1345 replies to this topic

[Mirren]

Yeah, I much prefer Ike in the Lord costume as well.

Fyxe got it right about this update, it's a good sign that Ike isn't just a Marth or Roy clone. Not only are his attacks apparently very different, but his style of play is, too.

[Captain-N 2000]

I have to admit, the Smash Bros. series was great. It introduced me to a lot of Nintendo franchises that I play up to this day whereas before then, I never really gave them much thought. Smash Bros. has done a great job promoting the Nintendo franchises and making them recognized. It's because of Smash Bros. that I've collected a wide variety of video games.

But have you guys seen any of the Smash Bros. Melee battles? They're insane. There's many techniques they have that I never found out about until about a year ago (i.e. wave-dashing, L-cancelling, Directional Influence, Chain throwing, edge-hogging, etc.) Smash was a more competitive game than I thought. I actually took the time to learn some of those techniques and my skills in Smash Bros. improved dramatically. Take a look at SmashBoards if you want to know more details about the techniques, or you can go to YouTube to see how the techniques are done. A guy called GERM plays a pretty good Link.

Right now, I can't wait for Brawl. They may keep the physics of the game, and they may also change the priorities of some of the characters.

...And I'm still waiting for Diddy Kong to be a selectable character.

[vodkamaru]

[random thought]
It would be great if instead of alternate colors for characters they had alternate costumes from different generations. It probably wouldn't work out too well because I'm sure the characters' proportions have changed over the years, but I thought it would be cool to have the NES, SNES, N64 versions and so on as alternate costumes. Game & watch was the only 2D model in melee, but I'd like it if they just went all the way and had 2D Samus, Mario, Link, DK, Bowser, and so on. I figure Nintendo is nostalgic enough with their own characters that it could be a far off possibility.
[/random thought]

[joeymartin64]

Why couldn't they do both? Alternate colors within alternate costumes have been done before. Only game I've personally seen it in is KOF: Maximum Impact 2/2006, but yeah, it can totally be done. Don't know about the 2D models thing, though. I just see alternate costumes like Dr. Mario, plumber Wario. Ideally, though less realistically, a few various Link costume designs, as well.

Edited by joeymartin64, 08 August 2007 - 02:01 AM.

[Masamune]

I've long thought that was a good idea. In fact I've always thought it would be nice to go ahead and take it a step further. Alternate outfits could act kind of like 'clone characters'. For instance, I like clone characters. Ganondorf's moveset was great, whereas Captain Falcon was only so-so with it. If Ganondorf gets a new moveset, that leaves a great Melee character left behind. The solution?

Characters have separate costumes with different stats. These are different from color swaps. For instance, Captain Falcon could have a costume swap to Blood Falcon. Blood Falcon would basically have similar stats to Melee Ganondorf. Dr. Mario could be a costume swap of Mario with the same stats as the Melee Doctor. Then you could have Samus have a costume swap to Dark Samus who moves slower and has stronger attacks. It opens a number of possibilities that way. I don't do 3D models myself... but if they're designing all these fully animated Assist Trophies, how hard could it be to apply that to a clone?

[Fyxe]

The difficulty is the balancing. Every time you add a clone, it increases the number of variables that need to be considered when balancing your characters. Adding so many clones greatly increases the chance of a cheap move getting through the cracks. Smash Bros. has much more to consider than your average fighting game, due to the trajectories for attacks, the knockback ratio of attacks (which is different from the strength), recovery, whether specific opponents can be comboed more easily than others leading to an unfair advantage against specific characters, and so on.

However, considering the fact that we have not seen any costume changes whatsoever so far, I have a strong suspicion that they'll be more varied than Melee's simple colour changes. I would expect to see Wario in his retro outfit, and Link maybe in the Magic Armour, or something like that. I would also expect to see Blood Falcon and Daisy again, and possibly more alternates like that. Personally I would like it if the voices and names of the characters changed to suit the visual difference, even if there's no gameplay difference.

[DarkJuno]

Pretty much everyone's exrpressed a desire for the alternate outfits to be actual full fledged changes rather then just color swaps at one point or another - hell, Pikachu got hats last time, after all. I mean, not all the color changes are bad - it makes perfect sense for Yoshi, and even Link's alternate colors are mostly from the different tunics he'd worn in OoT or even the first game.

