215 replies to this topic

[Evilsbane]

I think you might be reading too much into that!

I might just be assuming that details being mentioned have actual relevance, maybe.

Would you mind not quoting me if you're going to leave out the part where I make my point:

Even if he was 'once human', there's no reason to believe he can't transform back, as I've said.

Because the games are parallel. As I've said however, if you ignore that particular interview then your theory is as valid as mine.

Because that's not open for interpretation at all, especially given the hero references in TP.

I'm glad you brought up the Hero references, actually. In a Split Timeline, my theory actually explains why there are still legends about a hero in TP - he foiled Ganondorf a different way, in FSA.

He may have been trying to say that they're different Links

He said quite pointedly that they're not related.

Well, like I said, I don't recall that interview, so I can't pretend to know more than you do about it. Can you link to it?

Edited by Evilsbane, 12 November 2007 - 04:29 AM.

[LionHarted]

Even if he was 'once human', there's no reason to believe he can't transform back, as I've said.

Why mention it if he can transform back?
Why not have him transform back?

I'm glad you brought up the Hero references, actually. In a Split Timeline, my theory actually explains why there are still legends about a hero in TP - he foiled Ganondorf a different way, in FSA.

Notably without anyone recalling that he split into four people.

Well, like I said, I don't recall that interview, so I can't pretend to know more than you do about it. Can you link to it?

I'm trying to find it, but I forget which magazine it was in. I want to say Nintendo Power, but for some reason that doesn't sound right.

[SOAP]

Actually I mean that in a span of a couple years at most all that happens. If I remember your theory correctly, you said that Ganondorf is first foiled in OoT, then runs off into the desert and steals the Trident. After that he is sealed in the Four Sword and then breaks out and is sealed in the Twilight Realm soon after. That's what I meant. But there's still quite a few other inconsistencies as well, not the least of which being the differences between the Gerudo of OoT and the Gerudo of FSA, as well as the status of the Triforce.

Well, you got it mostly right, but here's the actual theory:
Ganon is an ancient demon. Twinrova reincarnate him in Gerudo form (they are not his mothers but rather his 'surrogate' mothers) named Ganondorf. OoT happens, and at the end Link gets sent back in time and prevents Ganondorf from getting into the Sacred Realm by simply not attempting to get in himself. Ganondorf, having no other way to get into the Sacred Realm (evil ones can't touch the Master Sword) decides to come back to the problem later, after accruing more power. This means that none (or very little) of OoT actually happened in the child timeline (Twinrova doesn't die, the original Sages aren't wiped out, the Gerudo don't turn to evil but instead continue their noble nomadic existence and the new Sages of OoT fame aren't awakened), and Ganondorf continues his 'loyal ally of the king' charade. He turns his attentions to other magical artifacts such as a Mirror in which a dark tribe was sealed...

Meanwhile Link, now a friend of Zelda, is called by her to help her inspect a seal cast over an ancient relic known as the Four Sword. Vaati escapes and FS occurs. Ganondorf seizes the opportunity to steal the Dark Mirror unnoticed while Link is busy with Vaati. When Vaati is resealed, Ganondorf uses the Dark Mirror to force Link to take up the Four Sword again, releasing Vaati once more. While Vaati rampages, Ganondorf steals another artifact he's had his eye on: the Magic Trident. The Gerudo immediately decry him for pillaging a sacred artifact and Link eventually catches up to him with the help of the Shrine Maidens, sealing him in the Four Sword. Link then sets out to find a friend who's been missing for a while and ends up in Termina. What happened to him after saving Termina? Did he ever find his friend?

None remain who know. Thus ends the story of the Hero of Time.

Years pass and when the Shrine Maidens are eventually succeeded by the Sages of TP, Ganondorf is brought forth from the sword so that he may be properly executed. But in an unexpected turn of events, the execution fails when Ganondorf is revealed to possess the Triforce of Power! In desperation, the surviving Sages seal him in the Twilight Realm, but how did he get his hands on the sacred relic?

Was he, as he believes, suddenly 'chosen by the Gods'? If so, little wonder that he's so confident that Hyrule is rightfully his.

