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The Perfect Split Timeline


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#331 LionHarted

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 08:48 PM

KnS is canon.

Maybe. I could include it for kicks, but I don't think it matters. It's inclusion would show how the MS could be in OoX, but I'm not sure we should worry about... Easter Eggs.

The main pillar is the 'ALttP vs. TWW' conflict, adressed so neatly by Arturo.

What conflict? Summarize it in a paragraph or two.

So what?! How in hell does that imply a chonological connection between the two games?

It implies that the "ALttP vs. TWW" conflict doesn't exist, because the terminology is the same.

You sound ridiculous, know that? That logo was never used in the eventual game, since it's simply not apt to show the Master Sword in the logo of a game that doesn't even involve that sword.

Two words: Developer intentions.

:blink: Outta ya mind?! How the hell does this imply that Spectactle Rock cannot appear in both timelines just the same?

Spectacle Rock doesn't appear in OoT.

Aha, so it's irrelevant if I tell you that doesn't matter? What a nice little 'arro-iggy' we have here!

I have never said that any form of in-game evidence "doesn't matter."

Again: How the hell does this imply that the Knights cannot appear in both timelines just the same?

It doesn't. It shows that the Knights are in the OoT era, which supports OoT=SW.

Yes, the title-giving Ancient Stone Tablets. Well, I'm currently in the middle of the game, so I don't know how exactly they work, but Fyxe will be able to give you a competent answer.

I was talking to Fyxe, who said that the Dark World never disappeared.

Okay it's true, I admit that. :whistle: But that's due to the fact that I haven't finished KnS yet. I don't know if the Dark World never vanished or was brought back by Ganon's stone tablets.

We'll see. As long as it doesn't contradict other things, it might could be admitted. Potentially. Although it can be left out rather easily, and without causing any problems whatsoever.

Couldn't Showsni ask LionHarted (and MoALttP) to put up a Split Timeline into their signature? After all, at the beginning Mohammedali set up the prerequisite that in this thread no Single Timeliners may trouble us others with their pathetic "two Imprisoning Wars" whining.

There are two either way. One takes place in OoT, and one in FSA. They aren't necessarily "the" War, but they are "wars" and they do involve "sealing."

Lots of people have asked themselves that before... What Arturo and I would tell you is that the Seal was made to transcend time(lines). While this theory cannot be backed up by any quotes, it's one way to explain how the Seal in the Child Timeline came to be.

Good. TP and TWW should still occur in the child timeline, since it's the same seal.

Edited by LionHarted, 16 August 2006 - 08:49 PM.


#332 Arturo

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 11:23 AM

Why? Ganon is sealed again in FSA.


In FSA Ganon is sealed inside of the FOUR SWORD, while in OoT and the Seal War he is in the Sacred Realm. It has been a long time since I last used a metaphor, so here it comes:

Assuming that the Four Sword (and it's a big assumption I don't believe) is a key to the Sacred Realm.

The Sacred Realm is a room and you can enter by opening the door with the key (Four Sword). In OoT the Sages put Ganon inside of the room and seal the room (Do not enter, Police :P), while in FSA the maidens put Ganon inside of the key. It's absolutely different.

Why? How? And since when is there a seal in the child timeline?


Since in Child Ending of OoT Ganon is no more. End the game again and you will see the DoT open, but then Zelda is once again in the castle, it only has an explanation: TIMELINE TRASCENDING SEAL.

There must be a rather large gap between OoT and ALttP because in ALttP there are no Hylians, and in OoT, they run rampant. TWW fills this gap rather nicely.


In OoT, they are Hylians in name, and in ears, because the Hylians of OoT neither can they hear the Gods nor have magical powers.


What conflict? Summarize it in a paragraph or two.


I will not waste my time in a long ellaboration, becasue I have done many already. To put in a nutshell:
ALttP: Ganon still sealed, TWW: Ganon not sealed anymore.

It implies that the "ALttP vs. TWW" conflict doesn't exist, because the terminology is the same.


For Din's sake. IT HAS BEEN TRANSLATED FROM JAPANESE!!!!!!!!!! Terminology may change between gamnes. What's more, ALttP and TWW have a storyline relationship, they are counterparts.

Two words: Developer intentions.

Three words: Logo, not used

Spectacle Rock doesn't appear in OoT.


It does, it's in Death Mountain Crater, you can see it, though it is never named.
Good. TP and TWW should still occur in the child timeline, since it's the same seal.