Or as joey pointed out, KoFMI basically did nothing but color change a couple different costumes, but they managed to get a lot of different outfits out of it, and they all represented something besides "Oh ho, Mai decided to wear purple instead of red!" They were usually ripping off another character, sorta in the same way we got Fire Mario, Fire Luigi, Daisy, and Blood Falcon outfits in Melee.

Ideally, yeah, I want to see Fusion Samus, Frog Mario, original Wario, Sparky the Pikachu, Nurse Peach, and all that, but eh, it works.

[Chaltab]

Masamune, on Aug 8 2007, 03:36 PM, said:

I've long thought that was a good idea. In fact I've always thought it would be nice to go ahead and take it a step further. Alternate outfits could act kind of like 'clone characters'. For instance, I like clone characters. Ganondorf's moveset was great, whereas Captain Falcon was only so-so with it. If Ganondorf gets a new moveset, that leaves a great Melee character left behind. The solution?

Characters have separate costumes with different stats. These are different from color swaps. For instance, Captain Falcon could have a costume swap to Blood Falcon. Blood Falcon would basically have similar stats to Melee Ganondorf. Dr. Mario could be a costume swap of Mario with the same stats as the Melee Doctor. Then you could have Samus have a costume swap to Dark Samus who moves slower and has stronger attacks. It opens a number of possibilities that way. I don't do 3D models myself... but if they're designing all these fully animated Assist Trophies, how hard could it be to apply that to a clone?

I've been thinking this for years, but Fyxe is right that it would definitely make balancing more difficult. It's something I definitely think Nintendo should look into, though, because it would allow the inclusion of alternates and 'clones' without them taking up an entirely new character slot.

Either way, this game is still my most anticipated release this year. December 03 can't come soon enough.

[joeymartin64]

Altering names and voices to match costume swaps (Daisy) would be very nice, but I'm a bit hesitant to support stat and move changes for them. At that point, I say a full character slot is warranted, even with a similar moveset. I can see both sides, though.

Edited by joeymartin64, 08 August 2007 - 07:26 PM.

[Captain-N 2000]

vodkamaru, on Aug 7 2007, 11:06 PM, said:

It would be great if instead of alternate colors for characters they had alternate costumes from different generations. It probably wouldn't work out too well because I'm sure the characters' proportions have changed over the years, but I thought it would be cool to have the NES, SNES, N64 versions and so on as alternate costumes. Game & watch was the only 2D model in melee, but I'd like it if they just went all the way and had 2D Samus, Mario, Link, DK, Bowser, and so on. I figure Nintendo is nostalgic enough with their own characters that it could be a far off possibility.
[/random thought]

It's a good thought, but Nintendo could only do so much with Brawl to have so many alternate costumes. The alternate-color ideas were not a problem. I just hope that they don't have too many clones like they did in Melee. I saw Ganondorf on Smash Melee, and I was actually excited until he started fighting like Captain Falcon. Ganondorf is his own person. If they want Ganondorf to return, I hope that they change his fighting style. Doctor Mario, I also wasn't sure about when I saw him. You already had a regular Mario. But they may keep him since he was such a good character in Melee. Falco and Fox, I could somewhat see. And Pichu, I don't think, was really necessary, and maybe not even young Link since they already had the adult. I feel that there were too many of clones on Melee.

[Mad Scrub]

Pokemon Trainer. Interesting. It'll be even more interesting if you can unlock Pokemon other than Charizard, Ivysaur and Squirtle.

That said it probably won't happen.

[Fyxe]

Who needs anymore? The original three were the best anyway.

Pleasedon'tgivehimAsh'svoicepleasedon'tgivehimAsh'svoicepleasedon'tgivehimAsh'svoice.

This is a rather cool update, I've always thought Charizard would be a great choice for a playable Pokemon.

[Hero of Legend]

I dreamt about playing as a Pokemon Trainer in Melee... Heh, it looks like that dream will come true. Very interesting. Game is made of Awesome, yes? Well, except the stages...

[Fyxe]

Hello, we just had an awesome FE stage revealed, like, the other week. And the Yoshi's Island and Eldin Bridge stages look brill too. Give them a chance, there's gonna be many many more stages to go.

[Sety II]

Then there was the god awful Ice Mountain clone DK stage.

[Hero of Legend]

Fyxe said

Hello, we just had an awesome FE stage revealed, like, the other week. And the Yoshi's Island and Eldin Bridge stages look brill too. Give them a chance, there's gonna be many many more stages to go.

