215 replies to this topic

[Showsni]

If Links remembers to have found Rupees hidden in grass (put by Minish), in his dream it's natural taht they appear hidden in grass in Koholint

That covers Koholint.
Doesn't cover the Sacred Realm.

No but Ganon's personal image of Hyrule (hidden items and all) covers the Dark World. I'll grant you the fact that hopping Armos Statues and walking Armos Statues are different, but they're both Armos Statues and until there's even an indication that the hopping ones have different inventors to the walking ones, I'll assume they're of the same origin. Anyway, the Armos Statues of the TotG and the ToT in TWW and TP respectively could easily have been built by Minish.

LoZ Armos statues, however, definitely aren't created by the Minish, since they're soldiers that were turned to stone by magic.

And the Minish could easily have come to Hyrule before the Hero of Men story.

[Prime Blue]

Didn't Aonuma state that TMC was the oldest story in the series?
I swore I remember seeing that in an interview.

You mean that one?

Zelda: The interview! (17.11.04)

NoE: How does the Minish Cap fit into the Zelda chronology? Is it a prequel to the upcoming The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures on GameCube?

Aonuma: Yes, this title takes place prior to The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures, and tells the secret of the birth of the Four Sword.

[LionHarted]

Except that quote doesn't say it's first; just before FSA.

[Arturo]

Aonuma stated once taht the story of the Light Force was a very old story.

[LionHarted]

Every story in Zelda is a "very old" story.
Otherwise they wouldn't be, you know, legends.

[Prime Blue]

Except that quote doesn't say it's first; just before FSA.

That quote alone not, you're right.
It could state it's the oldest tale however, if combined with the information of the Game Informer interview.

Aonuma: The GBA Four Swords Zelda is what we?re thinking as the oldest tale in the Zelda timeline. With this one on the GameCube being a sequel to that, and taking place sometime after that.

Or has that interview been nullified by more recent quotes? I'm not really into that timeline mumbo-jumbo.

[LionHarted]

That interview was nullified by the fact that he said in the same interview that he had nothing to do with FS, and in another where he said he had nothing to do with FSA, coupled with the fact that FS is clearly a direct prequel to FSA, and FSA clearly doesn't fall before OoT.

[Evilsbane]

That interview was nullified by the fact that he said in the same interview that he had nothing to do with FS, and in another where he said he had nothing to do with FSA, coupled with the fact that FS is clearly a direct prequel to FSA, and FSA clearly doesn't fall before OoT.

No, it doesn't fall before OoT but one could argue that in a split timeline it falls INSTEAD of adult OoT.

[LionHarted]

No, it doesn't fall before OoT but one could argue that in a split timeline it falls INSTEAD of adult OoT.

By "before OoT" I obviously meant "before/during the OoT story arc."

i.e., the maiden descendants of the sages (FSA) appearing while the sages are still alive (TP) really doesn't fly.

[Evilsbane]

No, it doesn't fall before OoT but one could argue that in a split timeline it falls INSTEAD of adult OoT.

By "before OoT" I obviously meant "before/during the OoT story arc."

i.e., the maiden descendants of the sages (FSA) appearing while the sages are still alive (TP) really doesn't fly.

Excuse me? You've discovered proof that the Shrine Maidens are descendants of whom?

[LionHarted]

You've discovered proof that the Shrine Maidens are descendants of whom?

So Maidens who protect Hyrule appeared alongside/before the sages who protect Hyrule before the Maidens who are descended from the sages who protected Hyrule emerge?

[Evilsbane]

You've discovered proof that the Shrine Maidens are descendants of whom?

So Maidens who protect Hyrule appeared alongside/before the sages who protect Hyrule before the Maidens who are descended from the sages who protected Hyrule emerge?

Given the unneccesary complexity of your question, can I take it that you're looking for an answer longer than 'yes'?

[FDL]

FSA isn't adult OoT's replacement...

[Evilsbane]

FSA isn't adult OoT's replacement...

This is where most people would follow up with 'because...'

[FDL]

FSA isn't adult OoT's replacement...

This is where most people would follow up with 'because...'

I have, more than once. There are several inconsistencies with the Gerudo in OoT and FSA, for one. Plus, it involves Ganon being foiled three times and sealed twice in a short amount of time. There are other things as well, but that's sufficient for now, I think.

[LionHarted]

Personally, I think FSA's Ganon is inserted to add a new backstory to ALttP's (since they obviously killed off OoT's).

