399 replies to this topic

[Arturo]

My point is, by not having ALttP's Backstory be the same as the sealing of Ganon done by adult Link in OoT you too are going against the game creators original intentions for OoT. But you said earlier that the quotes from the creators about their original intentions are still valid and that my timeline was wrong for contradicting them. You are now contradicting your self. Now you are saying that since TWW makes a connection impossible then it is okay for you to contradict the game creators original intentions about OoT. How is that any different from what I said?

If you are talking about aonuma's interview, I will tell you that I have read it and I know that it does not mention Timelines at all. It says that TWW takes place after the adult ending of OoT.

You are contradicting the creators quotes by saying that the SW (Seal War, I'd rather use that term) is not OoT, while that's what the creators impli8ed in the 90's. Now, after TWW and ALttP GBA, we know that creators think a slightly different thing: that TWW comes after the Adult Ending and that ALttP is after the Child Timeline, and that the SW is not exactly OoT. How do we know this? Read with attention the interview with Aonuma:

Q: Where does The Wind Waker fit into the overall Zelda series timeline?

Aonuma: You can think of this game as taking place over a hundred years after Ocarina of Time. You can tell this from the opening story, and there are references to things from Ocarina located throughout the game as well.
Miyamoto: Well, wait, which point does the hundred years start from?
Aonuma: From the end.
Miyamoto: No, I mean, as a child or as a...
Aonuma: Oh, right, let me elaborate on that. Ocarina of Time basically has two endings of sorts; one has Link as a child and the other has him as an adult. This game, The Wind Waker, takes place a hundred years after the adult Link defeats Ganon at the end of Ocarina.
Miyamoto: This is pretty confusing for us, too. (laughs) So be careful.

First, let me make a point. There is NOT 100 years between OoT and TWW, but hundreds of years (the word in Japanese is the same so it's a translation mistake since in the game it's implied that a really long time, more than 100 years has passed since then). If they didn't say how many tyears, why would they think about a difference of seven years. What difference is there between hundreds of years and hundreds of years+7 years? The answer is split timeline. Did you notice that they didn't mention MM at all in the interview? that's because MM is in a different timeline. And since TWW is hundreds of years after the Adult ending, and ALttP is absolutely incompatible with TWW (the Great Flood is a consequence of the Great Cataclysm that is stopped on ALttP), ALttP is in a different Timeline. And if yoyu see the ALttP/FS manual, you see that they didn't change the backstory to be more simmillar to Adult OoT, except for small details such as Wise Men--> Sages. There is no hero on the backstory, as in Child OoT. The creators don't use the term storyline, but imply it, OoT has two endings, if it has two endings, it has two stories, two stories=two storylines.

God is on our side, bwahahahaha

It's not what's said, Zol, it's the implied meaning behind those words. Why would they specify the adult ending if it takes place 'about a century' after OoT anyway? Why would they seperate the endings?

The only explaination is to make it clear that it occurs after OoT and not to let Majora's Mask confuse the issue. However, the fact that this is an issue implies that if it was after the young ending (and after MM) then it would be on a different timeline, or something.

For once, I agree with yopu completely.

Please, could you elaborte more on this, so I can get the information I need to continue discussing? I would like to know why you think the seal trascends timelines. Do you think that there's still only one Sacred Realm after the timeline splits, that is connected to both timelines, as Termina?

The Sages' Seal trascends time because Nayru told me!!! Not really, I think it trascends time because of what you see in OoT's ending. When Link returns the MS to the Pedestal of Time, you see that the Dopor of Time is CLEARLY open. Do you remember what happened in OoT just before Link got the Ocarina of Time? Zelda and Impa escaping from Ganondorf. But in the ending, Zelda is shown in the Courtyard, so we can assume that Ganondorf is no more in Hyrule. He has been sealed. Then I can say why I think it's possible for the Seal to trascend Time. Let's see:
ALttP Japanese Maunal: The "god of wisdom" made science and magic, and awarded the land with natural order.
OoT. Nayru... Poured her wisdom onto the earth and gave the spirit of law to the world.

Nayru is asoccitaed with order. Last time I checked, time was part of this order. Plus, we have the Goddess of ime in MM, who is constantly asocciated with Zelda and the Ocarina of Time and the blue colour. Which Goddess is asocciated with these things? Nayru. Also, the Three Goddesses are atemporal, since they created Hyrule "Before time began, before spirits and life existed...". Hyrule is not the Sacred Realm , and I think that until Ganon wishes, the time flows in a strange way, Rauru doesn't age, buit Link does... And the Timeline... since Ganon wished what he wished, Sr has the same timeline as Hyrule, but just because of the wish. Initially it was atemporal, just as the Goddesses, and in some aspects it still is (Ganon doesn't age, for example). Yes, it's confusing, I know, so to make a little summary:

SR is temporal.
It shares the timeline of Hyrule.
Initially it was atemporal.
The wish of Ganon changes it.
Sages' Seal creation trascends time.
Ganon in Child Tiomeline is sealed while he is in the SR.

Clear enough?

I should write an article about what I think about the Sages' Seal (I love this topic, just see my image).

What? How can you say that? We never see Rauru outside the SR when Link is a child.

Emmm, Rauru is one of the Ancient Sages, those who built the Temple of Time to protect the Triforce froonm the SR. If the Ancient Sages are only a legend passed by the Royal Family, they must be really, really old. And Rauru IS alive. And, from what we know, Hylians don't have such long life-spans. We can conclude Rauru doesn't age.

