399 replies to this topic

[coinilius]

The SNES version was never accurate, that was an addition of the bad NoA translation.

I know, I just find it funny considering that a generation is generally considered to be about 25 -30 years in length, making it only about 75-100 years prior

[Hero of Slime]

Who made you King of the Timelines? It's not a Mike Peters-ism in the slightest. Seriously, who died and made you Timey McTimelord? Thou speaks words without giving reasoning.No. Not really. Especially not FSA. But not TWW either.

You said "TWW is a what if" in your explaination of the Gaiden timeline. Didn't Mike Peters have the same theory? My reasoning behind not accepting the Gaiden timeline as a legitimate Timeline is that it is a MikePeters-ism and is no better than simply saying that all games are on there own realities. I admit that aonuma could have suggested a split timeline in his interview so I think they are legitimate. In a single Timeline TWW means that IW can not be OoT and if FSA comes before ALttP as I think that it does then it also shows that IW can not be OoT ,even in a split timeline. Since those games were both made in this decade, I think they show the creators no longer believe that the IW is OoT.

[Fyxe]

Alright, Timey McTimelord, I am not doing a Mike Peters because I am not erasing games from the timeline altogether. And I am not ignoring the obvious connections between the games.

However, what I am doing is coming up with ideas to make the TWW and ALttP thing work sensibly, because as it is there is no timeline connection between either game. As it is, neither of them work on the same timeline unless you assume Ganon was never fully released and that a new Hyrule will exist in the place of the old one, which are both big assumptions.

Alternatively, you can claim that the IW happens twice, once in OoT and once at some other point, but this defies normal logic and is extremely unfeasible, not to mention a MAJOR departure from the original concepts of the Zelda timeline. Also, there has never, ever been any indication from the creators that this is the case.

Therefore, with no extra evidence, that idea is debunked if you ask me. A possibility so negligable it's not worth worrying about very much.

So what are we left with? A split timeline that only half makes sense, or the concept of the gaiden timeline, an idea that already exists in other Nintendo series, most notably StarFox, which completely retold the first game and left StarFox 2 floating in the aether.

Both ideas have their flaws. I personally am split between the choices, but just because you say the gaiden timeline is taboo or whatever, doesn't mean you're right. I'm exploring the possibility and whether it truely is such an unreasonable suggestion, and I say that from a game design point of view, it is not an unreasonable suggestion at all. And that is the point of view that matters, not the point of view of a, lets face it, overly obsessive Zelda timeline online community.

[SOAP]

Okay, can we not use Mike Peters as a technical term anymore. You guys give the man too much credit. All he was a loser who was banned from a bunch of forums. That's nothing special. Lots of people get banned. They don't get immortalized and Mike Peters doesn't deserve the honor.

The SNES version was never accurate, that was an addition of the bad NoA translation.

How is NoA a bad translation? I don't understand why so many fans are such purists about preferring the original Japanese over the English translation. Aside from changing a few things to better suit American tastes, I don't see how NoA translations are inaccurate. I don't the original Japanese is any more superior than the translations. In fact I find them rather sketchier and rather ambiguous.

[Hero of Slime]

The Perfect Timeline:

OoT-MM-TWW
OoT-ALttP-LA
(IW)-ALttP-(SZ)-LoZ-AOL
TMC-FS-FSA
(IW)-ALttP-OoX

If thats not a real timeline then the Gaiden timeline isn't either.

Mike Peters said that TWW was a "what if". You are merely taking his theory further and saying that the what if story continues.

Alternatively, you can claim that the IW happens twice, once in OoT and once at some other point, but this defies normal logic and is extremely unfeasible, not to mention a MAJOR departure from the original concepts of the Zelda timeline. Also, there has never, ever been any indication from the creators that this is the case.

The IW dosn't happen twice, it happens once with OoT happening some time before that. It does not defy logic, since the events are not exactly identical making it possible for them to be different. So what if it is departure from the original concepts of the Zelda timeline, the Zelda Timeline changes. There is indication from the creators, TWW and FSA.

[Doopliss]

FSA is an example of history repeating itself. OoT and IW is an example of history *being the same*. You don't think that if ALttP happens before OoT (an idea that just makes me want to hit things due to it being *blatantly* against what the creators intended) that someone like Rauru in OoT would have mentioned 'y'know, someone called Ganon appeared before and got the whole Triforce and nearly took over the world'. There's no mention of it. No history. No indication of anything like that ever occuring. The backstory of OoT (and the backstory of the IW) is the creation of the world. You'd think they'd mention something as massive as the Triforce already being used. I think people would remember. Especially if it was used by someone with the exact same name, job description and sinister behavior as the one who lives beyond Gerudo Valley or whatever.

Again, it's still entirely unfeasible from the perspective of ALttP and OoT that the IW and OoT are seperate. If the IW happened before OoT (ugh) then in OoT, there should have been a reference to Ganon existing before, and some concept of the Triforce being used in the past. There is none. If the IW happens after OoT, then there should be some reference in the backstory of ALttP to the Triforce being used before the IW. There is none. Nothing. Not even a smidgen.

I'm sorry, but something like that doesn't just vanish from history.

But, there are indeed some references. In OoT it is said that the Temple of Time was created to protect the Triforce, but in the IW it seems like the people have never seen it, and they wouldn't know how to seal it, or why they should. And the Hylians have fogotten how to listen to the words of the gods. What about the Master Sword? It seems like it had been recently created in the IW, but in OoT it is placed in the Temple of Time and it seems old and forgotten. Why would the people use it as a seal in OoT if it was 'new'?

Your theory works nicely with the gaiden and the split timeline, but what about a single timeline?

[Tri-Enforcer]

And the Hylians have fogotten how to listen to the words of the gods. What about the Master Sword? It seems like it had been recently created in the IW, but in OoT it is placed in the Temple of Time and it seems old and forgotten.

Well according to the original Japanese translation of the IW story, the Master Sword was created long before Ganon even touched the Triforce. It wasn't created in response to Ganon...it was created beforehand in case any evil seized the Triforce. Personally, I still like the US translation better...simply because...well it is! However, the MS being created long before the IW does not fuel or douse the flaming notion of your take on the OOT-LttP connection.

However, I'm still convinced OOT and the IW are not the same event. 1) In the IW story, the search for a hero wield the MS was delayed due to the urgency of Ganon's threat. In OOT Link was already around when Ganon seized the Triforce and the sages (notably Rauru) had already found their man to uphold the sword--otherwise Link wouldn't of been held in stasis if it wasn't deemed that he's the man!

2.) During Ganon's sealing battle with the Knights and Sages, you'd think it would be mentioned, 'oh by the why...a hero was found to uphold the MS and it was used by him to help seal Ganon.' However that's not the case, it's simply stated that a search for a hero was delayed and it was left at that. I don't care what you say about crap being lost or forgotten over time. If a story that's been past along for ages can mention early on that the search for a hero was delayed...it could still be mentioned whether or not a hero was found or not later on. If anything that would sound more glorious and memorable. However, the only heroes in the IW were the Knights and the Sages.