Creators' quotes and in-game evidence prove that TWW is on the Adult Timeline.

Edited by Arturo, 17 August 2006 - 11:24 AM.


#333 LionHarted

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 11:38 AM

In FSA Ganon is sealed inside of the FOUR SWORD

Proof?

while in OoT and the Seal War he is in the Sacred Realm.

In pre-ALttP has is never said to be in the Golden Land--just the Dark World, which may or may not refer to the Dark World from FSA, or the one that the Golden Land becomes in ALttP.

Assuming that the Four Sword (and it's a big assumption I don't believe) is a key to the Sacred Realm.

Or just the Dark World. Which is confirmed--the Four Sword is connected in some way to the "Moon Gates", which are entrances to the FSA Dark World.

The Sacred Realm is a room and you can enter by opening the door with the key (Four Sword). In OoT the Sages put Ganon inside of the room and seal the room (Do not enter, Police :P)

Correct.

while in FSA the maidens put Ganon inside of the key.

Is this said or stated? I seem to remember them saying he was sealed "away from this world", whereas Vaati, confirmed to have been sealed in the Four Sword, was always said to have been "imprisoned within Hyrule."

It's absolutely different.

You're right. The diction used to describe Vaati's sealing is very different from that diction used to describe Ganon's.

Since in Child Ending of OoT Ganon is no more. End the game again and you will see the DoT open, but then Zelda is once again in the castle, it only has an explanation: TIMELINE TRASCENDING SEAL.

He closes the Door of Time. We don't know what happens after that. For all we know, the "Door of Time" could work like everything else with the title "of Time" (Ocarina of Time, Pedestal of Time, Temple of Time) and might send him back further in time to a point before Zelda ever leaves the castle (my personal opinion).

In OoT, they are Hylians in name, and in ears, because the Hylians of OoT neither can they hear the Gods nor have magical powers.

In no other currently-released game are the people ever referred to as being "Hylians". Hylians are always mentioned in past-tense.

I will not waste my time in a long ellaboration, becasue I have done many already. To put in a nutshell:
ALttP: Ganon still sealed, TWW: Ganon not sealed anymore.

Irrelevant. ALttP--seal opened "again."

For Din's sake. IT HAS BEEN TRANSLATED FROM JAPANESE!!!!!!!!!! Terminology may change between gamnes. What's more, ALttP and TWW have a storyline relationship, they are counterparts.

Proof?

Three words: Logo, not used

Five words: Logo at one point created.

Creators' quotes and in-game evidence prove that TWW is on the Adult Timeline.

Irrelevant. No creator quote confirms, for one, that there are even two timelines to speak of, nor that the game can't occur on both of them. The creator quote you speak of confirms that TWW comes after Ganon is sealed, as opposed to MM, which occurs after Link goes back in time.

Edited by LionHarted, 17 August 2006 - 11:39 AM.


#334 Doopliss

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 09:44 PM

In pre-ALttP has is never said to be in the Golden Land--just the Dark World, which may or may not refer to the Dark World from FSA, or the one that the Golden Land becomes in ALttP.

Since when do we know that there are two Dark Worlds?

He closes the Door of Time. We don't know what happens after that. For all we know, the "Door of Time" could work like everything else with the title "of Time" (Ocarina of Time, Pedestal of Time, Temple of Time) and might send him back further in time to a point before Zelda ever leaves the castle (my personal opinion).

These are just wild assumptions!

#335 Jumbie

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 10:03 PM

What conflict? Summarize it in a paragraph or two.

Both ALttP and TWW are designed as direct sequels to the same game, OoT. While in ALttP the escape of Ganon is attempted but doesn't happen, in the times before TWW the escape of Ganon does happen. It's basically telling the same story with two different endings (the endings being OoT's two endings).

Spectacle Rock doesn't appear in OoT.

Like Arturo said, the two rock spires in OoT's Death Mountain Crater are intended to be the same Spectacle Rock that also appears in ALttP, LoZ and AoL. (Not in TWW though, Spectacle Island is something different)

There are two either way. One takes place in OoT, and one in FSA. They aren't necessarily "the" War, but they are "wars" and they do involve "sealing."

What a deed, you once again managed to answer on a completely different question...

Proof?
Is this said or stated? I seem to remember them saying he was sealed "away from this world", whereas Vaati, confirmed to have been sealed in the Four Sword, was always said to have been "imprisoned within Hyrule."