Who are "they", the comment came from aonuma only? I think the order of the endings goes like this:

OoT(child ending)-MM-OoT(adult ending)

The endings are seperated by MM. Aonuma then placed TWW after the adult ending.

OoT(child ending)-MM-OoT(adult ending)-100 years-TWW

It's all clear and does not have to imply a split timeline. And since Timelines were never mentioned by Aonuma, Arturo was wrong to say that they were.

I have already answered this. There is no mention about MM in the interview. And there are more than 100 years between OoT and TWW. Aonuma doesn't mention Timelines, but endings. If there are not two different stories, there are not two endings. There are two timelines.

[Alastair]

I have already answered this. There is no mention about MM in the interview. And there are more than 100 years between OoT and TWW. Aonuma doesn't mention Timelines, but endings. If there are not two different stories, there are not two endings. There are two timelines.

Saying "Ocarina of Time basically has two endings of sorts." is not the same as saying there are two seperate timelines, though that is implied as a distinct possibility.

A popular fan theory (largely because of inconsistencies between aLttP's IW and the events of OoT) is/was that the adult portion of the game does not happen. Acting upon Link's warnings the King and/or Sages avert the catastrophies shown in the OoT adult section, and the IW occurs as described in aLttP.

To some extent this theory is given more credence by MM setting - after the ending (of a sort?) in the middle of OoT. Aonuma may have been trying to clarify that both parts of OoT do happen.

[Arturo]

Saying "Ocarina of Time basically has two endings of sorts." is not the same as saying there are two seperate timelines, though that is implied as a distinct possibility.

A popular fan theory (largely because of inconsistencies between aLttP's IW and the events of OoT) is/was that the adult portion of the game does not happen. Acting upon Link's warnings the King and/or Sages avert the catastrophies shown in the OoT adult section, and the IW occurs as described in aLttP.

To some extent this theory is given more credence by MM setting - after the ending (of a sort?) in the middle of OoT. Aonuma may have been trying to clarify that both parts of OoT do happen.

If both of them happen , what do we have then? SPLIT TIMELINE, plus it's the only one that makes ALttP and TWW compatible.

[Fyxe]

For once, I agree with yopu completely.

For once? We're arguing very similar concepts...

...Except yours is wrong. XP But it could be worse.

Oh, can I request something? Can you guys stop say 'what the creators said in the 90s'? That makes it seem an age ago. It wasn't. It was 1998. CHRISTMAS 1998, so those interviews may have been 1999 (considering how much info is there, it looks either close to release or after release). It was NOT a long time ago, at all. By saying 'the 90s' you make the interviews seem much older than they are.

Besides, discounting creator quotes because they were from a few years ago is utterly foolish. Unless they have said something in other interviews since that directly contradicts what they said then, then what they said still stands.

Alastair, the concept of the future events of OoT being 'erased' and the IW occuring differently has a few logical flaws in it (I don't see how the IW could happen differently to the events of OoT in OoT's setting), but also has the problem of not meshing with TWW. TWW relies on OoT's adult ending, therefore the theory you just put forth relies on a split anyway.

Edited by Fyxe, 26 June 2006 - 10:57 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I have stated many times that the seal doesn't trascend time the way you are thinking. It trascends TIMELINES. So, if it is destroyed, it isn't stopped from existing. The seal trascends time, since Gnaon is sealed in both timelines. But after he is sealed, the Sages' Seal stops from provoking those time anomalies. Plus, the Sages' Seal is not completely destroyed in ALttP. (The answer didn't have to do anything because I understood another question)

Then it's transcending dimensions. Doy. as for the Seal in LTTP, yes, it is completely destroyed. Link just destroyed Ganon before he could get out. Davo gave a good analogy. Imagine the Sacred Realm as an envelope and Ganon as the letter inside. The Sages sealed the envelope. Now Agahnim broke the seal, but no one has yet to open the envelope and extract the letter.

Emmm, Rauru is one of the Ancient Sages, those who built the Temple of Time to protect the Triforce froonm the SR. If the Ancient Sages are only a legend passed by the Royal Family, they must be really, really old. And Rauru IS alive. And, from what we know, Hylians don't have such long life-spans. We can conclude Rauru doesn't age.

For all we know, Rauru could've become immortal for un-Sacred Realm related reasons, or is in ghost form like the King in TWW. But since Link ages, and the events in the Dark World mirror the Light World as they happen, it can only mean that the Sacred Realm is every bit as Time..ful as Hyrule.

I think it trascends time because of what you see in OoT's ending. When Link returns the MS to the Pedestal of Time, you see that the Dopor of Time is CLEARLY open. Do you remember what happened in OoT just before Link got the Ocarina of Time? Zelda and Impa escaping from Ganondorf. But in the ending, Zelda is shown in the Courtyard, so we can assume that Ganondorf is no more in Hyrule. He has been sealed. Then I can say why I think it's possible for the Seal to trascend Time.

The Door was open because Link needed to get out. Otherwise he'd be sealed in the chamber. Notice how it closes immediately after he leaves. Zelda could be in the courtyard for any sort of reason. Since Ganon went after you shortly after Link lifted the Master Sword, obviously Zelda and Impa lost Ganon and deemed it safe to return to the castle. Wouldn't it be much simpler to say that Link lifted the Master Sword for a whole two minutes, Ganon went in to get the Triforce, Link wakes up, comes out, and puts the sword down, accidently sealing Ganon in? That way, you're satisfied by Ganon being sealed in both timelines, and I'm satisfied by a lack of bullshit.