3.) Ganon already has the whole Triforce in LttP and apparently was sealed with it when the Knights and sages defeated him. In OOT as we all know, Ganon was only sealed with the Triforce of Power.

4.) During the future portion of OOT the king was long gone and so was Hyrule Castle. In the IW story it is stated that Ganon and his forces were threatening the Castle and the King had ordered the Sages to seal Ganon and that final battle happened at the site of that castle. In OOT future, the castle and king are long gone and the final fight is held at Ganon's Tower.

5.) TWW (I need not go into detail)!!!

Despite all this...it is plausible that the IW has some relation to OOT in the effect of it happening years after Link is sent back as child in that respective timeline. It's basically what us Splitters call a 'split timeline'. That way every game matters in the grand scheme of things.

[Hero of Legend]

How is NoA a bad translation? I don't understand why so many fans are such purists about preferring the original Japanese over the English translation. Aside from changing a few things to better suit American tastes, I don't see how NoA translations are inaccurate. I don't the original Japanese is any more superior than the translations. In fact I find them rather sketchier and rather ambiguous.

The NoA translation sucks because not only does it change the original script (somthing that IS bad/wrong) but it also creates contradictions with OoT and other Zelda games not present in the Japanese version. There is no denying that it is wrong to believe that the MS was forged during the IW, or that Ganon will never return after ALttP, or the Goddesses didn't create the world for that matter. Saying that "it suits American tastes better" is just stupid because it is 1) Untrue 2) Doesn't validate any such changes anyway.

Personally, I still like the US translation better...simply because...well it is!

Why? I've read them both, and I don't think the US version is any "better" than the Japanese version. It’s not clearer or has more text or anything... Except when it makes stuff up. If anything, I'm annoyed by the American version's downplaying of Link's destiny and powers as the Legendary Hero.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 20 June 2006 - 05:55 AM.

[Arturo]

1) In the IW story, the search for a hero wield the MS was delayed due to the urgency of Ganon's threat. In OOT Link was already around when Ganon seized the Triforce and the sages (notably Rauru) had already found their man to uphold the sword--otherwise Link wouldn't of been held in stasis if it wasn't deemed that he's the man!

Well, while in a Single Timeline, this is problematic, assuming a Split Timeline, there's no problem with that. ALttP is in the Child Timeline, the details are confusing: from their point of view, Ganondorf attacked Hyrule, the Knights deffended it and were defeated, Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm through the Temple of Time, and then was sealed (because he's sealed in the Future Timeline, and the seal trascends time).

2.) During Ganon's sealing battle with the Knights and Sages, you'd think it would be mentioned, 'oh by the why...a hero was found to uphold the MS and it was used by him to help seal Ganon.' However that's not the case, it's simply stated that a search for a hero was delayed and it was left at that. I don't care what you say about crap being lost or forgotten over time. If a story that's been past along for ages can mention early on that the search for a hero was delayed...it could still be mentioned whether or not a hero was found or not later on. If anything that would sound more glorious and memorable. However, the only heroes in the IW were the Knights and the Sages.

Link is only hero on the Adult Timeline, so he's not known in ALttP, the confused details of the IW, are because Link, when he came back to the Child Timeline told all the details to the Royal Family. But since no-one else lived most of it, the details distorted.

3.) Ganon already has the whole Triforce in LttP and apparently was sealed with it when the Knights and sages defeated him. In OOT as we all know, Ganon was only sealed with the Triforce of Power.

For this, I have a complicated theory. So if you wouldn't like to get confused, head to the next question.
On the Adult Timeline Ganondorf has the ToP, Zelda the ToW and Link the ToC. When Link is sent by Zelda to the Child Timeline, the ToC remains in Adult Hyrule, and Zelda keeps it and divides it in 8 parts (as in TWW). But since no materia can be lost via the time travel, Child Link has the ToC on the Child Timeline (you see it on the ending). But Zelda doesn't have the ToW (you don't see it on her hand in the ending). Since the Triforce pieces tend to recombinate, it's safe to assume that Ganondorf has it. When Child Link abandons Hyrule to go to Termina, he's separated from the ellements that made him a hero, therefore, losing the ToC, that goes to Ganon's hands. Thus we have Two Timelines: an Adult Timeline where the ToP is in Ganon's hands, the ToW on Zelda's hands and the ToC divided in 8 parts and a Child Timeline where Ganon has the whole Triforce. If you don't understand, ask the Cucco

4.) During the future portion of OOT the king was long gone and so was Hyrule Castle. In the IW story it is stated that Ganon and his forces were threatening the Castle and the King had ordered the Sages to seal Ganon and that final battle happened at the site of that castle. In OOT future, the castle and king are long gone and the final fight is held at Ganon's Tower.

I don't need going on detail, since the ALttP happens on the Child Timeline, they only remember that Ganon attacked the Castle and was sealed.

5.) TWW (I need not go into detail)!!!

They are on separated timelines

Edited by Arturo, 20 June 2006 - 07:59 AM.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Hero Of Legend) Why? I've read them both, and I don't think the US version is any "better" than the Japanese version. It’s not clearer or has more text or anything... Except when it makes stuff up. If anything, I'm annoyed by the American version's downplaying of Link's destiny and powers as the Legendary Hero.

Whatever translation you go by, the overall story sucks anyway, so whatever. The US realized this and tried to make it better, unfortunately, it was a vain effort to an already crappy story. Maybe if Nintendo can take a page out of SquarEnix's books, they'd realize that it's still possible to write a good story without taking away from gameplay mechanics. I don't why Nintendo finds it so hard to make up a story that's more fleshed out. Then again...why care when people are going to buy and play the game anyway. Heck most people who play games are quick to press the start button to get past all the cinema and text--cuz they want to just play. I know this sounds odd to us storyline fanatics, but I kid you not--it's true.

(Arturo) Well, while in a Single Timeline, this is problematic, assuming a Split Timeline, there's no problem with that. ALttP is in the Child Timeline, the details are confusing: from their point of view, Ganondorf attacked Hyrule, the Knights deffended it and were defeated, Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm through the Temple of Time, and then was sealed (because he's sealed in the Future Timeline, and the seal trascends time).

Well that still wouldn't line up with the story told in the IW just as OOT doesn't. The way you describe it...is not like the IW we know of. Ganon's sealing ends in a climatic battle with the sages and Knights--not Ganon mistakenly going into some time anamoly that was created in an alternate future. Also you describe the final battle as if Ganon hadn't already been inside the Sacred Realm. He enter the realm and took the Triforce before he even fought the Knights and Sages. Your story is so not like the IW--it's as contradictary as assuming OOT being the IW.

Here's something that makes more sense--at least to me. Link is sent back to his original time as a child and Ganon is still a threat...however this time around...Link does not pull the Master Sword as he now knows what will happen. This throws a monkey ranch in Ganon's plans as well since we all know that Ganon was following Link in hopes of him opening the Sacred Realm. Link goes off to find Navi not knowing he'd be in for a long adventure. This is when he ends up in Termina. (Sidenote: Link doesn't have the ToC when he returns. The mark is glowing on his hand because it's a indicator that he once wielded the ToC--as we see something similar occur in TWW after the ToC is extracted from him in that game.) It's not clear if he returns from Termina or not. Meanwhile, back in Hyrule, Ganon eventually breaches the Sacred Realm quite by chance with his sorcerous magic. (maybe he eventually found something that works other him depending on Link).