Proof would be Zelda asking the Shrine Maidens to seal Ganon in the Four Sword, and visuals clearly showing Ganon being sucked into the sword's blade.

Five words: Logo at one point created.

Now, what if the logo had shown the bug-catching net instead of the sword? Would that still be some kind of "creators' intention"?

The creator quote you speak of confirms that TWW comes after Ganon is sealed, as opposed to MM, which occurs after Link goes back in time.

The quote he speaks of confirmed that TWW happens "after the ending that has Link as an adult".

#336 LionHarted

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 12:13 AM

Both ALttP and TWW are designed as direct sequels to the same game, OoT.

ALttP can't be designed as a sequel to OoT, since it was made long before OoT.

While in ALttP the escape of Ganon is attempted but doesn't happen

What the hell are you talking about?

in the times before TWW the escape of Ganon does happen.

Why/how is it that it happens and doesn't happen at the same time?

It's basically telling the same story with two different endings (the endings being OoT's two endings).

OoT's "two endings" are the two points at which the story is "over." Link defeats Ganon, and his deeds in the future have "ended", and Link closes the Door of Time, and his deeds in the past have "ended."

Like Arturo said, the two rock spires in OoT's Death Mountain Crater are intended to be the same Spectacle Rock that also appears in ALttP, LoZ and AoL.

I will agree with this.

(Not in TWW though, Spectacle Island is something different)

But not this.

What a deed, you once again managed to answer on a completely different question...

You insulted me for pointing out the obvious. You do so again here.

Proof would be Zelda asking the Shrine Maidens to seal Ganon in the Four Sword

Quote?

and visuals clearly showing Ganon being sucked into the sword's blade.

Point? Things are often more than they appear.

Now, what if the logo had shown the bug-catching net instead of the sword? Would that still be some kind of "creators' intention"?

Of course.

The quote he speaks of confirmed that TWW happens "after the ending that has Link as an adult".

There is no ending that has Link as an adult, because he goes back in time at the end. There is an ending that has Ganon defeated, which in turn is after the ending that has Link as a child, chronologically speaking.

#337 Fyxe

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 06:35 AM

It's a sad moment when someone is arguing that Ganon in FSA wasn't sealed in the Four Sword.

#338 LionHarted

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 07:42 AM

It's a sad moment when someone is arguing that Ganon in FSA wasn't sealed in the Four Sword.

Does it ever say that he's sealed in the Four Sword?

Furthermore, does it ever really say what being sealed in the Four Sword actually entails?

No.

Ganon may be visually "sucked into" the Four Sword, but Link supposedly gets "sucked into" the Magic Mirror in ALttP, and it takes him to the Light World. Why can't the Four Sword seal evil away in the Dark World (where evil has always been sealed in every other case)?

Edited by LionHarted, 18 August 2006 - 08:08 AM.


#339 Fyxe

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 08:32 AM

Does it ever say that he's sealed in the Four Sword?

Do you need everything SPELT OUT TO YOU?

Furthermore, does it ever really say what being sealed in the Four Sword actually entails?

No.

So you shouldn't assume it means anything more than being sealed inside a sword.

Ganon may be visually "sucked into" the Four Sword, but Link supposedly gets "sucked into" the Magic Mirror in ALttP, and it takes him to the Light World. Why can't the Four Sword seal evil away in the Dark World (where evil has always been sealed in every other case)?

Vaati in Four Swords was sealed in the Four Sword. And before in the backstory of Four Sword. Evil in FSA is sealed in the Dark Mirror. Ganon is sealed in the Four Sword in FSA. Just because Ganon was sealed in the Dark World ONCE BEFORE doesn't mean there's a precident for such a thing. You are making. It. Up. You are fanficcing. You are assuming things where it's convenient for YOU.

Evil has only been sealed in the Dark World once. Hardly 'every other case'. If the designers wanted to seal Ganon in the Dark World at the end of FSA, they wouldn't of had him sealed in a bloody sword.

Edited by Fyxe, 18 August 2006 - 08:35 AM.


#340 LionHarted

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 08:35 AM

Do you need everything SPELT OUT TO YOU?

YES.

So you shouldn't assume it means anything more than being sealed inside a sword.

But not "deep within Hyrule."

they wouldn't of had him SEALED IN A BLOODY SWORD.

You still haven't shown me indisputable evidence that he is (i.e., in-game text). Just telling me that it looks like that's what happens is not good enough.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 August 2006 - 08:36 AM.


#341 Fyxe

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 08:51 AM

YES.