[Hero of Slime]

To say they specified the Adult ending just to include MM makes no sence, as the adult ending doesn't allude to MM even taking place. In OoT we follow Link throughout his adventure, and at no point do we go to Termina. We see all the child scenes, and the adult scenes.

I think that when Zelda sends Link back he goes to the Time when he is still sleeping in the sacred realm. He then goes to termina. After that his sleeping self wakes up, saves hyrule, and is sent back in time by Zelda.
From Links perspective the adult ending of OoT happens before MM, but the real chronological order puts the adult ending after MM.

You are contradicting the creators quotes by saying that the SW (Seal War, I'd rather use that term) is not OoT, while that's what the creators impli8ed in the 90's.

You are doing the same thing, in saying that the events of OoT's adult ending are not ALttP's BS, you to are contradicting the what the game creators impilied in the 90's. We both think that TWW makes it impossible for the creators original intentions to be true. If it is wrong for me to contradict the creators original intentions then it is wrong for you to do it also.




Fyxe, I will continue to say that the creator's quotes about OoT came from the 90's because it is true. The quotes did come from the 90's, 1999 is still in the 90's and not in this decade.

TWW relies on OoT's adult ending, therefore the theory you just put forth relies on a split anyway.

I want you to explain a split timeline to me since Arturo keeps contradicting himself. If ALttP is on the child ending, how can it's backstory be the events of OoT's adult ending? Before TWW, when the creators made their statements about the IW, didn't they intend for OoT's adult ending to be the IW?

[Fyxe]

Fyxe, I will continue to say that the creator's quotes about OoT came from the 90's because it is true. The quotes did come from the 90's, 1999 is still in the 90's and not in this decade.

I don't give a monkey's whether it was technically accurate or not. It's misleading and purposely indefinite. It's exactly the same number of characters to type '1998'. So why the fuck not?

Anyway, I don't see ALttP being on the child timeline, Zol, so Artuno is arguing a different viewpoint and I can't support that viewpoint because I feel it's, well... Wrong.

Edited by Fyxe, 26 June 2006 - 12:44 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

It's misleading and purposely indefinite

What do you mean? Do think that I am trying to make it sound as if the quotes come form an earlier date? I am not, I write 90's because that is the way I talk. I am sure that everyone here knows that OoT was made in 1998.

So do you put ALttP on the adult timeline?

[Arturo]

For once? We're arguing very similar concepts...

..Except yours is wrong. XP But it could be worse.

Mine is right, the Goddess Nayru, Zelda and the God of Creation
Miyamoto told me

Oh, can I request something? Can you guys stop say 'what the
creators said in the 90s'? That makes it seem an age ago. It
wasn't. It was 1998. CHRISTMAS 1998, so those interviews
may have been 1999 (considering how much info is there, it
looks either close to release or after release). It was NOT a
long time ago, at all. By saying 'the 90s' you make the
interviews seem much older than they are.

It could be worse, we could say the "creators said in the 20th
Century" or even in the 2nd Millenium

And maybe that way we reinforce the relation between OoT and ALttP, since both of them are from the 90's.

Then it's transcending dimensions. Doy. as for the Seal in LTTP,
yes, it is completely destroyed. Link just destroyed Ganon
before he could get out. Davo gave a good analogy. Imagine
the Sacred Realm as an envelope and Ganon as the letter
inside. The Sages sealed the envelope. Now Agahnim broke the
seal, but no one has yet to open the envelope and extract the
letter.

Well, I got a little bit confused on something Sahasrahla said, yes you are right, the Seal has been destroyed completely.

For all we know, Rauru could've become immortal for un-Sacred
Realm related reasons, or is in ghost form like the King in TWW.
But since Link ages, and the events in the Dark World mirror the
Light World as they happen, it can only mean that the Sacred
Realm is every bit as Timeful as Hyrule.

Rauru isn't immortal for un-SR reasons just because he doesn't seem to go out of it, and he's not a spirit, he breathes. And. And the Dark World mirrors Hyruule just because Ganon got the Triforce. Plus, Ganon doesn't age.

The Door was open because Link needed to get out. Otherwise
he'd be sealed in the chamber. Notice how it closes immediately
after he leaves. Zelda could be in the courtyard for any sort of
reason. Since Ganon went after you shortly after Link lifted the
Master Sword, obviously Zelda and Impa lost Ganon and
deemed it safe to return to the castle. Wouldn't it be much
simpler to say that Link lifted the Master Sword for a whole two
minutes, Ganon went in to get the Triforce, Link wakes up,
comes out, and puts the sword down, accidently sealing Ganon
in? That way, you're satisfied by Ganon being sealed in both
timelines, and I'm satisfied by a lack of bullshit.

Who is inventing things now? The Door of time is not open for humanitary reasons, but to be open, needs that the three Spiritual Stones are on the Altar. The Door is open because Link has already opened it. And your theory is absolutely baseless, since there is no Sages' Seal, and Ganondorf is too powerful to be sealed by such a simpler way. And saying that Impa and Zelda would return after Ganon's attack is simply stupid:
"On that day seven years ago, Ganondorf suddenly attacked... and Hyrule Castle surrendered after a short time.Ganondorf's target was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm...the hidden treasure of the Royal Family... The Ocarina of Time!My duty bound me to take Zelda out of Ganondorf's reach. When last I saw you, as we made our escape from the castle, you were just a lad..." Impa after you awaken her.
As Impa implies, they didn't come back because ganon was stuill around. I'm not inventing *Navi*, you have just done it.