Now, this is when things really begin to mirror the events of the IW described in LttP. Since Link is gone in Termina or wherever, the sages are unable to find someone to wield the Master Sword and the threat is too urgent to continue a search. Eventually the final battle ensues between the Knights-Sages and Ganon. Ganon is sealed along with the whole Triforce which sets up LttP nicely--on this timeline--without TWW standing in the way. TWW occurs on another timeline based off the Adult ending.

(Arturo) Link is only hero on the Adult Timeline, so he's not known in ALttP, the confused details of the IW, are because Link, when he came back to the Child Timeline told all the details to the Royal Family. But since no-one else lived most of it, the details distorted.

Refer to the above example.

(Arturo) On the Adult Timeline Ganondorf has the ToP, Zelda the ToW and Link the ToC. When Link is sent by Zelda to the Child Timeline, the ToC remains in Adult Hyrule, and Zelda keeps it and divides it in 8 parts (as in TWW). But since no materia can be lost via the time travel, Child Link has the ToC on the Child Timeline (you see it on the ending). But Zelda doesn't have the ToW (you don't see it on her hand in the ending).

Link doesn't have the ToC when he returns. The mark is glowing on his hand because it's a indicator that he once wielded the ToC--as we see something similar occur in TWW after the ToC is extracted from him in that game. Or you could say that the marks that we see at the end of both games are just mistakes or glitches. Whatever way you put it...you can't deny that Link's mark was still glowing after the ToC was extracted out of him by Ganon shortly before the final battle in TWW. When I say extracted I mean he literally no longer had the ToC--it was stripped from him--we see this happen. Whatever the reason the mark is still showing on Link in TWW after losing the ToC, has to be the same reason the mark is still shown at the end of OOT.

[Fyxe]

But, there are indeed some references. In OoT it is said that the Temple of Time was created to protect the Triforce, but in the IW it seems like the people have never seen it, and they wouldn't know how to seal it, or why they should.

Which is true for *everyone* in OoT except for Rauru, who seems to be closely tied with the ancient Hylians, the chosen people of the gods. But as for everyone else, they don't know what it was. Remember, the Imprisoning War is the bit where everyone's searching for the Triforce, this is long after the Temple of Time and the Master Sword were created. In fact, the story behind the Imprisoning War tells that the gods told the ancient Hylians to create the Master Sword - then by the time the Imprisoning War comes along, the knowledge of it's location is lost, along with the entrance to the Sacred Realm. OoT took this one step further by combining the two and giving the Master Sword a deeper purpose.

And the Hylians have fogotten how to listen to the words of the gods.

As they had in OoT as well. The Hylians in OoT were Hylians in name only.

What about the Master Sword? It seems like it had been recently created in the IW, but in OoT it is placed in the Temple of Time and it seems old and forgotten.

Not a problem if you avoid the stuff the NoA translation added.

Your theory works nicely with the gaiden and the split timeline, but what about a single timeline?

Well at least you're not raining hatred on the gaiden concept. Yes, a single timeline is difficult, but to be quite honest the single timeline has massive plotholes if you keep the IW and OoT seperate as well.

1) In the IW story, the search for a hero wield the MS was delayed due to the urgency of Ganon's threat. In OOT Link was already around when Ganon seized the Triforce and the sages (notably Rauru) had already found their man to uphold the sword--otherwise Link wouldn't of been held in stasis if it wasn't deemed that he's the man!

I don't remember it saying it was 'delayed', it just never told us what happened. And why is that a surprise? Link vanished into the past, only Zelda saw him fight Ganon. Also, do you think Rauru didn't hunt for someone else to take up the sword during those seven years Link was sealed? I mean, even if you do have a potential hero waiting, you don't just sit around for seven years while the world is doomed to ruin.

I don't care what you say about crap being lost or forgotten over time. If a story that's been past along for ages can mention early on that the search for a hero was delayed...it could still be mentioned whether or not a hero was found or not later on. If anything that would sound more glorious and memorable. However, the only heroes in the IW were the Knights and the Sages.

I can imagine him only being a legend in the eyes of the royal family (as seen in TWW), and eventually fading in the knowledge of the ordinary Hyruleans and then even the royals themselves. There was no 'hero' mentioned in the IW, they were simply searching for someone able to wield the sword. No legendary hero. As for the Knights, that is clearly stemmed from Link, or rather, Link stemmed from them, because you forget that OoT is a retelling. I suggest you look at those quotes from the designers and you look at my Zero Mission comparison again.

3.) Ganon already has the whole Triforce in LttP and apparently was sealed with it when the Knights and sages defeated him. In OOT as we all know, Ganon was only sealed with the Triforce of Power.

I don't remember it ever being explicitly stated that Ganon has the whole Triforce during the Imprisoning War, but if nobody knows where the remaining pieces are, it's not surprising people assumed Ganon got them back. Which he did. Or are you suggesting that the Ganon in the Imprisoning War was considered to have a balanced heart by the Triforce and never had to retrieve the other two pieces? I find that dubious.

In the IW story it is stated that Ganon and his forces were threatening the Castle and the King had ordered the Sages to seal Ganon and that final battle happened at the site of that castle. In OOT future, the castle and king are long gone and the final fight is held at Ganon's Tower.

It's true that Ganon must have threatened the castle (after all, he destroyed it) and that is near where Ganon fought some knights. But it's not said where exactly the fight occurs. Also, Ganon's Tower was on the site of Hyrule Castle anyway. As for the king, well, he was presumably killed, but Zelda instead ordered the sealing, so it was still a royal order. These are all minor things, though, things that were presumably added later, because nobody other than Zelda and the sages were left to tell the tale, and legends are written by the populice as a whole.

But all these minor discrepancies are meaningless. As I have stated before, OoT is a retelling of the IW. Of course it is different - it needs to work as a game. Link had to be inserted into the story, and they did this quite well by making him vanish into time as if he never existed. Almost all of the other major events are nigh-identical, and there's a good reason for this - the creators always intended OoT and the IW to be one and the same event. YES, there are differences, of COURSE there is, but that doesn't change their intentions, they're simply there to make a good game out of a vague story. Honestly, I don't give a damn if the legend told in ALttP says the king ordered the sealing or not - do you think the *designers* really care about minor piddling little details like that when they're making a game like OoT? They're too busy trying to make a good game and I doubt they ever expected some pedantics to come along and point out all the differences between the legend and the actual event. Like that matters.

Maybe if Nintendo can take a page out of SquarEnix's books, they'd realize that it's still possible to write a good story without taking away from gameplay mechanics.

*Deep breath* BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh you crack me up, Tri-Enforcer.

EDIT: One more thing...

Link doesn't have the ToC when he returns. The mark is glowing on his hand because it's a indicator that he once wielded the ToC

Bull-pizzle.