Or was it a result of the Hero of Time attempting to travel back with the Triforce of Courage to a time that already had its own Triforce of Courage? This is possible since we know he left his original ToC in the adult timeline - TWW tells us that when he left on his journey through time, the ToC shattered into 8 pieces. Perhaps in an effort to maintain balance, the adult ToC left Link and was replaced by the child ToC unbeknownst to him, keeping 3 Triforce pieces in each timeline but the sudden splitting of the Triforce in the child timeline sent the other two pieces to their respective holders. In this case, none of the 3 would have noticed anything: we already see in TP that Link doesn't realise he has the ToC until his life is endangered, whereupon the ToC activates on its own and transforms him into a wolf. So it's not unimaginable that, all this time, Ganondorf had the ToP and never realised it until his life was in danger.

Either way, the theory's not without merit.

I like this theory. I actually had a theory once placing FSA between OoT and TP. Of course I didn't go as far as say the Link froom OoT and FSA were the same Link but it could work I suppose. The only glaring plothole (that I'm concerned with at least) is why did the Sages execute Ganondorf if he was already imprisoned in the Four Sword? Did they not want to take any chances? Perhaps he broke free.

You theory has a few other kinks that need to be worked out but in general I agree with it. Personally though, I'd place MM between FS and FSA, with FSa being when Link returns to Hyrule. IMO, Link returns to Hyrule in MM"s ending which strongly hints that this is the case.

Notably without anyone recalling that he split into four people.

To be fair no one recalled Link returning from the future with valuable information about Ganondorf either. They just say he had many adventures in Hyrule. FS and FSA could be those adventures.

[CID Farwin]

To be fair no one recalled Link returning from the future with valuable information about Ganondorf either. They just say he had many adventures in Hyrule. FS and FSA could be those adventures.

To further the point; we're only told the legends and history that apply to the current game. This is how I argue that OoT can still be the Imprisoning War, even though ALttP may not come immediately after it.

And also, it's impossible for developers to make references to games that have not been made yet. That is of course unless time travel actually is possible in this reality...

[LionHarted]

The only glaring plothole (that I'm concerned with at least) is why did the Sages execute Ganondorf if he was already imprisoned in the Four Sword? Did they not want to take any chances? Perhaps he broke free.

Why are people still viewing this as a plothole?
The game answers this question:

"We overestimated our abilities as sages and attempted to put an end to his evil magic."

[Not 100% sure on the quote.]

[Chaltab]

The only glaring plothole (that I'm concerned with at least) is why did the Sages execute Ganondorf if he was already imprisoned in the Four Sword? Did they not want to take any chances? Perhaps he broke free.

Why are people still viewing this as a plothole?
The game answers this question:

"We overestimated our abilities as sages and attempted to put an end to his evil magic."

[Not 100% sure on the quote.]

But if he had been sealed in the Four Sword, his evil magic wouldn't be a problem.

[LionHarted]

But if he had been sealed in the Four Sword, his evil magic wouldn't be a problem.

Sure, if you say so. ;P

The power of the comparatively weaker Vaati was obviously didn't cease to be a problem, despite Four Sword seals, until he was killed, so one can only imagine why they would want to destroy Ganondorf altogether.

[Fyxe]

So they let him out, took him to a monolith in the desert, chained him up, tried to kill him, then they cocked up because apparently they're the most idiotic wise men in the universe, then sealed him in something entirely different?

You know what? I'm gonna say no. I'm also going to question why people bother to come up with these rediculously convoluted ideas. Especially when it flies in the face of what Aonuma has said as well.

[LionHarted]

So they let him out, took him to a monolith in the desert, chained him up, tried to kill him, then they cocked up because apparently they're the most idiotic wise men in the universe, then sealed him in something entirely different?

The fact that they didn't just seal him to begin with speaks volumes for their presumptuousness.

[Fyxe]

The fact that they didn't just seal him to begin with speaks volumes for their presumptuousness.

True, but the difference was that the Ganondorf from OoT, assuming the future events had not occured yet, had yet to show any indications of great, demonic power. He had merely attacked Hyrule Castle a bit and possibly done a few other things but nothing more than get himself captured. They did not know he had the ToP. If they had, their dialogue would make no sense, nor would their attempted execution.