You are doing the same thing, in saying that the events of
OoT's adult ending are not ALttP's BS, you to are contradicting
the what the game creators impilied in the 90's. We both think
that TWW makes it impossible for the creators original
intentions to be true. If it is wrong for me to contradict the
creators original intentions then it is wrong for you to do it also.
I want you to explain a split timeline to me since Arturo keeps
contradicting himself. If ALttP is on the child ending, how can
it's backstory be the events of OoT's adult ending? Before
TWW, when the creators made their statements about the IW,
didn't they intend for OoT's adult ending to be the IW?

I don't believe creators to be wrong when they said OoT was ALttP, I just say that with TWW an ALttP GBA their intention have changed, and that OoT is the SW but in a slightly different way.
You say almost the same thing I say, but the difference is that I don't believe I am contradicting anyone.

[Hero of Slime]

I don't believe creators to be wrong when they said OoT was ALttP, I just say that with TWW an ALttP GBA their intention have changed,

Were you not reading my argument with Fyxe? I do not think the game creators are wrong, I believe that the seal war described in ALttP was OoT. However, I think that their intentions changed with TWW. I know I said that in an earlier post.

If you say that their intentions change then you would have to agree that the quotes from the 90's have no meaning after TWW or Aonuma's interview.

but the difference is that I don't believe I am contradicting anyone.

The creator's intentions change but you are still contradicting their original intention about ALttP's Backstory being OoT's adult ending.

[Mad Scrub]

The Door was open because Link needed to get out. Otherwise he'd be sealed in the chamber. Notice how it closes immediately after he leaves.

We don't actually see the DoT close behind him though do we? He does close it but we don't see it.

[Fyxe]

We most certainly don't. It doesn't open for him when he appears and we don't see him close it. It's just open already and he has to close it himself.

[Arturo]

We know that when Link is sent to the past by Zelda, he has already opened the Door of Time. But Zelda is in the Castle Courtyard. Since you all seem to hate the Sages' Seal trascending time, I have got an idea. If you find a better explanation for that, then I will accept the Seal doesn't trascend timelines, if you don't....
it will be proved that the Sages' Seal trascends time.

[Doopliss]

The Sages' Seal trascends time because Nayru told me!!! Not really, I think it trascends time because of what you see in OoT's ending. When Link returns the MS to the Pedestal of Time, you see that the Dopor of Time is CLEARLY open. Do you remember what happened in OoT just before Link got the Ocarina of Time? Zelda and Impa escaping from Ganondorf. But in the ending, Zelda is shown in the Courtyard, so we can assume that Ganondorf is no more in Hyrule. He has been sealed. Then I can say why I think it's possible for the Seal to trascend Time. Let's see:
ALttP Japanese Maunal: The "god of wisdom" made science and magic, and awarded the land with natural order.
OoT. Nayru... Poured her wisdom onto the earth and gave the spirit of law to the world.

Nayru is asoccitaed with order. Last time I checked, time was part of this order. Plus, we have the Goddess of ime in MM, who is constantly asocciated with Zelda and the Ocarina of Time and the blue colour. Which Goddess is asocciated with these things? Nayru. Also, the Three Goddesses are atemporal, since they created Hyrule "Before time began, before spirits and life existed...". Hyrule is not the Sacred Realm , and I think that until Ganon wishes, the time flows in a strange way, Rauru doesn't age, buit Link does... And the Timeline... since Ganon wished what he wished, Sr has the same timeline as Hyrule, but just because of the wish. Initially it was atemporal, just as the Goddesses, and in some aspects it still is (Ganon doesn't age, for example). Yes, it's confusing, I know, so to make a little summary:

SR is temporal.
It shares the timeline of Hyrule.
Initially it was atemporal.
The wish of Ganon changes it.
Sages' Seal creation trascends time.
Ganon in Child Tiomeline is sealed while he is in the SR.

Clear enough?

I disagree with you. I don't think it is enough evidence to prove tou right to say that Zelda was in the courtyard. There are simpler and more credible explanations to this. The best one I can mention is that Zelda was waiting for Link in Hyrule Castle so she would give him the Ocarina before he left to Termina (this works both for a single and a split timeline).

The second part of your post is full of baseless and irrelevant speculations. It doesn't really matter if people age or not it the Sacred Realm and it will help prove nothing. You haven't provided enough arguments to back up that and your speculations about the power of the gods are quite wild. So there aren't enough proves yet to say that the seal trascends timelines. It's a nice and elaborated idea, but you must prove it exists.I beg your pardon if I was harsh on this post, but it is what I think and I did an effort to express it politely.

We know that when Link is sent to the past by Zelda, he has already opened the Door of Time. But Zelda is in the Castle Courtyard. Since you all seem to hate the Sages' Seal trascending time, I have got an idea. If you find a better explanation for that, then I will accept the Seal doesn't trascend timelines, if you don't....
it will be proved that the Sages' Seal trascends time.

You know that you'll have to do better than this to convince us...

[Hero of Slime]

If you find a better explanation for that

Here is one: the seal does not transcend time, Ganon is only sealed in the future, and all the games fall into one perfect single timeline.

[Fyxe]

The concept of a 'perfect single timeline' is an impossibility.