Edited by Fyxe, 20 June 2006 - 11:56 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Fo-shizzle.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Fyxe) I don't remember it saying it was 'delayed', it just never told us what happened. And why is that a surprise? Link vanished into the past, only Zelda saw him fight Ganon. Also, do you think Rauru didn't hunt for someone else to take up the sword during those seven years Link was sealed? I mean, even if you do have a potential hero waiting, you don't just sit around for seven years while the world is doomed to ruin.

*Sigh* If you read the Japanese translation (which you uphold so dearly) you'd see that to some effect it greatly implied that the search for a hero was delayed.

The Sages first had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to use it. However, the situation was urgent, and Ganon's malice was enclosing on the royal palace. Using the most of their powers, the Sages and Knights threw open a heroic battle with the evil one.

Now if that doesn't indicate a delay in the search...then something is wrong with you in the head. You see how the story mentions a search was conducted but then indicated the situation was too urgent...then the narrative cuts straight into the battle with the Knights and Sages against Ganon. Hello...no indication a of hero! Like I said before why mention a search was conducted...but not mention that a hero was found to join in on the final battle--that would've been just as glorious and memorable.

As for Rauru not searching for someone else...the guy helped build the Temple of Time and he and the other ancient sages were probably responsible for making the MS a key to the Sacred Realm. So he'd know what to expect from the Master Sword. Heck, he even told Link that the MS 'chose' him. No need to search for some other hero if the freakin' sword has found someone it likes! That's just a waist of time and energy. Since Link, for whatever reason, was not old enough to be the Hero of Time and wield the sword, the best and only thing was to place the hero in a deep sleep until his time comes. I'm sure it sucked waiting idle for 7 years while the kingdom is being destroyed, but hey that's just the way the story went--I'm not the writer!

Bull-pizzle.

That was a well though out counter. It doesn't help whatever argument you're making.

[Fyxe]

Now if that doesn't indicate a delay in the search...then something is wrong with you in the head. You see how the story mentions a search was conducted but then indicated the situation was too urgent...then the narrative cuts straight into the battle with the Knights and Sages against Ganon. Hello...no indication a of hero! Like I said before why mention a search was conducted...but not mention that a hero was found to join in on the final battle--that would've been just as glorious and memorable.

Don't ask me why, it doesn't make sense whether IW is OoT or not. Actually, it makes more sense if it IS OoT, because otherwise, why mention a hero at all if none ever existed? Why mention the Master Sword if it wasn't involved?

I'm sure it sucked waiting idle for 7 years while the kingdom is being destroyed, but hey that's just the way the story went--I'm not the writer!

Of course he knows that Link was chosen, but that doesn't mean he can't search for an alternative in the meantime. I doubt Shiek and Rauru were just sitting playing cards while Ganon destroyed the kingdom.

That was a well though out counter. It doesn't help whatever argument you're making.

No offense, but it didn't need to be a well thought out counter, because you didn't provide any back up to your statement, other than an example of the graphic designers being lazy (or simply forgetting to change something) in TWW. From what I hear, the Triforce crests are on and off and on again all throughout the final battle, depending on whether it is a cutscene or during in-game. It doesn't mean anything. It's just an oversight, unlike the final scene of OoT, where it was clearly intended to show that Link had the ToC.

[Hero of Slime]

Actually, it makes more sense if it IS OoT, because otherwise, why mention a hero at all if none ever existed? Why mention the Master Sword if it wasn't involved?

Foreshadowing, metioning the Hero and Master sword in ALttP's back story foreshadows the events in ALttP when Link becomes that Hero and uses that sword.

I suggest you look at those quotes from the designers and you look at my Zero Mission comparison again.

Get some valid quotes from this decade and perhaps then we will look at them, who has time for out-of-date evidence? The Metroid comparison does not really fit this scenario. The Zelda case adds a third factor, TWW and FSA. Games that come between the two events making it so that the events can not be the same.

(because he's sealed in the Future Timeline, and the seal trascends time).

Did you mean Transcends Time? If you did then I will tell you that the idea of Ganon transcending time is complete nonsence.

Edited by The Zol, 21 June 2006 - 12:52 AM.

[Fyxe]

Get some valid quotes from this decade and perhaps then we will look at them, who has time for out-of-date evidence?

OH RIGHT I'LL JUST GO ASK MIYAMOTO THEN, LET ME GET HIS NUMBER.

You're not GOING to get any more quotes about OoT because nobody's going to ask them in-depth questions about it's creative process anymore. I find it bizarre how you can discount some very clear quotes from only eight years ago (only two years away from this decade, by the way) and then come up with your own ideas that have absolutely no evidence at all, other than 'TWW exists so the IW must be seperate to OoT'. I'm sorry, but that's not exactly a full-fledged arguement. You need to come up with more than just that, because I have pointed out a variety of flaws on the concept that you have just ignored, and if you're just going to blindly repeat yourself all the time, then this arguement is meaningless and I don't know what you're doing in this topic. The topic is here to get some answers, not to stroke your own ego by making you right.

And arguing that creator quotes should be ignored in favour of a fan-based theory is worse than any Mike Petersism. I think we need a new term. The Zolism. Timey McTimelordism.

[Arturo]

Well that still wouldn't line up with the story told in the IW just as OOT doesn't. The way you describe it...is not like the IW we know of. Ganon's sealing ends in a climatic battle with the sages and Knights--not Ganon mistakenly going into some time anamoly that was created in an alternate future. Also you describe the final battle as if Ganon hadn't already been inside the Sacred Realm. He enter the realm and took the Triforce before he even fought the Knights and Sages. Your story is so not like the IW--it's as contradictary as assuming OOT being the IW.

Here's something that makes more sense--at least to me. Link is sent back to his original time as a child and Ganon is still a threat...however this time around...Link does not pull the Master Sword as he now knows what will happen. This throws a monkey ranch in Ganon's plans as well since we all know that Ganon was following Link in hopes of him opening the Sacred Realm. Link goes off to find Navi not knowing he'd be in for a long adventure. This is when he ends up in Termina. (Sidenote: Link doesn't have the ToC when he returns. The mark is glowing on his hand because it's a indicator that he once wielded the ToC--as we see something similar occur in TWW after the ToC is extracted from him in that game.) It's not clear if he returns from Termina or not. Meanwhile, back in Hyrule, Ganon eventually breaches the Sacred Realm quite by chance with his sorcerous magic. (maybe he eventually found something that works other him depending on Link).

My story is not contradictory if you think this way:
Seal War Japanese Manual: No-one knows where the entrance to the Sacred Realm is (Golden Land is a mistranslation), but once a group of thieves opened it. Ganondorf, their leader got the Triforce and his wish caused an evil mood to invade evil. Black clouds grew in number in the sky, and many sinister happenings began to occur. The King of Hyrule called upon the Seven Sages of Hyrule, as well as the Knights to seal the source of this evil. The people of Hyrule had meen told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane. The Sages first had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to use it. However, the situation was urgent, and Ganon's malice was enclosing on the royal palace. Using the most of their powers, the Sages and Knights threw open a heroic battle with the evil one. The Knights had valiantly used their bodies as shields during the fierce attack, and although they unfortunately perished when their strength had exhausted, this had given the Sages time to complete their Seal. The people celebrated their victory; Hyrule had been saved from Ganon's misuse of the Triforce's power. This battle, for its many sacrifices, was passed down to future generations as the "Seal War."