However, the Ganon from FSA was armed with the trident and had turned into a gigantic monster. He effectively has the same power that the ToP offers. It's unclear if he even able to assume human form after his transformation. Much like Ganon in ALttP and TLoZ, there's no indication of him being anything but a demonic pig beast. In OoT and TP, he spends virtually all his time as human, and even after being beaten in OoT he reverts to human form when being sealed in the Dark World.

It's not logical that they would think 'I know, lets let out the HUGE FREAKIN' DEMON and chain it up and kill it with a little sword. Maybe he'll pop out as a human. Worth a shot, huh?'.

Then there's also the twisted logic of them sealing him in something entirely different rather than resealing him in the Four Sword.

Basically, TP following FSA is MADNESS and hell, it goes against the in-game dialogue.

[MikePetersSucks]

MADNESS

THIS! IS! HYRULE!

Sorry, had to.

[SOAP]

MADNESS

THIS! IS! HYRULE!

Sorry, had to.

If they ever make a Zelda movie, demand that line to be used in it. I don't care if a Zelda movie would inevitably suck, I would see it just for that.

[Fyxe]

MADNESS

THIS! IS! HYRULE!

Sorry, had to.

By all means. I left it open for that reply. Knew it would happen. XP

[Showsni]

Then there's also the twisted logic of them sealing him in something entirely different rather than resealing him in the Four Sword.

Wasn't the TP sealing a kind of snap response to a situation that suddenly got out of hand?

Anyway, OoT->FS->FSA with the same Link? I know geography considerations aren't generally a high consideration, but if there's just a few years between OoT and FSA you'd expect a lot more similarities.

[Fyxe]

Wasn't the TP sealing a kind of snap response to a situation that suddenly got out of hand?

In which case you would expect them to have the Four Sword nearby just on the off-chance that their rediculous plan to execute a gigantic demon who can bend dimensions just maybe went a tad wrong.

But no, they just so happened to have another conveniently placed and entirely unrelated object to seal him into. Instead of, I dunno, using the Four Sword instead. But no, we seem to have come to the conclusion that the SAGES are complete and utter morons of the highest order. Academia obviously ain't what it used to be.

[Chaltab]

It seems to me like the reasoning is based on a false premise to begin with. Why are you trying to make FSA come before TP? To link the two games' Mirrors, which is difficult since the Twilight Mirror was destroyed at the end of TP?

If this is the case, then I'd point out that the function of the two mirrors are very different: The Twilight Mirror reflects a pattern onto a special rock that then opens a portal into the Twilight Realm. The Dark Mirror simply creates Shadow Replicas.

It's true that both FSA and TP deal with a tribe sealed away within the mirror, and I'm sure the text refers the the Twilight Mirror. The Dark Mirror may be an attempted forgery, an attempted 're-make' constructed at a later date. But it is probably not the same physical object.

Edited by Chaltab, 17 November 2007 - 03:03 AM.

[LionHarted]

But no, we seem to have come to the conclusion that the SAGES are complete and utter morons of the highest order.

The sages came to that conclusion themselves, thank you.

"We overestimated our abilities as sages and attempted to put an end to his evil magic."

Silly sages. They should know that only the Master Sword can do that.

[Fyxe]

They didn't know he had the ToP. Else they would have used the Master Sword.

For fuck's sake, they're SAGES. I'd rather go with the explanation that makes them look unprepared rather than make them look like dropouts from the first year of Sage School. I mean, knowing that the Master Sword stops the Triforce's power is basic, basic stuff, if they didn't know that, then the title of Sage should not be applied to any of them.

[LionHarted]

They didn't know he had the ToP. Else they would have used the Master Sword.

Unless they can't use the Master Sword because none of them is the hero.

And if they don't know that the worst evil on the face of the planet touched the Triforce that they're supposed to guard, they're probably dumber than I'm making them out to be.

[Showsni]

Maybe Zelda touched it and the ToP flew to Ganon because she's unbalanced.

