?

Pssh. Where did TMC Link get the green clothes?

[Jumbie]

Where did ALttP Link get his green clothes?
Where did LoZ Link get his green clothes?
Where did Oracles Link get his green clothes?
Where did FS Link get his green clothes?

Answer: The clothes Link wears are just a *very* common medieval attire. Look at Robin Hood. Look at Peter Pan (though not medieval). Look at the man in AoL's manual who wears the same green-brown clothes as Link (even sharing the hat!).
And you'll find even more Hylians wearing the same clothes in a different colour than green.
As for the Kokiri's fashion, look at what dwarves are usually depicted wearing - a pointed hat and a tunic with belt, ain't it?!

The thing is, Link's green garments only appear outlandish to people in two out of 14 Zelda games:

TWW - The design of the Hero of Time's costume was recorded and passed on due to that tradition on Outset Island.
TP - Faron gave Link the same costume that OoT Link wore, or at least a replica.

[LionHarted]

The thing is, Link's green garments only appear outlandish to people in two out of 14 Zelda games:

TWW - The design of the Hero of Time's costume was recorded and passed on due to that tradition on Outset Island.
TP - Faron gave Link the same costume that OoT Link wore, or at least a replica.

And in OoT (Malon notes them as forest clothes).
And in MM (Romani takes note, at least).
And in OoS (check the text dump, called outlandish).
And in OoA (again, text dump; Tingle notes them as fairy clothes).
And in TMC (text dumps are your friend).

Just because there's no story behind them doesn't mean they aren't still an oddity. They have been since OoT, when they were given an origin. Fancy that. And in 99% of the games, this origin is upheld (they are forest clothes).

[Showsni]

Look at Peter Pan (though not medieval).

Peter Pan wears "skeleton leaves and the juices that ooze out of trees..." Tree sap soaked rotten leaves are pretty far from what Link wears.

Even when Link's clothes are outlandish, other than TWW and TP this can't be connected to other games, unless it's for a reason not told to us. I mean, TWW could follow OoT because OoT sets up a tradition of wearing green clothes, but as far as we know the green clothes in OoA are just a coincidence and not because of an earlier game.

[Jumbie]

And in OoT (Malon notes them as forest clothes).
And in MM (Romani takes note, at least).

I give you that. Hm, I had thought she only commented on his guardian fairy..

And in OoS (check the text dump, called outlandish).

By a Subrosian! Big surprise that he finds human clothing a bit strange, having never seen anything but the hooded cloaks they wear down there...

And in OoA (again, text dump; Tingle notes them as fairy clothes).
And in TMC (text dumps are your friend).

Tingle always assumes Link to be a fairy because of his green clothes. Even in games where there are no Kokiri around, such as in the mentioned two. That means Tingle must conclude it from his own green jumpsuit and cap. Therefore, Link's clothes are special only to his own crazed mind. And he informs his brothers of what colour Link is wearing so they'll recognize him.

And in 99% of the games, this origin is upheld (they are forest clothes).

I've just refuted that. As for OoT, the Kokiri legend was better known back then, so probably not many people would choose to wear a green cap and garment. Many Hylians still wear green in OoT though.

Peter Pan wears "skeleton leaves and the juices that ooze out of trees..." Tree sap soaked rotten leaves are pretty far from what Link wears.

How do you know that's not what the Kokiri tunic is made of? In fact, I bet it's made of something like that, they don't have much choice in the woods...
Of course that goes only for young OoT Link.
And the reason I mentioned Peter Pan was just about the design, not the material.

[MikePetersSucks]

How do you know that's not what the Kokiri tunic is made of? In fact, I bet it's made of something like that, they don't have much choice in the woods...

There is no way in bloody hell the Kokiri tunic is made of sap and leaves. It would be much more obvious if it were.

[Arturo]

It might be a practical detail. Anyway, it's stupid thinking about such nitpicky things. It's just a green tunic.

[Lance9384]

Didn't Aonuma state that TMC was the oldest story in the series?
I swore I remember seeing that in an interview.

[MikePetersSucks]

The better question is, should we care?

[Fyxe]

Well, yes, in a way we should, because he knows more than we do.

No, really, he does. He makes the fucking games.

However, he didn't say that about TMC, so it's moot.

[Hero of Legend]

Fyxe = Right.

Incidentally, the scriptwriter for Phantom Hourglass also worked on The Minish Cap. Given the recurring themes of these games, game developers and their intentions clearly matter.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 21 September 2007 - 01:55 PM.

[SOAP]

No I think I remember Aunoma saying something about TMC being first in some interview. In fact it's where the whole theory about it being the origin of Link's hat came from. It probably wasn't Aunoma though but it was someone who worked for Nintendo, probably a writer for the game but I'm sure it was him. I just can't remember which interview.

[CID Farwin]

Come to think about it, I do seem to remember something like this.. but I think I heard he was talking about the "light force" timeline. I don't know, maybe we need someone to do some digging.

Fyxe = Right.

Incidentally, the scriptwriter for Phantom Hourglass also worked on The Minish Cap. Given the recurring themes of the games, game developers and their intentions clearly matter.

Score one for sanity.

[Hero of Legend]

No I think I remember Aunoma saying something about TMC being first in some interview.

Oh, no, that's correct. Aonuma did say they were thinking of The Minish Cap as the earliest game in the storyline. I meant Fyxe is right about developer statements making a difference to the timeline, though clearly they are fickle.