[MikePetersSucks]

Rauru isn't immortal for un-SR reasons just because he doesn't seem to go out of it, and he's not a spirit, he breathes. And. And the Dark World mirrors Hyruule just because Ganon got the Triforce. Plus, Ganon doesn't age.

The King of TWW breathed, and he was a ghost. And. The Sacred Realm is implied to mirror both Hyrule and the hearts of people who enter it. Ganon's lack of aging can be explained by either his possession of the Triforce of Power, his sorcery, or his status as a Gerudo. We don't know.

Who is inventing things now? The Door of time is not open for humanitary reasons, but to be open, needs that the three Spiritual Stones are on the Altar. The Door is open because Link has already opened it. And your theory is absolutely baseless, since there is no Sages' Seal, and Ganondorf is too powerful to be sealed by such a simpler way. And saying that Impa and Zelda would return after Ganon's attack is simply stupid:
"On that day seven years ago, Ganondorf suddenly attacked... and Hyrule Castle surrendered after a short time.Ganondorf's target was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm...the hidden treasure of the Royal Family... The Ocarina of Time!My duty bound me to take Zelda out of Ganondorf's reach. When last I saw you, as we made our escape from the castle, you were just a lad..." Impa after you awaken her.
As Impa implies, they didn't come back because ganon was stuill around. I'm not inventing *Navi*, you have just done it.

1) According to that theory, the Spiritual Stones are already in the Altar. Ah-doy.
2) The Four Sword held Ganon just fine. I think the Master Sword can hold Ganondorf just as well.
3) That quote only works because Link slept for seven years. But, oh mah gawd. Even without the time split, time travel tends to change history. lawl.
4) You're still inventing crap, and this theory, which I didn't even invent, mind you, and is used by a large chunk of the fanbase, makes more sense that your atemporal bullocks.

[mohammedali]

I think that when Zelda sends Link back he goes to the Time when he is still sleeping in the sacred realm. He then goes to termina. After that his sleeping self wakes up, saves hyrule, and is sent back in time by Zelda.
From Links perspective the adult ending of OoT happens before MM, but the real chronological order puts the adult ending after MM.

You said it yourself. If we take WW to happen after the adult ending, then MM didn't happen. If OTOH you assume the adult ending is after MM (chronologically), then there is no point in stating that WW is 100s of years after the adult ending. So either MM never happens if WW happen (unacceptable) or MM and WW happen in seperate timelines (much more likely).

You are doing the same thing, in saying that the events of OoT's adult ending are not ALttP's BS, you to are contradicting the what the game creators impilied in the 90's. We both think that TWW makes it impossible for the creators original intentions to be true. If it is wrong for me to contradict the creators original intentions then it is wrong for you to do it also.

The creators intended for OoT to be aLttP BS in the late 90s. This was later reinforced by aLttP GBA version where changes were made that made to aLttP to make it more compatable with OoT.
Also, the fact that OoT is supposed to be aLttP BS, there is no reason why the child part of OoT is the part that correlates to aLttP BS. Just because the adult part of OoT isn't exactly the same as aLttP BS, could mean that it's just not part of aLttP BS, whilst the child part is.

Fyxe, I will continue to say that the creator's quotes about OoT came from the 90's because it is true. The quotes did come from the 90's, 1999 is still in the 90's and not in this decade.
I want you to explain a split timeline to me since Arturo keeps contradicting himself. If ALttP is on the child ending, how can it's backstory be the events of OoT's adult ending? Before TWW, when the creators made their statements about the IW, didn't they intend for OoT's adult ending to be the IW?

Who cares if it's 90s. Fact is, it was clearly holding without dispute into the 00s, but in any case it doesn't matter. You have to provide proof for why it is incorrect. Time limits don't work. I can't say Zelda 1 is not cannon because it's really old. It makes no sence.
As for how the split works, I consider aLttP to come after the child ending, with the IW being part in child OoT and the rest following on, hence being different to the adult part of OoT.

Mohammed Ali

Edited by mohammedali, 28 June 2006 - 01:24 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

I think that the game creators intended for the IW to be the events of OoT(The sealing of Ganon). When you say that the events of the IW happen after the child ending, you are still putting the IW as an event after OoT. You still are saying that ALttP's BS happens after OoT. Now that is not that different form me putting the IW after FSA, we are both contradicting the creators original intentions of OoT being the IW.

Now, when I do contradict the creators original intentions. I am not doing so because I think the quotes are too old. I think they are invalid because I do not believe that the game creators still consider the IW to be OoT. I believe the game creators can change their minds, and they did so when they made TWW.

[Arturo]

I disagree with you. I don't think it is enough evidence to prove tou right to say that Zelda was in the courtyard. There are simpler and more credible explanations to this. The best one I can mention is that Zelda was waiting for Link in Hyrule Castle so she would give him the Ocarina before he left to Termina (this works both for a single and a split timeline).

Of course it fits, but youa re not explaining why Zelda is in such an unsafe place. Plus, in MM beggining it's implied that Ganondorf has been defeated also in the Child Timeline. By whom?
Zelda would not come back to Hyrule with Ganondorf stikll around, because she didn't in OoT. We can assume then that Ganon is not anymore in Hyrule, but sealed in the SR. The question is not why Zelda is in the Courtyrad, but HOW (if Ganon's around, it's too dangerous) is she in there. And I haven't found any theory better than the Seal trascending time.