Then you're quite the fool.

But not "deep within Hyrule."

If you're sealed in a sword, you can be both away from the world and deep within Hyrule at the same time. Because you're SEALED (away from the world), but you're sealed in a sword (deep within Hyrule).

You still haven't shown me indisputable evidence that he is (i.e., in-game text). Just telling me that it looks like that's what happens is not good enough.


Vaati was sealed in the Four Sword twice. We see Ganon getting sealed in the Four Sword. Therefore, he gets sealed in the Four Sword. It is that simple.

And the idea that you need in-game text for everything is mind-numbing. The maidens are said to be 'sacrificed' in ALttP but we know they aren't, they're sealed in crystals, because we SEE this. Nobody says 'Ganon is now dead' in TLoZ but he clearly is, because we see him die. You don't need in-game text to tell you the bloody obvious.

Give me in-game text to prove that Ganon was sealed in the Dark World.

Edited by Fyxe, 18 August 2006 - 08:54 AM.


#342 LionHarted

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 11:29 AM

Then you're quite the fool.

Because I don't assume what you assume, I'm a fool?

We see Ganon getting sealed in the Four Sword.

No. We. Do. Not.

We see a stream of smoke enter the Four Sword. Ganon himself disappears. The smoke comes from Ganon, but we cannot prove that the smoke IS Ganon.

And the idea that you need in-game text for everything is mind-numbing.

The maidens are said to be 'sacrificed' in ALttP but we know they aren't, they're sealed in crystals, because we SEE this.

They are sacrificed. They are offered up in a ritual and sent to the Dark World.

Sacrifice: The act of offering something to a deity in propitiation or homage, especially [but not limited to] the ritual slaughter of an animal or a person.

Nobody says 'Ganon is now dead' in TLoZ but he clearly is, because we see him die.

He clearly is because AoL's manual says he is.

Give me in-game text to prove that Ganon was sealed in the Dark World.

Give me in-game text to prove that he was sealed in the Four Sword.

Oh? You can't? Then give me information from another game that references his being sealed in the Four Sword--from a game that can be strongly connected to FSA, and perhaps considered as its sequel. Oh? You can't? I can do this for the Dark World.

If ALttP comes after FSA, and Ganon in ALttP is sealed in the Dark World, then Ganon in FSA could conceivably have been sealed in the Dark World. No game shows Ganon lleaving a seal from within the Four Sword. If such a seal exists, then we must assume that he never left it.

And if he never left it... then FSA must be LAST in the timeline.

Which it DEFINITELY isn't.

#343 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 01:33 PM

No. We. Do. Not.

We see a stream of smoke enter the Four Sword. Ganon himself disappears. The smoke comes from Ganon, but we cannot prove that the smoke IS Ganon.

If the smoke is not Ganon, where is it? Where did Ganon go? Occam's Razor leads us to believe that Ganon (Who's turned into smoke before, like when he was flying out of Vaati's castle) turned into smoke and got sucked into the sword.

He clearly is because AoL's manual says he is.


We know he is even without AOL's manual. Because he died.

Give me in-game text to prove that he was sealed in the Four Sword.

You have eyes. Look at the screen. He's sealed.

And if he never left it... then FSA must be LAST in the timeline.

Which it DEFINITELY isn't.


One could work a way for FSA to be the last in the timeline if they wanted to. Same way you made your theories.

#344 LionHarted

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 01:48 PM

If the smoke is not Ganon, where is it? Where did Ganon go?

Somewhere else.

Occam's Razor leads us to believe that Ganon (Who's turned into smoke before, like when he was flying out of Vaati's castle) turned into smoke and got sucked into the sword.

Prove to me that Ganon was the smoke flying out of Vaati's castle, and that that wasn't Vaati's spirit or something of the like.

We know he is even without AOL's manual. Because he died.

We know just as well that Vaati died in TMC, yet he's still there in FS.

You have eyes. Look at the screen. He's sealed.

Only if you interpret the smoke as actually being Ganon, which I don't.

One could work a way for FSA to be the last in the timeline if they wanted to. Same way you made your theories.

Not without blaring holes in the state of affairs in ALttP.

#345 Fyxe

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 02:50 PM

I'm on the verge of setting this guy on ignore. This is beyond tedious.

#346 Showsni

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 07:18 PM

Just before Ganon is sealed: "If we combine our powers,
we may yet be able to seal
Ganon away from the world!"

Just after: "Now, the Four Sword...