[Evilsbane]

Plus, it involves Ganon being foiled three times and sealed twice in a short amount of time.

By this, I assume you mean that FS/FSA, TP and ALttP are too close together (in that order)? In which case, I'd say that the popular theory of TP->FS/FSA->ALttP would be about as close.

Edited by Evilsbane, 08 November 2007 - 12:42 PM.

[FDL]

Actually I mean that in a span of a couple years at most all that happens. If I remember your theory correctly, you said that Ganondorf is first foiled in OoT, then runs off into the desert and steals the Trident. After that he is sealed in the Four Sword and then breaks out and is sealed in the Twilight Realm soon after. That's what I meant. But there's still quite a few other inconsistencies as well, not the least of which being the differences between the Gerudo of OoT and the Gerudo of FSA, as well as the status of the Triforce.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 08 November 2007 - 04:47 PM.

[LionHarted]

Not to mention that Ganon (the demon) is referenced as an ancient threat in FSA, while Ganondorf is simultaneously a complete unknown, neither of which makes much sense with OoT's scenario.

[SOAP]

Not to mention that Ganon (the demon) is referenced as an ancient threat in FSA, while Ganondorf is simultaneously a complete unknown, neither of which makes much sense with OoT's scenario.

Actually Ganondorf is known. The connection with Ganon is what's unknown. Ganondorf is known as an insignificant nomad from the desert who disregarded his people's laws and entered some sacred temple. What happened to him after that is unknown and no one seems to care much but no one connects him with an ancient demons since he was born in their time. This initially lead me to believe that FSA Ganondorf was some angsty teenager that rebelled against his tribe and and got inadvertadently possesed by the original Ganondorf.

[Evilsbane]

Actually I mean that in a span of a couple years at most all that happens. If I remember your theory correctly, you said that Ganondorf is first foiled in OoT, then runs off into the desert and steals the Trident. After that he is sealed in the Four Sword and then breaks out and is sealed in the Twilight Realm soon after. That's what I meant. But there's still quite a few other inconsistencies as well, not the least of which being the differences between the Gerudo of OoT and the Gerudo of FSA, as well as the status of the Triforce.

Well, you got it mostly right, but here's the actual theory:
Ganon is an ancient demon. Twinrova reincarnate him in Gerudo form (they are not his mothers but rather his 'surrogate' mothers) named Ganondorf. OoT happens, and at the end Link gets sent back in time and prevents Ganondorf from getting into the Sacred Realm by simply not attempting to get in himself. Ganondorf, having no other way to get into the Sacred Realm (evil ones can't touch the Master Sword) decides to come back to the problem later, after accruing more power. This means that none (or very little) of OoT actually happened in the child timeline (Twinrova doesn't die, the original Sages aren't wiped out, the Gerudo don't turn to evil but instead continue their noble nomadic existence and the new Sages of OoT fame aren't awakened), and Ganondorf continues his 'loyal ally of the king' charade. He turns his attentions to other magical artifacts such as a Mirror in which a dark tribe was sealed...

Meanwhile Link, now a friend of Zelda, is called by her to help her inspect a seal cast over an ancient relic known as the Four Sword. Vaati escapes and FS occurs. Ganondorf seizes the opportunity to steal the Dark Mirror unnoticed while Link is busy with Vaati. When Vaati is resealed, Ganondorf uses the Dark Mirror to force Link to take up the Four Sword again, releasing Vaati once more. While Vaati rampages, Ganondorf steals another artifact he's had his eye on: the Magic Trident. The Gerudo immediately decry him for pillaging a sacred artifact and Link eventually catches up to him with the help of the Shrine Maidens, sealing him in the Four Sword. Link then sets out to find a friend who's been missing for a while and ends up in Termina. What happened to him after saving Termina? Did he ever find his friend?

None remain who know. Thus ends the story of the Hero of Time.

Years pass and when the Shrine Maidens are eventually succeeded by the Sages of TP, Ganondorf is brought forth from the sword so that he may be properly executed. But in an unexpected turn of events, the execution fails when Ganondorf is revealed to possess the Triforce of Power! In desperation, the surviving Sages seal him in the Twilight Realm, but how did he get his hands on the sacred relic?

Was he, as he believes, suddenly 'chosen by the Gods'? If so, little wonder that he's so confident that Hyrule is rightfully his.