The second part of your post is full of baseless and irrelevant speculations. It doesn't really matter if people age or not it the Sacred Realm and it will help prove nothing. You haven't provided enough arguments to back up that and your speculations about the power of the gods are quite wild. So there aren't enough proves yet to say that the seal trascends timelines. It's a nice and elaborated idea, but you must prove it exists.I beg your pardon if I was harsh on this post, but it is what I think and I did an effort to express it politely.

I know it's irrelevant, but it's not baseless either. I only talked about it because someone asked me. Regarding the Timeline-trascendin Sages' Seal I am not to blame if there aren't enough proofs to backup the theory. It's the creators who are to. If they imply it in the ending, it's not my fault that there isn't more evidence. Just it: Ganon is not around in the Child Ending. If you've got a better theory than that to explain why Ganon is sealed, tell me, and I will listen. But you have failed at disproving my theory, you have just said it's impossible and wild. And that are not reasons. Einsten's Relativity is wild and it has been proved to be (almost) correct. You have failed at disproving my theory.

Here is one: the seal does not transcend time, Ganon is only sealed in the future, and all the games fall into one perfect single timeline.

And what do you do with ALttP and TWW? Do you elliminate TWW from the timeline? It doesn't fit with the others.

A Single Timeline simply doesn't work. And I have seen lots of them and neither of them works.

The concept of a 'perfect single timeline' is an impossibility.

I have yet to find a Single Timeline theory that actually works. Even if you say OoT is not the SW, there are still too many plotholes (Where do you put TWW, for example?).

The King of TWW breathed, and he was a ghost. And. The Sacred Realm is implied to mirror both Hyrule and the hearts of people who enter it. Ganon's lack of aging can be explained by either his possession of the Triforce of Power, his sorcery, or his status as a Gerudo. We don't know.
1) According to that theory, the Spiritual Stones are already in the Altar. Ah-doy.
2) The Four Sword held Ganon just fine. I think the Master Sword can hold Ganondorf just as well.
3) That quote only works because Link slept for seven years. But, oh mah gawd. Even without the time split, time travel tends to change history. lawl.
4) You're still inventing crap, and this theory, which I didn't even invent, mind you, and is used by a large chunk of the fanbase, makes more sense that your atemporal bullocks.

It's never said that the King is a ghost. He can touch the Triforce and wish while spirits can't. He's alive.
The SR is never said to resemble Hyrule:

The resting place of the sacred triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a mirror that reflects what is in the heart...
the heart of one who enters it...
If an evil heart, the Realm will become full of evil; if pure, the Realm will become a paradise.

Maybe I'm not reading it well, but it doesn't say ANYTHING about Hyrule. The DW in ALttP is like that because of Ganon's wish of Hyrule to be his. Both Zelda and Link die, even though they have part of the Triforce, and Gerudos certainly age (see Twinrova).

1) According to which theory: According to mine of course, since he comes back on a time he has already got the MS. According to yours, I don't think so. So the DoT isn't open.

2)The MS can be a marvelous Seal. But it still isn't the Sages' Seal, and in ALttP he is improsoned because of Sages' Seal, but not because of the MS.

3) But because of this quote we know of Impa's intentions. To take Zelda to a safe place, and while Ganon is around, it doesn't matter whether he has or not the Triforce, Impa doesn't consider Hyrule Castle to be safe, he can attack it using his army.

4) Quantity doesn't mean quality. Also, it's aboslutley fanficcish to say the DoT it's open because Link has to go out and that Link is so slow at returning the MS that Ganon is sealed inside. I think a better theory is saying Tingle, the Hero of the Child Timeline, combiend his power with the Seven Sages to seal Ganon.

[mohammedali]

I think that the game creators intended for the IW to be the events of OoT(The sealing of Ganon). When you say that the events of the IW happen after the child ending, you are still putting the IW as an event after OoT. You still are saying that ALttP's BS happens after OoT. Now that is not that different form me putting the IW after FSA, we are both contradicting the creators original intentions of OoT being the IW.

I said that the adult part of OoT wasn't the IW or aLttP BS, but the child part of OoT still is. It's the part where Ganon gets the Triforce and can't find his way back into the lightworld.

Now, when I do contradict the creators original intentions. I am not doing so because I think the quotes are too old. I think they are invalid because I do not believe that the game creators still consider the IW to be OoT. I believe the game creators can change their minds, and they did so when they made TWW.

Unless you were told by the creators themselves, you can't make an informed decision about if they changed their mind unless you have actual proof. Otherwise, one could dispute anything a creator says by insisting that they 'must have changes their minds since then'.

Mohammed Ali

[MikePetersSucks]

It's never said that the King is a ghost. He can touch the Triforce and wish while spirits can't. He's alive.
The SR is never said to resemble Hyrule:

The resting place of the sacred triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a mirror that reflects what is in the heart...
the heart of one who enters it...
If an evil heart, the Realm will become full of evil; if pure, the Realm will become a paradise.

Maybe I'm not reading it well, but it doesn't say ANYTHING about Hyrule. The DW in ALttP is like that because of Ganon's wish of Hyrule to be his. Both Zelda and Link die, even though they have part of the Triforce, and Gerudos certainly age (see Twinrova).

1) According to which theory: According to mine of course, since he comes back on a time he has already got the MS. According to yours, I don't think so. So the DoT isn't open.

2)The MS can be a marvelous Seal. But it still isn't the Sages' Seal, and in ALttP he is improsoned because of Sages' Seal, but not because of the MS.

3) But because of this quote we know of Impa's intentions. To take Zelda to a safe place, and while Ganon is around, it doesn't matter whether he has or not the Triforce, Impa doesn't consider Hyrule Castle to be safe, he can attack it using his army.