Place the sword that sealed
away the darkness on the
pedestal."

#347 Jumbie

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 10:08 PM

People, it seems we might be in for some room once again, without childish "No no no, not without text proof"s spamming the boards, so we should use it to finally move on. Moving on sounds good, doesn't it?

Hm, where could we continue...
So, I'd like to hear your opinions on FSA, Oracles and LoZ/AoL. Maybe if everyone could just order them in the order they believe makes most sense. It might be a chance to find consensus.

#348 Guest_Master of ALttP_*

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 10:25 PM

People, it seems we might be in for some room once again, without childish "No no no, not without text proof"s spamming the boards, so we should use it to finally move on. Moving on sounds good, doesn't it?

No comprende. Too tired for thinking. Too tired to sleep.

Hm, where could we continue...
So, I'd like to hear your opinions on FSA, Oracles and LoZ/AoL. Maybe if everyone could just order them in the order they believe makes most sense. It might be a chance to find consensus.

FSA leads into ALttP and cannot come afterwards because Link in ALttP is the last in the line of the Knights of Hyrule. A new group called the Knights of Hyrule cannot be created just like that *snaps fingers* because from what we are told in the game, they posess powers that are passed on over generations. Since someone over at Zelda Universe has proven that it is impossible for such genetic traits to be passed on from the last in the line, FSA cannot take place after ALttP.

ALttP leads right into LA. This is pretty obvious. It was the developers' intentions for this to occur, and to this day the manual is [usually] interpreted as such.

Some time after LA, the Oracle games take place. Twinrova talks of resurrecting Ganon, and Ganon was killed in ALttP. FSA cannot be between the two because Ganon was sealed away at the end of FSA and wasn't killed. You cannot resurrect what is not dead.

The Oracle games are later followed by LoZ and AoL, which are already known to occur in that order because of how video game sequels worked back in the 80's. The Triforce has been scattered by a king of Hyrule whom used the Triforce to govern the land, and the only game in which we see the Royal Family in posession, or presumably in posession, of the Triforce is the Oracle games. I am talking about how the Triforce is located in Hyrule Castle, which probably indicates that the Royal Family keeps gaurd over the Triforce.

Edited by Master of ALttP, 18 August 2006 - 10:26 PM.


#349 Jumbie

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 12:58 PM

No comprende. Too tired for thinking.

That's lucky for me. It wasn't intended for you to read, anyway.

FSA leads into ALttP and cannot come afterwards because......

Let's make a deal, Master of ALttP: Why don't you ask me to not post anymore in LionHatred's timeline thread, and in turn I ask of you two not to meddle anymore in our Split Timeline affairs, wouldn't that be fine?
Once again, this thread is reserved for Splitters, as clearly stated in the initial post, and I'm not keen on reading about your placement of FSA, OoX and LoZ/AoL in this particular thread. Firstly I already know your placement very well, secondly there's no way for you to meddle in here without stating that you've come up with a Split Timeline.
For the sake of it, go open up as many new threads about your Single Timeline as you like, but please, please, please leave us alone in this one thread. I really hope you're not too stubborn and childish to ignore my words, since one should be able to expect of you a somewhat more mature behaviour. There's just some unspoken rules that are not to be broken, and you've just broken them.

Enough of that now. All you oldskool Splitters, I'd like to hear your opinions on FSA, Oracles and LoZ/AoL. Please state the order you believe they have so this thread gets back to its purpose once again!

#350 Arturo

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 01:45 PM

Proof?


Only because you have a fantastic marvelous and incredible Single Timeline, that doesn't allow you to ignore given facts. It's seen and said.

In pre-ALttP has is never said to be in the Golden Land--just the Dark World, which may or may not refer to the Dark World from FSA, or the one that the Golden Land becomes in ALttP.


Sacred Realm=Golden Land Evil Realm=Dark World

In no other currently-released game are the people ever referred to as being "Hylians". Hylians are always mentioned in past-tense.

Becasue OoT is first

Irrelevant. ALttP--seal opened "again."

Irrelevant, Japanese

Five words: Logo at one point created.

Logo at one time rejected

Edited by Arturo, 19 August 2006 - 02:08 PM.


#351 mmmmm_PIE

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 01:56 PM

Enough of that now. All you oldskool Splitters, I'd like to hear your opinions on FSA, Oracles and LoZ/AoL. Please state the order you believe they have so this thread gets back to its purpose once again!