Or was it a result of the Hero of Time attempting to travel back with the Triforce of Courage to a time that already had its own Triforce of Courage? This is possible since we know he left his original ToC in the adult timeline - TWW tells us that when he left on his journey through time, the ToC shattered into 8 pieces. Perhaps in an effort to maintain balance, the adult ToC left Link and was replaced by the child ToC unbeknownst to him, keeping 3 Triforce pieces in each timeline but the sudden splitting of the Triforce in the child timeline sent the other two pieces to their respective holders. In this case, none of the 3 would have noticed anything: we already see in TP that Link doesn't realise he has the ToC until his life is endangered, whereupon the ToC activates on its own and transforms him into a wolf. So it's not unimaginable that, all this time, Ganondorf had the ToP and never realised it until his life was in danger.

Either way, the theory's not without merit.

[LionHarted]

Years pass and when the Shrine Maidens are eventually succeeded by the Sages of TP, Ganondorf is brought forth from the sword so that he may be properly executed.

1) What Ganondorf? Ganondorf is now Ganon, the demon king of darkness.
2) This is about as logical as the sages removing him from the Sacred Realm to execute him (and this is not sarcasm; I argued this), and if that can happen, there can actually be a single timeline, despite Aonuma's comments about what Link did in the past affecting the future, and Ganondorf being captured and executed as a result.

Edited by LionHarted, 09 November 2007 - 01:18 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Well, you got it mostly right, but here's the actual theory:
Ganon is an ancient demon. Twinrova reincarnate him in Gerudo form (they are not his mothers but rather his 'surrogate' mothers) named Ganondorf. OoT happens, and at the end Link gets sent back in time and prevents Ganondorf from getting into the Sacred Realm by simply not attempting to get in himself. Ganondorf, having no other way to get into the Sacred Realm (evil ones can't touch the Master Sword) decides to come back to the problem later, after accruing more power. This means that none (or very little) of OoT actually happened in the child timeline (Twinrova doesn't die, the original Sages aren't wiped out, the Gerudo don't turn to evil but instead continue their noble nomadic existence and the new Sages of OoT fame aren't awakened), and Ganondorf continues his 'loyal ally of the king' charade. He turns his attentions to other magical artifacts such as a Mirror in which a dark tribe was sealed...

Meanwhile Link, now a friend of Zelda, is called by her to help her inspect a seal cast over an ancient relic known as the Four Sword. Vaati escapes and FS occurs. Ganondorf seizes the opportunity to steal the Dark Mirror unnoticed while Link is busy with Vaati. When Vaati is resealed, Ganondorf uses the Dark Mirror to force Link to take up the Four Sword again, releasing Vaati once more. While Vaati rampages, Ganondorf steals another artifact he's had his eye on: the Magic Trident. The Gerudo immediately decry him for pillaging a sacred artifact and Link eventually catches up to him with the help of the Shrine Maidens, sealing him in the Four Sword. Link then sets out to find a friend who's been missing for a while and ends up in Termina. What happened to him after saving Termina? Did he ever find his friend?

None remain who know. Thus ends the story of the Hero of Time.

Years pass and when the Shrine Maidens are eventually succeeded by the Sages of TP, Ganondorf is brought forth from the sword so that he may be properly executed. But in an unexpected turn of events, the execution fails when Ganondorf is revealed to possess the Triforce of Power! In desperation, the surviving Sages seal him in the Twilight Realm, but how did he get his hands on the sacred relic?

Was he, as he believes, suddenly 'chosen by the Gods'? If so, little wonder that he's so confident that Hyrule is rightfully his.

Or was it a result of the Hero of Time attempting to travel back with the Triforce of Courage to a time that already had its own Triforce of Courage? This is possible since we know he left his original ToC in the adult timeline - TWW tells us that when he left on his journey through time, the ToC shattered into 8 pieces. Perhaps in an effort to maintain balance, the adult ToC left Link and was replaced by the child ToC unbeknownst to him, keeping 3 Triforce pieces in each timeline but the sudden splitting of the Triforce in the child timeline sent the other two pieces to their respective holders. In this case, none of the 3 would have noticed anything: we already see in TP that Link doesn't realise he has the ToC until his life is endangered, whereupon the ToC activates on its own and transforms him into a wolf. So it's not unimaginable that, all this time, Ganondorf had the ToP and never realised it until his life was in danger.

Either way, the theory's not without merit.

That...almost works!

It's been a while since I've seen a theory with this much merit.

[MikePetersSucks]

Except for the glaring plotholes.

[Evilsbane]

Years pass and when the Shrine Maidens are eventually succeeded by the Sages of TP, Ganondorf is brought forth from the sword so that he may be properly executed.