Seal War in my opinion: Ganondorf attacks Hyrule, looking for the Ocarina of Time (though what we see doesn't look like an attack, Impa implies it), Link opened the Door of Time, took off the Master Sword and (from their point of view) disappeared with it. Ganondorf, after attacking Hyrule for second time, enters in the Sacred Realm, and touches the Triforce. He uses his power to convert the Sacred Realm in a world of monsters and makes the evil of the Realm invade the world. Anxiously, the Hylians and the King looked for the missing Master Sword and the Hero who would use it. The Knights of Hyrule have to resist the attack, while Ganon uses his power to invade Hyrule, is suddenly sealed. Immediately after that, Zelda goes back to Hyrule and then Link meets her with the ToC on his hand. He tells her and her father whathas happened and tells the King who the Sages are, so that they might be protected from possible enemies (i. e. Twinrova...). Link goes to Termina and his legend is only known by the Royal Family.

There are some contradictions between this two stories, but they can be resolved by thinking this way: the things that are not known by the people are more easely distorted, and since most of the Seal War hapopened on the Future Timeline, details get distorted.

Now, this is when things really begin to mirror the events of the IW described in LttP. Since Link is gone in Termina or wherever, the sages are unable to find someone to wield the Master Sword and the threat is too urgent to continue a search. Eventually the final battle ensues between the Knights-Sages and Ganon. Ganon is sealed along with the whole Triforce which sets up LttP nicely--on this timeline--without TWW standing in the way. TWW occurs on another timeline based off the Adult ending.

Emmm
Link is in Termina for Three Days . Unless we are talking about the war beteween Tanzania and Great Britain that lasted 20 minutes, I don't think that a war would last only that time. A further contradiction: which Sages are you talking about? the Ancient Sages are all (except for Rauru) dead, and the others are not awaken, and only the power of the Hero can awaken them, if they are not able to do it themselves. And Darunia, Ruto and Nabooru couldn't until Link awoke them.

Link doesn't have the ToC when he returns. The mark is glowing on his hand because it's a indicator that he once wielded the ToC--as we see something similar occur in TWW after the ToC is extracted from him in that game. Or you could say that the marks that we see at the end of both games are just mistakes or glitches. Whatever way you put it...you can't deny that Link's mark was still glowing after the ToC was extracted out of him by Ganon shortly before the final battle in TWW. When I say extracted I mean he literally no longer had the ToC--it was stripped from him--we see this happen. Whatever the reason the mark is still showing on Link in TWW after losing the ToC, has to be the same reason the mark is still shown at the end of OOT.

The Triforce is a difficult topic, and I think it can trascend time and space. There is no reason for Link losing it. Anyway, if Link has already lost it, it only confirms my theory, Ganon has it . In the Child timeline, Ganon has the WHOLE Triforce. But I still think he loses it when he abandons Termina. You don't feel anything special when Link has the ToC, maybe it's just indicating something, maybe it's just a proof for Link, because of it, it glows when he meets Zelda.

EDIT:

Foreshadowing, metioning the Hero and Master sword in ALttP's back story foreshadows the events in ALttP when Link becomes that Hero and uses that sword.
Get some valid quotes from this decade and perhaps then we will look at them, who has time for out-of-date evidence? The Metroid comparison does not really fit this scenario. The Zelda case adds a third factor, TWW and FSA. Games that come between the two events making it so that the events can not be the same.

Then why have they corrected the translation of ALttP in GBA so that it might fit better OoT?

Ignoring facts just because they don't fit well on your timeline is not the best way. Creators are right whenever they don't invent things or contradict in-game evidence. And creators intended OoT to be the Seal War.

Did you mean Transcends Time? If you did then I will tell you that the idea of Ganon transcending time is complete nonsence.

Ganon doesn't trascend time. It's the Seal. What I mean is that if Ganon is sealed on the Adult Timeline, he is in the Child Timeline. It's not the Sages who seal him , but the three Goddesses, and they trascend time, so do both the Triforce and the Sages' Seal.

Edited by Arturo, 21 June 2006 - 09:03 AM.

[Doopliss]

Ok, Fyxe. Then, the IW and OoT can be the same in a split or gaiden timeline, because it is what the creators intended and it wroks nicely following Arturo's theory. However, there are a lot of problems with that if you use a single, so they are separate in a single timeline because TWW, the IW and OoT must be in the same timeline. So it depends on how you connect the games. Do you agree?

[MikePetersSucks]

Alright, the Goddesses transcend time and space. The Goddesses made the Seal. Thus the Seal transcends all time and space. By that logic, Link, Zelda, and pretty much the entire universe transcends time and space.

[Tri-Enforcer]

(Fyxe) Don't ask me why, it doesn't make sense whether IW is OoT or not. Actually, it makes more sense if it IS OoT, because otherwise, why mention a hero at all if none ever existed? Why mention the Master Sword if it wasn't involved?

(Zol) Foreshadowing, metioning the Hero and Master sword in ALttP's back story foreshadows the events in ALttP when Link becomes that Hero and uses that sword.

That's the way I thought of it as well, Zol. Mentioning 'the Hero' or 'Master Sword' in the introduction helps set up aLttP and what it's about. If a hero existed, then he'd certainly be glorified and remembered if he were successful. Instead it's the Knights and Sages who were remembered and glorified. If you look at the intro to TWW or even the Minish Cap...the 'hero' of that time period is remembered for saving the day. Why wouldn't 'the hero' be remembered in the aLttP intro if he appeared in the intro to those games? That just doesn't make sense to me.

(Fyxe) Of course he knows that Link was chosen, but that doesn't mean he can't search for an alternative in the meantime. I doubt Shiek and Rauru were just sitting playing cards while Ganon destroyed the kingdom.

Well of course...however I don't think it involved finding someone other than sleeping beauty to take on Ganon directly. From what Rauru and Shiek had to say, it's greatly implied that all they've done during those 7 years was either hiding or running from Ganon. So yeah they did something--they got little.

(Fyxe) No offense, but it didn't need to be a well thought out counter, because you didn't provide any back up to your statement, other than an example of the graphic designers being lazy (or simply forgetting to change something) in TWW. From what I hear, the Triforce crests are on and off and on again all throughout the final battle, depending on whether it is a cutscene or during in-game. It doesn't mean anything. It's just an oversight, unlike the final scene of OoT, where it was clearly intended to show that Link had the ToC.

Oh that's really nice how you just blow off what we see in the TWW...how convenient for what YOU WANT to believe. Mind you, I also provided sufficient evidence for my statements about the mark. To further add to what I've already pointed out: In MM, which happens immediately after OOT, there are scenes that show Link and Zelda together and also you're briefly in Hyrule before going to Termina. (I'm setting this up so that I hear no, 'but he's in Termina excuses') During the brief time he's in Hyrule and with Zelda...I don't see any mark on Link. Now what? Lets here all the fanfic explanations on this.