Yet most of the stages are nothing but a few platforms floating over a small, flat area. They're nothing compared to the effort that obviously go into the other aspects of the games, and hence they are the least awesome part. One or two good stages hardly make up for the not-so-good ones. And yes, there could be better ones later, but we don't know about those yet.

Sety II said

Then there was the god awful Ice Mountain clone DK stage.

That was one of the better ones thus far. Just because it is an upwards scrolling stage doesn't mean it's a rip-off. The design is plenty different, and there's an end point, which the Ice Mountain didn't have.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 13 August 2007 - 04:50 AM.

[Sety II]

Hero of Legend, on Aug 13 2007, 10:47 AM, said:

Sety II said

Then there was the god awful Ice Mountain clone DK stage.

That was one of the better ones thus far. Just because it is an upwards scrolling stage doesn't mean it's a rip-off. The design is plenty different, and there's an end point, which the Ice Mountain didn't have.

You've missed the point.

A rip-off is fine, I'd love a ripoff Cornelia. A rip off a really awful stage to play on to begin with is god awful.

I've lost count of the times people would ban that stage in friendly, casual and competitive games because its so poorly designed that its impossible to get a good fight on it.

The ammount of times I've seen the argument "it takes skill to play that stage" is silly. Eventually they get their own words rammed so far down their throat they're unable to breathe when they find they've been destroyed 10 stocks to 0 without even throwing a punch because they keep getting thrown off the edge at 5% or less health.

Its the extreme polar opposite of Hyrule Temple where its impossible to kill anyone because it turns into a game of cat and mouse in the catacombs. Except you can get a decent fight in friendly games when people aren't hell bent on winning so its still good for that.

Its one of those stages which is a really fun novelty in the single player/adventure or great to look at but when you do multiplayer it should never be touched if you want something resembling a fight.

Edited by Sety II, 13 August 2007 - 05:55 AM.

[Fyxe]

I like Icicle Mountain.

The main problem was that it was not wide enough.

The new stage is much wider.

Therefore fixed.

The designers aren't morons.

The end.

[Hero of Legend]

Sety II said

You've missed the point.

I entertained the possibility that you were coming down on the original stage, but I never really saw a problem with it. Really, both players have as much chance to be thrown of the edge, so it?s not really an issue with the stage so much as it is with the player if he doesn?t like that.

[SnowsilverKat]

People had trouble playing on Icicle Mountain? That's news to me, my college group played on it when we were just playing casually, and we never really got any complaints when it popped up. You might as well complain that Flat Zone was too small, or that Big Blue changed around fast, or that Brinstar Depths kept spinning around. It was just the stage mechanic. Maybe other people didn't like it because it liked to scroll up and down, but at least my group there was never any complaints.

Chances are when Brawl goes competitive they're just going to regulate levels to the game's version of Final Destination anyway, and take away items. Party Poopers.

As today's update, I don't know if I'm too keen on the Pokémon trainer. I mean, we had the 'Pokémon Battle' event in Melee which was kind of neat, but there's already a large number of Pokéball items, I don't know if having another playable character (or three) is...necessary. Yeah, I know some people are excited about it, and I'm glad for them, but color me slightly 'meh.'

[Green Goblin]

I always hate Icicle mountain. It was the only stage I ever took off of Random. I love me some Big Blue and Pokefloats though.

Maybe it is just the lack of jumping space mixed with hte constant scrolling up or down that did it for me.

[D~N]

Pokemon Trainer...Oh my goodness, that's AWESOME. The strategy involved in playing as this dude could be (probably WILL be) so much fun. Oh man, this is gunna rock so hard.

On the note of "bad stages"...um, what?! O.o Seriously, the stages shown thus far are awesome. Bridge of Eldin, Pit's level (whose name I forget), DK Mountain! Not to mention that Smashvile has a huge amount of potential, and playing on battlefield actually looks like it could be fun this time around (day->twilight->nightfall!!!). And that's just the begining. We also know that we're getting a Mario Kart level, which is gunna be hella-fun. And we haven't even seen a stage for half the people! Bowser; who doesn't think we're gunna get some wicked sick Bowser's Castle. Samus's levels never fail to result in a fun match. And that's just the begining! Then you must remember that every fighter-group is probably going to get two-three stages! Trust these developers, they know what they're doing.