1) What Ganondorf? Ganondorf is now Ganon, the demon king of darkness.

Evilsbane directs your attention to OoT->TWW, where Ganondorf transforms into Ganon during the final battle but is back to Ganondorf form in time for TWW (in fact, he's already transformed back in OoT while sealed in the Sacred Realm, where he swears to eradicate the descendants of the Sages). If this is possible in the adult timeline, I honestly don't see why he can't do it in the child timeline.

2) This is about as logical as the sages removing him from the Sacred Realm to execute him (and this is not sarcasm; I argued this), and if that can happen, there can actually be a single timeline, despite Aonuma's comments about what Link did in the past affecting the future, and Ganondorf being captured and executed as a result.

While I agree that it's as logical, Aonouma has decided where TP lies and THAT is the reason TP is where it is. My theory, while no more logical, hasn't been disproven on the other hand.

and Mike: You're right. I DID miss something. I will amend it now by saying that perhaps the Shrine Maidens ARE the TP Sages in a different form - the TP Sages SHOULD include Rauru (he was one of the original, ancient Sages before the split and so should be a Sage in the child timeline too), so the fact that they're all ghostly masked figures in TP may mean they shapeshift. Was that what you meant, that the Shrine Maidens couldn't be the original Sages because there's no Rauru?

Also, if Link's adventure in OoT doesn't happen in the child timeline, then the quote that 'Four Swords is what we're thinking is the oldest tale' is true - in the child timeline, it happens instead of OoT.

Edited by Evilsbane, 10 November 2007 - 11:41 AM.

[CID Farwin]

Except for the glaring plotholes.

I said almost.

[LionHarted]

1) Because Ganon from OoT and TWW was never referenced as having been "once human" (that is, no longer human), and FSA Ganon was?

2) Aonuma decided that TP was at least a hundred years after an exection that happened a few years after OoT, and that Link went back in time and, via a conversation with Zelda, did something to change his and Zelda's relationship with Ganondorf. Please explain to me how this can't happen in tandem with TWW. It also seems that Aonuma decided that TP Link isn't related to OoT Link (and, if I recall, that the same extended to the Zeldas), despite TP itself talking about a hero's bloodline quite profusely, and Link very obviously having inherited the Triforce of Courage.

Edited by LionHarted, 11 November 2007 - 01:02 PM.

[Evilsbane]

1) Because Ganon from OoT and TWW was never referenced as having been "once human" (that is, no longer human), and FSA Ganon was?

I think you might be reading too much into that! Even if he was 'once human', there's no reason to believe he can't transform back, as I've said.

2) Aonuma decided that TP was at least a hundred years after an exection that happened a few years after OoT, and that Link went back in time and, via a conversation with Zelda, did something to change his and Zelda's relationship with Ganondorf. Please explain to me how this can't happen in tandem with TWW.

Because the games are parallel. As I've said however, if you ignore that particular interview then your theory is as valid as mine.

It also seems that Aonuma decided that TP Link isn't related to OoT Link (and, if I recall, that the same extended to the Zeldas), despite TP itself talking about a hero's bloodline quite profusely, and Link very obviously having inherited the Triforce of Courage.

He may have been trying to say that they're different Links, since there are still fans (few, but they exist) that are convinced that all games feature the same Link. However, I don't recall that particular developer quote so I could be wrong.

[Chaltab]

Not to mention that Ganon (the demon) is referenced as an ancient threat in FSA, while Ganondorf is simultaneously a complete unknown, neither of which makes much sense with OoT's scenario.

Actually Ganondorf is known. The connection with Ganon is what's unknown. Ganondorf is known as an insignificant nomad from the desert who disregarded his people's laws and entered some sacred temple. What happened to him after that is unknown and no one seems to care much but no one connects him with an ancient demons since he was born in their time. This initially lead me to believe that FSA Ganondorf was some angsty teenager that rebelled against his tribe and and got inadvertadently possesed by the original Ganondorf.

This is asically how I see it. Not necessarily even possessed, though; it's possible that FSA Ganondorf was simply a reincarnation that needed the Trident to 'unlock' his full powers, since he no longer had the Triforce of Power.

[LionHarted]

I think you might be reading too much into that!

I might just be assuming that details being mentioned have actual relevance, maybe.

Because the games are parallel. As I've said however, if you ignore that particular interview then your theory is as valid as mine.

Because that's not open for interpretation at all, especially given the hero references in TP.

He may have been trying to say that they're different Links

He said quite pointedly that they're not related.