(Arturo) Seal War in my opinion: Ganondorf attacks Hyrule, looking for the Ocarina of Time (though what we see doesn't look like an attack, Impa implies it), Link opened the Door of Time, took off the Master Sword and (from their point of view) disappeared with it. Ganondorf, after attacking Hyrule for second time, enters in the Sacred Realm, and touches the Triforce.

That's kinda stupid. Why doesn't Ganon just enter the realm once Link pulls the MS as done in OOT? You do realize, that in OOT at least, the MS opens the entrance to the Sacred Realm don't you? And what do you mean by a second time? What, he attacks the castle and leaves after Link pulls the MS, then comes back again? That's totally not the way OOT went. Ganon was waiting on Link to pull the sword, which opened the entrance and gained Ganon access to the Triforce. I'm sorry, but that's the way OOT really happened and I don't see how what you're saying helps to make IW the same as OOT. Maybe I'm missing something here, or you're writing too fast and made some mistakes.

(Arturo) He uses his power to convert the Sacred Realm in a world of monsters and makes the evil of the Realm invade the world. Anxiously, the Hylians and the King looked for the missing Master Sword and the Hero who would use it. The Knights of Hyrule have to resist the attack, while Ganon uses his power to invade Hyrule, is suddenly sealed. Immediately after that, Zelda goes back to Hyrule and then Link meets her with the ToC on his hand. He tells her and her father whathas happened and tells the King who the Sages are

Ok, I'm thinking you're jumping from concept to concept without properly indicating it, but let me see if I'm understanding what the hell you're talking about. When the king sends the knights to battle Ganon are you saying that Link participates in this battle, then Ganon is sealed? Or is Link somewhere else? Then you jump and say Zelda goes back to Hyrule....uhmmm wasn't Zelda in the final battle in OOT and aren't they already in Hyrule? Are you saying the the Seal War happens afte Link returns to the past? I'm not bothering to rebutt anything you say until you properly indicate where why and how, cuz you're confusing me now.

(Arturo) Emmm
Link is in Termina for Three Days . Unless we are talking about the war beteween Tanzania and Great Britain that lasted 20 minutes, I don't think that a war would last only that time. A further contradiction: which Sages are you talking about? the Ancient Sages are all (except for Rauru) dead, and the others are not awaken, and only the power of the Hero can awaken them, if they are not able to do it themselves. And Darunia, Ruto and Nabooru couldn't until Link awoke them.

Emmmm, where did you hear me say that Link even returns from Termina? Also, there's a possibility that years may go by before Ganon is able to find another means into the Sacred Realm, and also would've given the sages sufficient time to grow into their roles. Also,' it's not the hero who necessarily awakens the sages, it really the cry of a voice from the Sacred Realm that awakens them...that's actually stated in OOT by the way. The reason Link had to awaken them was because Ganon had the sages in captivity and they couldn't hear the voice in that state.

(Arturo) The Triforce is a difficult topic, and I think it can trascend time and space. There is no reason for Link losing it. Anyway, if Link has already lost it, it only confirms my theory, Ganon has it . In the Child timeline, Ganon has the WHOLE Triforce. But I still think he loses it when he abandons Termina. You don't feel anything special when Link has the ToC, maybe it's just indicating something, maybe it's just a proof for Link, because of it, it glows when he meets Zelda.

How would that confirm your theory that Ganon has the ToC if Link doesn't have it when he returns to the past? When Link goes back in time...everything is as is. Ganon is still around and the Triforce is still within the Sacred Realm...only this time around Link DOES NOT pull the Master Sword, preventing Ganon from entering, at least for the time being--that's quite simple. Makes more sense than the seal or Triforce transcending time. Then, years later (and after Link does not return from Termina), the true events of the IW begin to unfold as described in aLttP. What's wrong with things happening that way? It's simple and flows nicely into aLttP. So yes, Ganon will eventually get the whole Triforce in the Child timeline, but not as soon as Link returns to the past. It will happen years later during the true IW.

Edited by Tri-Enforcer, 21 June 2006 - 03:52 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

What I mean is that if Ganon is sealed on the Adult Timeline, he is in the Child Timeline.

So once Ganon is sealed he becomes sealed in the past 7 years earlier? How does that work exactly? Is Ganon in the child timeline suddenly put into the sacred realm because of what hapens in the future? If the sealing of Ganon in the future causes the sealing of Ganon 7 years in the past, wouldn't that also making him sealed 8 years in the past. If Ganon's sealing in the future makes him sealed for all times in the past doesn't that mean that he is sealed in the sacred realm before he is born? And if the sacred realm truly transcends time, Ganon being sealed at any point in time would mean that he would be sealed indefinitely for all times, thus unable to get out?

Fyxe, I find it strange how you can think that anything the game creators say about the timeline is true and will always be true. The fact is that we do not know what the Game creators think today. The quotes you have don't really consider TWW and FSA, so I do not see how they could be accurate.

I don't know why you think that my timeline has no evidence. It works with the canon. The only problems you have wtih it are that it contradicts some old quotes and that it goes against your feeling that two similar(but not identical) must be the same. The only points of yours I have Ignored, have been your arguments with tir-enforcer. I don't see why I need to reply to those when I think OoT was the IW.

This topic's purpose, is to come up with the perfect timeline. I think that the perfect timeline should be single. That is why I am arguing.

Edited by The Zol, 21 June 2006 - 02:09 PM.

[Arturo]

Alright, the Goddesses transcend time and space. The Goddesses made the Seal. Thus the Seal transcends all time and space. By that logic, Link, Zelda, and pretty much the entire universe transcends time and space.

The Seal trascends time because the Goddesess want it to. The rest of the things, no.

QUOTE (Tri-Enforcer)

That's kinda stupid. Why doesn't Ganon just enter the realm once Link pulls the MS as done in OOT? You do realize, that in OOT at least, the MS opens the entrance to the Sacred Realm don't you? And what do you mean by a second time? What, he attacks the castle and leaves after Link pulls the MS, then comes back again? That's totally not the way OOT went. Ganon was waiting on Link to pull the sword, which opened the entrance and gained Ganon access to the Triforce. I'm sorry, but that's the way OOT really happened and I don't see how what you're saying helps to make IW the same as OOT. Maybe I'm missing something here, or you're writing too fast and made some mistakes.


No. In OoT Impa says Ganondorf attacked Hyrule to get the Ocarina of Time. After that, he persecutes Zelda. Then Link opens the entrance by pulling the Master Sword, and Ganondorf enters after him. What I said about him attacking Hyrule by second time to get to the Temple is just an assumption. Think, if Ganondorf is an enemy of the King, could he enter to the Temple without attacking Hyrule? I don't think so. (I hope I have made it clear enough. English is not my mother language)

QUOTE Tri-Enforcer


Ok, I'm thinking you're jumping from concept to concept without properly indicating it, but let me see if I'm understanding what the hell you're talking about. When the king sends the knights to battle Ganon are you saying that Link participates in this battle, then Ganon is sealed? Or is Link somewhere else? Then you jump and say Zelda goes back to Hyrule....uhmmm wasn't Zelda in the final battle in OOT and aren't they already in Hyrule? Are you saying the the Seal War happens afte Link returns to the past? I'm not bothering to rebutt anything you say until you properly indicate where why and how, cuz you're confusing me now.