Sure, let's start with the Oracles;
Obviously, they can't directly follow FSA, as Ganon must be dead at their commencment, rather then sealed. It must directly follow LA or AoL, but, unfortunately, there is no canon to demonstrate which is the case. In this situation, I fall back on intent, and try to determine where Capcom wanted the games placed.

Restating my opinions on that:
AlttP and LA have very similar art themes and were produed in the same "period"
OOT, MM, OoA, and OoS have very similar art themes, and were produced in the same "period"
tWW, FS, FSA, and TMC have very similar art themes, and were produced in the same "period".
This has nothing to do with intent, its just how the series evolved. Each game continues to have its own unique artstyle, but there always seems to be quite a bit of consistency in a set of games.

Clicks for Pics
TP and OOT were NOT produced in the same period, and yet there art themes are similar, showing an intent to relate the games.
In the same way, AlttP and OoX were NOT produced in the same perioed, and there are themes are similar, showing an intent to relate the games.

So OoX comes after AlttP, before LoZ.

As for FS/FSA, its a matter of the Trident.
To assume that Ganon uses more then one magic trident throughout the series, when there is no canon to suggest this, is IMHO, unnessasary speculation. Therefore, there must be a means by which the Trident leaves Ganon's possesion and finds its way to the Pyramid.

In OoX, Ganon never leaves the Room of Rites, and when he is defeated, he, the room, the entire complex, it all disapears. Neither Link nor Zelda carriars the Trident out with them, so it to is lost.
Such is not the case in LoZ, the Trident coudl very well be left behind after Ganon's final victory. So that leaves us:
AlttP/LA - OoX - LoZ/AoL - FS/FSA

All this is based on the assumption that:
A> There are no other games present in the chronology at this time.
and
B> FS/FSA comes after AlttP.

I hold to the beleif that FSA will eventually have a sequel (hopefully sooner than later) and that it may very well allow us to make an earliar Double timeline FSA placement.

Edited by mmmmm_PIE, 19 August 2006 - 01:56 PM.


#352 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 02:31 PM

Somewhere else.

But of course, it didn't. Occam's Razor.

Prove to me that Ganon was the smoke flying out of Vaati's castle, and that that wasn't Vaati's spirit or something of the like.


Ganon speaks and says stuff about defeating Link and conquering the world, then the smoke flies off in pursuit of them. When it does, it turns into Ganon.

We know just as well that Vaati died in TMC, yet he's still there in FS.

He wasn't sealed in the Four Sword either, so we're lead to assume there's an untold tale depicting Vaati's ressurection and sealing. As for LOZ, that was the only game at the time, and no one's gonna assume "Hey, he turned into dust, but he MUST be alive."

Only if you interpret the smoke as actually being Ganon, which I don't.


Then you're a dipshit.

Not without blaring holes in the state of affairs in ALttP.


Again, just like your theories. Surprise surprise.

#353 Jumbie

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 03:53 PM

So OoX comes after AlttP, before LoZ.

Agreed.

As for FS/FSA, its a matter of the Trident. Therefore, there must be a means by which the Trident leaves Ganon's possesion and finds its way to the Pyramid.
In OoX, Ganon never leaves the Room of Rites, and when he is defeated, he, the room, the entire complex, it all disapears. Neither Link nor Zelda carriars the Trident out with them, so it to is lost.
Such is not the case in LoZ, the Trident coudl very well be left behind after Ganon's final victory. So that leaves us: AlttP/LA - OoX - LoZ/AoL - FS/FSA

Is it really so important how the Trident came from the Room of Rites to the Pyramid? There's something you didn't think through: Going by your order, when Ganon dies and loses the Trident in OoX, how does the weapon finally get back to Ganon in LoZ? So, I don't think this alone is reason to put FSA after AoL.
Let's see once again what the inscription in the Pyramid room says:

We...grant you...power to ...ruin...the world. The power of...darkness.
Evil...spirit of magic trident. You are...the...King of Darkness.

"We grant you power" - who are "they", if not some followers of Ganon or members of the Dark Tribe?
Although the ancestors of the Zuna tribe built the Pyramid, this doesn't mean that the Trident was brought there by them. Any evildoers could enshrine the Trident there, and it's logical for them to choose the Pyramid as it's located in vicinity to the Gerudo village where the reincarnation of Ganondorf would likely be born (which turned out to be true in the end).
Now, Twinrova sacrificed themselves in Oracles, so some other followers of Ganon must have picked up the Trident after OoX. Assuming that the Room of Rites was located inside the Dark World (which judging by its existence in KnS, OoX and AoL was there all along), some evil denizens of the Dark World must have brought the Trident back to Hyrule. Maybe, just maybe, this evil could be the Dark Tribe, managing to enshrine the Trident in the Pyramid but being sealed inside the Dark Mirror just afterwards - place for a future Zelda game to fit in.