[Sety II]

Quote

People had trouble playing on Icicle Mountain? That's news to me, my college group played on it when we were just playing casually, and we never really got any complaints when it popped up. You might as well complain that Flat Zone was too small, or that Big Blue changed around fast, or that Brinstar Depths kept spinning around.

Nobody has trouble playing Icicle Mountain, its the fact you can't get a fight out of it when your spending more time jumping than attacking. The stage moves faster than you half the time. Most people want to beat the crap out of each other, not play Super Mario Bros.

Also actually Flat Zone is sometimes removed for the same reasons as Icicle Mountain but its actually more tolerable because at least the stage doesn't bounce around randomly up and down and you'll find many still play it.

Theres no problem with Brinstar Depths considering you kinda deserve to die if you don't see it changing.

Big Blue's track is actually fine given the speed it changes is actually extremely slow, platforms are big and the track actually makes for interesting plays where some people actually will jump under the road only to pop out at another point.

Quote

Really, both players have as much chance to be thrown of the edge, so it’s not really an issue with the stage so much as it is with the player if he doesn’t like that.

Actually its to do with the fact that there isn't a equal chance. Some characters with no jumping ability will never keep up with the screen and others with strong low damage throws will always score cheap KO's with no effort on others who have to keep jumping.

Quote

Maybe it is just the lack of jumping space mixed with hte constant scrolling up or down that did it for me.

Thats pretty much it for all who hate it. Along with the fact that its completely random. There wouldn't be near as much hate for it if the stage only scrolled up or down and not both.

Edited by Sety II, 13 August 2007 - 11:32 AM.

[DarkJuno]

I would've prefered if they just went ahead and made it Satoshi/Ash outright with Bulbasaur, Squirtle, and Charizard, but eh, it works. Could've at least called him "Red" though.

At the very least, have Matsumoto Rica/Sarah Nata-whateverhernameis- do the voice work for him.

[JRPomazon]

Hey, is the Franklin Badge from Earthbound?

[31-Year-Old-From-Georgia]

JRPomazon, on Aug 13 2007, 05:49 PM, said:

Hey, is the Franklin Badge from Earthbound?

Yeah, I think so. I kinda enjoyed the "Why does it say 'Mother' on it?"/"Why not!?" joke. Video game name changes humor. :x

Anyways, ZOMG best character evur. Well, maybe not, but I'm in ranting fanboy mode. Whoring out is the last thing Kanto needs, but it makes sense as the first gen is the most well-known. But really... Red (or whatever you want to call him). In Super Smash Bros. :D I wonder if you can somehow change him into Leaf/Blue? Or perhaps the characters from the other games, with their starters too? I doubt it.

By the way, I friggin hate Icicle Mountain. It's the only stage from either game I just can't stand (although its music is cool). If that... means anything. @_@

Edited by 15-Year-Old, 13 August 2007 - 09:46 PM.

[joeymartin64]

Yeah, the Franklin Badge deflected lightning attacks in EarthBound/Mother 2. It also deflected PK Beam Gamma (an insta-kill) in the first Mother, and evidently plays a more important role in Mother 3, while reprising its anti-lightning schtick (I think.) I expect it won't be exactly like Fox's Reflector; I'm guessing it only affects energy-based projectiles (like Ness' Psi Magnet does) but don't hold me to that. What's awesome is that the item is made to look exactly like the novelty Franklin Badges that were packaged with Mother game pre-orders.

I'm guessing he's not called "Red" because color swaps might replace him with other playable trainers. Maybe.

Edited by joeymartin64, 13 August 2007 - 11:25 PM.

[SnowsilverKat]

Hey, maybe it'll let you import your Pokémon Battle Revolution custom trainer?

[Keen]

Pokemon Trainer, eh? Not bad, not bad. I'm not surprised some people are disappointed, but if the developers could make everyone happy about everything in the game, they'd have to be more powerful than reality itself, which is only slightly possible.

By the way, it's called Infinite Glacier, goshdarnit. But nobody plays it enough to notice this. Heck, I personally don't enjoy it, but some people would rather jump than fight, and I respect that.

[joeymartin64]

It's "Infinite Glacier: Icicle Mountain." Like "Mushroom Kingdom: Peach's Castle" or "Eagleland: Onett."

Edited by joeymartin64, 14 August 2007 - 12:34 AM.