All these events happen on the Child Hyrule: Link is in the Sacred Realm, sealed by the Master Sword, so he's not in the battle. Ganondorf never goes out of the Sacred Realm, but uses his power to invade Hyrule from the Sacred Realm (do you remember Rauru saying "His evil power radiated from the temples of Hyrule"?). Knights try to fight this evil, but are defeated. After that, he's sealed, because so is he on the Future Timeline. Then, Zelda, who had escaped with Impa (you see it), comes back to the Castle, where she meets Link, who has the ToC on his command. He tells the King all the things that have happened on the Future Timeline, so that the Six Sages might be protected, preventing the Seal from being destroyed.


QUOTE(Tri-Enforcer)

Emmmm, where did you hear me say that Link even returns from Termina? Also, there's a possibility that years may go by before Ganon is able to find another means into the Sacred Realm, and also would've given the sages sufficient time to grow into their roles. Also,' it's not the hero who necessarily awakens the sages, it really the cry of a voice from the Sacred Realm that awakens them...that's actually stated in OOT by the way. The reason Link had to awaken them was because Ganon had the sages in captivity and they couldn't hear the voice in that state.

I know this. Because of this, I think that the Sages are awakened on the Child Timeline, even though Link doiesn't awaken them. Do you remember both Saria and Impa? They both knew they were Sages before Link awakens them. For why OI think you are not right, see below. P.S. It's implied on MM ending that Link goes back to Hyrule
QUOTE
(Tri-Enforcer)

How would that confirm your theory that Ganon has the ToC if Link doesn't have it when he returns to the past? When Link goes back in time...everything is as is. Ganon is still around and the Triforce is still within the Sacred Realm...only this time around Link DOES NOT pull the Master Sword, preventing Ganon from entering, at least for the time being--that's quite simple. Makes more sense than the seal or Triforce transcending time. Then, years later (and after Link does not return from Termina), the true events of the IW begin to unfold as described in aLttP. What's wrong with things happening that way? It's simple and flows nicely into aLttP. So yes, Ganon will eventually get the whole Triforce in the Child timeline, but not as soon as Link returns to the past. It will happen years later during the true IW.


No way. There's a small detail you have overlooked. When Link goes back to the past in OoT, he actually meets Child Zelda. If Zelda is in the Castle, it means that there's no danger (do you remember them escaping from Ganon?) i. e. Ganon is not around anymore. He's been sealed. That was the Seal War.


I hope I have said it clear enough, but if there's anything you haven't understood about my thougths, just ask me, and I will answer.

Edited by Arturo, 21 June 2006 - 02:39 PM.

[Tri-Enforcer]

----

Edited by Tri-Enforcer, 21 June 2006 - 03:51 PM.

[Tri-Enforcer]

No. In OoT Impa says Ganondorf attacked Hyrule to get the Ocarina of Time. After that, he persecutes Zelda. Then Link opens the entrance by pulling the Master Sword, and Ganondorf enters after him. What I said about him attacking Hyrule by second time to get to the Temple is just an assumption. Think, if Ganondorf is an enemy of the King, could he enter to the Temple without attacking Hyrule? I don't think so. (I hope I have made it clear enough. English is not my mother language)

Ok I see what you mean there. Going on....

All these events happen on the Child Hyrule: Link is in the Sacred Realm, sealed by the Master Sword, so he's not in the battle. Ganondorf never goes out of the Sacred Realm, but uses his power to invade Hyrule from the Sacred Realm (do you remember Rauru saying "His evil power radiated from the temples of Hyrule"?). Knights try to fight this evil, but are defeated. After that, he's sealed, because so is he on the Future Timeline. Then, Zelda, who had escaped with Impa (you see it), comes back to the Castle, where she meets Link, who has the ToC on his command. He tells the King all the things that have happened on the Future Timeline, so that the Six Sages might be protected, preventing the Seal from being destroyed.

From the way this sounds, Ganon was sealed just as soon as Link was encased in the Sacred Realm after pulling the MS. I don't see the Imprisoning War happening in such a short time frame. Heck...that doesn't sound like much of a war. Also, it clearly states in the IW story that the knights defended the sages while they sealed the entrance--not some time anamoly caused by sages in an alternate future.

I know this. Because of this, I think that the Sages are awakened on the Child Timeline, even though Link doiesn't awaken them. Do you remember both Saria and Impa? They both knew they were Sages before Link awakens them. For why OI think you are not right, see below. P.S. It's implied on MM ending that Link goes back to Hyrule

Well we're still not clear whether Link returns or not.

No way. There's a small detail you have overlooked. When Link goes back to the past in OoT, he actually meets Child Zelda. If Zelda is in the Castle, it means that there's no danger (do you remember them escaping from Ganon?) i. e. Ganon is not around anymore. He's been sealed. That was the Seal War.

Actually we don't know at what point in time Link goes back to. I always thought Link went back prior to their first meeting in the court yard--before Ganon ever attacked, that's why it looked peaceful. We don't know exactly what point he goes back to, considering he was sent back not via the MS but rather by Zelda playing the Ocarina.

[Fyxe]

We do know exactly when Link goes back, Tri-Enforcer. Zelda orders him to put the Master Sword back in the Pedestal of Time and close the Door of Time. If the door is open and the sword is drawn, then it must be after Link has opened the door and drawn the sword, obviously. Also, that would be after Ganondorf enters.

Ok, Fyxe. Then, the IW and OoT can be the same in a split or gaiden timeline, because it is what the creators intended and it wroks nicely following Arturo's theory. However, there are a lot of problems with that if you use a single, so they are separate in a single timeline because TWW, the IW and OoT must be in the same timeline. So it depends on how you connect the games. Do you agree?

To an extent, yes, a single timeline makes it harder to place OoT and the IW as the same event. *However*... I do not conceed that a single timeline requires OoT and IW to be seperate events. There are FLAWS with this, just as there are flaws with other theories, and I do not see Zol of Tri-Enforcer trying to address these flaws. They argue that it makes no sense that Link seemingly vanished from history of ALttP, yet they also argue that the IW vanishes from the history of OoT or that OoT vanishes from the history of ALttP. I'd say these are far larger problems.

I would also mention that I do not really agree with Artuno's form of events, there are flaws I can see there (I do not believe Ganon was sealed in both the past and the future, that's a fanfic explaination if you ask me), but some of it is right.

That's the way I thought of it as well, Zol. Mentioning 'the Hero' or 'Master Sword' in the introduction helps set up aLttP and what it's about. If a hero existed, then he'd certainly be glorified and remembered if he were successful.

While I agree that the mention of the Master Sword was foreshadowing, OoT was an attempt to give some focus for that foreshadowing.