I hold to the beleif that FSA will eventually have a sequel (hopefully sooner than later) and that it may very well allow us to make an earliar Double timeline FSA placement.

I've explained how that sequel could fit in, so what keeps you from placing FSA before LoZ already today?

#354 mmmmm_PIE

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 04:09 PM

Its not that I have anything against FS/FSA and then LoZ/AoL. The games were produced over a decade apart, and things are just so hard to prove either way.

Without much effort, you can modify my argument just a bit and come to the opposite result:

As for FS/FSA, its a matter of the white sword.
To assume that Link uses more then one white sword throughout the series, when there is no canon to suggest this, is IMHO, unnessasary speculation. Therefore, there must be a means by which the Whitesword (which is, in truth, the Foursword) can be outside the Sanctuary in LoZ

After TMC, Vatti never leaves the Foursword. How then could the sword be out and in use during LoZ, if Vatti is still captured withing by FSA
AlttP/LA - OoX - FS/FS - LoZ - Aol


There are holes in that argument as well, so again, we can't be sure.
I simply like having FSA at the end, because its something of a revival for the child timeline. It leaves an open slot for future FS games to build this branch, while single-player PH sequels continue the other branch. Its a pretty little pakage...

Edited by mmmmm_PIE, 19 August 2006 - 04:10 PM.


#355 Jumbie

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 04:44 PM

Without much effort, you can modify my argument just a bit and come to the opposite result:
There are holes in that argument as well, so again, we can't be sure.

Well, I can't find any holes in that argument, it makes perfect sense :)

I simply like having FSA at the end

Here it's very good that you're open for both possibilities, since I have the suspicion that hardly anyone will want to share the belief of AoL>FSA. You know, just for fun I once proposed the possibility that FSA might happen after AoL earlier in this thread, but no one really cared to think about it.
So, since we're all working towards a Split Timeline acceptable by as many people as possible... But well, before I jump to conclusions, let's wait if not someone else has to say something about this!

#356 Guest_Master of ALttP_*

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 04:47 PM

That's lucky for me. It wasn't intended for you to read, anyway.
Let's make a deal, Master of ALttP: Why don't you ask me to not post anymore in LionHatred's timeline thread, and in turn I ask of you two not to meddle anymore in our Split Timeline affairs, wouldn't that be fine?
Once again, this thread is reserved for Splitters, as clearly stated in the initial post, and I'm not keen on reading about your placement of FSA, OoX and LoZ/AoL in this particular thread. Firstly I already know your placement very well, secondly there's no way for you to meddle in here without stating that you've come up with a Split Timeline.
For the sake of it, go open up as many new threads about your Single Timeline as you like, but please, please, please leave us alone in this one thread. I really hope you're not too stubborn and childish to ignore my words, since one should be able to expect of you a somewhat more mature behaviour. There's just some unspoken rules that are not to be broken, and you've just broken them.

Enough of that now. All you oldskool Splitters, I'd like to hear your opinions on FSA, Oracles and LoZ/AoL. Please state the order you believe they have so this thread gets back to its purpose once again!

Alright, so let's say that I just suffered some sort of major concussion and now I support a split timeline. Let's see... How would I make it...

. _MM
. /
OoT Past< _OoT Future---TP---TWW---TMC---FS-FSA---ALttP-LA---OoA-OoS---LoZ-AoL
. \ _Seven Year Sleep/

Bah, I was actually going to get into something here, but whatever. I'll find another way to waste my time. Forget all that up there. TWW makes a reference to MM. In fact, you have to read it when you play the game. It was the Hero of Time leaving Hyrule for his personal quest that explains how the Triforce of Courage has been broken up and hidden. Here, I'll give you an exact quote.

The King of Red Lions, TWW
Link, do you know the legend
of the Hero of Time?

Once, long ago, he defeated Ganon and
brought peace to the Kingdom of Hyrule...

A piece of the Triforce was given to the
Hero of Time and he kept it safe, much as
Zelda kept hers.

That sacred piece is known as the
Triforce of Courage.

When the Hero of Time was called to
embark on another journey and left the
land of Hyrule, he was separated from the
elements that made him a hero.