4) Quantity doesn't mean quality. Also, it's aboslutley fanficcish to say the DoT it's open because Link has to go out and that Link is so slow at returning the MS that Ganon is sealed inside. I think a better theory is saying Tingle, the Hero of the Child Timeline, combiend his power with the Seven Sages to seal Ganon.

It's never SAID he's a ghost, but he can teleport around, possess a wooden boat, and live under water for hundreds of years? Riiiight. Mmmhmm. Also, nowhere in Zelda canon is it ever said that the Triforce cannot be touched by spirits, and even if so, I wouldn't be surprised if Hyrule's monarchy had a Divine Right thing going on with all the Zelda jazz.

The Sacred Realm is never said to resemble Hyrule, even though it totally does? Hmm. Kinda fits how you insist the Seal transcends dimensions and there's no proof of that whatsoever in all the nine hells. Hypocrite.

Yes, Twinrova does age, but they're also purportedly hundreds of years old, which makes sense if only one male is born every 100 years. I'd expect Gerudos to live atleast THAT long. Not to mention that Ganondorf can be actively using his Triforce piece to extend his lifespan even though Zelda and Link can resign to their mortal destinies. Afterall, just because Zelda and Link don't turn into demons with their pieces doesn't mean Ganon can't, and he totally does. He also lives underwater in Hyrule for hundreds of years biding his effing time.

1) According to both our theories, Link comes out after he drew the Master Sword the first time. Read "mine" carefully. You're starting an arguement over something we fricking agree on.

2) I never said "My" theory was right. Just that it was a better alternative. There's a possibility that the Sealing War happened while Link was in Termina. There's all sorts of ways to deal with this, but a seal transcending dimensions in order for a Gerudo King to just poof into thin air is incredibly lame and unsound.

3) Doesn't mean The Castle can't become safe at another time because of changed events in the Child Timeline, like Ganondorf getting sealed away or something.

4) The Door of Time was open because Link opened it with the Spiritual Stones. LOOK AT MY THEORY! Good god. And I'm sure it would also take Ganondorf more than five minutes to find the Triforce, too, and if Link is warped to the minute where Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm, well there you go.

I know it's irrelevant, but it's not baseless either. I only talked about it because someone asked me. Regarding the Timeline-trascendin Sages' Seal I am not to blame if there aren't enough proofs to backup the theory. It's the creators who are to. If they imply it in the ending, it's not my fault that there isn't more evidence. Just it: Ganon is not around in the Child Ending. If you've got a better theory than that to explain why Ganon is sealed, tell me, and I will listen. But you have failed at disproving my theory, you have just said it's impossible and wild. And that are not reasons. Einsten's Relativity is wild and it has been proved to be (almost) correct. You have failed at disproving my theory.

Clearly it is your fault if your theory doesn't have enough evidence to support yourself. That's like saying it's Nintendo's fault that there's no proof that Tingle is Link from the future. He may have failed at disproving your theory, but you failed at proving it, and as the theory's presentor, it's YOUR burden to prove it, not his burden to unprove it.

[Hero of Slime]

And what do you do with ALttP and TWW? Do you elliminate TWW from the timeline? It doesn't fit with the others.

In my signature you will see my timeline right below the MH banner. It shows where I put TWW and ALttP.

but the child part of OoT still is. It's the part where Ganon gets the Triforce and can't find his way back into the lightworld.

We never see those events happen in OoT, so you are contradicting the game creators when they say OoT is the IW. I still think the game creators intended for OoT to be the IW.

you can't make an informed decision about if they changed their mind unless you have actual proof.

I have proof, TWW and FSA. The fact that they come between OoT and ALttP in a single timeline shows that the game creators do not think of OoT as ALttP's BS.

[Doopliss]

Of course it fits, but youa re not explaining why Zelda is in such an unsafe place. Plus, in MM beggining it's implied that Ganondorf has been defeated also in the Child Timeline. By whom?
Zelda would not come back to Hyrule with Ganondorf stikll around, because she didn't in OoT. We can assume then that Ganon is not anymore in Hyrule, but sealed in the SR. The question is not why Zelda is in the Courtyrad, but HOW (if Ganon's around, it's too dangerous) is she in there. And I haven't found any theory better than the Seal trascending time.

What tells you it actually happened as you think? The explanation fits fine, but there's no reason to believe it happened that way. What about this: The Imprisoning War takes place before Link gets back to the past? It's simpler, isn't it? And it's free from wild speculations.

I know it's irrelevant, but it's not baseless either. I only talked about it because someone asked me. Regarding the Timeline-trascendin Sages' Seal I am not to blame if there aren't enough proofs to backup the theory. It's the creators who are to. If they imply it in the ending, it's not my fault that there isn't more evidence. Just it: Ganon is not around in the Child Ending. If you've got a better theory than that to explain why Ganon is sealed, tell me, and I will listen. But you have failed at disproving my theory, you have just said it's impossible and wild. And that are not reasons. Einsten's Relativity is wild and it has been proved to be (almost) correct. You have failed at disproving my theory.

Ok, OI haven't proved it wrong, but you haven't proved it is right. Please, think about it. How do you expect us to believe something you just pulled out of your mind without any back up?

And what do you do with ALttP and TWW? Do you elliminate TWW from the timeline? It doesn't fit with the others.