Instead it's the Knights and Sages who were remembered and glorified.

It makes reasonable sense that the legend would come to imagine an army of knights rather than one man. If it was known that some soldiers died fighting Ganon and also known that Ganon was defeated, for the generations ahead it would make more sense that these two events were linked, rather than the idea that some hero appeared froim nothing and then vanished into nothing. With the Master Sword remaining in the Pedestal of Time and the Door of Time once more closed, only the royal family and a few select individuals would necessarily know the whole truth. The population of Hyrule would be more inclined to glorify their own troops than one faceless hero that the royal family obsess about. Stories change over time, and the creators of OoT always knew they had that to fall back on when they were working with the IW story.

If you look at the intro to TWW or even the Minish Cap...the 'hero' of that time period is remembered for saving the day. Why wouldn't 'the hero' be remembered in the aLttP intro if he appeared in the intro to those games? That just doesn't make sense to me.

I see ALttP happening much, much further into the future than TWW does. Also, I expect this story was mainly believed by the royal family, while much of the population thought of it as a silly legend or tradition. Historically, they would be more inclined to believe in an army, *especially* when a hero never reappeared.

From what Rauru and Shiek had to say, it's greatly implied that all they've done during those 7 years was either hiding or running from Ganon. So yeah they did something--they got little.

Yes, I don't doubt that, but during that time they probably kept their eyes open for an alternate option. Nobody could stand seven years of waiting without doing anything to look for an alternative, especially not people with the lofty desires of Zelda and Rauru.

Oh that's really nice how you just blow off what we see in the TWW...how convenient for what YOU WANT to believe.

Like I said, the mark is on and off depending on cutscene or gameplay. For both Link and Ganon. It's clearly a graphical oversight.

During the brief time he's in Hyrule and with Zelda...I don't see any mark on Link. Now what? Lets here all the fanfic explanations on this.

Firstly, the mark isn't always there. We KNOW that it isn't always there. He has the ToC throughout OoT and it only shows up on his hand a few times, notably when he is near someone who also has a piece, but even then, not at every single moment. Finally, I don't remember ever seeing a shot of both Link and Zelda in the flashbacks. You just see Zelda talking to the camera.

[Hero of Slime]

They argue that it makes no sense that Link seemingly vanished from history of ALttP, yet they also argue that the IW vanishes from the history of OoT or that OoT vanishes from the history of ALttP. I'd say these are far larger problems.

What? I never said that anything vanished from history. Tri-Enforcer and I have different positions. Tri-Enforcer seems to think OoT has never been the IW.

[Fyxe]

Blargg. I think everyone should set out their own positions before they argue against other positions. Else it gets very confusing.

Also, they should be somewhat concise when setting out their theories, because a lot of theories can get a bit long-winded.

[Hero of Slime]

We should go back to posting Timelines in signatures.

[Arturo]

So once Ganon is sealed he becomes sealed in the past 7 years earlier? How does that work exactly? Is Ganon in the child timeline suddenly put into the sacred realm because of what hapens in the future? If the sealing of Ganon in the future causes the sealing of Ganon 7 years in the past, wouldn't that also making him sealed 8 years in the past. If Ganon's sealing in the future makes him sealed for all times in the past doesn't that mean that he is sealed in the sacred realm before he is born? And if the sacred realm truly transcends time, Ganon being sealed at any point in time would mean that he would be sealed indefinitely for all times, thus unable to get out?

No, that's not the way it's suppossed to be. Imagine that we're not dealing with time, but with parallel universes. The so-called time travel is more like a travel between universes. What Link does on the Child Timeline after he gets the MS, doesn't affect the Adult one (except for things like Magic Beans, that's a gameplay thing) i.e. it doesn't matter whether Link dries the well in the past, it's already like that in the future.. Well, we count time since Link draws the MS in Child Universe, and since Link wakes up in the Adult Universe. Let's say this is the moment 0 of both universes. Well, if the Sages seal Ganon in the moment x of the Adult Universe, so is he in the Child Timeline, in the exact moment, that is, x time after Link gets the MS.

Yes, it's not logical. But it's the only possible exaplanaton.

This topic's purpose, is to come up with the perfect timeline. I think that the perfect timeline should be single. That is why I am arguing.

If we consider the IW to be OoT, there's no possible way for the timeline being single. So, the perfect timeline must be split.

From the way this sounds, Ganon was sealed just as soon as Link was encased in the Sacred Realm after pulling the MS. I don't see the Imprisoning War happening in such a short time frame. Heck...that doesn't sound like much of a war. Also, it clearly states in the IW story that the knights defended the sages while they sealed the entrance--not some time anamoly caused by sages in an alternate future.

Imagine, for a time, you were the King of Hyrule. You don't know what to do, since the evil of Ganon is spreading across Hyrule (though Ganon still is in the Sacred Realm). You make the Knights fight this evil, but they are nearly exterminated. Suddenly, Ganon is sealed and evil stops. Everything has finished. The Princess and Impa return to the Castle. Then a child comes with the ToC in his hand and says that the evil has been sealed by the seven Sages. You localyze the Sages, who awaken by themselves. What would you tell to the survivors of the knights? That their lives were lost for nothing? NO, you would telll them that they helped defending the Sages, so that they might seal the source of evil (in the ALttP manual it says nothing about Ganon being sealed, but his malice). And about the time for the war... it was not that short, the same time Link spends in sealing Ganon in the future.

Actually we don't know at what point in time Link goes back to. I always thought Link went back prior to their first meeting in the court yard--before Ganon ever attacked, that's why it looked peaceful. We don't know exactly what point he goes back to, considering he was sent back not via the MS but rather by Zelda playing the Ocarina.

Fyxe has made a good point on this.

Edited by Arturo, 22 June 2006 - 07:17 AM.

[Fyxe]

This whole argument reminds me a lot of one thing...

Bilbical literalism and inerrancy. Some of you are arguing that the Imprisoning War story is completely infallible, in much the same way that Biblical literalism does. However, I argue that this is impossible - the creators designed OoT to be the Imprisoning War, this much we know. Therefore if any minor inaccuracies in ALttP are unimportant to the game designers, then who are we to question them?

So, as an example, and I like examples... God comes down from on high, very noticably for once, and tells everyone 'uh, you know that Adam and Eve story you have in the Bible? Yeah, it's not really the whole story. Here's *exactly* what happened', and he gives them the new story. But in the new story, it turns out Adam ate the apple first, and thus Biblical literalists go up in arms and claim that that affects the entire concept of 'original sin' and therefore this story must be about *another*, seperate Garden of Eden, no matter how illogical that idea is.

I am resisting from pointing out flaws in Artuno's theory though, because it certainly doesn't mesh with my concept of a split timeline, but my earlier posts in this topic cover all that.

We should go back to posting Timelines in signatures.

I've never found that particularly useful. Partly because I have signatures turned off, but also because just having an order doesn't explain how the order works. Hell, I don't even HAVE an order. I have never limited myself to one timeline idea, because that simply leads to people arguing their timeline for the sake of arguing.