It is said that at that time, the Triforce of
Courage was split into eight shards and
hidden throughout the land.


If MM is not in the same timeline as TWW, then this cannot be said. So, you either have TWW on the wrong side of the split, or the split does not actually exist. The Triforce of Courage is split in TWW. The Triforce of Courage was split into eight shards and hidden across Hyrule before Link left for Termina. We know that because of another legend of the Royal Family.

Introduction to Majora's Mask
In the land of Hyrule, there
echoes a legend. A legend held
dearly by the Royal Family that
tells of a boy...

A boy who,
after battling evil and saving
Hyrule, crept away from the land
that had made him a legend...

Done with the battles he once
waged across time, he embarked
on a journey. A secret and
personal journey...

A journey in search of a
beloved and invaluable friend...

A friend with whom he parted
ways when he finally fulfilled his
heroic destiny and took his place
among legends...


This is the journey spoken of in TWW. The Hero called himself on the quest that seperated him from the elements that had made him a hero. I feel that I could do this so much better, but frankly, I don't care. You all can look over it and argue all you want, but I don't care. Unless there's really something interesting going on in here, I'm probably not going to post in this thread again.

#357 mmmmm_PIE

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 01:16 AM

Persistance of canon MoAlttP, if there was a Double Timeline after OOT, tWW and MM could not change that, they can only clarify the fact:

In our judgement of this, we must take an equal-oppertunity look at both possibilities:

When the Hero of Time was called
ST: Self "called" to find Navi
DT: Called by Zelda
to embark on another journey
ST: A journey to Termina
DT: A journey to the past
and left the land of Hyrule,
ST: 3D movement, moving from one location to the other
DT: 6D moevment, moving from one timeline to another.
he was separated from the elements that made him a hero.
ST and DT: leaving the MS and Triforce behind.

The quote is appliable in both situations.

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 09:13 AM

Persistance of canon MoAlttP, if there was a Double Timeline after OOT, tWW and MM could not change that, they can only clarify the fact:

In our judgement of this, we must take an equal-oppertunity look at both possibilities:

When the Hero of Time was called
ST: Self "called" to find Navi
DT: Called by Zelda
to embark on another journey
ST: A journey to Termina
DT: A journey to the past
and left the land of Hyrule,
ST: 3D movement, moving from one location to the other
DT: 6D moevment, moving from one timeline to another.
he was separated from the elements that made him a hero.
ST and DT: leaving the MS and Triforce behind.

The quote is appliable in both situations.

Ah, but you have made a mistake. The Hero of Time was called on a journey. Zelda sent Link back in time so that he'd never have to go on that journey that took up seven of his years. She sent him back so that he wouldn't have to go on a journey, but he did anyways. This was his personal journey. The time travel cannot be the journey the Hero of Time took. Well, whatever. You're all still stubborn. I think I'm done here now.

#359 Jumbie

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 10:30 AM

In our judgement of this, we must take an equal-oppertunity look at both possibilities:

When the Hero of Time was called
ST: Self "called" to find Navi
DT: Called by Zelda
to embark on another journey
ST: A journey to Termina
DT: A journey to the past
and left the land of Hyrule,
ST: 3D movement, moving from one location to the other
DT: 6D moevment, moving from one timeline to another.
he was separated from the elements that made him a hero.
ST and DT: leaving the MS and Triforce behind.

Honestly, your method of discussing evidence is great! :)

The quote is appliable in both situations.

Definitely, that's the good thing! Everyone but me is free to discuss Single Timelines.. elsewhere.

You're all still stubborn. I think I'm done here now.

..You better be, yes!!
For the last time, the Split Timeline is not to be opposed in this thread. You're free to post as many "disproofs" of the split as you want in "Theory about *sigh* OoT's ending"", but not here. I've told you so times before, so finally stop to be such a nuisance!

Well due to MoALttP's spam, this question might easily have been overlooked, so once more:
Does anyone else (MPS, Doopliss, Fyxe, Arturo, Zol, SOAP and other Splitters) find it possible that FS+FSA might happen after LoZ+AoL?
If not, please give us your order of the games FSA, Oracles and LoZ+AoL.

#360 Fyxe

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 10:33 AM

'Called' doesn't have to be literal. The legend wasn't written by Link himself, everyone else would assume that something 'called' him to go on another journey, and it did.

It could be anything. Going back in time THEN leaving for Termina. He does both, so what does it matter which exact thing it was?




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