A Single Timeline simply doesn't work. And I have seen lots of them and neither of them works.
I have yet to find a Single Timeline theory that actually works. Even if you say OoT is not the SW, there are still too many plotholes (Where do you put TWW, for example?).

Here is a nice thoery, written by me.

http://forums.legend...?showtopic=9079

[Arturo]

What tells you it actually happened as you think? The explanation fits fine, but there's no reason to believe it happened that way. What about this: The Imprisoning War takes place before Link gets back to the past? It's simpler, isn't it? And it's free from wild speculations.

Have you read my complete theory about the IW? I will make you a little summary: Link gets the MS and is sealed in the SR, Ganon gets in the SR, gets his part of the Triforce, and his evil starts to spread across the kingdom of Hyrule (but Ganon doesn't go out of the SR yet). Then, after the Knights fight with that evil, and after that Ganon is sealed, because so is him in the Future Timeline. Then Link comes back and tells the King who the Sagse are. Then the Legend gets distorted and there you are, the Seal War.
But wyou haven't still explained me how the war happens in Child Hyrule. You have just said that it happens before Link gets back to Hyrule. My theory yes, yours, you haven't explained it yet"

Ok, OI haven't proved it wrong, but you haven't proved it is right. Please, think about it. How do you expect us to believe something you just pulled out of your mind without any back up?

I have backed it up, and I have already told all of you the evidence. But the problem is that you think it's too wild. That's why I ask you to find a better way, becauseI don't think there is. My theory is the only one that fits completely with OoT Ending.

Here is a nice thoery, written by me.

http://forums.legend...?showtopic=9079

Yes, it's quite nice, but there are a few problems. You said that the people in OoT don't have as much knowledge of the Triforce as in ALttP. That is false. In OoT it is remembered who the Three Golden Goddesses, and all those legends, but in ALttP not. They just remeber gods, but not Goddesses. Putting the SW outside of OoT is really far from what creators implied. Geography in OoT is very simmillar to that of ALttP, but not to LoZ, so it must be nearer to the former. It is implied many times that OoT Ganon is the same as ALttP. Also, it's implied that the OoT one is first. But it's a quite ellaborate theory, and I agree with you that TWW should be last. But not much more.

[Doopliss]

I perfectly understand your thoery, but please explain why the seal would trascent time. I actually agree with Tri-Enofrcer.

Yes, it's quite nice, but there are a few problems. You said that the people in OoT don't have as much knowledge of the Triforce as in ALttP. That is false. In OoT it is remembered who the Three Golden Goddesses, and all those legends, but in ALttP not. They just remeber gods, but not Goddesses. Putting the SW outside of OoT is really far from what creators implied. Geography in OoT is very simmillar to that of ALttP, but not to LoZ, so it must be nearer to the former. It is implied many times that OoT Ganon is the same as ALttP. Also, it's implied that the OoT one is first. But it's a quite ellaborate theory, and I agree with you that TWW should be last. But not much more.

Those minor details can't disrpove my theory... And, it seems like it is much more difficult to take the IW and OoT as the same in a single timeline...

[Arturo]

I perfectly understand your thoery, but please explain why the seal would trascent time.

I cannot explain you why it does, but I know it does because it's the only exaplanation for the things we know from the OoT Ending. Asking why the Sages' Seal trascends time is like asking why the Triforce breaks into three when someone with unbalanced heart touches it or why Zelda and Link are reinacarnated many times. They don't have an explanation. They are facts.
The only things I can explain is what eveidences I have to think the Sages' Seal trascends time, and why it is possible for it to trascend time. The evidences I have is that Ganondorf is not around in the Child Ending. And since we know that in ALttP he is said to be sealed by the Sages, I conclude that Ganondorf is sealed by the Sages. But Link is not there anymore to awaken them.... From this evidence I think that the Sages' Seal from the Adult Timeline somehow is able to seal also the Ganondorf of the Child Timeline. And this is possible just because it's the goddesses who seal him, and they are omnipotent and created time, so they can control it.

I know it's difficult to accept, and I don'tr expect you to. I just want you to know what I think and why I think so.

[Doopliss]

I don't think it is a fact that the seal trascends time. I have told you before that I don't agree with you because I think that saying that Ganon wasn't in the castle isn't enough to prove that the seal trascends timelines. I have given you two explanations that need less speculation. The example you mentioned about the Triforce's split is different, because we are explicity told that there's an split. On the other hand, we aren't told either explicity nor implicity that the seal trascends timelines. In other words, you haven't given me enough proves to not think that you are simply making up your theory without any solid proof.

Thank you for telling me what you think about the topic. I appreciate it. It's just that I can't accept something that hasn't been proved right.

[Arturo]

I don't think it is a fact that the seal trascends time. I have told you before that I don't agree with you because I think that saying that Ganon wasn't in the castle isn't enough to prove that the seal trascends timelines. I have given you two explanations that need less speculation. The example you mentioned about the Triforce's split is different, because we are explicity told that there's an split. On the other hand, we aren't told either explicity nor implicity that the seal trascends timelines. In other words, you haven't given me enough proves to not think that you are simply making up your theory without any solid proof.

Thank you for telling me what you think about the topic. I appreciate it. It's just that I can't accept something that hasn't been proved right.

We are told implicitly, both in OoT, where Ganon isn't around anymore, and in MM, where it's stated that Link defeated the devil. This devil, Ganon is just defeated in the Aduult Timelien, and Link could also do it in the Adult one. But in the Child one he's also defeated. The Sages' Seal trascends time.

Thank you for appreaciating my opinions on the topic