[LionHarted]

Maybe Zelda touched it and the ToP flew to Ganon because she's unbalanced.

Link has the ToC at a point before Ganondorf's execution.
Did Zelda touch the Diforce? Would it even have split if there were only two pieces?

Edited by LionHarted, 18 November 2007 - 09:03 PM.

[Showsni]

Maybe Zelda touched it and the ToP flew to Ganon because she's unbalanced.

Link has the ToC at a point before Ganondorf's execution.
Did Zelda touch the Diforce? Would it even have split if there were only two pieces?

How do you know that?

Link has the ToC... If you assume this event is a (direct) sequel to OoT, and Link retains the ToC in the past. If he's sent to after he's been in the SR, then the triforce has already split, so Ganon would have the ToP. If he's sent to beforehand, does he still have the ToC? Probably not; if you're using the absence of the Goron bracelet as an argument for this being earlier in the past, then he doesn't have the ToC for the same reason. So either the triforce has already split, or not at all.

[LionHarted]

I know it because Aonuma said that the meeting between Link and Zelda took place before the execution, and Link has the ToC then.

]Link has the ToC... If you assume this event is a (direct) sequel to OoT, and Link retains the ToC in the past. If he's sent to after he's been in the SR, then the triforce has already split, so Ganon would have the ToP.

I would assume neither, because he doesn't have the Triforce in his hand when he returns to the Temple of Time.

if you're using the absence of the Goron bracelet as an argument for this being earlier in the past

To do this, though, I'd have to ignore the presence [or lack thereof] of whatever shield he ought to have [or have not] (notably not respectively) been carrying. So, basically, you either have to wind up arguing that there was a programming inconsistency, or that there was a programming inconsistency.

Which logically means that appearance doesn't matter, in this case, since it's not necessarily reasonably consistent except under controlled circumstances (i.e., not equipping a Hylian Shield on Child Link).

Edited by LionHarted, 18 November 2007 - 09:22 PM.

[Showsni]

So... how do you know Link had the ToC before the execution, then?

[LionHarted]

Covered in the edit. [Top of post.]

Really, though, that should have been obvious, since Aonuma said the execution took place years later.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 November 2007 - 09:25 PM.

[Showsni]

Well, if Link gets the ToC in between arriving in the ToT and leaving for Termina, Ganondorf most likely gets the ToP at the same time. (Is that what you're saying?)

Doesn't make much sense that way, though - how does Link get the ToC? He's not stupid enough to open the door to the SR again, surely.

[LionHarted]

Well, if Link gets the ToC in between arriving in the ToT and leaving for Termina, Ganondorf most likely gets the ToP at the same time. (Is that what you're saying?)

Link gets the ToC because Ganondorf touched the Triforce.
That's what I'm saying.

He's not stupid enough to open the door to the SR again, surely.

Of course not.
What would be the point in shutting it?

Of course, it works doubly to his advantage (and is more conducive to Hyrule suddenly being at peace and Zelda being back in the Castle) if he shuts it and the big bad is already inside, Triforce or no Triforce. :]

Edited by LionHarted, 18 November 2007 - 09:48 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

It seems that the TP Sages are guardians of the Twilight Mirror, anyway, so I don't see why they have to be keeping tabs on the Triforce.

[Chaltab]

Of course, it works doubly to his advantage (and is more conducive to Hyrule suddenly being at peace and Zelda being back in the Castle) if he shuts it and the big bad is already inside, Triforce or no Triforce. :]

Then that raises the question how could he have been captured and executed as in the TP flashback? If you split the timeline, TWW clearly happens in the adult timeline. (He mentions gathering the three with the crests atop his Tower, for example.)

And if you don't split, you must assume that Ganondorf escaped somehow and was captured anyway.

[Fyxe]

Unless they can't use the Master Sword because none of them is the hero.

In which case they wouldn't try to kill him by themselves, would they? Your point is becoming self-defeating. o.o

And if they don't know that the worst evil on the face of the planet touched the Triforce that they're supposed to guard, they're probably dumber than I'm making them out to be.

The Sages in TP were guarding the Twilight Mirror, not the Triforce.